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In the Name of God بسم الله

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4 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

No you're really not. You're just lost but assume that's intelligence. Hell I used to do that when I had my atheist phase throughout my teens. 

What got you out of your atheist phase? I’m kind of going through it atm

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why do you find atheism unconvincing? why is the possibly of no God , but rather natural forces creating everything impossible?

Every belief is unconvincing.  Even Atheism can be a belief.  To believe that there is no God is a silly belief.  To believe that there is a God is also a silly belief.  Why believe this instead of th

I see what you mean now, it is a clever and intriguing point.  I feel I owe you an apology, after a trip abroad I had to quarantine for 14 days; it was driving me mad. I have been bad-temper

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17 minutes ago, Zxqn said:

What got you out of your atheist phase? I’m kind of going through it atm

Have you read “The Divine Reality”? It lists common arguments for God and also counters the counter-arguments. Nonetheless, God is above all attributes in His Divine Transcendence.

You can get the free pdf here: https://sapienceinstitute.org/the-divine-reality/

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33 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Have you read “The Divine Reality”? It lists common arguments for God and also counters the counter-arguments. Nonetheless, God is above all attributes in His Divine Transcendence.

You can get the free pdf here: https://sapienceinstitute.org/the-divine-reality/

I’ve started reading it but haven’t got through much, I’m in law school and additional reading is the last thing I want hahha. I have a lot of Hamza’s videos lined up to watch, I do like how he argues things

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On 10/19/2020 at 1:55 PM, Zxqn said:

why do you find atheism unconvincing?

Because half truth itself is unconvincing. 

"There is no god" is a half truth unless you make it a complete truth by saying "but God" or make it complete falsehood by saying "natural forces are God/Creator".

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"La ilah" (there is no god) implies the negation of every falsehood. We can make anything as god, like the idea that natural forces are the creator. 

The beauty of truth is that we don't really need to make anything truth. Truth is always there and just need acceptance. Truth Almighty cannot be made, He just is! 

Hence the phrase "ilallah" implies the acceptance of that Truth.

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9 hours ago, Zxqn said:

What got you out of your atheist phase? I’m kind of going through it atm

Reading, reflecting, doing spiritual activities once I was ready. The first step though was realizing that everything has a cause, and because the universe is complicated, that cause being intelligent design isn't too far off. Was kinda introduced to this through the Kalam Cosmological argument: 

  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. (We observe this in nature)
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Craig also goes a bit further into this when contemplating the nature of the cause:

  1. The universe has a cause.
  2. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists who sans (without) the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.
  3. Therefore, an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and infinitely powerful.
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1 hour ago, BleedKnee said:
  • Whatever begins to exist has a cause. (We observe this in nature)
  • The universe began to exist.
  • Therefore, the universe has a cause.

i agree with this 

 

1 hour ago, BleedKnee said:
  • The universe has a cause.
  • If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists who sans (without) the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.
  • Therefore, an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and infinitely powerful.

but why does there need to be a "personal creator? thats the bit that kind of trumps me

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20 minutes ago, Zxqn said:

but why does there need to be a "personal creator? thats the bit that kind of trumps me

This might answer your question:

 

Full playlist

 

Or this might help (actually watch this first it’ll address your question more directly):

 

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26 minutes ago, Zxqn said:

but why does there need to be a "personal creator? thats the bit that kind of trumps me

It doesn't. This Creator can be understood in a multitude of ways. Hence why there's classical theism, pantheism, etc. 

You can disagree with the mainstream conception of God, but to me you're not being logical when you deny God himself. 

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3 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

The first step though was realizing that everything has a cause, and because the universe is complicated, that cause being intelligent design isn't too far off. Was kinda introduced to this through the Kalam Cosmological argument: 

  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. (We observe this in nature)
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

 

What we have observed is that Within our universe, whatever begins to exist has a cause.

But the universe is not 'a single big thing; it is the sum of all things and is thus not subject to the same constraints. A category error, like saying:

(1) All novels have an author.
(2) Literature consists of all novels.
(3) Therefore, literature has an author.

