Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Why does the Quran say to judge by the Torah and Injeel?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member
Quote

But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹true˺ believers. (5:43)

Quote

So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 84
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I’ll explain these briefly in a couple of hours.... don’t lose hope. 

Hi 313_Waiter,   Quote from your post: But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹t

Hi 313_Waiter,  No problem, the Scriptures have not changed.  And when you mention the instructions in the Torah for the Jews, they are mainly the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20. --- In sim

  • Veteran Member

Hi 313_Waiter,

 

Quote from your post: But why do they come to you for judgment when they ˹already˺ have the Torah containing Allah’s judgment, then they turn away after all? They are not ˹true˺ believers. (5:43)

So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)

 

If you go back a few verses in Surah 5, you will see that the Jews were always trying to have Muhammad say something, or make a judgment that they could criticize him for. --- But God gave him this verse, 5:42

42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto:

--- The Ten Commandments was the ‘code of ethics’ that the Jews were to follow. --- The Jews were given ‘guidance and light’ to live by, so they could judge their own cases rather than bring them to Muhammad, but as it says of those in 43, ‘they are not (really) People of Faith.’

 

Then the verses for the Christians says that they also were given ‘guidance and light,’ so they are to judge by their new laws of love, justice, and mercy.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--- If  Christians do not live by the teachings of Christ, they are no better than those who disregard God, so they are hypocrites.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi 313_Waiter, 

No problem, the Scriptures have not changed. 

And when you mention the instructions in the Torah for the Jews, they are mainly the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20. --- In simplified form they say;

1 Have no other Gods before Him, --- 2 Worship God only, --- 3 Use God’s name only in ways that honor Him, not in vain, --- 4 Respect the Sabbath or seventh day, that is set aside for rest and worship, --- 5 Respect and honor your father and mother, --- 6 You shall not murder, but respect human life, --- 7 You shall not commit adultery, --- 8 You shall not steal what belongs to others, --- 9 Do not bear false witness or lie to, or about, others. --- 10 Do not covet, or desire what belongs to others, be satisfied with such things that you have.

These are also found similarly in the Quran.

And there is this great commandment in Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” --- So this added commandment of love, which is the theme of the Gospel.

 

When Jesus was asked by a lawyer, “Which is the greatest commandment? --- He replied in Matthew 22:37 “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- Of the 10, the first four commandments deal with one’s relationship with God, to love and worship Him. The fifth commandment deals with parents who we are to love and honor, --- and the last five commandments deal with our neighbors, whom we are to love, even as we love ourselves.

If we love our neighbors we would not do harm to them or their property.

 

In the New Testament, Jesus gave us this Scripture as a set of attitudes for Christians to follow in Matthew 5:

2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit (the humble) for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." 

4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

--- If Christians believe in God and live according to His will for our lives, we are to be like 'a light in this world of darkness.' 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

My guess would be because the Torah and Injeel contain the same message as the Quran. It's just the Jews and Christians, usually the very powerful ones, who have changed them over the years to reflect their own beliefs and presuppositions about how a human is supposed to live their life.

I'm probably incorrect though ,so don't take anything I say as factual. I'm not an expert on these matters.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi Abdul-Hadi,

 

Quote: My guess would be because the Torah and Injeel contain the same message as the Quran.

 

The Scriptures have not been changed, but you are right in this statement, because Mohammad confirms the Scriptures in the same Surah 5 where it mentions the ‘guidance and light’ given to both the Jews and the Christians.

Surah 5:48 To thee (Muhammad) We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. --- To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

--- In the Pickthall translation it says, --- ‘So vie one with another in good works.’

The verb ‘to vie’ means to ‘strive’ in friendly competition as in a race, trying to outdo one another, --- and here, outdoing one another in good works.

--- Think what a different world it could be if Jews, Christians and Muslims were each trying to outdo one another in good works. This would show itself in helping our neighbors and those less fortunate, to bring them up to a higher level.

