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In the Name of God بسم الله

Risk of committing Zina - Please Help

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Guest Troubled

I am trying my best to get married and it isn't looking too promising for me, I have been looking for a wife for a little over two years and things just aren't working out, but I won't give up. My issue is that I absolutely fear falling into the sin of fornication and it is a sin I don't want to have to carry on my back, because I know I will regret it severely. I have tried with great effort to get into Mut'ah marriage, but there just isn't any help - at my work the female customers that work with me speak only Spanish and to get them into a Mut'ah contract is a near impossibility, I try my best to avoid any female interaction but at times it is necessary because I need to explain something to them. I don't know what to do and it is really difficult to stop myself from pursuing anything with them as the need is very high and I have been suppressing myself for years, I would highly appreciate any advice to get through this predicament, I just don't want to sin and honestly I don't think I can live with myself if I commit an abomination like fornication. 

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What life circumstances are you able to change to improve your situation? Are you able to find a different job? Or take a different position where you don't have to interact with customers? If you wear glasses, I'd recommend taking them off when interacting with women

Brother don't think you're wasting your time or that all this pain is for nothing. God can see your suffering for Him and He will honor you.  You respecting the boundaries between mahram and non-mahram is one of the most effective ways of changing your destiny for the better in regards to marriage. Trust me you will be compensated with interest for your troubles, just keep up the good work.

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Salam, 

The real question is are you making marriage more difficult than it needs to be? Within your 2 years what resources have you used to find potential spouses? Have you spoken to your community elders? Have you attempted to use sites such as Shiamatch? How high are your standards? Could you possibly be the issue, and what have you done to improve yourself? 

Many men nowadays talk about how hard it's finding a spouse, but they forget, the women is also evaluating you to figure out if you are the right match. It goes both ways LOL. So if you haven't found a potential spouse within your two years or searching, either you aren't using the right resources properly, your standard are way too high, or you need to take a step back and evaluate yourself. 

Also, fornication isn't an easy thing to fall into as you would think... it requires an intense urge, and intention to do. What do I mean by this. It requires some lengthy steps to get to the end of the tunnel, this could be talking with the female, getting her number, talking for a bit, going out on a date, and then the rest is pretty obvious. Inshallah, as you go through these steps you will realize the trap shaytan is setting, and hopefully back off. Regardless, fornication isn't as easy as you think it is, unless drugs, alcohol and various other dangerous things are involved (but it seems they aren't in your situation ). Luckily, you have the intention to not do it, and that's a great sign that you are aware of not falling into this act. 

The answer is pretty simple, get married. Getting married isn't has hard as you think it is unless you make it harder than it needs to. Contact your local community leader and let him know you are interested in finding a spouse. Also make your parents aware as well, and maybe ask some of your Shia friends if they know anyone attempting to find a wife. Networking is essential in finding a spouse. I know some communities have a yearly spouse matching events, check if your community has one.... due to COVID it may be virtual, or canceled but do double check.

Other than that just work on yourself, and keep growing. Work on your fitness, hobbies, learning new skills etc... hopefully in the meantime these new hobbies will take your mind off of these urges and keep you busy. 

 

Ws

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Salam, Brother here is my advice.

1. Fast on Mondays and Thursdays.

2. Do all the Salat, and try to do it on time

3. Pray Salat Al Layl every night (time for this is between midnight and fajr time)

If you try to stick to these things, this will give you the sabr to get thru this time. Also, your situation is the #1 most common situation I hear from brothers on ShiaChat. You're not alone in this, many brothers have gotten thru this. 

The first step is doing the above, the second step is to try and pursue marriage. The problem with many brothers ist that they try to do step 2 (pursuing a spouse) before they do step 1 (making yourself an attractive prospect for a spouse). You need to make yourself an attractive spouse so that your potential spouse will be interested in you. I am not just talking about being physically attractive, although that helps but this is not the main thing. The most attractive thing to women, i.e. it's not looks, is a man who has a strong sense of self worth and confidence. He knows who he is, what he believes in, what his values are, and what his goals are and he is pursuing them in an active way. The other attractive thing is that a man has good morals, he doesn't lie, backbite, break promises, etc. A man who is physically attractive can initially attract a women, but if he doesn't have the other two qualities, strength of character / confidence and morality, the relationship will quickly fall apart with bad consequences. Those things I listed (1,2,3) in addition to following the other aspects of Islam (Hukm Sharia) will build the confidence, strength of character, and morality in you as a muslim. Then you will be an attractive spouse. At that point, you won't need to pursue a spouse, they will pursue you. You can also pursue them if you want, but what I am saying is that it will be easy at that point. Try doing #1 and #3 for 40 days, (2 you should always be doing). I believe this will help you alot in your goal. 