Every human has a belly button, but Humanity does not. 

 

Yes, we have seen that in our universe things require causes, but it has never been established that the causes must be intelligent.

A First Cause does not need to be God; a starting point doesn't need to be supernatural or Intelligent. Why do you think it does? 
 
But if there was an intelligent  First Cause, there are many possible candidates for the role: the God you believe in; Plato's demiurge; a new age force (Star Wars may the force be with you); space aliens from another galaxy; time travellers; or an unknown intelligent being.
 
How do you identify that First Cause with your God, what steps do you take to reach that conclusion?

wslm.

*

 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

But the universe is not 'a single big thing; it is the sum of all things and is thus not subject to the same constraints. A category error, like saying:

(1) All novels have an author.
(2) Literature consists of all novels.
(3) Therefore, literature has an author.

Every human has a belly button, but Humanity does not. 

We're talking about nature here. Science has routinely shown us how everything within the natural world is connected, at times sharing casual relationships. So we can say that we are all One in a way. And as such then, it's important to ask, where does this One originate from? 

1 hour ago, Quisant said:

A First Cause does not need to be God; a starting point doesn't need to be supernatural or Intelligent. Why do you think it does?

The nature of being is complex, citing the need for an originator for all these natural laws. 

Quote

How do you identify that First Cause with your God, what steps do you take to reach that conclusion?

See this is why I don't really like debates over the existence of God, because at some point somebody's just gonna ask "well how come your religion is correct" as if that isn't an entirely different conversation. If you somehow prove Islam is incorrect, you haven't disproven God's existence. So why bring my religion up? 

Also, God is not limited to what any religion conceives Him as. And so religion itself shouldn't be included in discussions like these. 

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4 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

Science has routinely shown us how everything within the natural world is connected

What I don’t get is how you‘d respond to this:
If things within the universe are caused, then how does it imply that the question of causation is even relevant for the universe, as Quisant outlined?

Maybe it’s like stating that everyone in your home has a sex (male/female), and thus the home has a sex.

 

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8 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

What I don’t get is how you‘d respond to this:
If things within the universe are caused, then how does it imply that the question of causation is even relevant for the universe, as Quisant outlined?

Maybe it’s like stating that everyone in your home has a sex (male/female), and thus the home has a sex.

Well at that point you can go to the chain of causation argument. But I'm not talking about sex, or books, I'm talking about natural laws and logic. If the universe functions in that logic, then we can make the assumption that we can continue with the logic when assessing whether God exists or not. Continuing the logic, He does. 

What's wrong with me taking observable facts around me and coming into a logical conclusion? Isn't that what science basically is?

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15 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

We're talking about nature here. Science has routinely shown us how everything within the natural world is connected, at times sharing casual relationships. So we can say that we are all One in a way. And as such then, it's important to ask, where does this One originate from? 

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself
If the teachings of the faith are God’s revelation of the truth; science, the product of human reason, is the search for truth. 
The “correct faith“, therefore, cannot be opposed to “good science” because “truth” is the object of both.  
 

16 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

The nature of being is complex, citing the need for an originator for all these natural laws. 

Your rule/principle: complexity suggests a creator
Your unjustified exemption: God. Complex yet needs no creator. 
 

17 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

So why bring my religion up? 

Because you declare your religion to be Islam,  you must have decided that the First Cause was Allah: I was merely curious as to what steps do you take to reach that conclusion.

wslm

*

 

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14 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Complex yet needs no creator. 

A) Do complex actions necessitate complex essence? E.g. a blade can cut all sorts of things like hair, grass etc. but an electric trimmer only cuts hair, and yet the blade is less complex.

B) What if all is a manifestation of that Pure Being 

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24 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

A) Do complex actions necessitate complex essence? E.g. a blade can cut all sorts of things like hair, grass etc. but an electric trimmer only cuts hair, and yet the blade is less complex.

Actions are actions, they have no essence.

 

25 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

B) What if all is a manifestation of that Pure Being 

If that were the case everything would be Purity.  I witness too much ugliness to ride with that idea....