As this verse says, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, were each given a divine law or covenant, --- which they are to live by in service to God.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
5 hours ago, placid said:

Hi Abdul-Hadi,

 

Quote: My guess would be because the Torah and Injeel contain the same message as the Quran.

 

The Scriptures have not been changed, but you are right in this statement, because Mohammad confirms the Scriptures in the same Surah 5 where it mentions the ‘guidance and light’ given to both the Jews and the Christians.

Surah 5:48 To thee (Muhammad) We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. --- To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

--- In the Pickthall translation it says, --- ‘So vie one with another in good works.’

The verb ‘to vie’ means to ‘strive’ in friendly competition as in a race, trying to outdo one another, --- and here, outdoing one another in good works.

--- Think what a different world it could be if Jews, Christians and Muslims were each trying to outdo one another in good works. This would show itself in helping our neighbors and those less fortunate, to bring them up to a higher level.

As this verse says, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, were each given a divine law or covenant, --- which they are to live by in service to God.

How would you account for the writings of Paul who turned Jesus ((عليه السلام)) into a divine figure or are these not what are counted as the scriptures in Islam? What I mean by this is, is only the actual teachings of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) like the Sermon on the Mount and the red letters of the Gospels rather than the entirety of the four gospels themselves?

I come out of a Christian family background, so I'm used to the entirety of the Bible (old and new testaments as per the Ukrainian Orthodox church) being treated as the "inspired word of God ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))"

Edited by Abdul-Hadi
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest OnPoint

Salam

You are referring to the 5th chapter. Pay attention.

The Torah introduces Seth as the one set by God and the books all the way to Gospels are clear in that, the chosen images and guides of God are the means, and those names of God like Samuel (Samuel means name of God) - if humans held on to them, instead of those who named themselves as names of God (called themselves leaders and moral authorities) everything would have been fine.

In fact, the main theses of the Torah is obviously the Wilayah of God's chosen is not to be mixed with fallible leaders who corrupt the religion. It's Strongly emphasizing on God's chosen.

The Torah contains clear Prophecies of Mohammad (s),  Mohammad (s) claimed to not be there is no different then Sunnis claims there is no mention of Imams (a) in Quran. It's bogus and no matter if all humans say it except one, God will not give us an excuse to follow all humans and ignore the one who speaks the truth about that.

The Torah is clear vividly that Mohammad (s) is not a judge and you aren't even allowed to make a person a ruler or judge, but that God is the judge and ruler.  He revealed the Torah so that Prophets judge through in truth for the submitters as well as the religious scholars of law, to judge for both the Prophets of children of Israel were a central axis.

The Quran never said for people of the Torah to judge by the Torah, and people for the gospels to judge by Gospels, pay attention to what it really says and not what Satan tells you it says and what most humans being under dark sorcery believe it says.

It says the Torah was revealed so people of the Torah judge by what God REVEALED.  And that Gospels was revealed so that people of it judge by what God REVEALED,

Yes before Gospels, the books of Anbiya (a) before Isa (a) were to be held on to as the Torah (The  law), but as soon as Gospels come, since it's revelation too and the latest, the Law (Torah) revelation is to be no longer applied but the Gospels since that is God's latest revelation.

Now that Mohammad (s) came and God revealed the Quran to him so that Mohammad (s) judges people with truth, it goes back to the introduction, Torah central theses is about God's revelation and his chosen ones judging by his revelation, and so how can they make Mohammad (s) as the judge, when really, it's God's judgment he is applying and how can they make anyone especially someone they claim is a fake Prophet to be a ruler and judge, when the whole of Torah is to shun away all leaders but those chosen by God and to rely on God through his chosen ones and his holy revelations and believe in the signs and miracles they come with. The purpose of Torah and Gospels then if they are true, should make them make Mohammad (s) the judge because he judges by what God has currently revealed.

