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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why does the Quran say to judge by the Torah and Injeel?

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I’ll explain these briefly in a couple of hours.... don’t lose hope. 

Hi 313_Waiter,   Quote from your post: But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹t

Hi 313_Waiter,  No problem, the Scriptures have not changed.  And when you mention the instructions in the Torah for the Jews, they are mainly the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20. --- In sim

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Hi Three,

I agree that the great commandment was given to the Jews in Deuteronomy, and we have comparisons in the Gospel and the Quran.

From Hebrew Scripture – The Sh’ma. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.” Leviticus 19:18 “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

From Christian Scripture Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus answered, “‘You shall love the Love your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

From the Quran, Love of God: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 3:31. --- Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger. But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. 3:32.

Love of kinfolk and neighbors: Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess. 4:36.

Love of fellow man:  It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and who set slaves free. 2:177.

A Common Word: The Quran: “Say: We believe in God that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction from any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.” 2:136.

“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). 49:13.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed. --- To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way.   If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues (good works). The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute. 5:48.

We have a fairly good consensus for our three religions, that we are to Love God first, and then to love our family, neighbors and our fellow man.

--- The one you love to dislike, said this in Romans 13:8 ‘Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.’

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A note to the Moderators:

I looked at my Profile and saw a picture of a handsome fellow that doesn’t look anything like me, --- as I had never submitted a picture.

And in the category of ‘Religion,’ I would like to have it changed back to ‘Christian.’ --- I don’t feel quite right with ‘Shia Islam’ when I write from a Christian perspective. --- I checked to find that Son of Placid is listed as Christian.

--- This topic deals with our three religions and I believe it is the best subject for us to dwell on. --- In reading the Quran right through, I found so much that is harmonious between Christians and Muslims. --- The times and years have separated us, but the Scriptures have not changed. We can still study them and memorize the verses that are special to us.

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I am sorry. It seems that I again have said too much on this subject of ‘togetherness,’ which is unfortunate. --- I have said that Surah 5:48 is a favorite verse because it speaks of our three different ‘faiths in God,’ and it ends with the last line of the verse which says, “It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.”  

So, how long will we ‘dispute,’ before we ‘discuss’ the wonderful things that God has revealed in the Gospels and the Quran, that we can agree on?

Dave said on page 1: “As a Follower of Jesus, I need to confess that through the ages, and even today, many people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teaching of their book.  As far as we have hurt other communities I want to ask for forgiveness from those who have been offended.”

--- I can agree with him and say, “I am sorry for the lack of knowledge of some who have presented the Gospel message, which comes across in a negative way to Muslims, as though we are in a competition where only one faith can be right.” --- Again in 5:48 God said, “To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues (good works). The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.”

Dave and I have come to Shiachat on a friendly basis to learn from you and answer your questions or misunderstandings, --- so this is the best topic to discuss our differences.

--- We are presently in a time of great tribulation in the world with the covid pandemic and extreme weather activities of tornados, fires and floods. --- A time when we really need to look to God for guidance.

--- My profile should read, Religion: Christian

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:50 AM, THREE1THREE said:

An example of some of the false laws, an Israelite can charge interest to the gentile but is prohibited to charge interest to another fellow Israeli

Isn’t it same in Shi’a Islam brother

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Tafsir mizan says that only some parts of the Torah are corrupter (see 5:43 and 5:47)

https://almizan.org

 

Study Quran:

Quote

This verse, then, along with vv. 44–47, indicates that the Torah and the Gospel remain valid sources of moral and legal judgment and guidance for Jews and Christians, respectively, even after the coming of the Prophet—indeed, even in his presence,

 

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On 10/22/2020 at 2:50 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Don’t listen to any of these comments by the Paulines. 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:50 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Another arrogant Pauline who refuses to use his head.

On 10/23/2020 at 1:23 PM, THREE1THREE said:

These Christians hold many values of Christ unlike the trinitarians who are just plain stupid. 

