Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Pope: protect Same-Sex Unions in Civil Law

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

People gotta understand here that the Catholic Church is functioning in a society that's basically turned a page on the debate over homosexuality. So to keep Catholicism alive in it's HQ, reconciliation is required. Notice though he doesn't say anything about homosexuality as being whatever their version of halal is. Just that it'd be better of same-sex couples who want to be legally recognized to go for civil unions. 

Makes sense since the entire institution of marriage is about joining bloodlines and having progeny. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
16 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

 . . . is functioning in a society that's basically turned a page on the debate over homosexuality. So to keep Catholicism alive . . .

l have heard and read about declining church attendance since the '60s. About a decade ago, l read where some churches were welcoming gays to boost membership. ln the early `90s, l read an article in The lndependent on church attendance in England was so low that many churches were actually falling down from being abandoned.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx

NOTE: BBC-Amerika  reported that the Pope's "remarks" do not signal a change in Church teachings on homosexuality, according to a Vatican spokesman.

Edited by hasanhh
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

There are rumors and conspiracy theories that Pope Francis was installed by George Soros and the American Democrat party but I have no idea how true this is, if at all.

I wouldn't doubt it though, anything that the globalist liberals can do to undermine Christianity and religion in general they are willing to do because they don't want people to believe in God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) anymore, they want government and the wealthy progressives like Soros and Jeff Bezos to take the place of God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
9 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Pope Francis was installed

As salaamun aleikum,

Its really good to see you back here, brother. Some of us here were concerned!

 Anyhow, it wouldnt suprise me at all, i just think it was a DIFFERENT group of people who did it. It always seemed strange that the pope prior to this one basically quit..

W/s

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Homosexuality isn't a black and white topic anymore. Being Anti-LGBTQ is seen as bigotry and hatred. For example:

 

Imagine-How-Stupid.jpg

Attitudes of societies change around certain things during the passage of time especially in the West though it's starting to pick up in countries such as Pakistan as well. The main problem that I see is that we live in Western countries. We shouldn't judge this society for anything Unislamic because they aren't Muslims nor it's a Muslim country. We choose to be here. We choose to live here. It's dangerous and hypocritical for us to impose our religion on anyone whose not a Muslim. Dawah is one thing. Going around with judgemental goggles on your forehead is another thing which leads to Anti-Muslim sentiments shared by the masses when you start going down this route. So it really boils down to a "If you don't like it. Leave" kind of thing. Though it's only the conservatives who are against LGBT completely and they are the ones who have a problem with everything. Christianity evolves with the times. Mainstream Islam stays the same. "Progressive Islam" and everything else associated with it are deviations.

If we choose to live in these societies, then we have to live in harmony with everyone here whether we agree or disagree with them. Let Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decide anything else on the day of judgement.

 

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
2 minutes ago, El Cid said:

If we choose to live in these societies, then we have to live in harmony with everyone here whether we agree or disagree with them.

True but we can still explain our perspective or even voice our opinion (unless it becomes a crime) or unless you want to go into politics.

Not saying this is u btw but just in case someone says “don’t judge”

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Just now, 313_Waiter said:

True but we can still explain our perspective or even voice our opinion (unless it becomes a crime) or unless you want to go into politics.

Not saying this is u btw but just in case someone says “don’t judge”

Ofcourse you can. Then a video or picture of you saying such things will emerge on twitter and you'll be crucified in your society economically and socially. These types of videos or attitudes aren't beneficial either. The only middle ground is Living in harmony and peace where everyone can flourish equally or leaving said society and going somewhere your "perspectives" are apperciated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
3 minutes ago, El Cid said:

The only middle ground is Living in harmony and peace where everyone can flourish equally

2:28 is relevant

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 minute ago, 313_Waiter said:

2:28 is relevant

 

 

Doesn't apply to this discussion. The verse is talking about submitting and taking someone as your guardian which is what submission is.

What I'm saying is Co-exist. Don't become Gay or lesbian yourself. Don't partake in Anti-islamic festivals such as parades. But don't preach things that the mainstream society is going to harm you for. That's what co-existance is. Do things which are beneficial for you economically, socially and spiritually.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
7 minutes ago, El Cid said:

That's what co-existance is. Do things which are beneficial for you economically, socially and spiritually.

I see what you’re saying bro. I’m questioning whether it’s Islamically permissible. According to Dr Sekaleshfar (if you listen to the full lecture where he was talking about such verses), we can’t live there without this element of opposition to evil, we can’t live there while remaining silent or there may be spiritual consequences. So in that case (if this interpretation is true) in the face of oppression, migration may be the option left to us.

