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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why does the Quran say to judge by the Torah and Injeel?

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To continue the study of Surah 61:6 --- Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me,

Jesus said, John 14:16 “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper (e; Comforter, Gr. Parakletos), that He may abide with you forever.”  --- This was not a person to come, but the Holy Spirit that could indwell them to help them. Perakletos means ‘called to one’s aid,’ --- as a lawyer, counsellor, or comforter.

In the Douay (Catholic) Bible, it says, ‘he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.’  The King James Bible says, ‘he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.’

And it continues in verse 17 “The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” 

Jesus was ‘indwelt’ by the Holy Spirit so it says ‘the Spirit of truth’ dwelt ‘with them’ in the Person of Jesus, but would also be ‘in them.’

This happened on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1 “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.”

--- This was the Spirit of Truth which spoke through Jesus, and would speak through the apostles after the Day of Pentecost. 

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I’ll explain these briefly in a couple of hours.... don’t lose hope. 

Hi 313_Waiter,   Quote from your post: But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹t

Hi 313_Waiter,  No problem, the Scriptures have not changed.  And when you mention the instructions in the Torah for the Jews, they are mainly the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20. --- In sim

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--- So what was the work of the Holy Spirit as a Helper to the Apostles?

It gives these verses in John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” 

--- So He would give them knowledge and the instant recall of what Jesus had taught them.

John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”  

--- The Apostles were the witnesses to the people, and they continued the miracles of healing and deliverance, which were the signs, to show that they had been with Jesus.

16:13 “When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me.” 

--- What the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostles would be the truth, because it was from God. --- Only God knows the future, and the Holy Spirit would prophesy through them of things to come.

--- And most importantly, the Holy Spirit would 'glorify Jesus' through the Apostles and the believers.

 Surah 2:253 "We (God) gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. 

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To continue in Surah 61:6 with: “A Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” --- The name Ahmad has also the meaning of ‘the Praised one.’

Though Jesus was human, he was Holy and without sin, so that the Holy Spirit could work through Him. --- And the praise and glory came on Jesus as a result of the signs and wonders of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

--- It says in Matthew 4:23 “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

--- And Jesus said to His disciples in John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do.”

--- And this is the evidence in Acts 5:12 “And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. --- 14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. 16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”

 

Surah 2:87 And verily We (God) gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We (God) supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

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To continue in Surah 61: But when he (Jesus Christ) came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

The Pharisees rejected the message of Jesus that came with the accompanying signs. --- But of one leading Pharisee, it says this in John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

--- Nicodemus became a believer and assisted another Pharisee, Joseph of Arimathea in the burial of Jesus after the crucifixion in John 19:38  After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus. 39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came. --- 40 Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. 

--- But the Pharisees who called for Jesus’ death, rejected His ministry and disbelieved the signs, even suggesting they were magic or sorcery. In so doing they committed the unpardonable sin. The following verse expresses the same sentiment in the Quran by unbelievers.

 

5:110 When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic

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To continue with Surah 61:7 Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam (the surrender to God) And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

I understand that, ‘Al Islam’ means ‘the surrender,’ or ‘submission,’ --- and Muslim means, ‘a surrendered one,’ one who has submitted to the will of God. --- The name Christian means, ‘Christ’s ones’ or ‘followers of Christ,’ who are submitted to the will of God.

--- This is a confirmation of the Christian faith that is supported by the Holy Spirit, which God gave as a guide and Helper for those who surrender their lives to Him. --- And the Quran says:

Surah 16: 101. And when We (God) put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they (the critics) say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

--- When God reveals a new ‘revelation’ or ‘word of knowledge’ by the Holy Spirit through a believer, the critics reject it, not knowing or understanding that this is how God reveals His truth. --- They reject that this is how God guided Muhammad as a prophet, so God instructs Muhammad to answer them, with this response:

102. Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Him).

--- Is this not the instruction: --- that Muslims (surrendered ones) should be guided by the Holy Spirit even as Christians are?

Notice the same message here for believers as in Surah 5:46 We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Surah 16:102 The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Him).

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Hi 313_Waiter,

While it might seem that I have taken over your topic, I am answering your questions, “Why does the Quran say to judge by the Torah and the Injeel?”

Surah 61 has agreed with Surah 5:43-47 about confirming the teaching of both Moses in 61:5, and Jesus in 61:6.

Then the Quran continues with a rebuke to the critics or idolaters, who want to discredit those who would come to Islam, in 61:

7 Who doth greater wrong than one [the critic] who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam [the surrender to God] And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

8. Their [the critic’s] intention is to extinguish Allah’s Light (by blowing) with their mouths [filling the air with falsehoods against the truth of God’s ‘guidance and Light’]: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

9. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

--- Here again it emphasizes God’s ‘guidance and Light,’ even capitalizing ‘Light’ to identify as the word of God, given by the guidance of His Holy Spirit through believers.

Notice again the terms used to identify the three religions:

Surah 5:44  It was We [God] who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ 

Surah 5:46 And in their footsteps We [God] sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

And Surah 61:9 It is He [God] Who has sent His Messenger [Muhammad] with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all [pagan] religion.

--- We could add the first line of Surah 5:48 To thee (Muhammad) We [God] sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.

In view of all these Scriptures from the Quran, I don’t see three religions, but just One Religion, with three people groups separated only by time.

--- I added some words in square [ ] brackets.

So what are your thoughts on the one basic 'Religion of Truth and Light' for all?