To make it even further clear and no doubt that Jews and Christians are not to judge by their religion and that they aren't allowed to, it says, believers not to take the Christians and Jews as authorities as some of them are that to each other. What is meant by authorities is not political here, it means, regarding the Torah and Gospels and laws, and God's moral judgement not to take Christians and Jews as an authority to what it says in those books.  In fact, this was a huge thing,  people sought opinions of Christian and Jewish leaders about what is in the Torah and Gospels about Mohammad (s) saying "they fear regarding their people evil" and so were trying to verify if Mohammad's (s) claims to what those books teach are true and what is still found therein to be true or not.

Naturally, if we love God more then everything else, we would not let scholars of any religion, keep us from truth of his religion nor rely on people who can lead us astray. It's only when we love them more then God really - that we put God's words and teachings at the mercy of humans like ourselves that misguide if we they are held accountable to what they say.

Then it goes us to emphasize our only Authority is in fact God, his Messenger, and those who granted security, those who keep up prayers and give that which purifies while they bow (Imam Ali (a) did this and represented the family of Mohammad (s)).  And whoever gives this authority to God and the Messenger and those granted security, then God's group is they who are successful.

Momin in Quran usually means believer, but when God calls himself a Momin, it means "Granter of security/safety" and almost all translations have that in the verse where God refers to himself as that.

In verse 5:55 and as well as the verse of those who see our deeds, it does not mean believer, but means "granters of security/safety".

And what it means that they already granted safety and security - means - God by taking the covenant with them before this world and through them in the pre-world, are what guarantees success and brings one to paradise and out of hell. 

And what it means as continuous (momineen) is that the religion is all means of safety and fear, whether respect to this world or next, it is not concerned with trivial things, but things concerning the well being of humans in terms of security and fear in this world and the next.

There are hadiths that verify this I think if someone can quote them, I believe in the section of al-kafi and chapter - there exists a hadith or two, telling us momin doesn't always mean believer but sometimes means granter of security/safety and is particularly about the Imams (a).

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
7 hours ago, placid said:

The Scriptures have not been changed

What would you say about this verse:

Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

Also, by scriptures do you mean gospel of Barnabus or st Thomas .

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Hello friends

The verses mentioned at the begining Qur'an 5:43 and 47 indicate to me that at the time the verses were written there were authentic Torah and Injil available to the Jews and Christians of Medina to go to and read and find the truth about how God wanted them to live.  So I go along with @placid and agree that if Jews and Christians lived according to the teaching of their own books they would be living lives that pleased God and that benifited their communities and humanity.

As a Follower of Jesus, I need to confess that through the ages, and even today, many people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teaching of their book.  As far as we have hurt other communities I want to ask for forgivness from those who have been offended.

I can not accept the comments that suggest there has been a couruption of the texts of the Torah and Injil.  The study and research that goes into finding the authentic text and translating it from the original languages is vast and has shown that the copies of the texts which we have today are trustworthy and reliable.  We never claim to have the unchanged original manuscripts but there are so many documents which enable us to get very close and any questions or uncertainty do not distract from the fundamental teaching and truths of these books.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

How would you account for the writings of Paul who turned Jesus ((عليه السلام)) into a divine figure or are these not what are counted as the scriptures in Islam? What I mean by this is, is only the actual teachings of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) like the Sermon on the Mount and the red letters of the Gospels rather than the entirety of the four gospels themselves?

I come out of a Christian family background, so I'm used to the entirety of the Bible (old and new testaments as per the Ukrainian Orthodox church) being treated as the "inspired word of God ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))"

When I read the Qur'an and compare it with the Bible, I am unable to say that the teaching of the Qur'an and the previous books are the same.  I see marked differnces in the understanding of God, humanity and how God deals with people.

