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In the Name of God بسم الله

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On 10/26/2020 at 6:57 AM, khamosh21 said:

can you demonstrate the existence of God without the use of words?

Very easy to do, it just wouldn't be legal. Throw you on the boat in the middle of the ocean, that small hope you have you will be saved from starvation or drowning, there is a proof of God without the use of words.

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why do you find atheism unconvincing? why is the possibly of no God , but rather natural forces creating everything impossible?

Every belief is unconvincing.  Even Atheism can be a belief.  To believe that there is no God is a silly belief.  To believe that there is a God is also a silly belief.  Why believe this instead of th

I see what you mean now, it is a clever and intriguing point.  I feel I owe you an apology, after a trip abroad I had to quarantine for 14 days; it was driving me mad. I have been bad-temper

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8 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Very easy to do, it just wouldn't be legal. Throw you on the boat in the middle of the ocean, that small hope you have you will be saved from starvation or drowning, there is a proof of God without the use of words.

Quote

“A man asked Imam al-Sadiq (as): O son of the Messenger of Allah! Those who debate with me have confused me. Guide me to Allah. What is He?

 

Hence, he (عليه السلام) replied to him: O servant of Allah! Have you ever ridden a boat?

 

The man said: Of course.

 

The Imam (عليه السلام) responded: Then did it ever sink, leaving you without a boat to rescue you, and with insufficient strength to swim?

 

He answered: Yes.

 

The Imam (عليه السلام) asked: At that moment, did your heart have faith in something All-Powerful that could rescue you from your difficult situation?

 

Thus, the man replied: Certainly.

 

Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: Then that thing is Allah, the All-Powerful, the One who Rescues when there is no rescuer, and the One who Helps when no help is available.” “Al-Tawhid: pp 225, ch. 31, hadith no. 5; Ma‘ani al-Akhbar: pp 4, hadith 2.”

 

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9 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

In its weightiness, issuing such a fatwa is about an equally devastating load on the neck of the issuer when compared to the weight of issuing a fatwa of takfir carelessly. Why risk everything even when one feels he is an accomplished scholar, let alone when one can not even tell the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. You will dislike my words but they are not mine and they are rather for your benefit.

Imam Jafar (as): "Do not make your necks bridges for the people" (by giving them fatawa).

Thanks. I’m not saying that I’m necessarily right, only what I believe based on what I’ve read from the above hadiths and the contemporary scholarship (that not all atheists/agnostics will be damned).
 

If I add this line hopefully I won’t be damned:

 

“anything that is good is from Allah, anything that is wrong is from myself”

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

your example, the shadow including the sun, are all self evident existing things that I am compelled to assign words to... there isn't a single person that denies or doubts those things.

God's existence too is self evident. Just look into your Self.

16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Whereas for God, who is supposed to be the essential and necessary being, thousands and thousands of years of words and debates have not managed to establish His existence beyond doubt... why?

Anyone can be a "مكذب" any time. 

The equation solves immediately when you accept the truth i.e., existence of necessary being. The equation remains a puzzle when you deny to accept the Truth.

16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

you can say anything you like about something that doesn't exist. make up as many arguments as you like. you can give it impossible attributes such as the ones quoted above.

(and as a side note, if someone is born deaf, they are able to think in images, there is no concept of words or sounds in their internal dialogue)

As long as you willing to take on the blanket of doubts and willing to deny the truth, none could help you. 

Can we really "think" about anything which doesn't exist? For instance, think of a flying horse two or four wings. How can you say that thing like this doesn't exist anywhere? 

And for your side note, the deaf person uses sign language. 

Quote

There has been a lot of research on what else happens to the language-related centers of the brain when someone is born deaf.

The two primary areas of the brain affected by deafness are the temporal lobe and the left hemisphere.

The temporal lobe contains Wernicke’s area, which plays a role in processing sounds and written and spoken language.

The left hemisphere contains Broca’s area, which plays a role in the translation of thoughts to speech.

When someone is born deaf, not being able to hear speech or language can affect these areas of the brain.

However, this doesn’t mean that Wernicke’s area or Broca’s area don’t activate in deaf people. Instead, a 2008 study found that these areas have been shown to activate for sign language instead of speech.