 

On 10/23/2020 at 10:48 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Your interpretations have always been rubbish which is no surprising since ur a Pauline. 

What is your problem? May God inflict a severe and harsh punishment on you for your unbelievably poor manners. Manners so poor that they pushed a brother out of Shia Islam. For me, a big part of why I'm Muslim is because nobody behaves like us, so if I was a convert and had a Muslim speak to me the way you did to him, I'd consider going back too.

You have issues, often going on unhinged rants against Christians. You're like a salafi for Christians and later you will reap what you've sown on Judgement Day. AS IF Imam Ali ever spoke to Christians/about Christians in the disgusting manner that you do. You had better take this blunder as a life lesson and show people respect when you speak to them. AstakhfirAllah

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On 10/23/2020 at 12:50 AM, THREE1THREE said:

I urge everyone to ignore placid since he is no different to a wahabi arrogant and staunch. As imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) says, “silence is the best reply to a fool”

I'm mind blown. Placid, please take time off and think things through carefully, a jerk on the internet shouldn't be the catalyst for jumping ship.

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Hi 313_Waiter,

Quote: This verse, then, along with vv. 44–47, indicates that the Torah and the Gospel remain valid sources of moral and legal judgment and guidance for Jews and Christians, respectively, even after the coming of the Prophet—indeed, even in his presence,

Thank you for your confirmation on these verses. --- I watched the video above and see that half of the discussion was about the accuracy of the Scriptures in the OT, not necessarily in the NT, --- and the other half was about Jesus as the Son of God, or as some have said that Jesus is God. --- This has been a long time discussion but there is no place in the New Testament or the Quran where it says that Jesus is God, --- However, it does say in both the Gospels and the Quran that Jesus is the 'Son of God.'

In the Gospel of Luke it speaks of the angel Gabriel coming to Mary in 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 

--- Notice that it says “That Holy One will be ‘called’ the Son of God.” --- And Jesus has been called the Son of God since then.

In the comparable verses in the Quran it says in Surah 3:45 “Behold!” the angel said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. 46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." 47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

And it says in Surah 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

--- It is not ‘befitting,’ --- ‘it is out of the ordinary,’ --- and this is why Jesus was called a ‘unique’ Son, a ‘one of a kind’ something that happened only once to bring in mankind’s redemption. --- God didn't really 'beget' a Son, but when He 'decreed a plan,' and 'determined the matter,' --- He only says to it, "Be", and it is. 

And it says, “Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.”

--- If this is a statement of truth in the Quran, why do Muslims dispute it? --- Are there contradicting verses that say God didn't do this?

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15 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Placid, please take time off and think things through carefully

Lol go see my comments with him. He has no evidence nor thinks carefully nor (most importantly) uses his rationality no matter how much you try to make it work. 

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20 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Isn’t it same in Shi’a Islam brother

No we can’t, it is haram but some jurists give some exceptions but for the most part jurists say it’s haram, the reasons are pretty obvious and reasonable if you ask me. 

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18 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

No we can’t, it is haram but some jurists give some exceptions but for the most part jurists say it’s haram, the reasons are pretty obvious and reasonable if you ask me. 

Which jurists? What does Sayed Sistani say (most famous)?

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13 hours ago, placid said:

the son of Mary

the son of Mary not son of God because he created  like prophet  Adam (عليه السلام) but even he wasn't  son of God too.

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14 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

@guest 2025 deal with that ridiculous claim plz. I would Iike to see you finish him off like Sayyed Ammar with the Sunni’s. 

No I won't "deal with him" because I follow the example of Imam Ali and speak to others with respect and kindness. You however, will have the severe sin of pushing a person out of Shia Islam from how disgusting your manners are in your book on Judgement Day. You are like the anti muslims who say something stupid then spam a dozen quotes, completely oblivious and ineffective. I'm still waiting to see the sunni who became shia because of Ammar's out of left field sunni bashing. What is in your head when you speak, do you think if you keep insulting them they'll think "Wow! I guess I am an idiot!" ?