BTW, physical attraction is an important part in this but not the main part. I would say in importance, it is probably 3rd but still important. You can make yourself more physically attractive by wearing neat and clean cloths, taking a shower / bath regularly, wearing cologne, keeping yourself fit and healthy by doing physical exercise on regular basis. If you do this, plus the above, you will be an attractive prospect for a spouse. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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21 hours ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

if you haven't found a potential spouse within your two years or searching, either you aren't using the right resources properly, your standard are way too high, or you need to take a step back and evaluate yourself. 

Are these the only 3 reasons why a person cannot get married despite his efforts to get married? Isn't it possible that a person utilises the right resources, has normal standards and has also evaluated himself correctly, but he is still unable to find a spouse? 

Marriage is in Allah's hands and only He can judge when He will allow a person to get married. A person should make the effort and have hope in Allah, but ultimately it will be Allah who decides how much a man would have to wait before he is able to get married. Is there a guarantee that a if a person tries his level best, he will get married within 2 years ? 

There are examples from the lives of Prophets and imams where they had to undergo very long periods of either unmarried life or imprisoned life separated from their wives, yet they showed full patience. Prophet Isa (عليه السلام), Prophet Yousaf (عليه السلام), Imam Musa Kazim (عليه السلام) are such examples. 

So, if a person has tried his best to get married but has not been able to, we should not blame that person for being unmarried. Can it not be a divine test from Allah for him to show prolonged sexual patience, thereby giving him the chance to increase his rank? Allah doesn't test anyone with a burden greater than he can carry, so if someone has been unable to get married despite trying his best, it has to be accepted that he is required to suppress his urges for as long as he cannot get married, and he should take this unmarried life as a blessing in its own right...a time and opportunity to show chastity before marriage. 

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1 hour ago, Anonymous-Male said:

Are these the only 3 reasons why a person cannot get married despite his efforts to get married? Isn't it possible that a person utilises the right resources, has normal standards and has also evaluated himself correctly, but he is still unable to find a spouse? 

Marriage is in Allah's hands and only He can judge when He will allow a person to get married. A person should make the effort and have hope in Allah, but ultimately it will be Allah who decides how much a man would have to wait before he is able to get married. Is there a guarantee that a if a person tries his level best, he will get married within 2 years ? 

There are examples from the lives of Prophets and imams where they had to undergo very long periods of either unmarried life or imprisoned life separated from their wives, yet they showed full patience. Prophet Isa (عليه السلام), Prophet Yousaf (عليه السلام), Imam Musa Kazim (عليه السلام) are such examples. 

So, if a person has tried his best to get married but has not been able to, we should not blame that person for being unmarried. Can it not be a divine test from Allah for him to show prolonged sexual patience, thereby giving him the chance to increase his rank? Allah doesn't test anyone with a burden greater than he can carry, so if someone has been unable to get married despite trying his best, it has to be accepted that he is required to suppress his urges for as long as he cannot get married, and he should take this unmarried life as a blessing in its own right...a time and opportunity to show chastity before marriage. 

The three reasons I have provided are controllable factors that an individual can work on to increase his changes of finding a spouse... of course I could have provided an answer similar to yours, and would have either discouraged the brother, or provided no advice that would have aided him. 

At the end of the day all of our affairs are in the hands of Allah, this is no new news, and quite simply a band aid response. If this person cannot find a spouse, he should simply step back and analyze what's not working, and readjust his approach. We have many people who say "it's up to allah, and not in my destiny", and simply stop trying due to this.... we've all been in that sort of situation, and hearing that phrase is pretty discouraging, and provides no advice to go forth. 

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17 hours ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

We have many people who say "it's up to allah, and not in my destiny", and simply stop trying due to this....