The evidence suggests that the brain responds to the perception and production of sign language in deaf people the same way that it responds to the perception and production of speech in people who are able to hear.

If you, as a normal person, just not produce sound to pronounce the alphabet ب, it would remain a sign for you. So words are made up of these signs.  

17 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

addition: not only is your God invisible, but He is also silent and does not speak to His own creation - this allows "Prophets" and "Saints" to allege that He only speaks to them  - thus establishing complete and total monopoly over the interaction between God and remaining creation.

Neither He is invisible, nor is He silent. 

Are the Prophets & Saints something other than His creation?

Try to remove the blanket from you sight & hearing, you will not only begins to see Him but also begins to hear Him الست بربكم (Am I not your Lord), 

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17 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Very easy to do, it just wouldn't be legal. Throw you on the boat in the middle of the ocean, that small hope you have you will be saved from starvation or drowning, there is a proof of God without the use of words.

This isn't evidence or proof, it is only indicative of a psychological condition - i.e. inability to accept reality, hoping that there might be a God to save you.

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21 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

The fact that he is imperceivable to the naked eyes in the Shiite school of thought, tells us that He is not creation (limited, contingent, possible existent) but the Creator (unlimited, independent, necessary existent):

I accept this argument for on it's own for what it is.  however these are my counter arguments:

He may be imperceptible with the eyes, but He is certainly capable of showing His presence through other means such speaking or causing an anomaly through supernatural means - He fails to do this for majority of humanity. So to argue that He can't be seen because of His essence/nature, that is fine, but it can't be used as an argument to explain why He can't be perceived through other means.

Additionally I question everything else of the unseen we are required to simply accept as fact without any evidence such as heaven, hell, the reality of actions, jinn, angels...

 

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22 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

First of all welcome back brother. 

If I say he is Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate), our conception of “compassion” falls short of describing Him, our imagination falls short, the word itself falls short! But we have to start somewhere don’t we, so they are attempting to describe Him.

 

Even when we call Him Allah, we are not worshipping the name, we are worshipping this Divine Oneness (“Hu”):

Fair enough, point taken.

 

22 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Well, you’re a human! You seem that you want something extraordinary to happen (Surah Hijr says that even if the gate to heaven was opened for the stubborn deniers, they’d still say “our eyes have been dazzled”, “we have been bewitched”) or to God to communicate directly with you and give you yaqeen that way. If this is your criteria (correct me if it isn’t), then what would be the point of a test of faith, how will we be able to grow?

The point was you are establishing proof of God based on something we are ignorant of i.e. how did the universe start.

For example a sun worshiper may have argued that the sun provides us with energy and heat, and somehow he also assigned self awareness, intelligence, and awareness of human beings to the sun. WHY? Because he was ignorant of this very natural force in the universe.  My argument is we are doing the same with "God" as we don't understand how the universe works - i don't accept science as facts or truth either due to the apparent lack of knowledge that scientists have as well.

If the argument is centered on this being a "test of faith" - i don't understand why there is a test to begin with?

If this world is some type of place where human beings are supposed to develop to their full potential, than there is no point in veiling us from reality - if reality was open to us we would all progress and develop ourselves towards perfection and realizing our potential much faster and it would be much easier. The current system is not only not efficient, it is a failure as very few select individuals ever realize their real potential from a religious point of view.

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21 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Somewhat similar reason why I find the idea of having a sex change surgery "unconvincing". Let me explain.

 

If there is no afterlife, lets suppose. then as an atheist (in summary):

- I work hard, feed and care for myself and my family, face all the ugliness of life, face disease, suffer and die. And turn to dust.

And as a believer (in summary):

- I work hard, feed and care for myself and my family, face all the ugliness of life, face disease, suffer and die. And turn to dust.

However, now lets consider that there is an afterlife, oh yes, there is a universe we are oblivious to. Then:

- As a believer I get my life's deeds reviewed. If I did good deeds, God is the most Merciful. I get the perfect eternal life without all the things I hate.