Sorry, I am a non-believer.

Best wishes.

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

If that were the case everything would be Purity.  I witness too much ugliness to ride with that idea....

Everything He advises us to do results in purity. If He told us that something is good when it's actually bad or vice versa, then you'd have a case. But He has given us all the tools we need for a utopia and was merciful enough to give us the free will to do it ourselves. Everything He is behind IS purity. Everything that He is against is impurity.

 

6 hours ago, Quisant said:

But if there was an intelligent  First Cause, there are many possible candidates for the role: the God you believe in; Plato's demiurge; a new age force (Star Wars may the force be with you); space aliens from another galaxy; time travellers; or an unknown intelligent being.
 

What I want to pound into the heads of you people is that atheists don't look at the question in the same way we do. And they don't the slightest interest in answering the question. Aliens? Time travelers? Is he joking? If this is proven then that still leaves the question: Where did THEY come from? If God is proven true then do we ask where He came from?

 

6 hours ago, Quisant said:

But the universe is not 'a single big thing; it is the sum of all things and is thus not subject to the same constraints. A category error, like saying:

(1) All novels have an author.
(2) Literature consists of all novels.
(3) Therefore, literature has an author.

Every human has a belly button, but Humanity does not. 

 

And when they have nothing to say they resort to ol' reliable: Muddling the question, getting pedantic about semantics and the nitty gritty things that don't mean anything. When you talk to an atheist, you have to focus on the meta of the discussion just as much as the arguments. Think "Why is he saying this" just as much as "What is he saying." Because that's the game they play. They will never ever tackle your arguments point blank, they will try to deconstruct your very question, the very terms you use, and then shrug their shoulders and say "Well I can't say anything to you, your argument doesn't work as an argument!" 

A big reason why I'm not atheist is that I believe the truth sets you free and enlightens you, if the typical atheist behaved like how a typical mo'min behaved, then my faith would be shaken. Until then, la ilaha illa Allah.

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6 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

What I’m saying is God’s essence is not necessarily complex if His actions are complex

 

I see what you mean now, it is a clever and intriguing point. 

I feel I owe you an apology, after a trip abroad I had to quarantine for 14 days; it was driving me mad.

I have been bad-tempered,  thoughtless and self-centred with you. I am sorry.
To day I can finally go out in the open fresh  air!

Thanks for talking to me, see you again soon.
Best wishes. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

I see what you mean now, it is a clever and intriguing point. 

I feel I owe you an apology, after a trip abroad I had to quarantine for 14 days; it was driving me mad.

I have been bad-tempered,  thoughtless and self-centred with you. I am sorry.
To day I can finally go out in the open fresh  air!

Thanks for talking to me, see you again soon.
Best wishes. 
 

No worries, no need to apologise.

I enjoy talking with you.

Thanks and Best wishes :)

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1. The most fundamental argument for the existence of God is how did it all start?

We simply don't know - I don't see any reason to jump to the conclusion that there is a God.

The conclusion that God must exist is based on arguments based on the understanding of the world from a human perspective - our perspective of the universe is not complete - thus how do I reach a conclusion based on lack of knowledge?

For example, human beings throughout history have worshipped objects or people, for example worshipping the sun, stars, fire etc because they were doing it from a position of lack of knowledge - what's really changed when we believe in God? It too is from a place of lack of knowledge.

If there are any arguments that use what we know as a premise, and God can be proven, than that would be convincing.

2. I don't see any reason why I have to be forced to believe in the words of "Prophets" - I just can't rely on historical accounts.

3. Finally, I don't even want to use arguments or words, can you demonstrate the existence of God without the use of words? The God you worship is a God of arguments, imaginations, and beliefs... how about a God that is Real, doesn't require words, beliefs and imagination?
 

 

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57 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't even want to use arguments or words, can you demonstrate the existence of God without the use of words? The God you worship is a God of arguments, imaginations, and beliefs... how about a God that is Real, doesn't require words, beliefs and imagination?

This is the God @eThErEaL believes in.

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22 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

can you demonstrate the existence of God without the use of words?