Yes, but the person in question here hasn't said that he will stop trying. He actually said....

On 10/16/2020 at 3:26 AM, Guest Troubled said:

things just aren't working out, but I won't give up

Only Allah knows how much effort a person has put in to get married and we have no right to judge others by claiming that their effort is deficient. It can be very disappointing for a person to be told that his lack of marriage is because of his own fault particularly when he has tried his best and utilised all his resources and done whatever he could to get married, but is still unmarried, not because of his own fault, but because of reasons beyond his own control. 

Allah himself has mentioned that there are people who cannot get married because they do not have the means for it. 

"And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace." (24.33)

Hadith also acknowledges that some people cannot get married...

It was narrated that 'Abdullah said: "The Messenger of Allah said to us:' O young men, whoever among you can afford it, let him get married, for it is more effective in lowering the gaze and guarding chastity, and whoever cannot then he should fast, for it will be a restraint (wija ') for him.' ''

Even if the issue mentioned in the Quran and hadith may be related to financial problems, the unmarried person here is not being blamed or accused for his inability to get married, rather he is given hope and encouragement, instead of making him disheartened by saying that his own effort is faulty. 

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The difference between mutah and Zina is extremely enormous and beyond human comprehension. They are total opposites of each other. Mutah can be obligatory but Zina is one of the greatest sins. The difference is so tremendous that one is highly rewarded while the other may require stoning to death. I believe this shows that the one simple sentence which converts Zina into mutah is not just a few words uttered from mouth - instead it is just tip of the iceberg. The words are symbolic and represent such great and powerful background and effect that any person who is shameful enough to do Zina will simply not be able to utter those words in the first place. If it had been as simple as speaking a few words, then few people would have done Zina. There is something in those words which adulterers find so difficult to accept, that they agree to do Zina instead of saying those words. And the one who agrees and accepts the responsibility to utter those apparently "simple" words, has done such a huge task and achieved such a great objective, that Zina gets comverted into mutah for them. So basically I believe these words are not just "words", rather a great manifestation of complete surrender to the will of Allah - and only the most pious of people can have the ability to utter these words. That's why people do Zina instead of mutah, because accepting those words is not easy for them. 

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On 10/18/2020 at 6:02 AM, Abu Hadi said:

Notice Iman and Taqwa were not on the list (because most muslims men don't care about this compared to the other 4).

I definitely do care about this, and this worries me a lot because from a simple third person point of view, I feel these are hard qualities to find nowadays, especially with all these extremely self-centric liberal modernists who are forcing their ill values, attitudes, and thinking styles into the minds of many youth, and especially our female Muslim youth...

I also care A LOT about point 2 on your list, also kinda point 3 lol.

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Oh just grow up would you? Literally every Muslim unmarried male past the pubescent age is in the same situation as you. Live with it. 

I can't even believe what has become of Muslim men in 2020.

And btw if you have the heart to do "it" in mutah with a random woman who you don't even love then no matter how big your feelings are, even if it is halal and preventing you from sin you honestly don't deserve a wife.

Simply don't give up looking for a woman to marry fall in love with her then marry her. You never know how close you are to finding your wife, she might jsut literally be round the corner. Obviously it doesn't feel like that for you now and you think "Oh there's no one there for me, I'll never be married". But you will meet someone soon who you'll fall in love with and you'll be married. Honestly as long as you try your hardest to look for a wife with pure intention and not do zina then there's not more you can do and you'll be fine. 

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On 10/18/2020 at 5:02 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I think what the brother is trying to say is that there are alot of brothers on the site who throw up their hands and say 'I cannot find a wife'. What they are saying is true, but here is their definition of 'wife'

1. A girl that my parents accept, who is from the same village / town / region as me and my parents. Speaks the same language as me, has the same culture

2. Is stunningly beautiful in my eyes and also the eyes of my parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and village.

3. Will obey my every wish without me even having to ask her and will never question my orders / decisions. 

4. Has the cooking skills of a five star chef and the cleaning and child rearing skills of Mary Poppins

Now if this is the definition of 'wife', then yes, I agree you may have a hard time finding this 'wife' and she may not even exist. So if you are looking for this 'wife', that might be the problem. The more of these issues you are willing to compromise on, the easier it will be to get married. 

