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In the Name of God بسم الله

Would you STILL worship God IF... Be Honest!

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First off, I wouldn't want eternal life on this earth. I see too much sorrow and misery in it and I can't imagine it carrying on forever, having to feel that pain as everyone I know dies and yet I rem

@313_Waiter@notme@Cool@al-Muttaqin@khamosh21@Northwest@Shahrukh K@shia farm girl So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality bet

I don't worship Allah because of fear of hell. I worship Him because it brings peace and baraka to my life, it makes me feel safe knowing that I have sought help and refuge from a God that has control

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

except that there are laws, dos and donts.  Going against the law is bad and following it is good, but there is absolutely no punishment if you don't follow the laws.    

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:59 PM, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  What if no one suffered?

If no one suffered, no harm of any kind was done to yourself or anyone else, what would be bad? What laws would even be needed? 

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On 10/25/2020 at 5:26 AM, eThErEaL said:

It is in-and-of-itself at ease, completely satisfied and content (regardless of whether the nafs experiences displeasure or pleasure).

The task or in fact "jihad" is to turn the nafs into that state. So that God call your nafs in the words:

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 9:11 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc.  

Because I, as a proud Atheist, cannot honestly imagine why anyone would worship a God if there was no Hell consequence and if everything already is like a virtual paradise.   Just be honest with yourself before replying.  Be a bit introspective and then reply please.  

Thank you!!!!

 

 

Remove the threat of punishment and hell, I wouldn't worship God, everything else you've mentioned would be just bonus.

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On 10/23/2020 at 11:11 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc.  

Because I, as a proud Atheist, cannot honestly imagine why anyone would worship a God if there was no Hell consequence and if everything already is like a virtual paradise.   Just be honest with yourself before replying.  Be a bit introspective and then reply please.  

Thank you!!!!

 

I am living in my world my own world, of course Allah is rabbul Aalmeen.
And my world is exactly like what you said, i can have whatever and wherever and when i want, but there is a limitation i cannot desire for what is prohibited by Allah. 
Quran is the book which tells me what i cannot desire in my world.
I never went near the cursed tree (prohibited desires) so i never tasted the zaqqum (suffering/fear).
Though shaitaan is trying his best to take me near the cursed tree.
If i desire for things that are prohibited by Allah then i have to cover myself with worship (salah, zakat, roza, haj etc.) to avoid fear or suffering.
I am happy rather i am happiness.
I love Allah, for my love for Allah is my worship.
I do not fear Him.

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9 hours ago, Cool said:

The task or in fact "jihad" is to turn the nafs into that state. So that God call your nafs in the words:

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ

Such a soul is transparent to the luminous spirit.  

 

9 hours ago, Cool said:


 

 

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18 hours ago, notme said:

 

If no one suffered, no harm of any kind was done to yourself or anyone else, what would be bad? What laws would even be needed? 

Rites of worship.  Or commands to keep your desires in check. 

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Rites of worship.  Or commands to keep your desires in check. 

But these keep people and society from harm by reminding them of divine laws and the afterlife. If there is no harm, is it even needed? 

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On 10/24/2020 at 6:41 AM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc.  

Because I, as a proud Atheist, cannot honestly imagine why anyone would worship a God if there was no Hell consequence and if everything already is like a virtual paradise.   Just be honest with yourself before replying.  Be a bit introspective and then reply please.  

Thank you!!!!

 

I worship God for Gnosis, for Ihsan, for Marifa, for Irfan. Not because of 'fear of hell' (of which itself I think is fundamentally almost universally misunderstood by Christians and Muslims).

Plus also on Jahannam, the Qur'an alludes in multiple places that the fire is not something God per se, nor Shaitan does to us, but rather something we do to ourselves.

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2 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Plus also on Jahannam, the Qur'an alludes in multiple places that the fire is not something God per se, nor Shaitan does to us, but rather something we do to ourselves

Could you please provide the verse?
 

I’ve also heard that Hell is a manifestation of our actions, in the next world, I.e. we are living in hell right now but it hasn’t been manifested yet.

