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In the Name of God بسم الله

Would you STILL worship God IF... Be Honest!

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1 hour ago, Justsomeone said:

I think he has a point though... but I'd like to know your perception too

ln short:

--there is no "duality" in lsIam

--Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is not a "true Self" as He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). created the nafs.

--We cannot "purify" ourselfs, as Quran reveals only Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can do that. 

-- Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also not a nafs , as the poster is being redundant

-- Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is not a person

--people are limited

The post is a circular mess designed to talk in circles.

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First off, I wouldn't want eternal life on this earth. I see too much sorrow and misery in it and I can't imagine it carrying on forever, having to feel that pain as everyone I know dies and yet I rem

@313_Waiter@notme@Cool@al-Muttaqin@khamosh21@Northwest@Shahrukh K@shia farm girl So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality bet

I don't worship Allah because of fear of hell. I worship Him because it brings peace and baraka to my life, it makes me feel safe knowing that I have sought help and refuge from a God that has control

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3 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

Yeah I agree with you on that. Imam Ali also says: "he is one but not in counting"

Then, what do you think is the role of worship (prayer to be specific) in this context?

Exactly... just as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says.  
 

Worship is Self-discovery, Self-knowing.  The outward laws and rites (Sharia) facilitate this Self-Knowing.

It is like the Hadith the Qudsi where God says:

”I am the sight by which my servant (worshippper / abd) (whom I love) sees, the grasping by which my servant (whom I love) grasps, etc etc”.  

To truly and sincerely worship is to understand who you really are.  

According to Ibn Abbas (ra):

Ya’budun (servitude or worship) = ya’rifun (knowing / understanding of your essential Self)
 

 

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

ln short:

--there is no "duality" in lsIam

Paradise & Hell

Mercy & Wrath

Heaven & Earth

Day & Night

...?  

 

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

--Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is not a "true Self" as He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). created the nafs.
 

so when God says:

Kataba Ala Nafsihi Rahma

He has compelled Mercy upon His Self.

you mean that God doesn’t have a true Self?  Really?  

 

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

--We cannot "purify" ourselfs, as Quran reveals only Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can do that. 
 

we actually agree on something.  

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

- Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also not a nafs , as the poster is being redundant

So, perhaps you should tell God He doesn’t know what He is talking about??? It is in the Quran you read... right?  

 

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

-- Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is not a person

 

yes!  

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

--people are limited

yes!

 

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

The post is a circular mess designed to talk in circles.

You are entitled to your opinion.  

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29 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Paradise & Hell

Mercy & Wrath

Heaven & Earth

Day & Night

...?  

Salam, isn’t hell just a lack of the element of paradise,

isn’t wrath just a lack of mercy,

isn’t night just a lack of day,

isn’t cold just a lack of heat,

isn’t evil just a lack of good, where good is that which brings you closer to Pure Being?
Where is the duality!

Is not all a manifestation of Pure Being?

Edited by 313_Waiter
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Ok so here's my interpretation:

Allah is the ultimate reality, the absolute. We are just product of this reality. 

Everything in this world works according to his command. Human beings have free will (which I don't know why) and have been given commands on how to live our life...

We pray to acknowledge the eternal, the absolute. And to acknowledge of our insignificance. 

(So in other words, what you call self is the ultimate reality that is God... right?)

We've been given guides and the Quran because that is our nature (as a social animal who can write and read). 

We are told of God in most simple of forms that is God is one to the most complexity of it. 

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17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Paradise & Hell

Mercy & Wrath

Heaven & Earth

Day & Night

These are opposites.

"Duality" is simultaneous like 'ambivalence.'

17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

He has compelled Mercy upon His Self.

l figure you are refering to Ayat 6:12, and from less than scholastic translations you can add 4:17.  But, this mercy is defined at Ayat 6:54 -which correlates with 4:14- in better translations and how it is applied (see: corpus.quran); and Himself and from another speaker Yourself are grammatical constructions. "Self" here is used as a mental-direction of reference for us because Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). fills everything in Heaven and Earth.

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6 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salam, isn’t hell just a lack of the element of paradise,

isn’t wrath just a lack of mercy,

isn’t night just a lack of day,

isn’t cold just a lack of heat,

isn’t evil just a lack of good, where good is that which brings you closer to Pure Being?
Where is the duality!

Is not all a manifestation of Pure Being?

so, is manifestation a lack of (God) Pure Being?

Edited by eThErEaL
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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

These are opposites.

"Duality" is simultaneous like 'ambivalence.'

 

dual means two.  There can be two of anything including Two of opposite complimentary pairs.  It seems like you are just arguing for the sake of it.  