You are reported and I advice others to do the same. We should not tolerate people with no adab as there can be severe consequences as seen in this very thread.

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Hi Guest 2025

Quote from your post: --- I'm mind blown. Placid, please take time off and think things through carefully, a jerk on the internet shouldn't be the catalyst for jumping ship.

 

Thank you for your support. --- But as I explained above I am a Christian and on my Profile it should read, Religion: Christian. --- I had written between the years 2005 to 2015 and occasionally since, to have the many posts, and my Profile had always said Christian, --- so for clarification I asked the Moderators to change it back, so we will leave it to them to do that.

 

While THREE does a lot of reading and makes comments, it says this in the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

--- I answer questions using Scripture references from the Bible and the Quran, if there are objections to what I write, then if proper I will respond to them.

I believe it is time for us to discuss the positives and resolve the old arguments that are not the important part of God’s message to us. --- Our world is now in a state of tribulation and the world governments are brought to their knees as to how to survive. But for us individuals, God has a plan of salvation.

--- I had said this before, “We didn’t ask to be born, --- we had no choice in the matter. But we do have the opportunity to choose our destiny.” --- I would like someone to write out the Shia plan of salvation. --- What gives you the assurance of salvation for now, and the future?

To quote again the last line of Surah 5:48 “The goal of you all is to Allah (to go to heaven to be with Him). --- It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.”

--- Is it not up to us to discover the ‘truth of the matters’ which are disputed?

 

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4 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

You are reported and I advice others to do the same

I suggest you leave 2020 and the next heats coming because harshness is needed when it’s due. If no thought is put into their comments and they will be put on. Have you seen the way imam Hassan puts it on arrogant ppl ? these staunch old men and evangelicals need to be put on like that until they have no arguments to bring forth. And btw Sayyed Ammar has attracted sunni’s to Shia Islam, some of them are here lol. You can report me but others won’t I’m serving a greater service for them

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3 hours ago, placid said:

Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 

Context buddy look at the context it’s a prophecy which got fulfilled, and the Paulines most definitely to fit the criteria. 

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Hi Ashvazdanghe,

Quote from your post: the son of Mary not son of God because he created  like prophet  Adam (عليه السلام) but even he wasn't  son of God too.

If you are saying that Jesus was ‘created’ like Adam was created, then that is okay, because it says that Jesus was like a ‘second’ Adam, in Romans 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. --- 15 For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 19 For as by one man’s (Adam’s) disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s (Jesus Christ’s) obedience many will be made righteous.

As I said above: --- God didn't really 'beget' a Son, but when He 'decreed a plan,' and 'determined the matter,' --- He only says to it, "Be", and it is. --- And the action was that the Holy Spirit planted the new Life in the womb of Mary, so the conception was without a human father. --- So Jesus was human and it says in Luke 1:35 “That Holy One to be born will be ‘called’ the Son of God.”

It says in Surah 3:45  Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.”

I am sorry that Muslims have a problem with the term ‘son of God’ which is used also for believers in the NT but with a lower case 's'. --- It says of Jesus in Hebrews 2:9 “We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”

--- Jesus had to be human like us, to suffer and be tempted, but He was without sin, and it says this in Romans 8:15 (As believers in Jesus Christ), we received the Spirit of ‘adoption’ by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. 

And it says in verse 14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

--- Jesus taught the disciples to pray, “Our Father who is in heaven,” so that identifies believers as children of God. Also it says in the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

And it actually does call Adam the ‘son of God’ in the genealogy of Mary, in Luke 3:36 --- the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

--- It says this in Surah 5:48 “To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”  

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21 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

I suggest you leave 2020 and the next heats coming because harshness is needed when it’s due. If no thought is put into their comments and they will be put on. Have you seen the way imam Hassan puts it on arrogant ppl ? these staunch old men and evangelicals need to be put on like that until they have no arguments to bring forth. And btw Sayyed Ammar has attracted sunni’s to Shia Islam, some of them are here lol. You can report me but others won’t I’m serving a greater service for them

Be quiet and stay quiet. You are nothing like Imam Hassan and he would be disgusted by you pushing a person out of Shia Islam. 

