How can God have free will while being omniscient?

[313_Waiter]

If God knows what He is going to do, then how can He change His mind? Because if He was able to change His mind, then He couldn’t foresee the factor that caused Him to change His mind, and thus He cannot be omniscient.

[Quisant]

30 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

If God knows what He is going to do, then how can He change His mind? Because if He was able to change His mind, then He couldn’t foresee the factor that caused Him to change His mind, and thus He cannot be omniscient.

 

 

True, what you say.  

A Perfect Being cannot change its mind -
To change is to be subject to time, and to change implies that what comes after was better than before, which would contradict God's perfection.

If God changes (i.e., thinks) from one state of mind to another, then there must be a reason. The new state must be better than the old state. But this is impossible if God is perfect: It is not possible to "improve" God, therefore, God cannot change and God cannot possess any on-going thoughts at all. No free will. The only possible mental state for a God is a static, unchanging, unaltering status-quo.

wslm

*

[eThErEaL]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:03 AM, 313_Waiter said:

If God knows what He is going to do,

This implies a before and an after.  There is only an eternally present moment for God.  

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Then how can He change His mind

To be eternal because to be unchanging.

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Because if He was able to change His mind, then He couldn’t foresee the factor that caused Him to change His mind, and thus He cannot be omniscient.

I think a more refined theologian would say:

God freely chose whatever it is He chose from eternity (all at once) not through a gradual process of time.  .  The choice itself is an eternal choice.  And since it has to be all at once, it is only one choice.  Thais one eternal choice encapsulates all other choices that may manifest in time (gradually).

 

Only God is eternal and so only God is free!

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by eThErEaL

[313_Waiter]

Such apparent contradictions between God’s omni-properties are discussed within the philosophy of religion.

Another seeming contradiction (discussed in the below video), is the classic “can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it”? If He can, then He is not Omnipotent- because He cannot lift it. If He can’t, then He is not omnipotent and therefore not able to do all things (67:1).

I must admit, this is a great paradox. Perhaps a way out is to say that the question is not meaningful at all. Where it would be the equivalent of blabbering nonsense and not making any sense at all. See the below comment and the original post for Imam Hafar’s (عليه السلام) response to a similar question.

 

[Dave follower of The Way]

When I listen to the guy on the video talking, I get the impression that he is being a bit cynical and spimplistic.  He knows what he is talking about but also seems to have an agenda - to undermine belief in an allpowerful God.  His attitude is haughty and proud - Ha ha these silly people who believe in God.

I'm sure Muslims, just like Christians, have answers to his points.  My reaction is do we need to wrestle with these questions?

I want to suggest that it is much more profitable using our energy to get to know God as our friend and parent, to develop a close walk with him.

God values me as a unique individual, he honours our families and communities.  I don't understand and can not understand God because that would reduce him to the cage of my logic, but I can know him and journey with him. 

[313_Waiter]

18 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

God values me as a unique individual, he honours our families and communities.  I don't understand and can not understand God because that would reduce him to the cage of my logic, but I can know him and journey with him. 

This is similar to what Aquinas was quoted to have said at the end of the video. God being greater than can be conceived.

I also get your point, a journey of experience and love is perhaps a more direct journey to God.

[The Green Knight]

Why not add that how come God exists without having been created. Or maybe not because a perfect storm in a junkyard can after all sometimes assemble the 7 million parts of a jumbo jet correctly to create it by chance. We are so insignificant and unintelligent when seen in context of universe and time. We know nothing for sure.

[Eddie Mecca]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:49 AM, 313_Waiter said:

the classic “can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it”?