Notice Iman and Taqwa were not on the list (because most muslims men don't care about this compared to the other 4). But according to all teaching that I am aware of (Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imams((عليه السلام))) these are the most important. 

No you're wrong. Most men don't have such definitions of wives. The ones that do are the most financially stable and settled ones(They deserve beautiful women with all those things because their status can afford it). Most modest men are even willing to settle on a lot of matters but this Kafir blood-sucking society won't wed their daughters because they don't have mines of Gold, oil-fields and Doctor degrees. That's the reality of this world. Parents these days will only give their daughters to rich men who will sexually and physically and mentally abuse them but it doesn't matter because they are rich(They will also cut their daughters off from relations if they divorce for those reasons) whilst financially modest guys are told to take a hike who would've treated their daughters right.

Same in West and Pakistan from my observations. So stop spewing your bile, brother Abu Hadi. 

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

No you're wrong. Most men don't have such definitions of wives. The ones that do are the most financially stable and settled ones(They deserve beautiful women with all those things because their status can afford it). Most modest men are even willing to settle on a lot of matters but this Kafir blood-sucking society won't wed their daughters because they don't have mines of Gold, oil-fields and Doctor degrees. That's the reality of this world. Parents these days will only give their daughters to rich men who will sexually and physically and mentally abuse them but it doesn't matter because they are rich(They will also cut their daughters off from relations if they divorce for those reasons) whilst financially modest guys are told to take a hike who would've treated their daughters right.

Same in West and Pakistan from my observations. So stop spewing your bile, brother Abu Hadi. 

Salam Brother, Bile ? 

I don't think you understood my point. My point is that if a brother will only accept a wife who is a 10+ in all these categories, they will most likely stay single for a long, long time. If you know about a 'lost island' where they keep such women, let me know about it. Otherwise, my point stands.

It is true that most wealthy families will not accept their daughter to marry someone who isn't wealthy. But the number of wealthy families are few, as compared to non wealthy families. So most of the potential wives come from non wealthy families. Now those non wealthy families, of course want their daughters to also marry from the wealthy families, because, as you know, all parents want their children, and especially their daughters, to be at ease financially and not have to struggle from day to day just to survive. Your point is correct that as the society becomes more materialistic, this demand for their daughters to marry into wealth will get stronger, and more of a show will be made of it. At the same time, at some point (hopefully while the daughter is still desirable for marriage) these families and parents will realize that it's very unlikely that this will happen, and they will compromise on this. So here is a tip for the brothers. Don't go after potential brides who are very young( 18-22 approx) and whose parents are not wealthy themselves, and who have this strong demand for the husband to be wealthy. You will waste your time with this, unless you are wealthy yourself. There are many other potential brides, families who aren't in this category, go after those ones. 

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36 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Salam Brother, Bile ? 

I don't think you understood my point. My point is that if a brother will only accept a wife who is a 10+ in all these categories, they will most likely stay single for a long, long time. If you know about a 'lost island' where they keep such women, let me know about it. Otherwise, my point stands.

It is true that most wealthy families will not accept their daughter to marry someone who isn't wealthy. But the number of wealthy families are few, as compared to non wealthy families. So most of the potential wives come from non wealthy families. Now those non wealthy families, of course want their daughters to also marry from the wealthy families, because, as you know, all parents want their children, and especially their daughters, to be at ease financially and not have to struggle from day to day just to survive. Your point is correct that as the society becomes more materialistic, this demand for their daughters to marry into wealth will get stronger, and more of a show will be made of it. At the same time, at some point (hopefully while the daughter is still desirable for marriage) these families and parents will realize that it's very unlikely that this will happen, and they will compromise on this. So here is a tip for the brothers. Don't go after potential brides who are very young( 18-22 approx) and whose parents are not wealthy themselves, and who have this strong demand for the husband to be wealthy. You will waste your time with this, unless you are wealthy yourself. There are many other potential brides, families who aren't in this category, go after those ones. 

Walaikum Asalam.