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16 hours ago, placid said:

the son of Adam, the son of God

Hi Quran is clear about it that Allah/God has no son so you only can prove it just from distorted translation of Bible.

Quote

Say, ‘He is Allah, the One. (1) Allah is the All-embracing. (2) He neither begat, nor was begotten, (3) nor has He any equal.’ (4)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/112:1

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/112:1

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Hi Ashvazdanghe,

Quote from your post: the son of Adam, the son of God

Hi Quran is clear about it that Allah/God has no son so you only can prove it just from distorted translation of Bible.

Say, ‘He is Allah, the One. (1) Allah is the All-embracing. (2) He neither begat, nor was begotten, (3) nor has He any equal.’ (4)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/112:1

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)

 

In response, I agree. --- God created the angels, then He created Adam through making a body and “breathing into his nostrils the breath of life,” Genesis 2:7

--- In the creation of Jesus it says that the Holy Spirit ‘came upon Mary’ and planted a new life in her womb. Luke 1:35.

 

As honorable men I don’t think it is necessary to insult me by suggesting that I ‘distort,’ or use ‘distorted’ Scriptures in quoting what the verses say.

As it says in Surah 5:48 “To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”  

--- Also it says in John 4:24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” --- God does not ‘beget’ or ‘reproduce’ physical beings, but God can ‘create’ what He determines to, can He not?

It says in Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was ‘made’ (or created) a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death.” --- And as I said above, Jesus was human, born from a human mother, but created without sin, as He came to be the Savior ‘from sin’ for those who believe.

--- And notice carefully that it says, in Romans 8:15 that we, as believers, are ‘adopted’ into the family of God, as ‘children of God.’

--- The term ‘son of God’ doesn’t need to be a stumbling block to cause division as it has done for years. --- I believe we can get beyond this and study together.

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Hi 313_Waiter,

--- I would like to continue on your topic, so let us accept that the former Scriptures and the Quran are accurate to use for the purpose of pursuing the beliefs of our three faiths, as you said.

Quote from your post: This verse, then, 5:43 along with vv. 44–47, indicates that the Torah and the Gospel remain valid sources of moral and legal judgment and guidance for Jews and Christians, respectively, even after the coming of the Prophet—indeed, even in his presence,

--- Though you asked the question with a negative content in the following verses:

Quote: But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹true˺ believers. (5:43)

The positive response for the Jews is in the verse after 43, which says in 5:44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book.

Quote: --- And, So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)

And for the Christians, 5:46 And in their footsteps We (God) sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law (given to Moses) that had come before him: a ‘guidance and an admonition’ to those who fear Allah.

--- So that speaks clearly that God gave the Law, starting with the Ten Commandments, to Moses. and it confirms this in other verses where it calls the Law by another title, after Moses came out of Egypt and went up the mountain to get it, in Surah 2:49 And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk, who were afflicting you with dreadful torment, 002.050 And when We brought you through the sea and rescued you, and drowned the folk of Pharaoh in your sight.
002.051 And when We (God) did appoint for Moses forty nights (of solitude), and then ye chose the calf, when he had gone from you, and were wrong-doers.
002.052 Then, even after that, We pardoned you in order that ye might give thanks.
002.053 And when We (God) gave unto Moses the Scripture and the criterion (of right and wrong), that ye might be led aright.
002.054 And when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Ye have wronged yourselves by your choosing of the calf (for worship) so turn in penitence to your Creator. --- So the Law was called the ‘Criterion (of right and wrong.’)