God can't do it or He won't do it? I believe He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has the ability to do anything but will not do irrational, nonsensical, evil etc. actions or things because of His nature...similar to how prophets possess the capability of sinning but won't sin...for example, Mr. X or Mr. Y has the ability to kill his son...but he won't do such a heinous act because he's a good Jew, Christian, Muslim or conscientious human being...but the ability to perform the action is always there...the capability is innately forever present...think of purchasing a handgun at age 20...it's cocked and loaded and ready to use...at age 80 you die without having had the need to (actually) use the gun...either you lived a peaceful existence or you were able to quell certain social disturbances without having to resort to all-out violence...God won't make a square peg and then insist that it fits into a circular hole...He could do it...but He won't do it...it's an imposed self-limitation.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Eddie Mecca

[313_Waiter]

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

On 12/31/2021 at 10:49 PM, 313_Waiter said:

 

God can't do it or He won't do it? I believe He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has the ability to do anything but will not do irrational, nonsensical, evil etc. actions or things because of His nature...similar to how prophets possess the capability of sinning but won't sin...for example, Mr. X or Mr. Y has the ability to kill his son...but he won't do such a heinous act because he's a good Jew, Christian, Muslim or conscientious human being...but the ability to perform the action is always there...the capability is innately forever present...think of purchasing a handgun at age 20...it's cocked and loaded and ready to use...at age 80 you die without having had the need to (actually) use the gun...either you lived a peaceful existence or you were able to quell certain social disturbances without having to resort to all-out violence...God won't make a square peg and then insist that it fits into a circular hole...He could do it...but He won't do it...it's an imposed self-limitation.

If we say God won’t do it, but He can make something that He can’t lift, then that would just be playing into the absurd question and assuming it is possible for something to be more powerful than God Himself. If it was possible for something to be more powerful than God, then He would no longer be the Omnipotent.For me the question is like asking if a square can ever become a circle or a married man simultaneously being a bachelor.

 As the philosopher Richard Swinburne said:

"A 'logically impossible event' is not an event, just as a dead person is not a person. It is something described by a form of words that purport to describe an event, but do not describe anything that it is conceivable to suppose could occur, since the sentence that says that it occurred entails a contradiction."

In this vain, I recall the Hadith of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq answering a logically impossible event (I found it fascinating that there’s two versions of the Hadith, though I more fully agree with the first):

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Imam Ali [a] was asked: “Does your Lord have the power to place the Earth in an egg, without making the Earth smaller or the egg any bigger?”

He [a] replied: “Verily, Allah, the blessed and exalted, cannot be attributed with deficit/inability. However, what you have asked is impossible.” [1]

When Imam Al-Sadiq [a] was asked a similar question and he said: “Although God’s power is infinite, nevertheless, what you are asking is a nothing.” [2]

Version 2:

 

Atheist: “can your Lord fit the entire universe into an egg without making the egg any bigger and the universe any smaller?”

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ع): “I would like you to look at the sky and at that bird in the sky, and at that tree and at all those people who have gathered around us and now look at me.”

Atheist: “I see them all.”

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ع): “If Allah can fit all of those things inside the tiny pupil of your eye, do you think he cannot fit the universe into an egg?

 

I also don’t think that God not being able to do the impossible takes away from His Omnipotence or His being All-Powerful. The atheist philosopher, Nicholas Everett, also says:

"To say that something is logically impossible is precisely to exclude it from the realm of the do-able. So to say that God cannot do what is logically impossible is not to say that his power is limited in any way"

https://religions.wiki/index.php/Argument_from_incompatible_attributes

Here I note that there seems to be multiple translations of 67:1, one of which that says He has power over all things (instead of Him being able to do all things).
“Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,”
Even if we take the other translation, we could argue that the logically impossible is not a thing at all.

Please correct me if I’m wrong brother.

Wallahu A’lam

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by 313_Waiter

[Abu Hadi]

On 10/21/2020 at 11:03 AM, 313_Waiter said:

If God knows what He is going to do, then how can He change His mind? Because if He was able to change His mind, then He couldn’t foresee the factor that caused Him to change His mind, and thus He cannot be omniscient.