- As a atheist, I get the ultimate surprise as I walk in with the wrong belief that had eased me into doing all the wrong kinds of deeds in copious amounts. In life I did not come across no people who mocked my belief but felt sympathy but here, I am being seriously ridicules and insulted, and then the verdict is given and then... .. . . . . . . .how i wish i was a fried chicken back in the world. I wish I was never born. I KNEW. I knew my belief is impossible and absurd but I kept deluding myself and kept indulging in sins. Now its too late.

So you see, from an unbiased point of view, the possibility of the existence of afterlife "vastly" up sets the scale. I can do without alcohol, fornication and immoralities in this life. Thanks. If there isn't an afterlife even then I live a very good life.

There is no harm in believing that there is an afterlife.

This isn't proof, this is just a physiological fear or gamble that you have. You are unwilling to take a risk because the Prophet and Imams might have been correct. There isn't a shred of evidence presented in your above reply but a wager, Pascal's wager.

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This isn't evidence or proof, it is only indicative of a psychological condition - i.e. inability to accept reality, hoping that there might be a God to save you.

A wise person would not conclude as such without first having experienced the situation.

Walking in another's shoes can only take you so far in understanding. Therefore you cannot claim it was a psychological condition; you have no proof because you did not experience it yourself nor did you conduct an experiment to conclude as such.

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On 10/27/2020 at 7:32 AM, khamosh21 said:

addition: not only is your God invisible, but He is also silent and does not speak to His own creation - this allows "Prophets" and "Saints" to allege that He only speaks to them  - thus establishing complete and total monopoly over the interaction between God and remaining creation.

it's interesting that God is All Hearing and Seeing - but the attribute of Speech towards His creation suddenly becomes limited to very few.

The attribute of God’s speech (is a very important attribute in Islamic Theology or Kalam).  So important that Divine Speech  is what results in

a) the creation of this world (since every entity is the result of God’s speech “Be! And it is”

and...

b) Quran (which is God’s speech to mankind, not just the Prophet (S) and the previous scriptures.

 

one thing all Atheists and Theists and Nontheists and Polytheists and Monotheists can agree on is that

1) there really IS something rather than nothing.  

2) whatever this “something rather than nothing” is is not separate from yourself, it Is not separate your lived experience.

3) so, this “something rather than nothing” is necessarily alive and conscious.  Reality, in other words, is necessarily conscious or aware or knowing.  
 

4)is this “something rather than nothing” limited, does it have distinguishing marks that define it, does it have a border of some kind?  The answer is no.  Because these borders are nothing but our beliefs about what reality actually is.  We superimpose our beliefs about reality itself thereby falsely mistaking reality to be something limited.  

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On 10/28/2020 at 8:08 AM, Cool said:

God's existence too is self evident. Just look into your Self.

Let's break down these 2 sentences....

Definition of self evident: not needing to be demonstrated or explained; obvious

Do we ever say "I believe in the sun", "I believe this table exists"... no, we "know" they exist", their existence is self evident, unlike God. God requires explanations, debates, books upon books etc... still the topic is confusing even for the "believer".

Define "look", and define "your self" in your second sentence, and then please provide clear doable instructions on how to do this "looking".

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

God requires explanations, debates, books upon books etc... still the topic is confusing even for the "believer".

Not confusing for a lot of people living in Less Economically Developed Countries, or even for people with poor education. Perhaps it’s their fitrah.

Quote

An old woman was spinning yarn. Someone asked her why she did believe in God. She stopped her hand and the spindle stopped. She said: “You see, a simple spindle needs a hand to make it revolve. Can you think that this sun, this moon, these stars, all this world moves without any guiding hand?”

 

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

Definition of self evident: not needing to be demonstrated or explained; obvious

Perhaps we have drowned so much in God that it has lead some to question it. Like the fish that is swimming in the water questioning if there is something called water.

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11 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Perhaps we have drowned so much in God that it has lead some to question it. Like the fish that is swimming in the water questioning if there is something called water.

Hello 313_Waiter,

I like the idea of the fish wondering if there is something called water...made me smile.

Do you ever think that ultimately it does not matter if something is "unseen" or "seen."
It only matters that for us to accept its existence there must be evidence of that existence.
Evidence includes all the effects the unseen thing has on the material world.  