--- And in Surah 25 called ‘Criterion, or the standard,’ it says, 35 (Before this,) We (God) sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

36. And We command: "Go ye both, to the people who have rejected our Signs:" And those (people) We destroyed with utter destruction.

37. And the people of Noah, - when they rejected the apostles, We drowned them, and We made them as a Sign for mankind; and We have prepared for (all) wrong-doers a grievous Penalty.

--- So the proof of Moses getting the basic ‘moral code,’ or ‘laws of right and wrong’ which applies to our three religions is well imbedded in the Quran, is it not?

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On 11/1/2020 at 12:53 AM, placid said:

As honorable men I don’t think it is necessary to insult me by suggesting that I ‘distort,’ or use ‘distorted’ Scriptures in quoting what the verses say.

It’s not an insult since I made a whole thread refuting ur ridiculous baseless claim of the Quran agreeing with the Corrupted parts of the bible. You still have not read it. 

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It is interesting to read what is being discussed here.  Yes, polite and civil discussion and explinations help us to understand each other and learn what God wants us to understand.

Some of this thread has been about the term Son of God (referring to Jesus the Messiah) and sons of God (referring to those who are members of God's family).  I read these verses today as I waited in God's presence and felt God impress them on my heart.  Maybe they are relevant here.

They come from the letter of Paul to the Galatian Christians chapter 4

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

I know some people on this forum don't like what Paul wrote, but let's put that aside for the time and look at the words themselves.

This speaks clearly about Jesus Son of Mary (born of a women)  Jesus was born like you and me and as such he was also born into a people who had to obey the Torah of Moses.  The reason for this is stated that he came in this way to redeem human people subject to law (Torah/Sharih) and to offer people a new relationship with God.

What an amazing offer to be addopted into God's family as his son.

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Aside from the fact that what Jews and Christians call the "Torah" and "Gospel" are 3rd person narratives written by scribes and priests collected from Oral tradition. Beside that, and now 3rd person narratives are NOT the unadulterated, direct speech of God. Aside from that, I recommend some of these books on the subject of corruption;

"Parallel Gospels" by Zeba A. Crook

"Introduction to the Critical Study of the Hebrew Bible" by J. Weingreen

"Prolegomena to the History of Israel" by  Julius Wellhausen

"Hunting for the word of God" by Sami Ameri 

"The text of the New Testament; it's transmission, corruption and restoration" by Bruce M. Metzger and Bart Erhman

"Myths and Mistakes in New Testament Criticism" by Elijah Hixson and Peter J. Gurry

 

When it comes to through critical examination of these Biblical texts there is no shortage of problems from all fronts. 

From the offset though, as what causes so many Christians to apostatize is the endless contradictions between the four "Gospel(s) according to", all which give off the impression that the events of Jesus' life took place in four alternate universes :hahaha:

As for the Torah, we know that the Pentateuch is compiled from multiple sources before it's time. The general theory is known as the documentary hypothesis. The Torah we have now is from the period of Ezra, as confirmed multiple places in Old Testament, Apocrypha and in the Talmud. 

 

The Qur'an obviously does not in any way see the Bible as authentic, and never actually mentions the Bible. However it speaks of Jews and Christians in relative position to the revelations given to their Prophets. 

The Qur'an always talks about Moses receiving and Jesus receiving (in the same manner that the Qur'an itself is being received by Muhammad). Whereas with the Torah and Gospel we have the obvious paradox of that the Torah can't be the Torah if Moses is a character within it, plus the Pentateuch itself speaks of a Torah. Then with the Gospel is the same issue. Matt/Mark/Luke and John cannot be "The Gospel" when Jesus is a character within it. Plus the term "Gospel" itself is used within those books to refer to a doctrine that John the Baptist and Jesus taught - therefore being representative of what Jesus was revealed by God.

 

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RE:semantics. 

Take these two as glaring examples: 

The LORD said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone with the Torah and commandments I have written for their instruction.” (Exodus 24:12)

Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. (Matthew 9:35)

 

Now none of the Bible is self-referential (unlike the Qur'an), so Exodus 24 is not talking about the five books of Moses and Matthew 9 is not talking about the four biographies of Jesus. 