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On 10/26/2020 at 10:08 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I have thought about your scenario, gives me the mental image of some badly written sci-fi book. Again, I don't see how it relates to how I see myself.

that's too bad.  just reflect on it.

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12 hours ago, Guest Daydreamer said:

I am living in my world my own world, of course Allah is rabbul Aalmeen.
And my world is exactly like what you said, i can have whatever and wherever and when i want, but there is a limitation i cannot desire for what is prohibited by Allah. 
Quran is the book which tells me what i cannot desire in my world.
I never went near the cursed tree (prohibited desires) so i never tasted the zaqqum (suffering/fear).
Though shaitaan is trying his best to take me near the cursed tree.
If i desire for things that are prohibited by Allah then i have to cover myself with worship (salah, zakat, roza, haj etc.) to avoid fear or suffering.
I am happy rather i am happiness.
I love Allah, for my love for Allah is my worship.
I do not fear Him.

So, are you a perfect servant of God?  

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53 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

@313_Waiter@notme@Cool@al-Muttaqin@khamosh21@Northwest@Shahrukh K@shia farm girl

So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality between worshipper and worshipped, then such a worship is tainted more or less with insincerity (hidden shirk, or shirk khafiyy  - a shirk that is so subtle that it is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night).  But if God is understood as your true Self that simply needs discovery for what it already is, then rites of worship, do's and dont's can be understood as ways to facilitate the journey to Self-discovery.  God is the only true "Nafs" (this Nafs or Self is not an individual, not separate, but borderless and has no boundaries) that appears to be a limited person or entity.  Ignorance is the belief of your Self as a limited person, individual or entity.  It is mentioned in the Quran that God makes those who forget Him to forget themselves.  

   

As salaamun aleikum,

Thanks for the tag, brother..ive been keeping an eye on this thread:)

Salaam

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

@313_Waiter@notme@Cool@al-Muttaqin@khamosh21@Northwest@Shahrukh K@shia farm girl

So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality between worshipper and worshipped, then such a worship is tainted more or less with insincerity (hidden shirk, or shirk khafiyy  - a shirk that is so subtle that it is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night).  But if God is understood as your true Self that simply needs discovery for what it already is, then rites of worship, do's and dont's can be understood as ways to facilitate the journey to Self-discovery.  God is the only true "Nafs" (this Nafs or Self is not an individual, not separate, but borderless and has no boundaries) that appears to be a limited person or entity.  Ignorance is the belief of your Self as a limited person, individual or entity.  It is mentioned in the Quran that God makes those who forget Him to forget themselves.  

   

Also, "He who knows his self (Nafs) knows his Lord (Rabb)". 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

What is this? (according to you)?

 

Through the cultivation of the 'Aql, it is the annihilation of delusions, both small and big, of which we as congnizing self-aware beings (or "egos") build up within our taking-serious of this world in a perceptory sense. I could talk and talk and talk about it, but what it comes down to is the all-encompassing intimacy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), of God, which is the only true-existing, the aware of all. I, and nothing that is a "thing" has any existence by itself, that our existence is only through God. As Surah 28:88 states "All things perish except the Face of Allah" (which of course has it's relation to the 14 infallibles in it's dual-meaning), or La ilaha illa'llah, There Is No God Except God. Nothing exists except God, which is the Ultimate Reality (Haqiqa, al-Haqq), the Ground of All Being, The Substrate upon which Existence exists. It is the light of the Heavens and the Earth. 

ذٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الحَقُّ وَأَنَّ ما يَدعونَ مِن دونِهِ هُوَ الباطِلُ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ العَلِيُّ الكَبيرُ

The profundity of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), of God, transcends all fear and all love, all pleasure and all suffering, all emotions including of the aforementioned awe, are all less than an atom to the totality of the Ultimate Reality (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)). 

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Hi There

This is soooooo looooong 4 pages in less than a week.  How can anyone keep up with this?!!!

From my quick reading of this, I want to respond as a Follower of Jesus. 