I don't see Paul as a person who "turned Jesus into a divine figure".  I see the New Testament as teaching and accounts of people, more than just Paul, who were struggelling to understand and explain the life, teaching, death and resurection of Jesus within a strictly monotheistic Jewish context.  When they looked at Jesus and what he did and said they were forced to recognise him as someone who was different.  His life and teaching and its links with the Old Testament teaching about God, caused them to come to the conclusion that God had come to earth in Jesus and that in Jesus God himself was at work dealing with our sin and shame.

As Abdul-Hadi says we need to look at Jesus in the context of the whole Bible and see it as our guide for life and also for interpreting our reaction to Jesus.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

God had come to earth in Jesus and that in Jesus God himself was at work dealing with our sin and shame.

You know very well I have refuted this which leaves no argument for the trinitarians. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

can not accept the comments that suggest there has been a couruption of the texts of the Torah and Injil. 

Corruption of these can be proven through many ways which I have shown that the Torah and the NT (notice i didn’t say injeel because their are four of them and more .) have been tempered with. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi Hasanhh,

It is interesting that the Books of the Maccabees are not in the Hebrew Bible. However, when the Scholar Jerome translated the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into Latin, about 400 AD, he included the Maccabees. --- Therefore, when the Douay Rheims translation was made from the Latin Vulgate, to English, it included the two books of Maccabees, as well as other books that were not in the Hebrew Scriptures.

When King James of England employed 47 linguists and Bible Scholars to translate the Scriptures from the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into English, it did not include the extra books, as the Maccabees were deemed of historic value, but not inspired Scripture. --- The great event was that Judas Maccabeus defeated the Greek Antonius Epiphanes, to bring independence to Israel in 164 BC, which lasted for about 100 years. --- After cleansing the temple Judas declared an eight day celebration called the ‘Festival of lights.’ This is still celebrated as Hanukah, in December, so their history lives on. --- Some of the shorter books which are in the Douay Rheims from the Vulgate were poetic, or logic, but not inspired Scripture.

--- The interesting thing is that Muslims as well as Christians should study and know the Scriptures we do have, which give us ‘guidance and light’ to know God’s plan of salvation. --- It is interesting also that ‘we didn’t ask to be born.’ --- But we have a choice in our destiny. --- We must not rely on what others have told us or taught us, but we must ‘study to show ourselves approved unto God.’

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Don’t listen to any of these comments by the Paulines. 
 

To answer ur question. The Torah has persevered laws and their are stories within the Torah/tanakh  the uncorrupted portions of them highlight laws which expose the fake laws that crept in. An example of some of the false laws, an Israelite can charge interest to the gentile but is prohibited to charge interest to another fellow Israeli, Jesus has exposed the false laws through parables and incidents and this false law has been exposed via the gospel, the Torah still has Allah’s laws in it which leads to a good society. The Maimonides(which every Jew subscribes to) even admit a person shouldn’t do interest when giving a loan... this implies they deep down know the Torah has corrupted laws within it and also has tashbih regarding God and they try to getaway with it by saying it’s a “metaphor” or “hermeneutics”. 

as for the people of the gospel, Jesus makes it clear in Mathew 5:17-20 the parables are there to help aswell and also some incidents. The people of the gospel have clearer vision of Allah’s judgement (law) while the Jews deep down know the truth regarding the Torah having corrupted parts and they follow the truth regarding it and turn a away from the false laws while still defending them to simply say the Torah is not corrupted. 

So when they judge by the Torah they are judging by Allah’s judgment 99% of the time and the people of the gospel (if they’re not stupid) would be judging 100% by Allah’s judgement. The Jews in reality would be judging 100% since they tend to avoid false laws by making excuses which the Quran highlights In that ayah you quoted which gives us an clear cut answer that the Jews judge by Allah’s law in reality since they avoid all the fabricated ones. The Jews today are abiding to it only 99% since they charge interest. 
 

Here’s the original teachings of Christ which Simon Peter is using to refute Paul the imposter, about the corrupted parts im the Torah. 
 

