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In the Name of God بسم الله

Would you STILL worship God IF... Be Honest!

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  • Advanced Member
On 10/23/2020 at 6:41 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and ....

 

If I was imortal and there were no consequences I assume I'd not have to put any effort into anything either. As anything that requires hard work has consequences of not putting in the hard work.

This would be a horrendous ground hog day type of existence. I'd pray to Allah to take my life.

If I didn't have any feelings as I do now in this mortal exsistance and I was always in bliss with this situation. I've probably obtained paradise. So it's all good. 

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I don't worship Allah because of fear of hell. I worship Him because it brings peace and baraka to my life, it makes me feel safe knowing that I have sought help and refuge from a God that has control

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I understand  but just to show you where I come from, I was talking about this with a friend and this is what happened...

Me:
So here's the argument: what we KNOW is, is reality. That there is reality. If there were two realities, ultimately they would be one.
Reality, therefore is absolute and we are its products because we are not absolute
Like waves compared to the ocean...

Friend:
You mean like Descartes? I think, therefore I am? (I denke, also bin ich)...But a tree is falling down, if you know it or not...So there could be more than one reality...

Me:
Yeah basically...
But multiple realities are ultimately a reality too right?
So, we can conclude that:
the ultimate reality= God
And multiple realities= everything else


Friend:
Multiple realities could be just one,when you are god, since you had to be able to process them all and that is impossible for a human being. Our brain filters literally what we notice...

.

.

What do you think of this?

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Everything else is a belief about who I AM.  I was born, I will die, I am limited, I know only this and that, I am one of many I and.  I am beautiful, I am ugly.  Etc etc.  all these descriptions or ideas or thoughts, are simply thoughts you have believed in about who you ARE.  But just stick to what is known for certain or what is directly known for certain.  

Didn’t Jesus ((عليه السلام)) say this (“I am”)? Did any of our Imams (عليه السلام) or Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) say it?

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11 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Didn’t Jesus ((عليه السلام)) say this (“I am”)? Did any of our Imams (عليه السلام) or Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) say it?

So, In the Bible, Moses asks God how to best describe Him to his people since they are asking for a description ..  and God tells Him to say... I AM that I AM.  Or something to that effect.

So, this is God speaking.  Only God has the right to say I AM.  

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20 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

I understand  but just to show you where I come from, I was talking about this with a friend and this is what happened...

Me:
So here's the argument: what we KNOW is, is reality. That there is reality. If there were two realities, ultimately they would be one.
Reality, therefore is absolute and we are its products because we are not absolute
Like waves compared to the ocean...

Friend:
You mean like Descartes? I think, therefore I am? (I denke, also bin ich)...But a tree is falling down, if you know it or not...So there could be more than one reality...

Me:
Yeah basically...
But multiple realities are ultimately a reality too right?
So, we can conclude that:
the ultimate reality= God
And multiple realities= everything else


Friend:
Multiple realities could be just one,when you are god, since you had to be able to process them all and that is impossible for a human being. Our brain filters literally what we notice...

.

.

What do you think of this?

Alright, interesting.  I’ll give my take on this soon (iA).  

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30 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So, In the Bible, Moses asks God how to best describe Him to his people since they are asking for a description ..  and God tells Him to say... I AM that I AM.  Or something to that effect.

So, this is God speaking.  Only God has the right to say I AM.  

Jesus also said “before Abraham was, I am”

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20 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Jesus also said “before Abraham was, I am”

Yes.   True.

i never heard of anything like “I am” in the Islamic traditions.  But when the Prophet (S) says, He was before Adam was between earth and water”,  this is sometimes compared with the statement of Jesus “before Abraham was, I am”. 
Or the sayings of the Imams “we are the names of God”...(and by inference that also includes the All encompassing name, Allah).  
 

in any case, such statements (If they were to made explicit) would be largely misunderstood.   Most people don’t seem to be able to understand it.  We already can see Ghullatis, imagine what they would think if they came across such explicit phrases?  

 

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On 11/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Justsomeone said:

I understand  but just to show you where I come from, I was talking about this with a friend and this is what happened...

Me:
So here's the argument: what we KNOW is, is reality. That there is reality. If there were two realities, ultimately they would be one.
Reality, therefore is absolute and we are its products because we are not absolute
Like waves compared to the ocean...
 

Right.  

On 11/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Justsomeone said:

Friend:
You mean like Descartes? I think, therefore I am? (I denke, also bin ich)...But a tree is falling down, if you know it or not...So there could be more than one reality...

This is a very important part:

As this is an assumption he is making: Namely that an external (beyond mental) world exists.  How does he know that it cannot be perceived? How does he know that there are things he does not perceive?  Also, when you perceive a tree in front of you, are you perceiving a tree that exists completely independent of your perception of it?  These, I believe, are very important questions.  

