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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shi’a Muslim vs Vegan Live Debate. Why are animals made to suffer if eating them is permissible?

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  • Veteran Member
  • Veteran Member
5 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

A number of studies have shown that plants feel pain, and vegetables are picked and often eaten while still alive. Animal rights activists are often in the news, but has anyone ever protested for vegetable rights?

Not as much as animals.

 

5 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Well you are a 313 veteran sc member, you should be answering your questions as well. explaining it to us

I could only wish to be part of the 313, hence I am Waiting for them :)

 

My explanation:

-> Purpose of life is not to minimise suffering, but to grow through suffering.

-> Perhaps animals grow through their suffering and reach the purpose of their lives, or perhaps they’ll be recompensed in the hereafter,

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6 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Well you are a 313

I’ve noticed you tend to make these sly remarks towards anyone who has this number in their username, in a way discouraging the individual and  undermining them. 

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Simplest explanation is that animals, vegetables, even humans, everything in all quantities are just an insignificant property of the Creator and He has given superiority to humanity over the rest of the creatures. Had He forbidden meat then a lot more people would have complained and/or there must be benefit for us somehow in such consumption. He has set forward the most optimal system and given us all respite in which we discuss if vegetables feel less pain (because they don't scream?) and about poultry rights while our other side is silent to the continuous slaughter of whole countries and continents of humans, century after century and newer and newer forms of slavery and suffering. Because we do not eat or benefit from tigers they are also destroyed to extinction. So at least chicken and cows will never go instinct -- a bright side to it all.

9 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

I’ve noticed you tend to make these sly remarks towards anyone who has this number in their username, in a way discouraging the individual and  undermining them. 

Its sad that you feel that way. I merely mean to encourage such friends on their remarkable journey to greatness. The 313 out of 7 billion. The super humans second only to Imams.

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

He has set forward the most optimal system and given us all respite in which we discuss if vegetables feel less pain (because they don't scream?)

Because they do not have pain receptors, nerves, or a brain. Anyway if someone is vegan won’t they be minimising suffering because animals eat a whole lot of grass and plants as well?

 

1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

our other side is silent to the continuous slaughter of whole countries and continents of humans, century after century and newer and newer forms of slavery and suffering.

This is Haqq 100%.

 

1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

merely mean to encourage such friends on their remarkable journey to greatness

Just to make clear that I am “Waiting” for the 313. I don’t claim to be part of them or even near their greatness.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

The 313 out of 7 billion. The super humans second only to Imams.

You know I am genuinely thinking of a new name because of you :hahaha:

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5 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Does anyone know if eating eggs would be halal if standard practice is to macerate male chicks?

Salam any egg of each Halal Bird is Halal.

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51 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Brother I mean they kill the male chicks so will it still be halal to eat the eggs.

Salam the eggs are still halal so killing male chickens  doesn't make eggs Halal or Haram . 

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Vegans are frustrating man. They honestly think that human life = animal life to such an extent, they use terms like 'holocaust' and 'slavery' when describing the meat industry knowing full well how Jews and Black people would feel about that. 

There's a reason why most don't really like them. Including even other vegans. 

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Vegans annoy me as well. We shouldn't be cruel to animals in any way like stuffing a bunch of them in a tiny space or what goes in China's wet markets for example.

Aside from that, they are made for human consumption whether it's for textile or food sources or any other resource. Just use a method which minimizes their pain for all intents and purposes. Don't use methods such as shocking animals to death etc via electricity etc. 

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I've read hadith which mention that meat should be eaten atleast once a week. It shouldn't be given up. No spiritual purpose is attained by giving up things such as food, perfume or sex according to Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Edited by El Cid
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On 10/21/2020 at 9:30 PM, Abu Hadi said:

They may suffer for minutes, hours, or sometimes days, if the wolf injures them but does not kill them and runs away for some reason. Also, if the sheep is slaughtered and then butchered and the meat is distributed or sold, this meat might keep many families alive and healthy, and almost none of it is wasted, whereas if the animal dies of an injury the meat goes to waste completely and if it is eaten by a predator, there is a chance some of it will still go to waste

Salaam, this a good response brother, thank you. 
This made me question why animals suffer at all if they were made for us, or even when lions brutally kill animals I don’t understand why they suffer. I think with human suffering, it allows us to grow as individuals and manifest more of the divine attributes like courage in the face of adversity, this would then allow us to “love Allah and for Allah to love us” and fulfil our purpose of creation.
 