We go about detecting the unseen... through its effects.
A thing that does not manifest in nature is indistinguishable from a non-existent thing.
If there is nothing observable about God, then it's the same as non-existence. 

wslm.

*
 

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Definition of self evident: not needing to be demonstrated or explained; obvious

Lets me give you a simple example,  there are millions of cars running on the streets and there are hundreds of car manufacturers. 

One thing is self evident:

1. Car is created by someone.

Created by whom out of hundreds of manufacturers? Would be the question remains.

For that, we simply look at the signatures. For instance, Toyota's signature will be there on its every creation. 

We, are not somethings which somehow have managed to originate ourselves spontaneously and accidently. We, also contain the divine signatures. We, are the manifestations of divine knowledge & power.

Just like the cars are not originated spontaneously, like cars are the (apparently) manifestation of our knowledge & power. 

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Define "look", and define "your self" in your second sentence, and then please provide clear doable instructions on how to do this "looking".

"Just look into your Self"

I hope that you have the capacity to "look" into the things. And I also hope that you believe in yourself too. You don't need evidence for the existence of yourself. You simply know that you exist.

Or were they created by nothing? Or are they themselves the creators? (52:35)

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

Lets me give you a simple example,  there are millions of cars running on the streets and there are hundreds of car manufacturers. 

One thing is self evident:

1. Car is created by someone.

Created by whom out of hundreds of manufacturers? Would be the question remains.

For that, we simply look at the signatures. For instance, Toyota's signature will be there on its every creation. 

We, are not somethings which somehow have managed to originate ourselves spontaneously and accidently. We, also contain the divine signatures. We, are the manifestations of divine knowledge & power.

Just like the cars are not originated spontaneously, like cars are the (apparently) manifestation of our knowledge & power. 

Yea I don't have an exact answer for this argument... and I would be willing to accept the concept of a Creator, but beyond that I get stuck... because the concept of God is not limited to just the above, for me religion plus God is a whole package, and I can't make any sense of any religion. I don't expect anyone to really solve these issues here (you don't need to attempt addressing them), but this is a summary of some issues:

1. Purpose of creation, purpose of creating anything at all
2. Why God wished to be known?
3. Why create life and world in the current manner?
4. Philosophy of reward and punishment, justice (i've read shahid mutaharri's book and other books on God's justice, didn't find the arguments there as something that made sense to me.
5. Why test us
6. Why create veils
7. Philosophy of using Prophets, Imamate, Barzakh, Day of judgement
8. Philosophy of self/soul
9. Lack of evidence of a provable relationship between worship and the real world. e.g. duas, prayers, etc.
10. Problems with the Akhaam of religion

I'll stop here but the list goes on for a while... overall I find religion to be mess... basically the  why behind everything.

With all of these questions and doubts of which I can't make sense, don't find experts answers satisfactory, I'm unsure what to do. The only possible way I see myself coming back to religion is through some kind of miracle or direct seeing of reality beyond veils (if they actually exist).

I can tell you this isn't something I wanted, I was born into a religious family and was a practicing shia Muslim. I would love to be accept these things but don't find any good reason to do so.

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On 10/29/2020 at 6:49 AM, eThErEaL said:

The attribute of God’s speech (is a very important attribute in Islamic Theology or Kalam).  So important that Divine Speech  is what results in

a) the creation of this world (since every entity is the result of God’s speech “Be! And it is”

and...

b) Quran (which is God’s speech to mankind, not just the Prophet (S) and the previous scriptures.

1. If God says "Be! and it is", then why didn't the universe just pop into existence in a perfectly created form, rather than taking billions of years to come into formation?

2. Why is His direct talking limited to few human beings? The Quran isn't direct word to mankind, it has come through an intermediary.

3. Ultimately why is anything veiled and distribution of real knowledge is so skewed.

On 10/29/2020 at 6:49 AM, eThErEaL said:

one thing all Atheists and Theists and Nontheists and Polytheists and Monotheists can agree on is that

1) there really IS something rather than nothing.  

2) whatever this “something rather than nothing” is is not separate from yourself, it Is not separate your lived experience.