6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l figure you are refering to Ayat 6:12, and from less than scholastic translations you can add 4:17.  But, this mercy is defined at Ayat 6:54 -which correlates with 4:14- in better translations and how it is applied (see: corpus.quran); and Himself and from another speaker Yourself are grammatical constructions. "Self" here is used as a mental-direction of reference for us because Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). fills everything in Heaven and Earth.

 

when you refer to your nafs, do you refer to other than who you are?

similarly when God refers to His Self, He is not referring to other than who He is. 

 

When God says His Self He means His Self.  

A=A

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10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

so, is manifestation a lack of (God) Pure Being?

It is nothing like Pure Being, wholly dependent on Pure Being, but not completely separate from Pure Being. So, in a way it could be, I guess. 

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Some related verses:

[Shakir 35:19] And the blind and the seeing are not alike
[Shakir 35:20] Nor the darkness and the light,
[Shakir 35:21] Nor the shade and the heat,
[Shakir 35:22] Neither are the living and the dead alike. Surely Allah makes whom He pleases hear, and you cannot make those hear who are m the graves.

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@eThErEaL

I actually came up with an analogy to explain this... somewhat...

looking in terms of number God or the ultimate reality would be infinity and we would be numbers like 1 or 2... Individual numbers are only a product of what is inherently infinite.

Those numbers that are subject to limitations and rules and don't affect infinity...

40 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Don’t you find that problematic?  How can there be “a lack of God”?

I guess this kinda solves this right...? The number 1 isn't infinite yet not being infinite doesn't take anything away from infinity. 

It's not the best comparison but... oh well..

What do you think?

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4 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

@eThErEaL

I actually came up with an analogy to explain this... somewhat...

looking in terms of number God or the ultimate reality would be infinity and we would be numbers like 1 or 2... Individual numbers are only a product of what is inherently infinite.

Those numbers that are subject to limitations and rules and don't affect infinity...

I guess this kinda solves this right...? The number 1 isn't infinite yet not being infinite doesn't take anything away from infinity. 

It's not the best comparison but... oh well..

What do you think?

It makes sense (it helps).

there are many other analogies that are often used like the waves in relation to an ocean.  The waves that appear and then disappear are entirely dependent on the Ocean while the Ocean is wholly independent of the waves. The waves are paradoxically:

1) not other than the Ocean

and are also

2) not the Ocean.  

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23 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salam, isn’t hell just a lack of the element of paradise,

isn’t wrath just a lack of mercy,

isn’t night just a lack of day,

isn’t cold just a lack of heat,

isn’t evil just a lack of good, where good is that which brings you closer to Pure Being?
Where is the duality!

Is not all a manifestation of Pure Being?

So getting back to your comment:

these are examples of dualities (in the above quoted post from you).  

Another duality (by the way) is "lack" in relation to "fullness".

Therefore you can add another line above by saying: "isn't lack just the lack of fullness"?

I would say yes!  Just as fullness is just the fullness of lack / emptiness!

Point here being that just as in all dualities, these dualistic pair co-exists and are co-dependent on each other.

Now dualities (and our world is entirely dualistic) are indeed JUST an illusion.  True!

But illusions are really illusions!  ARE THEY NOT?

Therefore the Illusion (of duality) is real.

And the reason why it is real is because it is not other than Ultimate Reality or Pure Being. 

Pure Being (Non-Duality) is not itself ONE OF TWO.  Non-duality does not stand opposed to duality.  Non-duality and duality are, themselves, not supposed to be understood as dualities. 

    

  

 

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Point here being that just as in all dualities, these dualistic pair co-exists and are co-dependent on each other

But do dualities really exist or is everything goodness, mercy, light and heat (where nothing is really evil, wrath, dark and cold). It’s just lack of the former qualities so we attribute a name to it

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1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

But do dualities really exist or is everything goodness, mercy, light and heat (where nothing is really evil, wrath, dark and cold). It’s just lack of the former qualities so we attribute a name to it

Duality is an illusion. Do illusions really exist?

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On 10/28/2020 at 12:32 PM, eThErEaL said:

It is mentioned in the Quran that God makes those who forget Him to forget themselves.  

Salam,

Please can you provide reference of this verse.

On 10/28/2020 at 12:32 PM, eThErEaL said:

So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality between worshipper and worshipped, then such a worship is tainted more or less with insincerity (hidden shirk, or shirk khafiyy  - a shirk that is so subtle that it is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night).

What if God is worshipped by separate but dependent (created/individual) self? There will remain a duality.

And to counter that duality, the mind of the worshipper remains focussed on the One True Self on which everything depends. 

The problem is that we have to maintain the limit (of duality).

We cannot simply ignore the facts that God is Mowla and we are Abd, He is Al-Haye and we are Maiyyet, He is Rabb and we are Marboob, He is Razzaq and we are Mazooq etc. 