Brother "Abu Hadi". Let me be very frank with you today. These issues that we often talk about which includes marriage. These aren't Islamic issues like matters of fiqh or Islamic principles. You've every right to voice your opinions in anything Islamic but these issues are Ethnic issues. You're not a part of this ethnicity. You can pretend that you are all day but the truth is that you're not. I referred to your above post as "Bile". Spewing out Bile means you're vomiting out filth which perfectly describes your above post mentioning "brothers" which basically refers to ethnic men originating from ME/Sub. You can't speak for us. You can't tell us what we think or what we want. You don't know the things we have grown up with, the expectations and attitudes of our societies collectively. You can't treat us like animals and pretend that you are David Attenborough like you are right now. Research as much as you want about us. But researching and knowing is one thing. Experiencing these things is another thing. That's why I take issue with you trying to speak out for me or anyone who is a minority. You have no right to paint us with any distasteful brush or throw us under the bus because we're pompous pigs according to you. Once a scholar told me there's no such thing as an Islamic name or an Islamic dress. These are both cultural. If a man becomes a Muslim, He does not need to change his name unless it's something Unislamic like a pagan name referring to a deity like Manat. You love appropriating middle eastern culture for yourself. Your entire identity and your posts come off as just another distasteful form of "Brownface". 

So I ask you sincerely to re-evaluate how your mind works and change your disrespectful attitude. Perhaps it'll stop you from giving unnecessary insights to matters you know nothing about. Marrying into a culture does not make you a part of that culture. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

 I am also muslim, Shia, proud to be, and have been for decades now. How old are you brother ? I have probably been muslim for longer than you have been alive.  I have lived in the Muslim community for decades, went to the masjids, attended majalis, spoke on Islamic topics at masjids, studied fiqh, quran, etc

Walaikum Asalam. 

Like I said in my original post, I'll quote this for you again: "These issues that we often talk about which includes marriage. These aren't Islamic issues like matters of fiqh or Islamic principles. You've every right to voice your opinions in anything Islamic but these issues are Ethnic issues". Being a Muslim or a Shi'a has nothing to do with our discussion. My ancestors were Shi'ah when your ancestors were Pagans. Does it really matter? This isn't some talent contest nor it's a religious discussion. If you were an Ayatollah, I'd say the same thing to you as I said in my OP. Again, Separate culture and separate ethnicity from Religion. Muslims have no color. Islam is not a Brown or White religion. It's just a religion.

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

 Let's make a chart and compare me and David Attenborough. Yes, both our ancestors have origins in Europe. That's about it. I was raised in the US, in California, not in Europe. I had more of my neighbors that were Hispanic than European. Again, I have lived in the Muslim community for decades. I lived these issues myself.

 

I didn't call you David Atten because he's white. I don't know who he is to you but to me he is a wildlife-nature narrator where you watch animal behavior and he gives you information about what the animals are doing. That's basically what your post came of as. You were spreading misinformation about my race based on your limited understanding. Your statement: "Notice Iman and Taqwa were not on the list (because most muslims men". )" -> You using the word "most" indicates size and proportion. According to you, a large majority of my race are Misogynistic-Beauty-Obsessed-Gluttony-Obsessed men where we only see these things whilst discounting everything else. I'm not like this. A lot of my friends and family are not like this. I'm sure a lot of brothers on this website are not like that. I'm sure a lot of people in societies aren't like this. It's the same as saying "Muslims are not terrorists but most terrorists are Muslims". A minority which is obsessed with these things exists in every country and society but you can't paint us all with the same brush. And it's very racist on your part to do so. Nor you can get away with saying racist things because you believe living in a South asian community for decades has somehow given you some sort of "pass" for saying stuff like that. The topic of marriage is more ethnic than religious because these gold-digging elements/marriage ceremonies/rituals are all ethnic based. Just the Nikkah is Islamic. How can a person who does not belong to that ethnicity understand things more perfectly than the one who is of that ethnicity and has seen these things since birth? You may have experienced these things on certain elements but you've only lived a trailer. We live the movie every day because we belong to this race. 

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

things that count (btw, skin / hair / eye color don't count, as is clear from many hadith as well as Quran). 