3) so, this “something rather than nothing” is necessarily alive and conscious.  Reality, in other words, is necessarily conscious or aware or knowing.  
 

4)is this “something rather than nothing” limited, does it have distinguishing marks that define it, does it have a border of some kind?  The answer is no.  Because these borders are nothing but our beliefs about what reality actually is.  We superimpose our beliefs about reality itself thereby falsely mistaking reality to be something limited.  

1 and 2 yes, but 3 and 4, I don't see how atheists can agree to this. I don't see any signs that this reality is necessarily conscious or aware or know. I don't know why anyone would jump to this conclusion based on our experience.

And I could argue number 4 is your imposed belief about reality.

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

for me religion plus God is a whole package, and I can't make any sense of any religion

It is indeed. 

By the way, what you think "religion" is? 

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ 

30:30

I will surely not try to answer your questions. Because to me, they all looks absurd.  

What has been known by me is sufficient for me. Now its time to put some sincere efforts to adopt whatever that is good and avoid whatever that is bad. 

Religion is that simple.

 

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Purpose of creation, purpose of creating anything at all

A creation never occurred at any time and exists only in the mind of the perceiver, as a conjured up phantom, causing consternation to the perceiver, who is himself an effect of the process.
This universe came into existence at the time of your birth and it will cease to exist at your death.

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why God wished to be known?

God does not exist. Existence belongs to you only.
Only You want to know who am i?

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why create life and world in the current manner?

You created a world for yourself and lives in it, imprisoned by your own ignorance. 

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Philosophy of reward and punishment, justice (i've read shahid mutaharri's book and other books on God's justice, didn't find the arguments there as something that made sense to me.

Stop reading shahid mutaharri.

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why test us

Once you created for yourself a world in time and space, governed by causality, you are bound to search for and find causes for everything.

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why create veils
7. Philosophy of using Prophets, Imamate, Barzakh, Day of judgement
8. Philosophy of self/soul
9. Lack of evidence of a provable relationship between worship and the real world. e.g. duas, prayers, etc.
10. Problems with the Akhaam of religion

You are a myth, the world is a myth, and your problem/questions too is a myth.
Thus the scriptures, religion, prophets, imam, concept of barzakh sympathetically treat you with your fictional existence in the Universe.

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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

1. If God says "Be! and it is", then why didn't the universe just pop into existence in a perfectly created form, rather than taking billions of years to come into formation?

2. Why is His direct talking limited to few human beings? The Quran isn't direct word to mankind, it has come through an intermediary.

3. Ultimately why is anything veiled and distribution of real knowledge is so skewed.

You're asking the question why it is, and whether you find the answer or not, it won't change what is.

So let's see what is...

There's reality and existence, we are a product of this reality, there are degrees amomg each product of the existence, we are limited and we are human beings...

Anything limited is anything bound by rules, or way of life or whay people call religion.

We are also a social species which naturally follows a leader whom it deems as greater than itself, and we are also a species that reads and writes...

Looking at this, the concept of prophethood and Quran makes sense.

Why are we like this? Who knows!

But, are we like this? Yeah!

7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

1 and 2 yes, but 3 and 4, I don't see how atheists can agree to this. I don't see any signs that this reality is necessarily conscious or aware or know. I don't know why anyone would jump to this conclusion based on our experience.

Are you aware? Yeah. So awareness is real. Therefore ultimate reality would mean ultimate awareness.

7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

And I could argue number 4 is your imposed belief about reality.

If you say that the universe is the limit of reality, then you have prescribed borders to the reality, yet those borders are themselves real. So one cannot define reality yet reality simply is.

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11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

 

1. If God says "Be! and it is", then why didn't the universe just pop into existence in a perfectly created form, rather than taking billions of years to come into formation?

God’s speech is eternal and not in time (it has no beginning and no end.  In other words, God does not act IN or WITHIN time.  
let me give you an example:

WITHIN your dream you might find that you are 20 billion years old and you have dream memories wherein you remember what apparently happened even 5+ billion years ago.  ,

Now you wake up from your dream.  Ask yourself, when did your dream begin and when did it end?  Just As IN your dream you cannot possibly measure your “dream as such”, so also this world cannot be measured with respect to that within which it exists (namely within God!). Do you see what I am trying to say or do you need me to explain this in more detail..?  