The question has been framed with the words "would you still WORSHIP God ..."  For me my worship of God is not something required or even demanded or prescribed it comes from a loving greatful heart.  Primaraly I don't live this life for what I can get out of it, nor do I look to heaven for a 'better' life.  The things mentioned in the OP are not my aims and objectives.

God has delivered me from a life of meaninglessness and from a life of following ritual worship.  He has entered into a loving initmate relationship with me and included me into his loving family and caring community.  Dispite the storms that rage around me (uncertainty, covid, natural disasters, disasters, corrupt politicians war and terror) I have his inner peace, I rest in him.

Would anything make me want to leave this relationship?  Through Jesus the Messiah I have recieved a full and meaningful life with God now and which will continue in His presence forever.  What a blessing!

As paul wrote in Romans chapter 8

38 So now I live with the confidence that there is nothing in the universe with the power to separate us from God’s love. I’m convinced that his love will triumph over death, life’s troubles, fallen angels, or dark rulers in the heavens. There is nothing in our present or future circumstances that can weaken his love. 39 There is no power above us or beneath us—no power that could ever be found in the universe that can distance us from God’s passionate love, which is lavished upon us through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One!

 

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On 10/28/2020 at 9:05 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The question has been framed with the words "would you still WORSHIP God ..."  For me my worship of God is not something required or even demanded or prescribed it comes from a loving greatful heart.  Primaraly I don't live this life for what I can get out of it, nor do I look to heaven for a 'better' life.  The things mentioned in the OP are not my aims and objectives.

God has delivered me from a life of meaninglessness and from a life of following ritual worship.  He has entered into a loving initmate relationship with me and included me into his loving family and caring community.  Dispite the storms that rage around me (uncertainty, covid, natural disasters, disasters, corrupt politicians war and terror) I have his inner peace, I rest in him.

Would anything make me want to leave this relationship?  Through Jesus the Messiah I have recieved a full and meaningful life with God now and which will continue in His presence forever.  What a blessing!

As paul wrote in Romans chapter 8

38 So now I live with the confidence that there is nothing in the universe with the power to separate us from God’s love. I’m convinced that his love will triumph over death, life’s troubles, fallen angels, or dark rulers in the heavens. There is nothing in our present or future circumstances that can weaken his love. 39 There is no power above us or beneath us—no power that could ever be found in the universe that can distance us from God’s passionate love, which is lavished upon us through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One!

 

Christians tend to be spiritually more attuned than majority of today’s  Muslims when it comes to “Divine Love.”  But it is in Islam as well... just not emphasized as much.  In Islam there is a need for a Law (just like in Judaism).  But in Islam the Law is not “EVERYTHING”.  It is a (or has proven to be) a very much needed safety net.  Islam starts everyone off with the fear of God.  I mean, even the Bible talks about fear of God is beginning of wisdom.  This is also a saying in the Islam.  “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”.  It should be emphasized here that it is the beginning not the end!!  Fearing God and following His commands out of fear is essential for a soul that is impulsive and cannot keep away from vices.  Such an impulsive soul type (and we all have such a soul type to varying degrees and in varying ways) will find fearing God and following His commandments essential!  
I know myself, had it not been for the threat of Hell, I wouldn’t have given a hoot about religion.  I would have probably only be interested it intellectually or philosophically, but I wouldn’t have cared much if it wasn’t for Hell.  I fear Hell at the end of the day.  Perhaps that is why I am an Atheist at heart!   But we all know, that behind all these “threats” is God’s LOVE.  He threatens us because we are weak and stupid.  But He threatens us out of His sheer LOVE for us.  So that hopefully, in our feeble attempt to follow God’s commands, We will experience moments of God’s intimacy (exactly like what you have described).

So good that you to have the relationship you have with God.  Keep it up.  And this goes to all members on this thread.  

 

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On 10/28/2020 at 1:02 PM, eThErEaL said:

wherein there is a duality between worshipper and worshipped, then such a worship is tainted more or less with insincerity (hidden shirk, or shirk khafiyy  - a shirk that is so subtle that it is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night). 