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To continue with Surah 61:

Yusuf Ali: 10  O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a ‘bargain’ that will save you from a grievous Penalty?

Pickthall: 10 O ye who believe! Shall I show you a ‘commerce’ that will save you from a painful doom ?

Khalifa: 10 O you who believe, let Me inform you of a ‘trade’ that will save you from painful retribution.

--- They use the words ‘bargain’, ‘commerce’, and ‘trade’ which means more than just a simple action, but ‘a way of life.’ --- First believing in God, then giving their all to Him, --- and it continues in verse 11:

Yusuf Ali: 11 That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew!

Pickthall: 11 Ye should believe in Allah and His messenger, and should strive for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is better for you, if ye did but know.

Khalifa: 11 Believe in GOD and His messenger and strive in the cause of GOD with your money and your lives. This is the best deal for you, if you only knew.

--- [This speaks of the lifestyle of ‘surrender unto God’ of oneself and their wealth as an ‘exchange’ with God for His eternal life. --- This is the best ‘agreement’ anyone could make.]

Yusuf Ali 12 He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.

Pickthall: 12 He will forgive you your sins and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Gardens of Eden. That is the supreme triumph.

Khalifa: 12 In return, He forgives your sins, and admits you into gardens with flowing streams, with beautiful mansions in the gardens of Eden. This is the greatest triumph.

Yusuf Ali 13 And another (favour will He bestow,) which ye do love, - help from Allah and a speedy victory. So give the Glad Tidings to the Believers.

Pickthall: 13 And (He will give you) another (blessing) which ye love: help from Allah and present victory. Give good tidings (O Muhammad) to believers.

Khalifa: 13 Additionally, you get something you truly love: support from GOD and guaranteed victory. Give good news to the believers.

This fulfills the last line in Surah 5:48 The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute

This shows the true way of life for believers, does it not, to receive the ultimate triumph?

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Is Surah 61:11-13 not the way of salvation for believers, --- to yield themselves as servants of God? ---And God in turn will bless them in this life as well as for eternity.

And it does not just say it here, but also in Surah 9:19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. --- They are not comparable in the sight of Allah, and Allah guides not those who do wrong.

20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. They are the people who will achieve (salvation).

21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah’s presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

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To conclude Surah 61, it returns to the theme of ‘the Ranks,’ when Muhammad took a pledge from his followers to stand together. --- And it makes this comparison in 61:

14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah’s helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: --- But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

--- Though Jesus and the disciples had great opposition from the Pharisees and Jewish leaders, even as Muhammad had great opposition from the Quraysh and the pagans, in both cases they ‘stood together’ as in ‘Ranks,’ and God gave them victory.

This was written before in Surah 3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims [surrendered ones].

Being ‘surrendered ones’ unto God does not in itself give us the ‘power against our enemies,’ but it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit into our lives, that gives us power and guidance from within.

As God gave this verse to Muhammad to answer the critics in Surah 16:102 Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Him).

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Hi 313_Waiter,

I guess this concludes the answer to your question, “Why are the Torah and Injeel considered as important Scriptures in the Quran?”

Surah 61 reveals that the Quran again confirms the former Scriptures, and that there were no new revelations given through Muhammad that were ‘not already given’ through Moses and Jesus, were there?

To believe in truth and righteousness is basic to faith, is it not? --- And we have the reminders that we, as believers, are to stand as in ‘Ranks’ to maintain our witness before others.

--- Since there are no comments, supporting or opposing, --- and no questions, I guess everyone is settled in their own mind where they stand in relationship with God.

The important teaching is that we need the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit to know God’s will in our lives.

102 “The holy Spirit hath delivered it [the revelation] from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Him).”

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"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
about sin, because people do not believe in me;
about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

(John 16:7-15)

There is no way this can be interpreted as the holy spirit, Pneuma Kodesh (in the Christian view), this is talking about something else. The Holy Spirit is with Jesus and Mary and Elizabeth already, as we'll see. Plus back in John 14:16 he refers to it as "another paraclete" not just "a paraclete" - henceforth meaning that Jesus himself was a paraclete. 

Definitely sounds like a Prophet, as Jesus speaks the same of himself.
 
"For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.
(John 12:49-50)

 

So with that out of the way, the concept of "the spirit of truth" is clearly not referring to the "Holy spirit" which is a separate concept, the spirit of truth is also, as quoted, identified as a person.

The biggest debunking of the mainstream Christian view of the Paraclete just being the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit is not something new, it is something that is already present even before Jesus (the Holy Spirit was with John The Baptist before Jesus was baptized).

As the following passage says:

But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John.
He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth,
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God."

(Luke 1:13-16)

"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."
(Luke 1:41)

So we have an instant "no this is nonsense" at the Christian claim about the paraclete, as the Holy Spirit is not something for Jesus to send when it was doing it's thing before Jesus' birth and was with John The Baptist too.

So as already quoted:

"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment"


That becomes gibberish in the mainstream Christian interpretation. Christians do love their gibberish though.

 

 

"This is indeed [a Book] sent down by the Lord of all the worlds, brought down by the Trustworthy Spirit upon your heart (so that you may be one of the warners), in a clear Arabic language. It is indeed [foretold] in the scriptures of the ancients. Is it not a sign for them that the learned of the Children of Israel recognize it? Had We sent it down upon some non-Arab and had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it. This is how We let it pass through the hearts of the guilty.." (Surah 26:192-200)

Edited by al-Muttaqin
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Nonetheless, the Christian texts are only a particular or specific, selection of unreliable texts out of a much wider, vaster literature of 1st-3rd century "Christian" texts. There were over 50 "Gospels" written in the earliest years. There is nothing divine about the selection used for the NT canon, it's just the bias of the early pre-Catholic church. 