Its like saying can you eat an Apple without putting it into your mouth. 

Great question!!

22 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

how about a God that is Real, doesn't require words, beliefs and imagination?

Again a great question!!!

So the noun "God" or "Allah" itself is a word. Expression or imagination like "Hu" هو، itself is a word. 

"Real" itself is a word.

Imagine yourself standing in a lawn in a bright sunny day. You don't know the name of the bright object shining on your head. But you know that the your shadow formed on the ground is because of that object shining on your head.  You believe that this is the reason of the existence of your shadow. 

To reach to this conclusion, there has to be a dialogue within yourself. A session of questions & answers, which not necessary require noisy speech, but it does require words.  

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On 10/26/2020 at 9:57 PM, khamosh21 said:

3. Finally, I don't even want to use arguments or words, can you demonstrate the existence of God without the use of words? The God you worship is a God of arguments, imaginations, and beliefs... how about a God that is Real, doesn't require words, beliefs

I think these excerpts from ahadith are especially relevant:

Quote

When Dhi'lib al Yamani had asked Imam Ali: "Have you seen your Lord, O commander of the faithful?" So he replied "Would I worship that which I do not see?" 

So Dhi'lib asked "How do you see Him?" So Imam Ali said:
"Woe unto you O Dhi'lib, eyes do not see Him with a direct witnessing but hearts perceive Him through the realities of authentic belief.

He is known through the evidence that points to Him.
He is described by indications.
He cannot be compared to human beings.
And He cannot be perceived by the senses.

O Dhi'lib,
My Lord is near to all things without physically touching them.
He is distant from them without being separated.

He speaks but without the need for reflection.
He is manifest but not physically.

He has made Himself evident but without allowing direct vision. He is separated but not through distance. He is close but without sacrificing His exaltedness.

He wills but without aspiration.
He moulds but without the assistance of limbs.
He attains but not through deceit.

He is subtle but cannot be said to be concealed. He is great but cannot be said to be arrogant.

He is grand in His grandeur.
He cannot be described as having size-able magnitude.

He is majestical in His splendor.
He cannot be described as massive. He hears but cannot be said to use the organ of
hearing.
He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense of
sight.

He is merciful but cannot be said to have
weakness of heart. 

He was before all things so that nothing can be said to be before Him. And He is after all things so "after" is not said of
anything after Him.

He is within all things without being merged with them. And also without being separated from them. He exists but without the need to come into existence.

He acts without compulsion.
He determines but without the need for movement. Places do not contain Him. He is not contained within time.
Attributes do not define Him with due respect. The need for slumber never affects Him.
His existence precedes time itself. His being precedes non-existence. His eternalness precedes all beginnings.
He was Lord before there was anything to be Lord
of. And He was God before there was anything to be
God of.

He was knowing before there was anything to be known.
He was hearing before there was anything to be
heard.

Faces surrender before His grandeur. Hearts tremble exceedingly out of fear of Him.
Souls strive desperately to attain His full satisfaction.

Quote

“Praise is due to God, Whose worth cannot be described by the describer, Whose bounties cannot be counted by enumerators, and Whose claim cannot be fulfilled by those who attempt to do so. The height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate Him, and the depths of understanding cannot reach Him. For His description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained, and no duration is fixed.
(Sermon 1)”

Quote

The foremost (duty) in religion is the acknowledgment of God; the perfection of acknowledging Him is to bear witness to Him; the perfection of bearing witness to Him is to believe in His Oneness; the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him as pure; and the perfection of regarding Him as pure is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed, and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

Thus, whoever attempts a description of God creates His like; and whoever creates His like regards Him as two; and whoever regards Him as two recognizes parts for Him; and whoever recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him faulted Him; and whoever faulted Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him enumerated Him (i.e., denied His oneness and uniqueness).