This here is still one of the best models for understanding this, both in terms of what the Biblical texts themselves say and the Qur'an's model for Prophethood and Revelation:

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Edited by al-Muttaqin
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5 minutes ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Now none of the Bible is self-referential (unlike the Qur'an), so Exodus 24 is not talking about the five books of Moses and Matthew 9 is not talking about the four biographies of Jesus. 

The Quran mentions the word “Quran” but in an appropriate manner, usually the Quran calls the Quran “the book” and also sometimes the Torah and Evangel. If u have a closer look at the Torah you can see that someone is narrating what Allah is speaking and then what the prophet is speaking and also the prophet narrates what Allah has said to him. The Torah is pretty much like a Hadith/historical book. 
 

the Gospel is a biography of a man/prophet who is Jesus son of Mary the actual words of Christ are scripture but the black parts aren’t they just help us understand the context of what’s going on. 

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

I see that you question the validity of the Torah and Gospels as God’s word to the people, over the years of history. --- This contradicts what we have acknowledged, that the verses of Surah 5:43-48 --- ‘indicate that the Torah and the Gospel remain valid sources of moral and legal judgment and guidance for Jews and Christians, respectively.’

I see in your list of writings, you do not have the first Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. --- I have a quote that says, ‘when the Scholar Jerome translated the Bible from Hebrew and Greek to Latin, about 400 AD, that there was a copy of Matthew’s Gospel in Hebrew in the Library (I believe in Alexandria).”

--- Matthew's Gospel in Hebrew was written ‘while it happened,’ as Matthew was the Scribe for Jesus, when they travelled together, --- Jesus and the 12 disciples,  who later became His Apostles, except for one.

The three Greek Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, are called ‘Synoptic.’ The word ‘synoptic’ literally means, ‘together sight,’ referring to the common ‘source’ of the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. --- They are not ‘copies’ of the Hebrew Gospel but are written for different readers, so they have different emphasis.

The Greek Matthew was written for the Jews, as was the Hebrew Matthew, with much prophecy and fulfilment. --- The shorter Gospel of Mark was written when he and Peter were ministering in Rome. Therefore, with input from Peter, Mark’s Gospel was written for the Romans. --- Luke was a physician and a Greek Historian so he wrote his Gospel account for the Greek readership. --- He addressed it to a countryman, Theophilus, with these words in Luke 1:3 “It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus.” 

--- John’s Gospel was written years later having access to the first three, and it was written as a general Gospel account with emphasis on the Holy Spirit. --- These Scriptures were inspired, as Peter said in 2 Peter 1:21 “For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Spirit.”

I notice you listed “The sayings of Jesus,” which I understand was the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, written in Hebrew. --- The reason other books and writings were rejected from any Canon of Scripture was because they were not ‘inspired writings.’ --- God knew who He appointed as Prophets and Teachers, and inspired them to write His words, as He revealed the Law to Moses and had it written down for the Jewish People.

 

I guess then for your satisfaction, if we are going to establish the ‘truth of the matter’ from the last line of Surah 5:48, we will have to find the proof of our three faiths in the Quran.

  

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Hi 313_Waiter,

To continue with your theme, there is another Surah that speaks of our three religions, and it is Surah 61, ‘The Ranks.’

Please correct me if I a wrong, but I believe it was when God spoke to Muhammad about again making contact with Mecca, with the plan to one day return. --- But first to make contact and arrange for a day of celebration in Mecca. --- Muhammad and a large group of Muslims were on their way to Mecca, but they were warned by a traveler that the Quraysh were waiting on the road ahead. --- At that they took a detour to skirt Mecca and approach it from a different place, --- the valley of  al-Hudaybiyya, just outside Mecca.