The Christian texts are not revelations and therefore must be taken like one would take anything else, whether historical or religious. Fundamentally they are theological texts written to justify the practices of these emerging 2nd century communities. 

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

The Scriptures you quoted in your first post above are accurate, and these Scriptures are approved of God as being true in Surah 3:2 Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.

3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. 4 Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).

When I started reading the Quran with an introduction of the calling of Muhammad as a Prophet, I was pleased to find that God confirmed His former Scriptures, and says, “Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom.”

--- This also proves that the Scriptures in the New Testament were ‘chosen’ from the many gospels and sermons that were available, which were not chosen. --- If this was not of God’s choosing, then He couldn’t have said here in verse 3 “He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.”

Do you not believe this since it is written in the Quran?

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--- The theme of 'the Book' continues in Surah 3:7 He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

--- This says that ‘those of understanding,’ accept the whole Book, which includes the former Scriptures.’

The ‘fundamental writings of established meanings,’ are as it says in other places, ‘That God gave Moses the criterion of right and wrong.’ And it mentions that in Surah 3 above, “He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. 4 Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong).” --- This refers to the Moral Teaching of the Ten Commandments which applies to all mankind.

 

--- The Gospel of Matthew chapters 5-7, updated the Ten Commandments to make them ‘heart attitudes’ to those who are guided by the Holy Spirit.

--- If we use the positives, it reads this way in 3:7 He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: --- but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

--- When God gives a new revelation, ‘men of understanding’ are those who receive it, as it says in Surah 16:102 “The holy Spirit hath delivered it (the new revelation) from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Him).”

 

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

Quote from your post: "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
about sin, because people do not believe in me;
about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
(John 16:7-15)
There is no way this can be interpreted as the holy spirit, Pneuma Kodesh (in the Christian view), this is talking about something else. The Holy Spirit is with Jesus and Mary and Elizabeth already, as we'll see. Plus back in John 14:16 he refers to it as "another paraclete" not just "a paraclete" - henceforth meaning that Jesus himself was a paraclete. 

Definitely sounds like a Prophet, as Jesus speaks the same of himself.

the concept of "the spirit of truth" is clearly not referring to the "Holy spirit" which is a separate concept, the spirit of truth is also, as quoted, identified as a person.
The biggest debunking of the mainstream Christian view of the Paraclete just being the Holy Spirit, is that the Holy Spirit is not something new, it is something that is already present even before Jesus (the Holy Spirit was with John The Baptist before Jesus was baptized).

 

In response to your various comments: --- I will begin with your last statement, that “the Holy Spirit is not something new, it is something that is already present even before Jesus.”

The Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1:2 “And the Spirit of God moved over the face of the waters” --- and began life in the sea.

The Holy Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. --- In the creation of Adam it says in Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man from the dust of the earth and ‘breathed into his nostrils the breath of Life’ and man became a living soul.” --- The Holy Spirit is the Power of God to give Life, or to give new Life in a believer.

However, when Adam and Eve sinned, the Holy Spirit could not remain in their unholy bodies, so they were put out of Paradise and had to be reduced to flesh and blood bodies like the animals had.

This is why we have to be ‘born again’ by the Holy Spirit, before we can enter heaven.

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The above mentioned verses in the topic clearly conclude that Torah and Gospel are the books of Allah and till date their are the commandments of Allah in these books. To add,  they are not fully corrupted but rather have an amount of verses that are unchanged. 

To clarify, check the tafsir (exegete) on these verses by Allama Tabatabai. 

But in the exegete only he says that some of the parts of both the books are corrupted. Reference is quite crystal clear as it comes from verse 187 of Surah Ale Imran (3)

So,  3:187 says:

And when Allāh made a covenant with those who were given the Book: ‘‘You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it’’; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy
(187).

Interesting to see, that in the verse number 5:44 just after the verse where Jews make The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a judge for their matter, it states something quite similar to the above verse regarding protecting the books. A strong command to guard the books is described and the language is that of warning:

QUR’ÃN: Surely We sent down the Torah in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allãh) were judging (matters) for those who were Jews, and (so did) the Divines and the scholars, as they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allãh, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and barter not My signs for a small price; and whoever did not judge by what Allãh revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers: 

[I have only mentioned the exegete of the last part of 5:44]

Quote

 

"therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and barter not My signs for a small price": It branches out from the clause: "Surely We sent down the Torah in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets … " Meaning: As the Torah was sent down by Us, and it contained the laws with which the prophets, the divines and the scholars judged between you, therefore you should not hide anything of it nor should you make any alteration in it, be it for fear or for greed. As for fear, it may happen, if you fear the people and forget your Lord; but you should fear Allãh only, it will liberate you from people's fear; and as for greed, it may take place if you barter the signs of Allãh for a small price, like worldly riches or glory – all of which is transitory and ephemeral.