None of us could dare to cross this limit. Or can we? @eThErEaL

 

 

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14 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam,

Please can you provide reference of this verse.

And do not be as (the ones) who forgot Allah, so He caused them to forget their selves; those are they who are the immoral.

59-19

Quote

What if God is worshipped by separate but dependent (created/individual) self? There will remain a duality.. 
 


@Justsomeone

Separate means autonomous and independent to some extent.  True ubudiyya (servitude) is that you let go of and surrender your supposed separate identity, Your apparent autonomy.  The most sincere ABID (worshipper) is when when there is the recognition that there is no separate ABID (Worshipper) and that the ABID is none other than the MABUD (Worshipped) just as in the case of sand castle, there is no castle that is separate or independent from the substance of sand.  

Quote

And to counter that duality, the mind of the worshipper remains focussed on the One True Self on which everything depends. 

I am not recommending you start calling yourself God and you stop praying.  Not at all.  But when you take what it means to be a slave, servant, worshipper to its ultimate conclusion, you are left with the fact that the ABID and the MABUD are one.  

Quote

The problem is that we have to maintain the limit (of duality).

We cannot simply ignore the facts that God is Mowla and we are Abd, He is Al-Haye and we are Maiyyet, He is Rabb and we are Marboob, He is Razzaq and we are Mazooq etc. 
 

I wouldn’t ignore that at all.  It actually has more meaning in light of what I am actually trying to convey.  

Quote

None of us could dare to cross this limit. Or can we? @eThErEaL

 

when you say, none of “us”..  you are talking about beings that appear to have their separate identities and feel as if they are separate individuals.  So by definition,  a separate being cannot see itself as not-separate.  

It goes back to “WHO” is asking the question.  Is it a separate being or a non-separate being?

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58 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

And do not be as (the ones) who forgot Allah, so He caused them to forget their selves; those are they who are the immoral.

59-19


@Justsomeone

Separate means autonomous and independent to some extent.  True ubudiyya (servitude) is that you let go of and surrender your supposed separate identity, Your apparent autonomy.  The most sincere ABID (worshipper) is when when there is the recognition that there is no separate ABID (Worshipper) and that the ABID is none other than the MABUD (Worshipped) just as in the case of sand castle, there is no castle that is separate or independent from the substance of sand.  

I am not recommending you start calling yourself God and you stop praying.  Not at all.  But when you take what it means to be a slave, servant, worshipper to its ultimate conclusion, you are left with the fact that the ABID and the MABUD are one.  

I wouldn’t ignore that at all.  It actually has more meaning in light of what I am actually trying to convey.  

when you say, none of “us”..  you are talking about beings that appear to have their separate identities and feel as if they are separate individuals.  So by definition,  a separate being cannot see itself as not-separate.  

It goes back to “WHO” is asking the question.  Is it a separate being or a non-separate being?

I agree with you. Although I think it could be highly misunderstood....

What I am wondering is that why would one want to let go of yourself? I love myself (the seperate self) so why woupd I want to discard it?

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2 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

They don’t exist as the illusion

@313_Waiter
So “it” exists (But not in an illusory way)?

What does “it” refer to?  Duality?  

you know...

There is nothing wrong with saying that the illusion really exists as illusion.  But what is wrong is to be deluded by the illusion thereby seeing the illusion as non-illusory.  
 

the illusion is great!  It is a masterpiece!  It is amazing!  

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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So, they exist (except that they are not illusions)?

I guess. I mean if they’re illusions then the illusion itself does not exist but something else exists which is the reality.

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15 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

I agree with you. Although I think it could be highly misunderstood....

What I am wondering is that why would one want to let go of yourself? I love myself (the seperate self) so why woupd I want to discard it?

We believe that we love our separate self because we believe we are that separate self but in fact what we love is our true Self (mistaken for a separate self).

for example:

“I am John, I was born in the US.  I will one day die.  I am thin and beautiful, or fat and ugly....I am rich or I am poor...I am a father and a brother to such and such.  I am 6” tall...I am located currently in this location.  Etc etc.

look at all the descriptions and modes superimposed upon the “I am”.   These are merely beliefs about who you are.  Associations.  But they are not really who you are.  You are simply “I AM”.  You are simply that which is aware of these different descriptions.  You are not your body or a soul or any entity so long as you are AWARE of it.  You cannot be the very object of your own awareness.  So, if you are aware of your body, you are by that very fact, not your body.  If you are aware of the past and the future, you are by that very fact not time bound.  If you are aware of space, you are by that very fact not bound by space.  