Quote

Doesn’t apply to this discussion. The verse is talking about submitting and taking someone as your guardian which is what submission is.

Sure, this may be your interpretation, doesn’t mean it’s the only interpretation, or the right interpretation. (See tafsir Mizan for example which would conflict)

Edited by 313_Waiter
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

I see what you’re saying bro. I’m questioning whether it’s Islamically permissible. According to Dr Sekaleshfar (if you listen to the full lecture where he was talking about such verses), we can’t live there without this element of opposition to evil, we can’t live there while remaining silent or there may be spiritual consequences. So in that case (if this interpretation is true) in the face of oppression, migration may be the option left to us.

Imam ar-Rida ((عليه السلام).) explained the prohibition of at-ta'arrub ba'd al-hijra as follows: "Since there is the danger that because of at-ta'arrub, he [the immigrant] might abandon [Islamic] knowledge, get involved with the ignorant people, and drift away"5

This, however, does not mean that entering non-Muslim countries is always forbidden. Other ahadith had described for us the reward of one who visits non-Muslim lands, the reward that every Muslim longs for. Hammad al-Sindi narrates that he asked Imam as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).), "I visit the cities of polytheism [i.e., of the polytheists]; and there are some among us who say that 'if you die over there, you will be raised [in the Hereafter] along with them.'" The Imam asked me, "O Hammad, when you are over there do you talk about our affair [i.e., our truth] and call [people] to it?" I replied, "Yes." The Imam asked me, "When you are in these cities, the cities of Islam, do you talk about our affair and call [people] to it?" I replied, "No." The Imam said, "If you die over there [in the land of the non-Muslims], you will be raised as an ummah by yourself, and there will be light in front of you!"

https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/migration-non-muslim-countries

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

It seems that only living in non muslim countries where there is a risk of you leaving your faith, then it's not permissible.

Otherwise, it's okay. We can also take the example of the lives of the later Imams(Peace be upon them). They(Peace be upon them) remained neutral, didn't go purposely picking fights with Abbasi Caliphs and Abbasi influenced society. They preached appropriately without causing divisions/provocations with people who lived in these societies. Caliphates during these times were everything but Islamic including society. It was no different than living in the West. 

If you want to share your perspective, want to share Islamic knowledge. Do so as our Imams(Peace be upon them) did without causing hatred or provoking people. And also in a way that does not harm you in any way.

Otherwise if you can't meet these conditions. Then leave the rest to Higher forces like Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام). 

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

2:28 is relevant

ls this the Ayat you want to use? This deals with your/our nafs cycle (to coin a descriptive).

ls the Ayat dealing with migration when oppressed, Ayat 4:97 for example, the one you want?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
19 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

ls this the Ayat you want to use? This deals with your/our nafs cycle (to coin a descriptive).

I mean min 2 sec 28 in the video 

19 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Ayat 4:97 for example,

Yes this is one of them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators

The Pope didn't say homosexuals can marry in the Church. He just said they're human beings and shouldn't be abused! In particular, he said parents shouldn't kick their children out of the home for such things. 

Marriage is a religious practice. Civil unions are a contract. The government has no business getting involved in marriage, and religious leaders have no business getting involved in civil unions. (Except, possibly, in theocratic governments.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
4 hours ago, notme said:

The Pope didn't say homosexuals can marry in the Church. He just said they're human beings and shouldn't be abused! In particular, he said parents shouldn't kick their children out of the home for such things. 

Marriage is a religious practice. Civil unions are a contract. The government has no business getting involved in marriage, and religious leaders have no business getting involved in civil unions. (Except, possibly, in theocratic governments.)

Ok, I must have misunderstood it then. I agree that gays and lesbians are human beings and don't deserve abuse but I also agree with you that marriage is a religious practice and I believe that it's only possible for a man and a woman to truly be married, the thing that is called "gay marriage" is really just a civil union and has nothing to do with religion and therefore should be the realm of the state and not houses of worship.

My big problem with so-called "gay marriage" is that in America, the "LGBT" lobby is now forcing recognition and celebration of "gay marriage" onto Christians and Jews (forcing Christian bakers to bake cakes for "gay weddings") and once they succeed in doing that to Christians (a religion despised and reviled by the "woke" contingent because it is associated with the "woke" religion's cardinal sin: "whiteness" despite the fact that the majority of the world's Christians aren't white people), eventually they will do the same to Muslim businesses.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...