 

There is also another possibility: It could have branched out from the phrase: "as they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allãh, and they were witnesses thereof"; because the requirement to guard the Book is tantamount to take covenant for guarding it. Thus the meaning will be as follows: We made covenant with them for guarding the Book and made them witnesses for it, that they would not change it, would not be afraid of anyone except Me in making it known and would not barter My signs for small price. Allãh says: And when Allãh made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; … (3:187). Then there came after them an evil posterity who inherited the Book, taking only the frail good of this low life and saying: "It will be forgiven us." And if the like good came to them, they would take it (too). Was not a promise taken from them in the Book that they would not speak anything about Allãh but the truth, and they have read what is in it? And the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil). Do you not then understand? And (as for)those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer; surely We do not waste the reward of the right-doers(7:169-70).

 

And this second meaning is more appropriate, keeping in view the forceful emphasis at the end piece of the subsequent verse: and whoever did not judge by what Allãh revealed, those are they that are unjust.

 

 

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

Quote from your post: "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
 

The word Advocate means ‘one who speaks on behalf of another,’ or a lawyer.

Paraclete means ‘one who comes along side,’ a helper or comforter.

Quote: Plus back in John 14:16 he refers to it as "another paraclete" not just "a paraclete" - henceforth meaning that Jesus himself was a paraclete. 

Response: --- Jesus had called the 12 disciples who were committed to following Him and He began to teach them. They were ordinary Jewish men with all of the prejudices that they learned, so they needed to be changed. --- He starts out with the simple statement in John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments." --- 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” 

The footnote [e] on Helper means, Comforter, Gr. Parakletos.

So Jesus was a Helper or Comforter while He was with them, but He said “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever.”

Jesus was human and would remain with them for awhile, but would die on the cross as a sacrifice for sin. --- After that the Lord appeared in Spirit form to the disciples, and before His final ascent to heaven it says in Acts 1:4 “And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 8 “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

And in Acts 2:1 “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.”

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Hi Zainuu,

Quote from your post: And when Allāh made a covenant with those who were given the Book: ‘‘You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it’’; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy. 3:187
 

Response; --- The Jews were not honorable men and when they were given the Book ‘to make it known to all men,’ they didn’t do that, but they preached their own sermons and got paid for them. --- The fact that they didn’t teach the Scripture, didn’t change the Scripture, any more that when you get someone’s opinion to say that ‘only part of the Scriptures are from God.’ --- Other men's opinions are not greater than God's word, are they?

--- When God confirmed to Muhammad that the former Scriptures were true, and protected, it means that they have not been changed, as it says in Surah 5:48 “To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”

--- Though men disbelieve the Bible, it doesn't change it. --- The Jews rejected Jesus, but that didn't change the fact that He is the Savior of all those who believe in Him as their Savior.

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5 hours ago, placid said:

Other men's opinions are not greater than God's word, are they?

It's not an opinion actually. It's a statement based on the Qur'an itself. I'm not denying that Torah and Gospel have no purity. It has but their is some corruption in it. 

6 hours ago, placid said:

The fact that they didn’t teach the Scripture, didn’t change the Scripture

But they atleast hided the scripture. Does it change the fact that what is preached is different from the real truth and the real commands of Allah are actually hidden?

Doesn't it mean that the sermons they use to preach are their own machinations that include some verses from Allah's book and Allah's command? 

So,  finally "Doesn't preach the scripture is equal to changing the scripture" because what is preached in the name of Torah/Gospel is not Torah/Gospel.

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Hi Zainuu

Quote from your post: But they at least hided the scripture. Does it change the fact that what is preached is different from the real truth and the real commands of Allah are actually hidden?

Doesn't it mean that the sermons they use to preach are their own machinations that include some verses from Allah's book and Allah's command? 

So,  finally "Doesn't preach the scripture is equal to changing the scripture" because what is preached in the name of Torah/Gospel is not Torah/Gospel.

 

Response: --- When we look at the history we see why the Jewish leaders were prejudiced against Muhammad and his teaching. --- When they heard of him in Mecca preaching that there is only one God, they sent and invited him to come to Medina. They listened to him and believed that he would come under their ‘umbrella’ as a prophet. --- But when he began teaching about the ‘fellowship of believers,’ making the lowly Arabs equal to the Jews, they took offence, and began to hinder his work where they could. --- And this is given in Surah 5:

5: 41 O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith (unbelievers); or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

--- This is talking about the Jewish leaders at that time who were trying to find something against Mohammad to discredit him, and that is why they brought cases before him to judge.

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. --- If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For God loveth those who judge in equity.

43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. --- (This reveals that they were hypocrites with evil intent.)

44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

--- You see how 3:187 speaks of them being commanded to make the Scriptures known, but they preached their own message instead to the people. --- But it was only the people within their hearing that would get the wrong message. --- What they said in one sermon, didn’t change the written word of God.

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Hi Zainuu,

There is one more thing to notice about the translations of the Quran. --- What is put in brackets ( ) is usually for identification or clarification, but the words in brackets are not in the original Arabic.

If we go over the former Scriptures in Surah 5, we see that God was instructing Muhammad from verse 41- 43 where He said don’t trust the Jews because they were not people of Faith. --- And 44 says here, they are (no better than) unbelievers.

Yusuf Ali: 5:44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

 

However, in the other prominent English translations Khalifa, Pickthall, Shakir and Sher Ali it simply says, 'they are unbelievers, or disbelievers.' --- (So the ‘no better than’ in brackets was added.)

--- In the second part of the verse God says, ‘for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto.’ --- (Which speaks of the true prophets of old that came after Moses.)

Then God goes on to say to Muhammad, --- ‘therefore fear not men, but fear Me.’