Whoever said, “In what is He?” held that He is confined; and whoever said, “On what is He?” held He is not on something else. He is a being, but not through the phenomenon of coming into existence. He exists, but not by coming out of nonexistence. He is near to everything, but not in physical proximity. He is distinct from everything, but not separated (by distance). He acts, but without the need of movement or need of instruments. He is One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or none whose company He may miss.
(Sermon 1 - Nahjul Balagha, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) )

 

 

095C0B1A-3670-41CA-8A5A-91E6177442BC.jpeg
 

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52 minutes ago, Cool said:

Its like saying can you eat an Apple without putting it into your mouth. 

Great question!!

Again a great question!!!

So the noun "God" or "Allah" itself is a word. Expression or imagination like "Hu" هو، itself is a word. 

"Real" itself is a word.

Imagine yourself standing in a lawn in a bright sunny day. You don't know the name of the bright object shining on your head. But you know that the your shadow formed on the ground is because of that object shining on your head.  You believe that this is the reason of the existence of your shadow. 

To reach to this conclusion, there has to be a dialogue within yourself. A session of questions & answers, which not necessary require noisy speech, but it does require words.  

in your example, the shadow including the sun, are all self evident existing things that I am compelled to assign words to... there isn't a single person that denies or doubts those things.

Whereas for God, who is supposed to be the essential and necessary being, thousands and thousands of years of words and debates have not managed to establish His existence beyond doubt... why?

I am not compelled to create this word God and assign it attributes... human beings have been assigning attributes of power to the sun, fire, stars, statues, and invisible beings due to lack of knowledge - once we realize that the sun or fire aren't intelligent and just physical phenomenon, we no longer assign attributes such as intelligence or wordssuch as God or worship to these objects.

the beauty of believing in an invisible God is that you can assign as many made up attributes to it - you can say anything you like about something that doesn't exist. make up as many arguments as you like. you can give it impossible attributes such as the ones quoted above.

(and as a side note, if someone is born deaf, they are able to think in images, there is no concept of words or sounds in their internal dialogue)

 

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addition: not only is your God invisible, but He is also silent and does not speak to His own creation - this allows "Prophets" and "Saints" to allege that He only speaks to them  - thus establishing complete and total monopoly over the interaction between God and remaining creation.

it's interesting that God is All Hearing and Seeing - but the attribute of Speech towards His creation suddenly becomes limited to very few.

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1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

I think these excerpts from ahadith are especially relevant:

 

So He is beyond description, yet all of the above quotes and His attributes/names are describing Him...

How can this contradiction by reconciled?

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51 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

So He is beyond description, yet all of the above quotes and His attributes/names are describing Him...

How can this contradiction by reconciled?

First of all welcome back brother. 

If I say he is Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate), our conception of “compassion” falls short of describing Him, our imagination falls short, the word itself falls short! But we have to start somewhere don’t we, so they are attempting to describe Him.

 

Even when we call Him Allah, we are not worshipping the name, we are worshipping this Divine Oneness (“Hu”):

Quote

“What is the root from which the word Allah is derived?" The Imam replied, "O Hisham, the word Allah is derived from ’ilah, that is, the One Who is worshipped and the One who is worshipped is supposed to be worth worshipping. The name of Allah is different from His Own self. Whoever worships the name not the meaning has become a heathen and has, in fact, worshipped nothing. Whoever worships the name and its meaning jointly, he becomes a polytheist because of worshipping two gods. Whoever worships the meaning of the word Allah only he, in reality, has worshipped the One Allah (God). O Hisham, did you grasp it?"

Hisham requested, "Kindly enlighten me more." The Imam added, "Allah has ninety-nine names. If each name had a separate meaning then each meaning would have been a god. Allah is One only and all His names stand for just One reality and all these names are other than Allah Himself. O Hisham, bread is the name of something to eat. Water is the name of something to drink. Dress is the name of something to wear on. Fire is the name of something that burns. O Hisham, did you fully grasp the point so you can defend your belief and contest successfully against our opponents, who, along with Allah, the Exalted, the Great, except things other than Him?" Hisham replied, "Yes, I did understand." The Imam said, "O Hisham, may Allah benefit you thereby and grant you steadfastness." Hisham (the narrator) says, "I swear by Allah, no one has ever defeated me on the issue of the Oneness of Allah until now."” - Kitab al Kafi H 310, Ch. 16, h 2

 

On 10/26/2020 at 9:57 PM, khamosh21 said:

The conclusion that God must exist is based on arguments based on the understanding of the world from a human perspective - our perspective of the universe is not complete - thus how do I reach a conclusion based on lack of knowledge?