You're right. Things like skin/hair/eye color does not count in hadith and Quran but it does in this society. Any society. If we're in the West, You're treated differently than I am unless you have the word "Muslim" stamped on your forehead and if we were in let's say Pakistan. Then you'd be treated differently than I would be unless you have the word "Kafir" stamped on your forehead. The full ethnic experience can never be experienced by someone who is not of that place. I can't speak on various issues to do with White communities because I'm not white. I could've grown up in some Utah gated Mormon society, had some experiences and interactions so I can give opinions on some things but I can't hijack myself into everything because I'd be overstepping my limitation especially racial issues. And that is how society works. I'm sorry if my words made you upset but your words came of as venomous to me. We can't be Pseudo-White or Pseudo-Brown at the end of the day. We can only be what we are. Certain experiences will be always locked to us and certain things will always be better understood to us. Same applies to your race.

Wasalam.

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Ok. I think I understand your objection now. At first, I thought you were upset because I, as a non Pakistani was commenting on Pakistani issues. Maybe I didn't frame my response correctly. It was a general response, and doesn't apply specifically to Pakistiani / Desi / South Asian, whatever you want to call it. What I said applies to men, in general, not just that group. There are many Iranian Men, Arab Men, Chinese Men, European Men who fit into this same category. They are obsessed with these criteria for a wife, have high demands for them, and thus have a very difficult time finding a spouse. Also, you think that Pakistani families are the only ones who have high demands for the husband as far as wealth ? From the contact that I have with Arabs, Iranians, I would say these families are probably more obsessed with this vs S. Asian families. This is my experience. It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know. I'm just telling you my experience and trying to make a general point, hoping someone would benefit.  I wasn't trying to criticize a certain community of muslims, that I admit are not part of my biological ancestry,  Sorry if you got that out of it and were offended. 

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20 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

 At first, I thought you were upset because I, as a non Pakistani was commenting on Pakistani issues. Maybe I didn't frame my response correctly. It was a general response, and doesn't apply specifically to Pakistiani / Desi / South Asian, whatever you want to call it.  Also, you think that Pakistani families are the only ones who have high demands for the husband as far as wealth ? From the contact that I have with Arabs, Iranians, I would say these families are probably more obsessed with this vs S. Asian families. 

When I was talking about "My race". I was referring to the Brown race collectively as a whole which includes Pakistanis, Indians, Arabs, Iranians, Middle easterns as all of the aforementioned races fall into the same racial classification which is "Brown". Historically, there's also been a ton of inter-marriage/migration on all sides of South Asia and Middle east. There's also a lot of things which are common culturally yet there are separations like language which is common. And like I said above. You can't paint us all with the same brush. It's racist to do so no matter what your experiences are. You don't have any free pass to say such things either. If you lived and grew up in Compton with African American friends who have allowed you to say certain racial things. If you go to Washington with a huge black community existing there as well, can you say the same things to them? If you can't do so in this scenario. Then you can't say these things to me or anyone else on this forum because this isn't Dearborn and you're not my decade long friend. "It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know." -> That's what all racial discrimination is.

 

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3 minutes ago, El Cid said:

When I was talking about "My race". I was referring to the Brown race collectively as a whole which includes Pakistanis, Indians, Arabs, Iranians, Middle easterns as all of the aforementioned races fall into the same racial classification which is "Brown". Historically, there's also been a ton of inter-marriage/migration on all sides of South Asia and Middle east. There's also a lot of things which are common culturally yet there are separations like language which is common. And like I said above. You can't paint us all with the same brush. It's racist to do so no matter what your experiences are. You don't have any free pass to say such things either. If you lived and grew up in Compton with African American friends who have allowed you to say certain racial things. If you go to Washington with a huge black community existing there as well, can you say the same things to them? If you can't do so in this scenario. Then you can't say these things to me or anyone else on this forum because this isn't Dearborn and you're not my decade long friend. "It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know." -> That's what all racial discrimination is.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but it's interesting, to me. You are objecting so strongly for me to say anything about anyone, I guess other than 'White' people (which I don't really know what that means anyway. There are Lebanese, I guess you would classify as 'brown' people who are 'whiter' than me), yet, if your location on your profile is correct, you live in Switzerland. I've never been there, but from what I know there's alot , or mostly 'white' people there.  If you look up where I live, Dearborn, there are very few 'white' people. There are some, maybe 30% of the population. The rest are African American (I live right next to Detroit), Arabs, South Asian, some Iranian, etc. So you are judging me and what I can't say based on who my ancestors were, not based on where I actually live, and my actual life experiences (which you know almost nothing about) or who I actually am in real life (which you also know almost nothing about, except the very litte which I choose to share here). Isn't that the definition of racism ? At the same time, I am not judging you based on that. So touche. If you want to say you won this debate, I guess in your mind you did. 