There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the nafs, in which the Self is reflected as 'I am'. Because of the imperfections of the nafs, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body, not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the nafs so that it can realise its identity with the Self. When the nafs merges in the Self, the body presents no problems. It remains what it is, an instrument of cognition and action, the tool and the expression of the creative fire within: The ultimate value of the body is that it serves to discover the cosmic body, which is the universe in its entirety. As you realise yourself in manifestation, you keep on discovering that you are ever more than what you have imagined.

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On 10/28/2020 at 10:32 AM, eThErEaL said:

@313_Waiter@notme@Cool@al-Muttaqin@khamosh21@Northwest@Shahrukh K@shia farm girl

So long as God is worshipped by a separate or independent self (individual nafs), wherein there is a duality between worshipper and worshipped, then such a worship is tainted more or less with insincerity (hidden shirk, or shirk khafiyy  - a shirk that is so subtle that it is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night).  But if God is understood as your true Self that simply needs discovery for what it already is, then rites of worship, do's and dont's can be understood as ways to facilitate the journey to Self-discovery.  God is the only true "Nafs" (this Nafs or Self is not an individual, not separate, but borderless and has no boundaries) that appears to be a limited person or entity.  Ignorance is the belief of your Self as a limited person, individual or entity.  It is mentioned in the Quran that God makes those who forget Him to forget themselves.  

   

Helloo... yeah this was so interesting I had to make an account for it! 

So...um...question: Do you mean to say that the worshipped and the worshipper are in reality the same...? 

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On 10/23/2020 at 6:41 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hey guys,

so I was wondering if there are any Muslims here that can honestly and sincerely say that they would still worship God if they were granted immortal lives on this earth, and if they were were not inflicted with sickness, old age, weakness, suffering, poverty and hunger.  By worship, I mean, would you still follow God’s commandments and prohibitions etc etc. 

As a person who has considered suicide many many times in the past I would say yes I would still... 

I mean I can't even imagine not worshiping God, he's always been there for me when it's been really hard and I'm getting emotional but like... I have a connection you know... Like I talk to him when I'm sad and when I cry you know...? 

I know you think an honest answer is only "no" but I literally have no one else except God, he's my friend, companion and helper.... He's everything that I have... And I would worship him and love him no matter which condition... So yeah... That's my answer, I would still definitely worship him and try my hardest everyday to follow the commandments and stay away from prohibitions even if we lived without difficulties and there was no chance of hell as you're asking here... 

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On 10/27/2020 at 3:20 AM, eThErEaL said:

except that there are laws, dos and donts.  Going against the law is bad and following it is good, but there is absolutely no punishment if you don't follow the laws.    

 

Well,if Allah decides not to punish for breaking the law then i trust him... So i would keep my respect and love for Him and  keep doing the 'good' that makes me happy and may do some bad deeds that basically God's laws are prohibiting me from doing in real life! (I mean when he allows it then it's definitely not gonna upset him..)

Worshipping Allah would still be there as thanking him..believing in his existence and in the other life...and  respecting the imams and awliya ...maybe just fasting and the five prayers wouldn't be there,for me, in the imaginary world you mentioned! 

 

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On 10/23/2020 at 10:33 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Iblis (la) was a devoted follower of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), look at what taking pride in worshipping Him did to Iblis (la). The former was so proud of his worship that he disobeyed the latter and refused to bow to Adam (عليه السلام). Pride goes before a fall.

Can I use this in the future for like on social media etc if I quote you as "Gaius I. Caesar"? Or quote you as something else? Or not at all...? 

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39 minutes ago, Vindemiatrix said:

Can I use this in the future for like on social media etc if I quote you as "Gaius I. Caesar"? Or quote you as something else? Or not at all...? 

Which social media will you be quoting me on? I'm fine being quoted as brother Gaius.

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58 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Which social media will you be quoting me on? I'm fine being quoted as brother Gaius.

Just on my Instagram and Facebook. Like this one I just made... I had to resize it from 3412×1920 to 1706×960 so it might not look that good below but the original one that I made which I'll post if you'll let me is a lot better quality. 