Then said Saul: "Since, as you say, we must understand the things concerning God by comparing them with the creation, how is it possible to recognise the other things in the Torah which are from the tradition of Moses, and are true, and are mixed up with these falsehoods?" Then Peter said: "A certain verse has been recorded without controversy in the written Torah, according to the providence of God, so as to show clearly which of the things written are true and which are false." Then said Saul: "Which is that? Show it us."

(homollies of Clementine, XLVIII)

Let’s Focus on the part I highlighted, i highlighted the part which will help us distinguished truth from falsehood within the previous scriptures, we are gonna use this measuring rod which is given to us by shimon ((عليه السلام)). I’ll show a simple example of this principe being used regarding God. 
 

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 

15And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire.

16Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,

17the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven,

18the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.

19And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.

 

Exodus 20:1-4

1God spoke all these words, to respond:

2"I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3You shall have no other gods upon My Face .

4You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”


Deuteronomy 5:

6"I am the Lord your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7You shall have no other gods upon My Face.

8You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”


as you can see Deuteronomy 5:6-8 and Exodus 20:1-4 are in a agreement  and they both make clear that shirk is prohibited and God has no form nor any likeness to His creation. These passages (which are also the 1st commandment) help us identify the truthful parts in the Torah regarding God and also give us an rational approach to be used for identification for authenticity.  we are able to identity that Deuteronomy 4:15-19 Is authentic because it does not contradict our measuring rod and it’s rational which is also part of the reason why it does not contradict our measuring rod. 
 

Homily 3

Then said Peter:  “The Torah of Allaha was given by Moses, without writing, to seventy wise men, to be handed down, that the government might be carried on by succession.  But after that Moses was taken up, it was written by some one, but not by Moses.  For in the Torah itself it is written, ‘And Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there, in the land of Moab, by the mouth of the Lord. And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day’.[1]  But how could Moses write that Moses died?  And whereas in the time after Moses, about 500 years or thereabouts, it is found lying in the temple which was built, and after about 500 years more it is carried away, and being burnt in the time of Nebuchadnezzar it is destroyed; and thus being written after Moses, and often lost, even this shows the foreknowledge of Moses, because he, foreseeing its disappearance, did not write it; but those who wrote it, being convicted of ignorance through their not foreseeing its disappearance, were not prophets.” (Chapter 47) 

footnotes: 1) Deuteronomy 34:5-6

Then said Saul:  “Since, as you say, we must understand the things concerning Allaha by comparing them with the creation, how is it possible to recognise the other things in the Torah which are from the tradition of Moses, and are true, and are mixed up with these falsehoods?”  Then Peter said:  “A certain verse has been recorded without controversy in the written Torah, according to the providence of Allaha, so as to show clearly which of the things written are true and which are false.”  Then said Saul:  “Which is that?  Show it us.” (Chapter 48)

Then Peter said:  “I shall tell you forthwith.  It is written in the first book of the Torah, towards the end: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.’[1]  If, therefore, any one can apprehend him who came after the failure of ruler and leader from Judah, and who was to be expected by the nations, he will be able by this verse to recognise him as truly having come; and believing his teaching, he will know what of the Scriptures are true and what are false.”  Then said Saul:  “I understand that you speak of your Eashoa as him who was prophesied of by the scripture.  Therefore let it be granted that it is so.  Tell us, then, how he taught you to discriminate the Scriptures.”  (Chapter 49)

footnote: 1) Genesis 49:10

 

Then Peter:  “As to the mixture of truth with falsehood, I remember that on one occasion he, finding fault with the Sadducees, said, ‘you are in error, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; and on this account you are ignorant of the power of God.’[1]  But if he cast up to them that they knew not the true things of the Scriptures, it is manifest that there are false things in them.  And also, inasmuch as he said, ‘Be ye prudent money-changers,’ it is because there are genuine and spurious words.  And whereas he said, ‘Wherefore do ye not perceive that which is reasonable in the Scriptures?’  He makes the understanding of Him stronger who voluntarily judges soundly.” (Chapter 50)

footnotes: 1) Mathew 22:29 genuine. 
 