 

When we say 'changes His(s.w.a) mind', this is a phrase we use based on our understanding of the mind, which is the human mind, (or the animal mind), the only type of 'mind' we have experience with. When you say 'Why does God change His mind', in order to answer your question, we would have to understand what God's 'mind' is. We have no way to do that. This is not something we have the ability to comprehend, given how limited our own mind is. Asking that question is like asking a baby to take a bite and bite off 1/2 the earth. Given the constraints of a baby's mouth, and given the size of the earth, there is no way to do that. 

The most we can say is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is like us in that He(s.w.a) is a being, with a will. We only know about the nature of that being and the nature of that will what we are told by The Almighty. As Imam Sadiq said, 'Focus on what is clear, and leave what is unclear'. Meaning if we don't have the ability to comprehend something, it is better not to think too much about it. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 10/21/2020 at 8:03 PM, 313_Waiter said:

If God knows what He is going to do, then how can He change His mind? Because if He was able to change His mind, then He couldn’t foresee the factor that caused Him to change His mind, and thus He cannot be omniscient.

 

God knows everything and therefore in choosing one thing or the other cannot be called as change of mind rather His wish to choose what He desires. His such wish is not because He has no choice, matters before Him are known. It is only for the sake of enlightening creatures that He wishes to choose alternative to make them realize things.

[Abdul Rahim al-Hasan]

Bismillahi Irrahman Irrahiim,

Allahumma salli alaa Muhammed wa Aali Muhammed wa ajzel farajzahum

 

You are confusing arbitrariness to the one who has decided to create everything according to the decree. The one who created everything controls alone all of it with no partners. The one who created everything has no where, when, how, why and is alone the one who has created all wheres, all whens, all hows and all whys. All wheres are places and all places has whens. All whens has whys and all whys has hows. Stone is hold to be in the existence by the one who holds all things in existence. There is no power over that.  Allah has created everything according to decree. Allah does not do injustice.

 

Allah is beyond all description.

ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَ سَبْعَ سَمَـٰوَٰتٍۢ طِبَاقًۭا ۖ مَّا تَرَىٰ فِى خَلْقِ ٱلرَّحْمَـٰنِ مِن تَفَـٰوُتٍۢ ۖ فَٱرْجِعِ ٱلْبَصَرَ هَلْ تَرَىٰ مِن فُطُورٍۢ ٣

˹He is the One˺ Who created seven heavens, one above the other. You will never see any imperfection in the creation of the Most Compassionate.¹ So look again: do you see any flaws?

https://read.quranexplorer.com/67/1/30/Usmani/Mahir-al-Muayqali/Eng-Yusuf Ali/Tajweed-OFF

[Haji 2003]

This is a really personal understanding of the issue, so happy to be corrected.

When the Qur'an talks about creation and God saying 'Be', etc. my (layperson) understanding is that at that moment not only did God create everything that was ever going to Be, but He knew what it would do and how it would die.

[abuyusufalshafii]

As salamu 'alaykum,

God is capable of doing anything which is logically possible,  Can God create a stone so heavy He couldn't lift it?   No.  This is called the law of contradiction in philosophy. 

As for verses in the scriptures that sound anthropomorphic if taken literally we understand these verses figuratively in light of other verses that lay down general principles proving Allah's tanzih (free of all defects and human like attributes).

The reason why God is not created while everything else is is because God has no substance (energy or matter).  God is perfect vacuum and continuum and  the created was emenated into existence from God gradually.  

God is everywhere all the time and is unaffected by time and space.  God is the immaterial essence of all that exists and is in no need of created beings whilst all created being are in need of Him, whether they admit it or not.

God knows everything but lets the creation deal with each other except when God chooses to intervene (letting them deal with eachother allows them to reap reward or punishment in the next life with how they choose to use this free will.  If God did not allow us these choice there would be no good in our good deeds because we would basically be forced into everything we do, good or bad, like a puppet on a string,.  The best quote on free will I know of is:  free will is the cause and fate is the effect, solving the problem of free will and determinism.

ma'as salama