InShot_20201029_214954693_copy_1706x960.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Vindemiatrix said:

Just on my Instagram and Facebook. Like this one I just made... I had to resize it from 3412×1920 to 1706×960 so it might not look that good below but the original one that I made which I'll post if you'll let me is a lot better quality. 

InShot_20201029_214954693_copy_1706x960.jpg

Sure, no problem. It looks good to me.

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2 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

Helloo... yeah this was so interesting I had to make an account for it! 

So...um...question: Do you mean to say that the worshipped and the worshipper are in reality the same...? 

Salam,

He(?) describes himself as a humanist. l read this post you question twice. He has things mixed up. No Muslim would write like this (unless there English was very poor).

Only the Goad of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is to be worshiped.

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4 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

There is the body and there is the Self. Between them is the nafs, in which the Self is reflected as 'I am'. Because of the imperfections of the nafs, its crudity and restlessness, lack of discernment and insight, it takes itself to be the body, not the Self. All that is needed is to purify the nafs so that it can realise its identity with the Self. When the nafs merges in the Self, the body presents no problems. It remains what it is, an instrument of cognition and action, the tool and the expression of the creative fire within: The ultimate value of the body is that it serves to discover the cosmic body, which is the universe in its entirety. As you realise yourself in manifestation, you keep on discovering that you are ever more than what you have imagined.

Well said.  

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3 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

Helloo... yeah this was so interesting I had to make an account for it! 

So...um...question: Do you mean to say that the worshipped and the worshipper are in reality the same...? 

In a way. But you can also say, neither.

The point is that thee is no duality between this and that. here and there, past and future, then and now, up and down, good and bad, etc etc..

Since God is Absolute, He cannot fall in relation with anything else.  Relationship implies relative frame of reference.  The Absolute as such is not even opposite to the relative.  A real Absolute has no opposite.  So even to ask "Does God exist?" is to imply that God falls in one of the two dualities of "existence" vs "non-existence".  But really speaking these two, "existence and nonexistence" are simply constructs of the mind/ brain that operates in a binary way.  Our neurons comprise our brains.  And the neurons either fire or they don't fire.  Therefore our minds think something is either a yes, or a no (because it either fires or it does not fire.   WE think dualistically about everything, but God truly speaking is non-dual.  And true non-duality is not even opposite to duality. 

Now, this is not to belittle the world of duality, the world of duality is sacred for it not other than non-duality (since non-duality) is not separate or distinguishable like things in duality.

Hope this make sense.  

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Salam,

He(?) describes himself as a humanist. l read this post you question twice. He has things mixed up. No Muslim would write like this (unless there English was very poor).

Only the Goad of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is to be worshiped.

Care to enlighten us?

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

In a way. But you can also say, neither.

The point is that thee is no duality between this and that. here and there, past and future, then and now, up and down, good and bad, etc etc..

Since God is Absolute, He cannot fall in relation with anything else.  Relationship implies relative frame of reference.  The Absolute as such is not even opposite to the relative.  A real Absolute has no opposite.  So even to ask "Does God exist?" is to imply that God falls in one of the two dualities of "existence" vs "non-existence".  But really speaking these two, "existence and nonexistence" are simply constructs of the mind/ brain that operates in a binary way.  Our neurons comprise our brains.  And the neurons either fire or they don't fire.  Therefore our minds think something is either a yes, or a no (because it either fires or it does not fire.   WE think dualistically about everything, but God truly speaking is non-dual.  And true non-duality is not even opposite to duality. 

Now, this is not to belittle the world of duality, the world of duality is sacred for it not other than non-duality (since non-duality) is not separate or distinguishable like things in duality.

Hope this make sense.  

Yeah I agree with you on that. Imam Ali also says: "he is one but not in counting"

Then, what do you think is the role of worship (prayer to be specific) in this context?

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4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Salam,

He(?) describes himself as a humanist. l read this post you question twice. He has things mixed up. No Muslim would write like this (unless there English was very poor).

Only the Goad of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is to be worshiped.

I think he has a point though... but I'd like to know your perception too

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