 

Well, you’re a human! You seem that you want something extraordinary to happen (Surah Hijr says that even if the gate to heaven was opened for the stubborn deniers, they’d still say “our eyes have been dazzled”, “we have been bewitched”) or to God to communicate directly with you and give you yaqeen that way. If this is your criteria (correct me if it isn’t), then what would be the point of a test of faith, how will we be able to grow?
 

We’ve established that  anything that could be said about God falls short of describing Him, you could also relate this to how, the Islamic shahada consists of a negation and an affirmation: “There is no god except God”, and this could also be related to what Ibrahim ((عليه السلام)) was trying to show us here:
 

Quote

[6:76] So when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; said he: Is this my Lord? So when it set, he said: I do not love the setting ones.

[6:77] Then when he saw the moon rising, he said: Is this my Lord? So when it set, he said: If my Lord had not guided me I should certainly be of the erring people.
[6:78] Then when he saw the sun rising, he said: Is this my Lord? Is this the greatest? So when it set, he said: O my people! surely I am clear of what you set up (with Allah).
[6:79] Surely I have turned myself, being upright, wholly to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth, and I am not of the polytheists.

 

Now, you may ask if God is so transcendent, then how do we know Him? Well while He is transcendent, He is also closer to us than our jugular vein: “wherever you turn, there is the Face of God”. Contemplation of the signs within the cosmos is a path towards spiritual enlightenment within the Islamic discourse, which is re-emphasised throughout the Qur’an and this is one of the main reasons why common Muslims believe in God. Of course, there will be counter arguments and perceptions to this (if you’re looking for good arguments and counter-counter arguments, download this: https://sapienceinstitute.org/the-divine-reality/).

Another way to have gnosis of this Divine Perfection or God is through meditation and recognition or awareness of the true self (void of our desires, actions, ego), for “Whoever knows his self knows his Lord” -the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I believe brother @eThErEaL has taken this path. 

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

not only is your God invisible

The fact that he is imperceivable to the naked eyes in the Shiite school of thought, tells us that He is not creation (limited, contingent, possible existent) but the Creator (unlimited, independent, necessary existent):

Quote

“An atheist entered the presence of al-Rida (عليه السلام) when he had some people in his presence.

Can you describe to me how He is and where He is?

 

Quote

The Imam (عليه السلام) answered: Woe to you! Verily, you are misguided. He originated the “where” since He existed when there was no “where.” He originated the “how” since He existed when there was no “how.” He cannot be described in terms of “how” or “where,” nor can He be perceived by any of our senses, or gauged by any other means.

The man said: Then surely He is nothing if He cannot be perceived by any of the senses.

Abu al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said:

“Abu al-Hasan (عليه السلام) said: Woe to you! Will you deny His Lorship simply because your senses cannot perceive Him? Although our senses fail to perceive Him, we know for certain that He is our Lord despite arguments to the contrary”

“Abu al-Hasan (عليه السلام) replied: Verily, when I contemplate my body and see that it is impossible for me to increase or decrease its breadth and height, to keep unpleasant things away from it, or draw benefits to it, then I know that this structure has a Maker. I acknowledge His Existence on the basis of the planets which orbit in the celestial sphere by His Command. I acknowledge His Existence on the basis of the production of clouds in the sky.

I acknowledge His Existence on the basis of the movement of the winds. I acknowledge His Existence on the basis of the movement of the sun, the moon, and the stars. When I consider all the wonders of creation, I know that they are the product of a Determiner [Muqaddir], and an Originator [Munshi]”

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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On 10/19/2020 at 1:55 PM, Zxqn said:

why do you find atheism unconvincing?

Somewhat similar reason why I find the idea of having a sex change surgery "unconvincing". Let me explain.