--- This was to give the understanding that the Jews of Muhammad’s time were not men to be ‘feared’ or honored as Jewish leaders who should be listened to, because they were not men of Faith.

 

It says this again 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and --- ‘follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.’ --- This refers back to the Jews of the former verses, and God says again to Muhammad, --- ‘don’t diverge (or be sidetracked) from the Truth that came to you, from Me.’ --- God said, ‘don’t fear men, but fear Me,’

--- This is our obligation too, to follow the truth that God has given, or we may be in danger of God’s judgment.

 

I like your footnote: Quote: Religion is within us divided into three parts namely : What's in our heart, What's on our tongue and what appears from our actions.

--- To apply this to the Jews that were opposing Muhammad, --- What was in their hearts? (Evil intent.) --- What were they speaking? (Lies, and wanting to sell it for a price.) --- And what witness was given from their actions? (That they were unbelievers and hypocrites.)

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@placid

I agree completely brother, jews were corrupt but in verse 5:44:

If you go through the phrases. It is all past tense. 

----they were required to guard of the book of Allah

----they were witnesses

Then, their is a warning revealed to the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). A warning after the previous statements. Further, a clear-cut proof for same thing in 3:187.

Let me clear it. These words 'they were witnesses' and 'they were required to guard of the book of Allah' and then immediately a warning to the present people. 

It reveals that the situation of the past is being said and what the people of the past did should not be repeated 

----Fear not the people, fear Me

----Do not take a small price for my communications.

So, the warning is that, "don't do what was done by the Jews."

And as in 3:187, in order to 'caste behind' or hide the word of Allah for a small price, you need to bring something duplicate which is not completely corrupted but to some extent. Because their are people:

1. A completely new version of the book will create chaos

2. Simply hiding the book will again create a chaos because what would they say to the people? 

So, hiding is equal to corrupting itself. 

If someone hides the truth from you, fine that he will not speak it out but if you will poke him, he has to lie in order to hide it. 

 

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Hi Zainuu,

Quote from your post: And as in 3:187, in order to 'caste behind' or hide the word of Allah for a small price, you need to bring something duplicate which is not completely corrupted but to some extent.

 

I agree with what you say, but the false teachers don’t need a different book to teach from.

We have the example today among Christians Churches where some pastors follow what’s called ‘Liberal Theology,’ where they use part of the Scriptures to preach their sermons from, and ignore or 'hide' the deeper truths. --- And as ministers or pastors, they get paid for their teaching. 

Also there are Churches today who have gay pastors, who teach that the immorality spoken against in the Bible is okay, because much of society welcome the LGBTQ lifestyle. --- The preachers can use the themes of love and peace, and ignore the Scriptures that condemn homosexuality.

There is a prophecy in 2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”

--- If some people can find a Church where the preacher tells them they are okay doing what they are doing, --- that God loves everyone and accepts them with their sins and mistakes, --- then that is a Church they will give their money to. They want the assurance of safety in believing that they are accepted by God.

But Jesus said in Matthew 7:21   “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice iniquity!’

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Hi Zainuu,

I want to mention something else that is important to note:

As I said, the words in brackets ( ) in a translation were not in the original Arabic.

Quote from your post: QUR’ÃN: Surely We sent down the Torah in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allãh) were judging (matters) for those who were Jews, and (so did) the Divines and the scholars, as they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allãh, and they were witnesses thereof;

 

Your translation is close to that of Shakir who included (part);

Surah 5:44 Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof

However, the other translations say this:

Khalifa: 5:44 We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Ruling in accordance with it were the Jewish prophets, as well as the rabbis and the priests, as dictated to them in GOD's scripture, and as witnessed by them.  

Pickthall: 5:44 : Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses.

Sher Ali: 5:44 Surely, WE sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of ALLAH, and because they were guardians over it.

Yusuf Ali: 5:44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto:

Shakir is the only one to include the word (part) in brackets, suggesting that the Jews were not entrusted to guard ‘the whole book’ of God, --- thus casting doubt on the ‘whole book’ of God’s Scriptures.

--- He only used (part) there, because other places he wrote definite verses properly, as in Surah 3:

Shakir: 3:3 He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan. (The criterion of right and wrong.)

3:7 He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, --- and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. --- But none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind (pay attention) except those having understanding.

5:48 And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their (the Jews’) low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you.

--- Words in brackets may be helpful in understanding, but when they cast doubt on God’s word, then they are the ‘allegorical’ part of 3:7 ‘seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.’

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On 10/16/2020 at 2:34 AM, 313_Waiter said:

 

5:47 the verse is connected to the previous verse by the word “and”, the previous verse talks about story of Jesus . So the verse belongs to the time of Jesus .

5:43 on that event Jews came to prophet to ask for judgment on an adulteress. Even from this corrupted torah still law of stoning exist. That’s why Allah is saying when they have torah why they come to you.

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

I would like to add more about the Holy Spirit before we move too far away.

Quote from your post: I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:12-13.

 

Jesus said in John 14:16 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 

--- As you said, Jesus was their Helper or Paraclete (One who came along side them to speak on their behalf.) But Jesus was human and could not remain with them beyond His death.

He said I will pray the Father and He will give you another Helper, Paraclete ‘that He may abide with you forever.’ --- So this Being would have to be a Spiritual guide, because another human could not remain with them forever. --- Then Jesus identifies the Helper as ‘the Spirit of Truth, who was invisible to the world.