On 11/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Justsomeone said:


Me:
Yeah basically...
But multiple realities are ultimately a reality too right?
So, we can conclude that:
the ultimate reality= God
And multiple realities= everything else

So ultimate reality is like the sum of all parts?  Is God made of parts?   How do you answer this question?

 

On 11/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Justsomeone said:


Friend:
Multiple realities could be just one,when you are god, since you had to be able to process them all and that is impossible for a human being. Our brain filters literally what we notice...

.
 

So is ultimate reality (God) made up of all smaller realities?  

On 11/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, Justsomeone said:

.

What do you think of this?

 

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Right.  

This is a very important part:

As this is an assumption he is making: Namely that an external (beyond mental) world exists.  How does he know that it cannot be perceived? How does he know that there are things he does not perceive?  Also, when you perceive a tree in front of you, are you perceiving a tree that exists completely independent of your perception of it?  These, I believe, are very important questions.  

So ultimate reality is like the sum of all parts?  Is God made of parts?   How do you answer this question?

 

So is ultimate reality (God) made up of all smaller realities?  

 

Meh... who knows... it's complicated and I don't think it can ever be explained with words. But I'm at peace now since I know there IS God or ultimate reality or whatever it's called.

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On 11/6/2020 at 2:47 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Jesus also said “before Abraham was, I am”

I feel that this is one of the most powerful and challenging statements of Jesus.

Not only is he using the name of God for himself, he is also claiming an eternal existance.  He uses a gramatical inconsitancy to afirm his eternal "I AM"ness.  God who is the source of all being and the only one who has eternally existed can say I AM that I AM.

This is one reason why I worship in the Christian tradition, I worship and serve God who has always been, and will always be, and yet in some unfathomable way became a being on this earth.  God did all this for his people.  He is worthy of worship, and service.

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On 10/23/2020 at 1:41 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc.  

Because I, as a proud Atheist, cannot honestly imagine why anyone would worship a God if there was no Hell consequence and if everything already is like a virtual paradise.   Just be honest with yourself before replying.  Be a bit introspective and then reply please.  

Thank you!!!!

 

Yes, because Allah would still be able to take away my life in a heartbeat. Think about the angels? 

Even if lets say I have that privilege should I not show my gratitude to the one who bestowed that to me?

 

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According to his hadith, as well as other evidence, it is sometimes acceptable to coerce people, even physically, into Islam so as to spare them suffering in the Hereafter. To me, the use of threats and violence, in human terms, normally implies a need to be worshipped. In this case, Prophet Solomon used methods similar to those wielded by unbelievers, that is, military might, but did so, per the narration, for a good cause, that is, the rule of Islam. According to the narration, he did so prior to explaining what Islam is: he first threatened the ruler of Saba with a mighty army, so as to better facilitate her reversion into Islam (submission). The Catholic Church, like other religious institutions, utilised similar justifications for the Inquisition and cases of forced conversion in general: to save the heretic or infidel’s soul. In other words, “the end justifies the means”—except the reward is spiritual, not (merely) material. This raises the question: if Allah does not need to be worshipped, being Himself Needless, then is the use of coercion to subdue unbelief merely a matter of statecraft, to secure the public rule/order of Islam?

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On 1/18/2021 at 6:00 AM, Northwest said:

According to his hadith, as well as other evidence, it is sometimes acceptable to coerce people, even physically, into Islam so as to spare them suffering in the Hereafter.

Quran: “There is no compulsion in religion” 

Thus the hadith is probably unacceptable/rejected, or misinterpreted. There are established "war" criteria such as not to be the aggressor, if the enemy wants peace to accept peace rather than go to war, etc.

Thus I don't think it was a threat of sending the army to slaughter a nation or force them to submission. Perhaps it had other meaning, such as showing the various armies the Prophet had under his command, by Allah's permission, where there are not only humans but jinn and other creatures as well, if the queen took that as a threat then she would have been surprised at the lack of aggression after witnessing such a grand army I imagine.
If it was a threat in the sense you think, then what does it matter if it is not acted upon, so even then the people of Saba did not actually face the threat of death as you seem to suggest.

Also, if she was coming to embrace Islam as the hadith suggests, there would be no need to bring forth the throne if you are going to force someone into Islam anyway. There is no need to invite her into the castle, etc.

Bottom line, the notion of forcing people into religion through death is nonsense, and defeats the purpose of the test on earth. And if, IF, a verbal threat is uttered and that is sufficient to make a person "revert", and they end up truly believing, there shouldn't be an issue there, however if they were "forced" into it, then Allah knows best what lies in their hearts and that they are not true believers, and again defeats the whole purpose; in such a case it would've been easy for Allah to force everyone to submit without having to go through the test of time.

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