“And his sending to the scribes and teachers of the existing Scriptures, as to those who knew the true things of the Torah that then was, is well known.  And also that he said, ‘I have not come to destroy the law,’[1] and yet he appeared to be destroying it, is the part of one intimating that the things which he destroyed did not belong to the Torah.  And his saying, ‘The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law,’[2]intimated that the things which pass away before the heaven and the earth do not belong to the Torah in reality.” (Chapter 51) 

footnote: 1) Mathew 5:17 2) Mathew 5:18

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The bible says that nuh(عليه السلام) was drunk and went infront of his son naked, then in another verse it says that Lut(عليه السلام) was drunk and made inscest with his daugther, then it says that Musa(عليه السلام) slaugthered an entire people because of "what their anscestors did", then it says that Isa(عليه السلام) talked to his mother by calling her "Woman!!" the same way he called a wh**e, etc...

Allah(stw) forbid these horrible statements about these beloved prophets.

 

Without any archieology or any major study of the text, you should atleast have the common sense from the islamic perspective to see these verses as corrupted verses and actually not judge by them, islam clearly forbids inscest with your daugthers for example and I hope you don't call your mother "Woman!!".

Edited by HusseinAbbas
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi Abdul-Hadi,

Quote from your post: How would you account for the writings of Paul who turned Jesus ((عليه السلام)) into a divine figure or are these not what are counted as the scriptures in Islam? What I mean by this is, is only the actual teachings of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) like the Sermon on the Mount and the red letters of the Gospels rather than the entirety of the four gospels themselves?
I come out of a Christian family background, so I'm used to the entirety of the Bible (old and new testaments as per the Ukrainian Orthodox church) being treated as the "inspired word of God ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))"

 

This assumption that Paul exalted Jesus is not correct. Jesus was human, but without sin, so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for sinful man. --- Something to notice since you are familiar with the New Testament is that in the Gospels the name is written, 'Jesus Christ,’ and the focus was on Jesus, as He is the one who could be seen. But Christ spoke the wisdom of God through Him, in the same way that the Holy Spirit can speak through some Christians today.

--- However, After the crucifixion the names changed, as Jesus went to heaven to become a High priest, ‘After the order of Melchizedek,’ as it says in Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek’”).

22 By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He (Jesus), because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

 

In the letters of Paul you will notice that after he gives a greeting in the name of Jesus Christ he quickly changes to Christ Jesus, or Christ alone. --- Because it was Christ who came down from heaven to ‘indwell’ Jesus, as the Holy Spirit indwells some Christians today. --- But when Jesus went to heaven the emphasis was on Christ. --- Jesus was born to be our Savior. --- But Christ was sent to be our Redeemer, and the King of the Jews, through whom the Gospel was given.

Are you familiar with Paul’s writing in 1 Corinthians 15? --- 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (in death).

And it continues in 21 “For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (believers) shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. --- 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son (Christ) Himself will also be subject to Him (God the Father) who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”

--- Where was Jesus? He was already in His permanent position in heaven as the High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary, there to make intercession for us. Hebrews 8:1-2.

Check it all out and let me know what you discover.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi Guest OnPoint,

Quote from your post: To make it even further clear and no doubt that Jews and Christians are not to judge by their religion and that they aren't allowed to, it says, believers not to take the Christians and Jews as authorities as some of them are that to each other. What is meant by authorities is not political here, it means, regarding the Torah and Gospels and laws, and God's moral judgement not to take Christians and Jews as an authority to what it says in those books. 

 

In response, I had quoted 'what it says in the Books,' --- it says in Surah 5:44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’

5:46 And in their footsteps We (God) sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’

 

The two things I mentioned as the core teaching of the Torah is the Ten Commandments. --- And for the Gospels, the first part of ‘The Sermon on the Mount,’ which continues for 3 chapters.