--- And the ‘Spirit of Truth’ dwelt ‘with them’ in the Person of Jesus, and would be ‘in them’ when they became Apostles and were cleansed vessels that were able to continue the Ministry of Jesus.

14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” --- The Holy Spirit would indwell the Apostles in the same way that He indwelt Jesus, which is what happened in Acts 2 when they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

--- The boastful Peter who often spoke out of turn and denied knowing Jesus when he was challenged, and who had never quoted a verse of Scripture before, --- now stood up and preached to all of the Jews, quoting the OT prophecy of Joel, and other Scriptures, which led them to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. --- And as a result of his message, which was given through him by the Holy Spirit within, it says in 2:41 “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized, and that day about three thousand souls were added unto them.”

--- So the Holy Spirit brought to Peter’s memory the Old Testament Scriptures that spoke of the coming Savior, and convicted the Jews who were in Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost, and most of the three thousand who believed the Gospel message would be from other countries, so when they returned home, they would take the Gospel message with them, and this is how the Gospel spread to the Jew first, and through them to the Gentiles.

Quote --- Now the verses you quoted: I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the Truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:12-13.

--- Notice these words, ‘When he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all Truth. --- And he will tell you what is yet to come.’

So what the Holy Spirit spoke through the Apostles was the Truth, and the Holy Spirit can speak through men today, to verify the Gospel Message as the Truth, --- which is for Muslims as well as for Christians.

 

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Hi Arminmo,

Quote: Why does the Quran say to judge by the Torah and Injeel?

But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹true˺ believers. (5:43)

So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)

This was 313_Waiter’s introduction, --- and suggesting the negatives about both the Jews and Christians, mentioning the disbelievers, --- But the disbelievers were the rejected ones, --- they were not believers.

--- As I mentioned before, the Jews, who were hypocritical, were trying to catch Muhammad in some violation of their law so they could accuse him, so they brought their cases to him. --- In the same way the Pharisees were trying to catch Jesus in the incident you mentioned from John 8.

QUOTE from your post: 5:47 the verse is connected to the previous verse by the word “and”, the previous verse talks about story of Jesus . So the verse belongs to the time of Jesus. --- 5:43 on that event Jews came to prophet to ask for judgment on an adulteress. Even from this corrupted torah still law of stoning exist. That’s why Allah is saying when they have torah why they come to you.

 

We need to start at Surah 5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto:

--- (Then it speaks of the Jews who considered themselves to be the authority, and expected honor and respect), but God said,  ‘therefore fear not men, (or have regard for these men), but fear me,’

--- ‘and sell not my signs for a miserable price.’ --- No doubt the Jews would pay Muhammad as a judge of their cases, but perhaps God is warning against what they might do to accuse him, kind of like saying, “don’t give them anything they can use against you.” --- Therefore He gave this statement about them. And the verse ends:

 “If any (of them) do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.”

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For God loveth those who judge in equity.

--- Verse 45 is the link between the OT laws, and the Gospel. First referring to the Laws of Moses, where it says:

45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." --- “But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.”

The last line speaks of the Gospel of Love and Grace. Jesus said to the disciples, “If you love Me keep My commandments.” And again in John 14:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

--- And notice that the same warning is given to the unbelievers here as to the Jews, as the verse ends:

“And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are wrong-doers.

So the New Covenant is one of ‘grace and mercy’ from God --- The OT was ‘an eye for an eye,’ but the new message of the Gospel is to show mercy to the offender and respond with love, to win an enemy as a friend. And the ‘action of mercy’ is meant in the last words of the verse:

““But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.” --- These acts of mercy and forgiveness are the ‘good works’ that ‘lay up treasure in heaven.’

--- There is more, so I will continue.

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Hi Arminmo,

To continue:

“But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.” --- These acts of mercy and forgiveness are the ‘good works’ that ‘layup treasure in heaven.’

The next verse is Surah 5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: (or the injil)

Notice that this verse starts with ‘and,’ meaning that it is a continuation of the previous verse, “ And We (God) sent the Gospel meaning ‘Good News.” And the meaning of Injil online is Quote:  "Injil" is the Arabic word for the Greek word "Evangelia" which means Good News. Allah confirms in the Qur'an that the Injil was given to Isa. --- Also Quote: (Ingil or Injeel) is the Arabic name for the Gospel of Jesus. This Injil is described by the Qur'an as one of the four Islamic holy books which was revealed by God, the others being the Zabur (possibly the Psalms), the Tawrat (the Torah), and the Qur'an itself.

46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

It gives the same description for the Torah in verse 44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’

--- Since this refers to the law of Moses, it refers to the first five books, or the Pentateuch. And these have been established from thousands of years ago. --- So within the law of Moses are many other laws than the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, as we will see, including ‘An eye for an eye.’

--- And you referred to the incident of them bringing a woman to Jesus who was an adulteress, saying that ‘the law said to stone her, and what do You say?’

I don’t like to make posts too long, and I want to show where Jesus introduced the new Law of love, mercy, and forgiveness, --- and totally shamed the Pharisees in setting up this situation to catch Him in violating the Law of Moses.

 

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Hi Arminmo,

To go now to the incident  of the adulteress, you mentioned in John 8:2 Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 

3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 

9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 

10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”

11 She said, “No one, Lord.”

And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

--- So the question was. “What did He write on the ground?”

It could be that it was a commandment from the OT in Leviticus 20:10  ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.’

--- He might have written the commandment first, --- and then wrote, “Where is the man?  

If the Pharisees arranged this, then the man would have been the one that they set it up with.