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35 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I guess we can agree to disagree on this,

There really isn't anything to disagree or agree in this.

35 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but it's interesting, to me. You are objecting so strongly for me to say anything about anyone, I guess other than 'White' people (which I don't really know what that means anyway. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people -> There you go. That's your racial classification.

35 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

There are Lebanese, I guess you would classify as 'brown' people who are 'whiter' than me), 

Them being more fair than you does not change their genetical disposition or their identity. Race has everything to do with your skin color, Genetics and your identity. You can't separate either/or but skin color is the main thing society perceives you as first. Any society.

35 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

. So you are judging me and what I can't say based on who my ancestors were, not based on where I actually live, and my actual life experiences (which you know almost nothing about) or who I actually am in real life (which you also know almost nothing about, except the very litte which I choose to share here). Isn't that the definition of racism ? 

No it isn't Racism. You making generalized statement about Brown people being Shallow-Misogynistic pigs is a racial one. Me telling you that Ethnic Issues can fully be understood and experienced by a person who belongs to that ethnicity is not a hateful racial statement nor it's anything to do with racism. It's common sense. I as a Brown male cannot fully live/experience life as a White male so who am I to comment on the various issues they face? Who am I to make racially motivated generalized statements about them? 

 

35 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

If you want to say you won this debate, I guess in your mind you did. 

I don't claim such "victories" over my fellow Shia's. A debate is an educational platform. If you changing your POV or understanding mine better happens. Then that's a victory.

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@El Cid is misrepresenting brother @Abu Hadi and in reality throwing him 'under the bus'  because he isn't of the right race to comment on a matter as he stated which not only plagues the minds of many brown people, but also European, and whatever race can be listed which I could care less of - considering that it is irrelevant. What he did was essentially disregard the kernel of the points he was mentioning and assume unjustly, without requesting clarification that Abu Hadi was simply addressing an issue with the 'brown community' and even if he was, I don't see what the issue is? You address the dear brother in such a disrespectful tone, I must say that his temperance and the way he handled your rhetoric was indeed near sublime, as you canceled all that he had to say due to his race. I am 100% Arab, I have lived the majority of my life in a Middle Eastern country, the people that I interact and work with are Middle Eastern and to think that I would stoop so low as to spew such racism as you just did truly makes me shiver. Allah created us with many differing tongues and colors, why? So that we may come to know one another. Why then do you put a barricade over an area in which the most merciful has drawn a bridge? 

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19 hours ago, El Cid said:

 

No it isn't Racism. You making generalized statement about Brown people being Shallow-Misogynistic pigs is a racial one.

Final thought on this. I never made this statement about 'Brown' people. In fact if you look in all my posts on SC I have never used the term 'Brown' people, except to respond to you.  I don't use this term because it's a nonsense term. I don't mind debating with you, but please don't ascribe statements to me that I never made. That is highly offensive. I have explained 2 or 3 times now what I meant by the post that you objected to. I am done explaining it. It has nothing to do with your 'interpretation' that you stated above. If you refuse to accept my explanation and would rather cling onto this false idea in your mind about what I said, please keep it to yourself. 

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6 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Final thought on this. I never made this statement about 'Brown' people. In fact if you look in all my posts on SC I have never used the term 'Brown' people.  I don't mind debating with you, but please don't ascribe statements to me that I never made. That is highly offensive. I have explained 2 or 3 times now what I meant by the post that you objected to.

Don't lie or hide behind your words. You can't take them back. You specifically referred to Brown people when you made that distasteful post above referring to us as misogynists. Evidence: 

"I think what the brother is trying to say is that there are alot of brothers on the site who throw up their hands and say 'I cannot find a wife'. What they are saying is true, but here is their definition of 'wife'" -> A lot of brothers on this site are ethnic men.

"(because most muslims men don't care about this compared to the other" -> The "most Muslim men" you referred to and painted in this light are Ethnic Brown men as well based on your later explainations where you boasted about integrating with South Asians/Middle Easterns so well. That is your view of them and me.