I think a possible answer would be that animals will be repaid for their suffering (from humans and / or animals) and servitude to humans, in the hereafter, where some verses and traditions may seem to indicate this:

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1865/tmpl/component/printme/1

 

Wallahu A’lam

 

Wasalam

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8 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam, this a good response brother, thank you. 
This made me question why animals suffer at all if they were made for us, or even when lions brutally kill animals I don’t understand why they suffer. I think with human suffering, it allows us to grow as individuals and manifest more of the divine attributes like courage in the face of adversity, this would then allow us to “love Allah and for Allah to love us” and fulfil our purpose of creation.
 

I think a possible answer would be that animals will be repaid for their suffering (from humans and / or animals) and servitude to humans, in the hereafter, where some verses and traditions may seem to indicate this:

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1865/tmpl/component/printme/1

 

Wallahu A’lam

 

Wasalam

As to why animals suffer, one possible answer is that to be living on this earth, and to have nerves connected to a brain stem, which connects to a brain, that means any creature who has this will suffer at some point. The purpose of suffering (except when the animal actually dies) for the animal is to train them to do certain things (which give them pleasure) and not to do things (which give them pain), so that they will continue to live and also train their offspring to do / not to do those things so that they will survive. If you look at animals, all the things that give them pleasure (eating, drinking, sleeping, rough play, hunting, reproduction) help them survive and help their offspring survive and prosper, and all the things that give them pain don't help them to survive. This is, of course, if they are in their natural environment, not domesticated or in a zoo, that is a different story. This is why Islam discourages having pets, because it is bad for the animals, and also maybe discourages having things like zoos. 

In their natural environment, animals stick to those things, and don't do things which will not help them survive, and make habits out of these things. Humans do this, animals don't (in their natural environment). That is probably why there is no sharia for animals as there is for humans. So this, I think, is the point of suffering for animals, it is not comfortable in the short term, but in the long term it helps them survive. Whether there is a 'heaven' for animals and they will get compensated for the suffering in this way, 'Allah alim'. I don't know and haven't studied this subject. It would be nice if there was. 

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I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat a lot of meat because not only do I not know where to get halal meat, but I don't really enjoy it as much as other people do. It has nothing to do with "animal rights", just convenience and personal preference.

I do tend to find vegans to be largely insufferable though because they treat it like a religion rather than a dietary choice. They have to tell you (and everyone else around) that they are vegans even if nobody asked. It's a lot like the left wing version of evangelical christianity and I think that religion is the "void" that being an outspoken vegan (or a "woke" person) serves in their lives.

Having said that, I'm going to eat a salad for lunch

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On 10/21/2020 at 3:30 AM, Abu Hadi said:

The vegan movement started in the 1970s and 80s

Oh it started long before that, but I think what you mean is that this is when it began to pick up steam in the popular consciousness. Morrissey and the Smiths definitely had a lot to do with it, but so did the hardcore punk scene out of New York state in the early to mid 90s with bands like Earth Crisis, Birthright, Youth of Today and Vegan Reich (led by a Muslim named Shahid Muttaqi)

I used to be involved in the hardcore punk music scene when I was a kid, so I actually have a lot of experience with veganism and the straight-edge ideology.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Muntazir

I will quote Rumi here:

When my body will decay, the animals will feed the grass grown by it. 

I think Rumi said it, if not even then its perfect truth. If I eat a goat, his child will eat grass grown by my decaying body. Perfect justice. Unless the energy I gained from its meat is used in obedience of Allah, then his generation would only eat grass grown by the fallen nails or fallen hair.

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On 10/20/2020 at 10:59 AM, The Green Knight said:

These studies are wrong. Plants dont have a nervous system.

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Guest Muntazir
12 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

These studies are wrong. Plants dont have a nervous system.

May be you are unable to locate plant's brain because I watched a video where some trees were helping a old tree in feeding by transporting food through roots. I have brain in my head, may be trees have in roots. Besides, Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "There are different worlds, where your knowledge seems ignorance to them". I bet you don't know how a tree feels.

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5 hours ago, Guest Muntazir said:

May be you are unable to locate plant's brain because I watched a video where some trees were helping a old tree in feeding by transporting food through roots. I have brain in my head, may be trees have in roots. Besides, Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "There are different worlds, where your knowledge seems ignorance to them". I bet you don't know how a tree feels.

Okay. 

Plants don’t have a nervous system.

“Unable to locate its brain”, many animals don’t have brains, so why should plants have brains?

The argument that we shouldn’t eat animals because they have “feelings” is not a good one. You guys are enabling it. What if an animal feels like it wants to die? It doesn’t like living, it wants to kill itself, shouldn’t you help it? The argument about “feelings” is not different than the argument of western countries telling muslims that they “should learn how to live in the western way because it is the most progressive way”. It’s just people who think they know the best for everyone when they don’t realise how a culture/kingdom works.

Vegans have a messiah complex, simply.

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