 

If there is no afterlife, lets suppose. then as an atheist (in summary):

- I work hard, feed and care for myself and my family, face all the ugliness of life, face disease, suffer and die. And turn to dust.

And as a believer (in summary):

- I work hard, feed and care for myself and my family, face all the ugliness of life, face disease, suffer and die. And turn to dust.

However, now lets consider that there is an afterlife, oh yes, there is a universe we are oblivious to. Then:

- As a believer I get my life's deeds reviewed. If I did good deeds, God is the most Merciful. I get the perfect eternal life without all the things I hate.

- As a atheist, I get the ultimate surprise as I walk in with the wrong belief that had eased me into doing all the wrong kinds of deeds in copious amounts. In life I did not come across no people who mocked my belief but felt sympathy but here, I am being seriously ridicules and insulted, and then the verdict is given and then... .. . . . . . . .how i wish i was a fried chicken back in the world. I wish I was never born. I KNEW. I knew my belief is impossible and absurd but I kept deluding myself and kept indulging in sins. Now its too late.

So you see, from an unbiased point of view, the possibility of the existence of afterlife "vastly" up sets the scale. I can do without alcohol, fornication and immoralities in this life. Thanks. If there isn't an afterlife even then I live a very good life.

There is no harm in believing that there is an afterlife.

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36 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

- As a atheist, I get the ultimate surprise as I walk in with the wrong belief that had eased me into doing all the wrong kinds of deeds in copious amounts. In life I did not come across no people who mocked my belief but felt sympathy but here, I am being seriously ridicules and insulted, and then the verdict is given and then... .. . . . . . . .how i wish i was a fried chicken back in the world. I wish I was never born. I KNEW. I knew my belief is impossible and absurd but I kept deluding myself and kept indulging in sins. Now its too late.

This is an interesting argument, I think it is called Pascal’s wager. Personally I’m not a big fan of it but if people want to follow this argument then go for it, because I’ve seen the Imams use this argument in some of their attributed hadiths (they themselves being the Hujjatullah fil ardh).
 

I also don’t think all agnostics/atheists know that they are wrong, nor do I think they will all perish, considering that  some of them are Qasir as per Sayed Khomeini’s description here: https://www.iqraonline.net/salvation-of-non-muslims-in-the-view-of-contemporary-imami-scholars/ relevant ahadith: http://purifiedhousehold.com/salvation-of-non-shias/

Hajj Hassanain Rajabali explaining the mustadh’af (searching) atheist can enter paradise: https://youtu.be/pKSo7EYPE9Q

 

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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50 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

agnostics/atheists

Two entirely different conditions.

51 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

(searching) atheist

Oxymoron.

51 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

 some of them

Insignificant.

Btw you just posted a thread about only 1 sect out of 73 going to jannah. And now you are not so discriminating. The thing is that no matter how much perfume you spray on it it does not change the reality.

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14 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Two entirely different conditions.

Agreed

 

14 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Oxymoron

Well, not really, you could be searching for the existence of God and still not believe in one. Just like you could be contemplating if atheism is true while believing in God.

 

14 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Insignificant

If you actually read the link Sayed Khomeini says most of humans are qasir, there is a hadith that says/alludes to this as well.

14 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Btw you just posted a thread about only 1 sect out of 73 going to jannah. And now you are not so discriminating. The thing is that no matter how much perfume you spray on it it does not change the reality.

If you actually read the link I posted you wouldn’t be questioning my intentions. You claim to know the reality, and yet you haven’t quoted a single source. Such dialogue is not conducive to learning.

 

Anyway, this discussion on salvation of atheists is off-topic so I won’t derail this thread further.

 

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38 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

this discussion on salvation of atheists

In its weightiness, issuing such a fatwa is about an equally devastating load on the neck of the issuer when compared to the weight of issuing a fatwa of takfir carelessly. Why risk everything even when one feels he is an accomplished scholar, let alone when one can not even tell the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. You will dislike my words but they are not mine and they are rather for your benefit.

Imam Jafar (as): "Do not make your necks bridges for the people" (by giving them fatawa).

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