You described your statement as: "This is my experience. It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know" -> That's what all stereotypes/racial statements are.

"That is highly offensive" -> Yes, your racism is very offensive.

"It has nothing to do with your 'interpretation' that you stated above" -> My interpretation? The evidence is all in your words and posts.

And here I thought racism wasn't allowed on SC unless Abu Hadi does it?

It doesn't matter that you didn't explicitly say Brown people but everything you said applied to them above based on your stereotypes about them. Based on your descriptions involving "villages" and "regions". Based on your later explaination where you were telling me how well you know the South asian community/ME community as a whole.

Why deny it?

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8 minutes ago, El Cid said:

You specifically referred to Brown people when you made that distasteful post above referring to us as misogynists. Evidence: 

"I think what the brother is trying to say is that there are alot of brothers on the site who throw up their hands and say 'I cannot find a wife'. What they are saying is true, but here is their definition of 'wife'" -> A lot of brothers on this site are ethnic men.

Abu Hadi originally made that remark in reply to my post. I didn't find anything racial in his statement  at all. It is a generalised view and nobody can disagree to it. I don't understand how you have so vehemently believed that he is attacking brown men! 

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Just now, Anonymous-Male said:

Abu Hadi originally made that remark in reply to my post. I didn't find anything racial in his statement  at all. It is a generalised view and nobody can disagree to it. I don't understand how you have so vehemently believed that he is attacking brown men! 

He know what he said. Let him Answer or hide on his words. @Abu Hadi

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55 minutes ago, Anonymous-Male said:

I didn't find anything racial in his statement  at all.

If you didn't nor you can see anything wrong with it. Then I'm sad to say that you're part of the problem and one of the reasons why racist people like Abu Hadi can make degoratory remarks like that.

55 minutes ago, Anonymous-Male said:

. I don't understand how you have so vehemently believed that he is attacking brown men! 

His words: (because most muslims men)+Later posts justifying his view of Brown men given on his "experiences"

What does most mean? : A majority(more than half). A comfortable majority(more than half)

According to google, Muslim men come from these regions in the high numbers in the Ummah: Middle East and South Asia with 91% being in ME. What is the racial classification of these regions? Brown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_(racial_classification)

So put everything together His statement: Most Brown Men are misogynist Because we want our women to be submissive to our will, cook and be highly beautiful. We don't care about anything else because we only operate on Lust+Gluttony+Oppression. And a Large majority of us are like that. Excuse me but what the heck? This isn't racist?

it meant this post @starlight

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Most Brown Men are misogynist Because we want our women to be submissive to our will, cook and be highly beautiful. We don't care about anything else because we only operate on Lust+Gluttony+Oppression. And a Large majority of us are like that. Excuse me but what the heck? This isn't racist?

I don't think he said this. What he meant was most young men go by the superficial,worldly criteria when looking for a spouse and that reduces the chances of them finding a wife.

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9 minutes ago, starlight said:

I don't think he said this. What he meant was most young men go by the superficial,worldly criteria when looking for a spouse and that reduces the chances of them finding a wife.

He used the word "Most Muslim Men" and "Most Brothers on this website" He did not use the word "Most young men". He was specifically referring to most Muslim men.(I've shown you above the ethnic group of these "most muslim men") Then he later went on a tirade about how His opinion is based on his experience with Middle Easterns and South Asians(Brown people) which is more evidence of his racial tirade. Then later he admitted he generalized all of us.

I've shown you above all the evidences and all the meanings of his words above. Either I've lost my grip on the English language or everyone else is covering up for him. I don't see why it's so hard to see the racial tones in his words or everyone is just so use to this casual racism that it looks so strange today seeing someone called out for it.

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19 minutes ago, El Cid said:

He used the word "Most Muslim Men" and "Most Brothers on this website"

He was referring to men looking for a wife, so I suppose they are young. 

I remember your post from a week or so ago in which you talked about how divorced women are treated in Muslim societies(social outcast,poor chances of remarriage etc), if I remember correctly you did mention that it was more of problem in countries like Pakistan and they stand a better chance in non Muslim western societies. There are cultural differences that impact marriage issues so even if someone suggests this that's his opinion. You can refute it if you want but please don't take it as a personal attack or racist comment because it wasn't.

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