Quote

2. Why is His direct talking limited to few human beings? The Quran isn't direct word to mankind, it has come through an intermediary.
 

It is the direct word to mankind.  the Quran is not first on paper and then in our hearts.  It is in our hearts and then it is on paper.  Reciting simply points to that which is within us (directly).  

 

Quote

3. Ultimately why is anything veiled and distribution of real knowledge is so skewed.
 

is everything veiled?  Depend on how you perceive the situation.  What makes you think everything is so veiled?  
 

Quote

1 and 2 yes, but 3 and 4, I don't see how atheists can agree to this. I don't see any signs that this reality is necessarily conscious or aware or know. I don't know why anyone would jump to this conclusion based on our experience.

You can only be certain of reality through awareness.  So you should ask, what precedes what?  so is your certitude or awareness IN reality or is reality IN your certitude / awareness?  Does reality precede awareness or does awareness precede reality?  OR is it that awareness and reality are actually identical!  
 

what do you say?

Quote

And I could argue number 4 is your imposed belief about reality.

Let us find out

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19 hours ago, Quisant said:

Hello 313_Waiter,

I like the idea of the fish wondering if there is something called water...made me smile.

Do you ever think that ultimately it does not matter if something is "unseen" or "seen."
It only matters that for us to accept its existence there must be evidence of that existence.
Evidence includes all the effects the unseen thing has on the material world.  

We go about detecting the unseen... through its effects.
A thing that does not manifest in nature is indistinguishable from a non-existent thing.
If there is nothing observable about God, then it's the same as non-existence. 

wslm.

I agree with the bold statement, but my definition of evidence would not be empirical evidence. In Shi’a Islam God cannot be seen through physical observation since this is an attribute of a contingent thing.

This book lists some of the arguments for God: https://sapienceinstitute.org/the-divine-reality/

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

With all of these questions and doubts of which I can't make sense, don't find experts answers satisfactory, I'm unsure what to do. The only possible way I see myself coming back to religion is through some kind of miracle or direct seeing of reality beyond veils (if they actually exist).

It seems you need some sort of miracle, but even then you could say you were hallucinating if you wanted to be sceptical? 

Anyway, it seems you really want to come back to faith dear brother. If that is the case maybe try this supplication to see the Imams ((عليه السلام)) for a week, also try to avoid sinning. May you be successful.

813416C7-4493-41AF-8E7D-BAEE10B6D7FE.thumb.jpeg.7938d727f3351611180fb4d435ea2c36.jpeg

 

 

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@khamosh21

You have have been wanting to see something out of this world and extra-ordinary..for a long time (as I recall).  I really think you should consider Ayahuasca.  I personally  would never do this and would never have recommended it to anyone... but it seems like this is the only way you will finally see something “epic” and hopefully after that you may be able to understand that “seeing is not believing” no matter how “epic” or “exotic” the experience may be.

 

by the way, the reason why I wouldn’t recommend Ayahuasca are the same reasons this woman gives (which I think is SPOT ON)


So, worst case scenario, you might end up with a few jinn buddies hovering around you and talking to you all the time for the rest of your life...  but at least you finally get to experience something extra-ordinary RIGHT????

Edited by eThErEaL
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15 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

@khamosh21

You have have been wanting to see something out of this world and extra-ordinary..for a long time (as I recall).  I really think you should consider Ayahuasca.  I personally  would never do this and would never have recommended it to anyone... but it seems like this is the only way you will finally see something “epic” and hopefully after that you may be able to understand that “seeing is not believing” no matter how “epic” or “exotic” the experience may be.

 

by the way, the reason why I wouldn’t recommend Ayahuasca are the same reasons this woman gives (which I think is SPOT ON)


So, worst case scenario, you might end up with a few jinn buddies hovering around you and talking to you all the time for the rest of your life...  but at least you finally get to experience something extra-ordinary RIGHT????

Isn’t this haram? Does the end justify the means?