Quote from Wikipedia:  According to Watt, although Muhammad's decision to make the pilgrimage was based on his dream, he was at the same time demonstrating to the pagan Meccans that Islam does not threaten the prestige of their sanctuary, and that Islam was an Arabian religion.[60]

Negotiations commenced with emissaries going to and from Mecca. While these continued, rumors spread that one of the Muslim negotiators, Uthman ibn Affan, had been killed by the Quraysh. Muhammad responded by calling upon the pilgrims to make a pledge not to flee (or to stick with Muhammad, whatever decision he made) if the situation descended into war with Mecca. This pledge became known as the "Pledge of Good Pleasure" (Arabic: بيعة الرضوان‎, bay'at al-ridhwān) or the "Pledge of the Tree." News of Uthman's safety, however, allowed for negotiations to continue, and the treaty of Hudaybiyyah, scheduled to last ten years was eventually signed between the Muslims and the Quraysh. The main points of treaty were the following: --- The two parties and their allies should desist from hostilities against each other.[61] --- Muhammad, should not perform Hajj this year but in the next year, Mecca will be evacuated for three days for Muslims to perform Hajj.

--- So Surah 61 was called ‘the ranks’ as explained as a pledge of ‘standing together as a wall’ to survive or die together, as is pictured in 61:4 Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid structure.

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Hi 313_Waiter,

We see again in Surah 61 that it mentions the three religions  and speaks of Loyalty in each, starting with verse 1 All that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth glorifieth  Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.  --- (We need to be loyal to Him.)

Then a challenge in verses 2 and 3:
2 O ye who believe! Why say ye that which ye do not? --- (You who believe, why do you not do, what you say you believe, by right action?)
3 It is most hateful in the sight of Allah that ye say that which ye do not. --- (To profess belief in God, but to fail to be loyal in that commitment to Him, is hateful.)

--- And then the pledge of ‘togetherness’ that Muhammad got from his followers, not knowing what the immediate future held for them.

4 Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.

 

Then it goes on to the loyalty of Moses to God even during the rebellion of the Jews.

5 And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Why persecute ye me, when ye well know that I am Allah's messenger unto you ? So when they went astray Allah sent their hearts astray. And Allah guideth not the evil-living folk. --- When people go astray from God, they have no more guidance from Him, so that is why believers must be faithful in their commitment.

The Surah is divided into three parts for the three messengers, --- verse 5 for Moses, --- verse 6 for Jesus, --- verses 7-13 for Muhammad, --- and verse 14, as a comparison.

--- This is an interesting study for me so I hope you will join in.

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As I said before, my Profile should read ‘Religion: Christian,’ --- so I will continue Surah 61 from a Christian perspective.

 

61: 6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

--- The first part says, "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me,”

Compare this with Surah 5:46 “And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We (God) sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him:”

And again 5:48 “To thee (Muhammad) We (God) sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:”

--- So it has to be the truth, does it not?

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Surah 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

To continue: --- I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."

The Messenger to come after Jesus, was the Holy Spirit, as it says in John 14:15 Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper (e; Comforter, Gr. Parakletos), that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” 

The disciples were learning from Jesus as they travelled with Him, and now they were entering a new phase of ministry where they would be recognized as His disciples, and expected to reflect His love and grace to the people. --- In John 13, Jesus had washed the disciples’ feet, and called for their loyalty.  In a solemn moment He said, “One of you will betray Me,” and at that, Judas, who was plotting with the Pharisees, left them. --- He said to the eleven in John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

--- This is why in 14:15 He said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” --- The qualification for the next step started with the love for Jesus Christ and God. --- And this was the commitment, --- ‘If you love Me, keep My commandments,’ which involved showing that love to others.

--- These are the Scriptures that show that Christians are ‘people that love’ and they are supposed to be recognized by their love one for another.

I am sorry for the many who claim to be Christians, but who do not show love.

--- Jesus was speaking to the eleven who would be His Apostles after He left them on earth, so He was preparing them for their future ministry.

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