--- And the convicted ones realized that Jesus knew everything, so they went out, from the oldest to the youngest.

And Jesus said to the woman, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

--- If she continued to sin she would later suffer judgment. --- But she called her rescuer ‘Lord,’ so if she repented and followed Him she would be forgiven and find salvation. --- This was the new covenant, the grace and mercy of God.

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On 11/26/2020 at 5:29 PM, placid said:

We have the example today among Christians Churches where some pastors follow what’s called ‘Liberal Theology,’ where they use part of the Scriptures to preach their sermons from, and ignore or 'hide' the deeper truths. --- And as ministers or pastors, they get paid for their teaching. 

Salam Placid,

I am not talking about the current time. The quranic verses that claim corruption or atleast muslims interpret them so are talking in the past tense. 

So, the books were already infiltrated. The question when? is out of the scope. 

So, the argument that I raised in my previous post is about the past tense. The period in which this happened. 

As of today,  if the books are completely pure then the majority of Christians and jews can access it and deduce it in the right way. They can also track down all the priests who are teaching their own sermons.

I am talking about a time when the pure gospel/Torah were taught. 

If they did what is said in the Quran then their can be only 3 cases:

1. Either they corrupted it completely:

But that could have easily came in the eyes of noble christians/Jews of that time.

2. They taught their own falsehood and left the book on it's own:

Even if all the priests planned together to do this (which is highly unlikely) then also the pure books would have exposed their lies their and then only.

3. A slight infiltration in the books with excuses of interpretation or trsnslation etc:

That can easily be the case. As even in the preservation of the Holy Quran, Muslims created ways to overcome these challenges. 

As of the verses 5:43 and 47. They all stay in order with the above conclusion. 

 

Regarding the brackets that you pointed out in the next post:

I completely agree brother that they are just for clarity and if they are used to add interpretation, they must be neglected.  

But here in 5:44: Brackets don't have any such significance to change the meaning.   

Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

And my main focus is on 3:187:  

And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.

This translation has no brackets. 

Further, I already said that 5:43 and 5:47 are a proof that Gospel/Torah were not completely corrupted and had some divine and pure commandments of Allah. While 3:187 is the verse and a little bit 5:44 that points out the corruption in the books. 

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Hi Zainuu,

Quote from your post: Further, I already said that 5:43 and 5:47 are a proof that Gospel/Torah were not completely corrupted and had some divine and pure commandments of Allah. While 3:187 is the verse and a little bit 5:44 that points out the corruption in the books. 

44 Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

While you agree that words in brackets are not from the original Arabic, the only word that gives the thought of corruption is in brackets, where it says (part) of the Book of Allah.

--- This word is not in the other translations that say:

Yusuf Ali: 5:44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto.

--- The Torah refers to the first five Books which contain the creation story, the history of families to the time of Moses, and the giving of the Laws for the Jews to live by. --- These books that are also called the Pentateuch, have been copied and used from those thousands of years ago until now and there could be no corruption in them, --- or God would not have said that they were given to the Jews for ‘guidance and light,’ and that the Jews were to protect them, which they have done in their Scriptures. --- These words could not have been changed by anyone.

However, if anyone wanted to deny the flood or deny certain stories in these books, they could teach their opinions, but that wouldn’t change the thousands of printed copies in circulation.

The suggestion of corruption is the devil’s work to cast down on what God has said is true.

As you said above in your post: I am not talking about the current time. The quranic verses that claim corruption or atleast muslims interpret them so are talking in the past tense. So, the books were already infiltrated. The question when? is out of the scope. So, the argument that I raised in my previous post is about the past tense. The period in which this happened.

--- What verses do “Muslims interpret as claiming corruption of the Torah?”

The sentence in verse 44 that has two interpretations is this: “and do not take a small price for My communications.” --- This either refers to the verses before 44 that questioned why the Jews came to Muhammad for judgment for their own case which they could settle from their own law. This relates back to 42 and 43, and can refer to the fee they would pay Muhammad for judging their case. --- Notice that MY is with a capital M, so that refers to God’s word. --- In this God would be saying to Muhammad, “Don’t give them any words that they can use against you.”

The other interpretation is related to the verse where you say: Quote: And my main focus is on 3:187

And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.

This was the instruction to the Jews who were the guardians of the Scriptures, to teach it, but in the days of Muhammad they were hypocrites and hid the book, or ‘left it on the shelf’ and did their own teaching and got paid for it as preachers do today. --- The fact that they were not ‘men of faith’ didn’t change the book that was ‘laying on the shelf.’ --- They didn’t change the books that were already written.

--- So I guess it is your choice to believe what the Quran says, or the false reports of corruption.

Again in 5:48 To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed.

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5 hours ago, placid said:

While you agree that words in brackets are not from the original Arabic, the only word that gives the thought of corruption is in brackets, where it says (part) of the Book of Allah.

Salaam Placid, 

No that doesn't have any impact on the argument. It is obvious that the order would not be to guard a part of the book. The verse ahead where warning comes up for the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) indicates that this warning came so as to make a reminder for the past. It is not from me actually. I shared a commentary on the verse and on verse 3:187 which indicates the same. 

 

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https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-1/section-9#surah-al-baqarah-verses-78-79
Surah Al-Baqarah, Verses 78-79

وَمِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتَابَ إِلاَّ أَمَانِيَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَظُنُّونَ 

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ 

78. "And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but only fancies and mere conjectures." 
79. " So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say: , This is from Allah, so that they may sell it for a little price, so, woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." 