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13 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

We believe that we love our separate self because we believe we are that separate self but in fact what we love is our true Self (mistaken for a separate self).

for example:

“I am John, I was born in the US.  I will one day die.  I am thin and beautiful, or fat and ugly....I am rich or I am poor...I am a father and a brother to such and such.  I am 6” tall...I am located currently in this location.  Etc etc.

look at all the descriptions and modes superimposed upon the “I am”.   These are merely beliefs about who you are.  Associations.  But they are not really who you are.  You are simply “I AM”.  You are simply that which is aware of these different descriptions.  You are not your body or a soul or any entity so long as you are AWARE of it.  You cannot be the very object of your own awareness.  So, if you are aware of your body, you are by that very fact, not your body.  If you are aware of the past and the future, you are by that very fact not time bound.  If you are aware of space, you are by that very fact not bound by space.  

But then you become aware of your am, so you yourself become an object of awareness and you won't be... but yet you are therfore you can be aware of your own self so you can be john the time-space bound one...

I don't understand...

 

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17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

But when you take what it means to be a slave, servant, worshipper to its ultimate conclusion, you are left with the fact that the ABID and the MABUD are one.  

One in what sense? 

These are two things (1) Abid. (2) Ma'bud. 

Lets take it into depth.  A true slave do only that what has been commanded by his Master. He may also wills only that what his Master wills. So the conclusion you are drawing "Slave & Master are one" must have a specific sense. 

 

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On 11/1/2020 at 11:35 AM, eThErEaL said:

We believe that we love our separate self because we believe we are that separate self but in fact what we love is our true Self (mistaken for a separate self).

for example:

“I am John, I was born in the US.  I will one day die.  I am thin and beautiful, or fat and ugly....I am rich or I am poor...I am a father and a brother to such and such.  I am 6” tall...I am located currently in this location.  Etc etc.

look at all the descriptions and modes superimposed upon the “I am”.   These are merely beliefs about who you are.  Associations.  But they are not really who you are.  You are simply “I AM”.  You are simply that which is aware of these different descriptions.  You are not your body or a soul or any entity so long as you are AWARE of it.  You cannot be the very object of your own awareness.  So, if you are aware of your body, you are by that very fact, not your body.  If you are aware of the past and the future, you are by that very fact not time bound.  If you are aware of space, you are by that very fact not bound by space.  

Excellent. This is Upanishad.

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

One in what sense? 
 

in the sense that they were never two.  
One = Not Two (Non-dual)

One does not mean that two things become one.  It means that there were never two separate things to begin with.  

Quote

These are two things (1) Abid. (2) Ma'bud. 

Cold and Heat are conceptually two things.  Similarly, A’bid and Ma’bud are, in concept alone, two things.  

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Lets take it into depth.  A true slave do only that what has been commanded by his Master. He may also wills only that what his Master wills. So the conclusion you are drawing "Slave & Master are one" must have a specific sense. 

Each thought (for example) belongs to God.  Never did it belong to a separate self (that we like to call “a thinker”).  That there is a separate thinker that thinks it’s own thoughts, is itself nothing but a thought that belongs to God (in other words, it doesn’t belong to me as a separate person, or you as a separate person), it (each and every thought) belongs to God alone (as everything does) (Huwal Malikul Mulk).

Your freedom is in giving up your belief of yourself as a separate-self.  Your freedom is the degree to which you see your Self as Self.

But almost all of us (including myself) believe we are separate (at least most of the time).  So, we have the Shariah that gradually purifies us at the level of our bodies, our movements, all the way to our psyche, our patterns of thinking, our ways of behaving so that we can eventually find it easier to be aligned to our primordial knowing (aka Fitrah) of what was always Real and what was always Illusory

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On 10/23/2020 at 1:41 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc.  

Because I, as a proud Atheist, cannot honestly imagine why anyone would worship a God if there was no Hell consequence and if everything already is like a virtual paradise.   Just be honest with yourself before replying.  Be a bit introspective and then reply please.  

Thank you!!!!

 

I always  think of worship as a 'Thanks' to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), If I had all of these 'powers', I would think, there is obviously something that gave me this. That is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allhamdulillah, I am Muslim and I will always worship Allah. 

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12 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

But then you become aware of your am, so you yourself become an object of awareness and you won't be... but yet you are therfore you can be aware of your own self so you can be john the time-space bound one...

I don't understand...

 

Good question!

But let me ask you:

How does the fingertip touch it’s own tip?  

Answer:

By simply not doing anything special! By simply being what it already is.  Because the fingertip is its own touch!  

Similarly, awareness is self-aware not by doing anything special or unique but by simply being what it already is. The Self is aware of Itself by simply being because it’s very being is it’s own awareness of itself.  Awareness is self-aware.  
 

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