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On 10/31/2020 at 2:13 PM, Cool said:

Lets me give you a simple example,  there are millions of cars running on the streets and there are hundreds of car manufacturers. 

One thing is self evident:

1. Car is created by someone.

Created by whom out of hundreds of manufacturers? Would be the question remains.

For that, we simply look at the signatures. For instance, Toyota's signature will be there on its every creation. 

We, are not somethings which somehow have managed to originate ourselves spontaneously and accidently. We, also contain the divine signatures. We, are the manifestations of divine knowledge & power.

Just like the cars are not originated spontaneously, like cars are the (apparently) manifestation of our knowledge & power. 

I'm presenting this as a counter argument, but more to get feedback, not as a conviction:

1. The principle being extracted from the car example is that everything that is created has a Creator.

2. Can this example be applied to the entire universe? I don't know actually as we don't know how the universe came about, what there was before this current universe if anything... for example maybe the universe has been around forever?

3. Another argument is that we do not fully understand the universe at all. For example the way time works in the universe, time being relative and moving at different speeds, these concepts seem seemingly impossible. So it may be seemingly impossible to understand how this has all come about...

So ulitmately i'm saying it's God of the Gaps argument.

I find God to be an impossible being... just as you may find it impossible to accept that creation can not come about it by itself, I find many of the attributes given to God impossible.

 

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13 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

is everything veiled?  Depend on how you perceive the situation.  What makes you think everything is so veiled?  

I'm still thinking about the other things you've written, reply to the above... for example reality of actions/deed, angels, jinn, life after death... if these things are real than they are veiled for me.

elsewhere you've written we should not believe in God, or not believe in God. However the Quran asks us to believe in the unseen, which is veiled from us.

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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

It seems you need some sort of miracle, but even then you could say you were hallucinating if you wanted to be sceptical? 

it's possible, i don't see any harm in trying it, thanks for the dua you have posted.

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

@khamosh21

You have have been wanting to see something out of this world and extra-ordinary..for a long time (as I recall).  I really think you should consider Ayahuasca.  I personally  would never do this and would never have recommended it to anyone... but it seems like this is the only way you will finally see something “epic” and hopefully after that you may be able to understand that “seeing is not believing” no matter how “epic” or “exotic” the experience may be.

 

by the way, the reason why I wouldn’t recommend Ayahuasca are the same reasons this woman gives (which I think is SPOT ON)


So, worst case scenario, you might end up with a few jinn buddies hovering around you and talking to you all the time for the rest of your life...  but at least you finally get to experience something extra-ordinary RIGHT????

Yes you recall correctly, and this isn't the first time you have recommended this, and my reply is the same.... given the opportunity I will. My current life situation does not allow me to do something like the above.

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24 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:
8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:
 

it's possible, i don't see any harm in trying it, thanks for the dua you have posted.

If that sounds too tiring try this instead. Remember to stay pure before you do it (no najasa, proper istibra/istinja)6AAEC921-FD5B-437A-90B3-756D23805DAF.thumb.jpeg.e66b2643d554f53078b4c832fc4ccf51.jpeg

Edited by 313_Waiter
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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Can this example be applied to the entire universe?

This example can be applied to any "system". Whether living or non-living.

2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

ulitmately i'm saying it's God of the Gaps argument.

I have just extrapolated unknown from the known. You are a "living system" scientifically. Gap would only arise if you claim to have no system designer.

2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I find God to be an impossible being... just as you may find it impossible to accept that creation can not come about it by itself, I find many of the attributes given to God impossible.

Stay happy with your findings. As you are not willing to know now but you will know with certainty one day.

نَحْنُ قَدَّرْنَا بَيْنَكُمُ الْمَوْتَ وَمَا نَحْنُ بِمَسْبُوقِينَ

56:60

لَقَدْ كُنتَ فِي غَفْلَةٍ مِّنْ هَذَا فَكَشَفْنَا عَنكَ غِطَاءكَ فَبَصَرُكَ الْيَوْمَ حَدِيدٌ

50:22 [and will be told:] Indeed, unmindful hast thou been of this; but now We have lifted from thee thy veil, and sharp is thy sight today!

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