Occasion of Revelation

A group of the learned men of the Jews altered the epithets of the holy Prophet (S) mentioned in the Turah. This perversion was contrived to protect their social positions and benefits which they used to obtain from their common people over the years. 

When the Prophet of Islam (S) announced his mission and they recognized his epithets coincided with what was mentioned in the Turah, they were afraid that their profits would be endangered if the fact became evident. Therefore, they wrote some epithets completely different from what was actually cited in the Turah. 

The ordinary Jews, who had heard the true epithets of the Prophet of Islam (S),more or less, asked their scholars frequently whether this Prophet was the same promised prophet whose advent they had given them glad tidings of. Then the Jewish savants and scholars decided to recite some perverted verses from the Turah to them in order to make them content thereby. 

The Jewish Learned Men's Plots of Oppression Against the Laymen

Following the previous description about the vicious deeds of the Jews, these verses divide them into two definite groups: the laymen and the deceitful learned men. A few of the Jewish scholars, of course, accepted the truth and believed in Islam and joined the community of Muslims. It says: 

"And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but only fancies and mere conjectures."

The phrase / ummiyun / 'the illiterates' is the plural form of the term / ummi / which, here, means an illiterate person who remains the same in his native endowments as he was when he was born without any external education or training from anyone whosoever; and this state is ordinarily known as illiteracy. 

Or, this case also occurs because some mothers, because of their naive motherly love for their children, ignorantly do not let their children separate from them and go to schools to study. 

The term / amaniyy / is the plural form of / amniyyah / 'conjecture', and, here, it may refer to the privileges, vain desires, wishful thinking and mere conjectures of the Jews that they considered for themselves. 

************************

The second group was the Jewish priests and savants who often altered the facts for their own benefit, as the Qur'an says: 

"So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say: 'This is from Allah..."
“...so that they may sell it for a little price..."
“...so, woe to them for what their hands have written..."
“...and woe to them for what they earn..."

From the last meanings of the verse, it is well understood that they had used impious means and had come up with an incorrect conclusion.

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Hi  313_Waiter,

Quote from your post: The second group was the Jewish priests and savants who often altered the facts for their own benefit, as the Qur'an says: 

"So, woe to those who write the Book with their hands and then say: 'This is from Allah..."

“...so that they may sell it for a little price..."

“...so, woe to them for what their hands have written..."

“...and woe to them for what they earn..."

From the last meanings of the verse, it is well understood that they had used impious means and had come up with an incorrect conclusion.

 

Response: --- Thank you for the explanation. After the Jews in Medina were disappointed with Muhammad’s teaching they tried to discredit him in any way they could, as it says in 5:43 “for they were not people of faith.”

“...so, woe to them for what their hands have written..."

Even as today we have many who write Books and influence people away from the truth. But that doesn’t change the truth that is already written.

As God said in verse 44 “Fear not men, but fear Me.” This was referring to the Jews who were supposed to be spiritual leaders, but were opposing Muhammad and trying to trick him into breaking their laws by bringing their civil cases to him, when they could have settled them on their own.

And the definitive words about those unbelievers is mentioned again in 5:48

48 To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, --- “and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.”

--- The truth was given to Muhammad and the false teachers were trying to distort it. --- So I guess it is the choice of individuals to believe their teachings that ‘do not’ exist today, or to believe the Bible and the verification that it is the truth, given to Muhammad in the Quran, which does exist today.

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Hi  313_Waiter,

I had said above:

--- The truth was given to Muhammad and the false teachers were trying to distort it. --- So I guess it is the choice of individuals to believe their teachings that ‘do not’ exist today, or to believe the Bible, --- and the verification that it is the truth, given to Muhammad in the Quran, --- both of which 'DO' exist today.

The proof that the Scriptures are true is evidenced in their history.  The Torah was confirmed over the centuries --- The Old Testament, with the history of Israel and the writings of the Psalms and Prophets are well documented.

--- The New Testament was written in Greek and Aramaic. And the Scholar Jerome translated the whole Bible into Latin in about 400 AD in the Latin Vulgate, which was used from there on by the Christian Church.

Now notice the timeline. --- These Jews in Medina had their Hebrew Scriptures in about 625 AD, and were not ‘men of faith.’

--- While the Scriptures were being translated into other languages, they were used in Latin in Christian Churches from 400 AD to 1500 AD.

The English language didn’t even come into being till the 700’s or 800’s, long after Muhammad and the Quran.

--- In the 1500’s the Latin Vulgate was translated into English in the Douay-Rheims Version. About the same times King James of England assembled 47 Bible Scholars and Linguists to translate the Bible from the original Hebrew OT, and the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament. --- The King James Bible was the most comprehensive and has been used from the 16th Century until now, and is still used. --- There are many new versions and the most accurate one ‘in My opinion’ is the New King James, which fallows the verse structure of the King James, but without the ‘old English.’ --- The other reason I believe it is the best is because it was produced about 1980 with reference to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were unearthed in the 1950, and contain scrolls or fragments of every Book of the OT except one. --- Another evidence that God’s word is true.

--- If you want to do a check on languages from different paths, check the New Testament of the Douay-Rheims Version with the King James Version, and then with the New King James. --- You can find them and others on  BibleGateway.com

--- To think that some dishonorable Jews in 625 AD had any influence on the Scriptures is quite ridiculous, is it not?   

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