--- I could show you one thing that Jesus corrected in the Pharisees’ teaching of the commandment on love, in Matthew 5:20 Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ --- 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.”

--- There is no place in the Torah that says you should ‘hate your enemy.’ But that is what had been taught, which allowed the Pharisees to ‘hate’ who, or what, they didn’t like, and this also would allow neighbors who had a disagreement, to ‘hate’ one another. --- Consider how the Pharisees hated Jesus, and later the disciples.

Jesus said, Love your enemies or adversaries, and love your neighbors. --- When Jesus was asked by a lawyer “Which was the Great Commandment?” He answered in Matthew 22:37 “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

--- And this too is 'written in the Book' and is meant for Christians to live by.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, placid said:

Hi THREE1THREE,

I guess you know that none of what you have written from homilies is in the New Testament, --- So has no application to what you are saying about the Torah.

None of the epistles that you quote are gospel. Another arrogant Pauline who refuses to use his head. Many of the stuff quoted in the homily is in the “Gospels” and remember the Gospels are influenced by Pauline theology since he had the upper hand & his theology was prominent back then due to him murdering his way up to stop the truth from prevailing which he succeeded.... the Pauline epistles predate the “gospels” so obviously when the gospels were written (not just the 4 but we have MANY others) the Paulin Greco theology had an impact on them as we can see starting from the obvious “the Father” and “Son” stuff and also “Heavenly Father” and baptism and many other pagan practices which crept into the gospels, Simon Peter prophesied that the gospel would be altered and it will be reconstructed and cleansed from the pagan parts in it and it will be prominent and then the antichrist would come to deceive the people and that’s when the true Messiah Eashoa would come to confirm the truth that has been brought and refute  the Antichrist and kill him. 


Homilies of Clementine is like the book of acts.   The Homily gives us an criteria which is used to distinguish truth from falsehood. 
 

ive already made a article how the Quran makes it crystal clear that the bible has been altered. I’ve told you numerous of times to give it a read. 
 

I urge everyone to ignore placid since he is no different to a wahabi arrogant and staunch. As imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) says, “silence is the best reply to a fool”

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, placid said:

There is no place in the Torah that says you should ‘hate your enemy.’ But that is what had been taught, which allowed the Pharisees

You Paulines like to blame Pharisees when something doesn’t sound right in the gospel(s) but have no proof for it.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/22/2020 at 9:42 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

who "turned Jesus into a divine figure"

He does make Jesus into a divine being as I have shown, Mark 10:17-18 shows Jesus not being God and John 10:28-39 Jesus explicitly denies being God with a clever argument. Luke 4:41 Jesus denies being the literally son of God. Also In John 5 Jesus denies being God after a false accusation. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
7 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

ive already made a article how the Quran makes it crystal clear that the bible has been altered. I’ve told you numerous of times to give it a read. 

Actually, the history of the churches in how the Bible was compiled in the 4th Century CC shows more.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

He does make Jesus into a divine being as I have shown, Mark 10:17-18 shows Jesus not being God and John 10:28-39 Jesus explicitly denies being God with a clever argument. Luke 4:41 Jesus denies being the literally son of God. Also In John 5 Jesus denies being God after a false accusation. 

These observations were trashed by the Councils of Nicea and Ephesus. ln the latter is when Mary's 'title' was changed from Christotokos (mother of chr!st) to Theotokos (mother of g.od). After this, the trinity blasphemy was standardized.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi 313_Waiter,

Quote from your post: What would you say about this verse:

Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

--- This is from Surah 2: --- Starting in 77. Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?

78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

80. And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

--- This is talking about false prophets or people that say what they want to believe, but they are exposed because God knows their hearts.

This was common in the Book of Jeremiah when he was prophesying destruction because of their idolatry, but the false prophets were saying something else.

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me, ‘The Lord has said, “You shall have peace”; and to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, ‘No evil shall come upon you.’ ” --- But destruction came upon them as Jeremiah, the true prophet of God, predicted.

I have listened to Pastors who have used Scripture out of context and therefore made false statements. However, what people say or predict doesn’t change the word of God which is written and has not been changed in spite of the critics who give their own opinions.

Quote from your post: Also, by scriptures do you mean gospel of Barnabus or st Thomas.

--- These extra books were never included in any canon of Scripture. The OT contains 39 Books and the NT 27, --- These are the authorized Scriptures.

I usually use the New King James Bible because it was produced after the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered and translated. There are scrolls or parts of scrolls for all but one of the Books in the OT, and of course they were preserved in caves by the Essenes, before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. --- God has a way of preserving His word, and having it revealed in His time. --- We are fortunate today with the internet having the Scriptures and the Quran online so we can study as much as we want.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

the history of the churches in how the Bible was compiled in the 4th Century CC shows more.

Yes but trinitarians don't like history... They face problems that they can’t deal with. The bible was compiled in the late first century after the marcionite version was done, which included the gospel of Luke, John, Matthew, and Mark and it was in Syriac Aramaic it is called the Pe[Edited Out]ta. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
18 minutes ago, placid said:

This is talking about false prophets or people that say what they want to believe, but they are exposed because God knows their hearts.

Nope it’s not. It’s talking about the people of the book. Your interpretations have always been rubbish which is no surprising since ur a Pauline. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
59 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The Catholics believe in this even the Chaldean Christians but the non Chaldean Christians don’t believe in that nonsense.

The Chaldeans as l read affiliated with Rome, but the others of Nestorian descent think Western chr!stians are "crazy" (the word l read). ...

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Nestorian descent think Western chr!stians are "crazy" (the word l read). ...

Yes btw those Christians you are talking about are not Nestorian’s they find it as an insult to call them Nestorian’s, their theology (which Is adoptionism) dates back to the time of  Paul right after his death.  some of them believe Jesus is literal son of God. The wicked Catholics and Coptics accuse them of being  “Nestorian’s” and call them heretics.  
 

These Christians hold many values of Christ unlike the trinitarians who are just plain stupid. 
 

the Chaldeans are cowards hence why they associated with the Romans originally they were also like the Assyrian Christians then they lost their  theology due to the pagan Romans converting them to trinitarianism when they associated with them. Initially the Romans saw them as heretics until they became trinitarian. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your confidence.

Quote from your post:  As a Follower of Jesus, I need to confess that through the ages, and even today, many people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teaching of their book.  As far as we have hurt other communities I want to ask for forgiveness from those who have been offended.

I can not accept the comments that suggest there has been a corruption of the texts of the Torah and Injil.  The study and research that goes into finding the authentic text and translating it from the original languages is vast and has shown that the copies of the texts which we have today are trustworthy and reliable. 

Yes, I agree that The Scriptures we have today are what God has inspired for us to read and understand, --- and to live by.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Hi HusseinAbbas

Quote from your post:  then it says that Isa(عليه السلام) talked to his mother by calling her "Woman!!" the same way he called a wh**e, etc...

--- I will only respond to this from the New Testament to say that the term ‘woman’ was not offensive. When Jesus was on the cross, some were gathered at the foot of the cross, and it says in John 19:25  Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 

26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

 

Also it says in Surah 3:45  Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

 

Surah 19:27 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" --- (And Jesus spoke as a child.)

30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; --- (So this is written in the Quran that Jesus was not disrespectful, but kind to His mother.)

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

--- I see these verses as a great testimony of who Jesus was what He did, and what He taught us to believe in saying, “God is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him, this is a way that is straight.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

There are other verses in Surah 5 that are favorable to Christians:

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger (Muhammad), thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84. "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85. And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86. But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...