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In the Name of God بسم الله

Risk of committing Zina - Please Help

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17 minutes ago, starlight said:

He was referring to men looking for a wife, so I suppose they are young. 

 

It's not what he meant or referred. It's how he said it.

 

17 minutes ago, starlight said:

if someone suggests this that's his opinion. You can refute it if you want but please don't take it as a personal attack or racist comment because it wasn't.

If someone makes a racist statement with all the ingridents of racism mentioned: " It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know." I shouldn't take it as a racist statement based on your ruling. Roger Roger.

May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) take away His mercy from those who hurt people through racism. Humiliate them in this world and the next for these derogatory statements/propoganda.

Edited by El Cid
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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

Either I've lost my grip on the English language or everyone else is covering up for him. 

Definitely the first one. 

Muslims are not a race, and every muslim is equally entitled to share their observations of issues within the community. 

Now please stop derailing the thread. 

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11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

=

Muslims are not a race, and every muslim is equally entitled to share their observations of issues within the community. 

 

You're right it isn't. But the Gentleman in question referred to "majority of Muslims". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a majority of Muslims share ME/Sub Heritage. Then the gentleman in question later clarified himself that he was referring to those ethnic groups because of his unlimited experience with them.

11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Definitely the first one. 

 

You can try to cover up his racist Freudian slip as much as you want with all the other mods.

Here's a pro tip: Making sassy remarks on my quotes and ignoring all of them isn't going to let the situation die. You want it to die? Silence your tongue like I did after my closing statement.

Wasalam.

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a majority of Muslims share ME/Sub Heritage

The fact that you lump completely different cultures into one 'heritage' in itself indicates the flaw in your attempted argument. 

The muslim world is too diverse for such comparisons. The largest muslim population is in Indonesia. Central Africa has large muslim populations as well. Arabic speaking countries themselves are very different to each other. The berber in Morocco doesn't have the same culture as the bedouin in Najd. Even in the indian subcontinent, the keralite muslim has a different culture (and race for that matter) to the pashtun from NWFP. 

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread further than it already has been. I think the situation is clear enough to anyone who reads through the thread with a clear mind. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The fact that you lump completely different cultures into one 'heritage' in itself indicates the flaw in your attempted argument. 

The muslim world is too diverse for such comparisons. The largest muslim population is in Indonesia. Central Africa has large muslim populations as well. Arabic speaking countries themselves are very different to each other. The berber in Morocco doesn't have the same culture as the bedouin in Najd. Even in the indian subcontinent, the keralite muslim has a different culture (and race for that matter) to the pashtun from NWFP. 

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread further than it already has been. I think the situation is clear enough to anyone who reads through the thread with a clear mind. 

There is no flaw in my argument. I was referring to Ethnicity when I said heritage. He summed up all of these peoples and cultures as misogynist. He clearly referred to people of ME/Sub as such based on his "experience":

"This is my experience. It is generalization. It might be false, I don't know." when referring to Ethnic men from ME/Sub.

You keep telling me not to derail this topic yet you're so determined to cover up his tracks at the same time. Quite a paradox and quite sad. Shows your level of Imaan clearly for anyone with a clear mind.

Edited by El Cid
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Salam, 

@El Cid I would advise you to please apologize to brother @Abu Hadi as I think your completely misunderstood, and took his generalized comment out of context. I read over your little debate, and brother hadi was nothing but respectful, however, you did not show him the same respect. 

Firstly, this is a public forum where users comment questions/topics, and users comment their opinions. It's very ignorant to ask brother Hadi not to comment of a public forum because he isn't a particular race.... that's actually racist in itself....... I am Pakistani, I found no offence in his generalized comment that is many will agree with. So what if he used the word "most muslim men", and "brothers", this is a religious based forum , and brother hadi is just being specific. You're the one who brought race/ethnicity into the conversation, not brother Hadi, and reading his comments he had no intention to speak of race. 

Secondly, it's ironic how you are attempting to criticize brother hadi for the fact that he isn't brown, and cannot "paint people with the same brush", while you have made generalization throughout your comments, and have acted like an elected spokes person for south asian men.

."Most modest men are even willing to settle on a lot of matters but this Kafir blood-sucking society won't wed their daughters because they don't have mines of Gold, oil-fields and Doctor degrees. That's the reality of this world. Parents these days will only give their daughters to rich men who will sexually and physically and mentally abuse them but it doesn't matter because they are rich(They will also cut their daughters off from relations if they divorce for those reasons) whilst financially modest guys are told to take a hike who would've treated their daughters right.

- Firstly, this is your own opinion, without any factual evidence... you just painted ALL parents, and ALL rich men with the same brush

-You just "discriminated" against muslim parents, and generalized rich men as sexual, physical, and mental abusers............. 

Your main points where that brother hadi couldn't paint people with the same brush, and could not speak upon ethnic issues, however, you've just done the exact thing you are triggered on..... and NOOO you did not use " south asian culture", so don't try to say "oh I was talking about south asian's so it's okay". 

By the way I do not remember electing you as my representative, and please do not speak on behalf of us south asian men. Actually, brown is a very disrespectful , south asian, middle-eastern, etc are proper terms brother. 

The hypocrisy , and irony made me lose faith in humanity a bit..... Sorry brother hadi you had to deal with this. 

Edited by YoungSkiekh313
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On 10/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam, 

@El Cid I would advise you to please apologize to brother @Abu Hadi as I think your completely misunderstood, and took his generalized comment out of context. I read over your little debate, and brother hadi was nothing but respectful, however, you did not show him the same respect. 

 

I read this and figured is it even worth replying anymore now that the OP has conveniently disappeared but then whilst reading this. A certain mercy overtook me where I felt like I could educate someone on right and wrong since clearly everyone around him failed miserably in doing so. Don't worry. Let's discuss.

On 10/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam, 

@El Cid I would advise you to please apologize to brother @Abu Hadi as I think your completely misunderstood, and took his generalized comment out of context. I read over your little debate, and brother hadi was nothing but respectful, however, you did not show him the same respect. 

 I am Pakistani, I found no offence in his generalized comment that is many will agree with. So what if he used the word "most muslim men", and "brothers", this is a religious based forum , and brother hadi is just being specific. You're the one who brought race/ethnicity into the conversation, not brother Hadi, and reading his comments he had no intention to speak of race. 

 

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of your own race that you serve as the many enablers of men like Abu Hadi who get away with saying polarizing things. I respect myself and members of my own race from different regions of the world. I've seen so much goodness in so many people all my life in all my travels. I refuse to have them polarized into this negative view. I've already proven what his words "most muslim men" referred to. He did bring in race and ethnicity later on as well when He told me his view is based on his experience with people like us and himself admitted it was a generalized view.  The words "Most Muslim men" is a racist statement and problematic in itself because of the way it's perceived and used in this world. Muslims have no color yet our ethnicity is the main victim of these various stereotypes and negative opinions of "Most muslim men." I'll show an example. Let's look at some Anti-Muslim images. I went onto google and I wrote down "Anti-Muslim images." I did not write "Anti islamic" or write "anti brown male muslim rhetoric" just the former. Let's look at the results:

9dedffe3a06ade2e515e802e242b50f3.png

37f5dd52f5825a3f9e4bebbda6993e6f262ef4fb

vOYnR1C.png

 

oS9apPh.jpg

unnamed-789x1024.png.webp

muslim-logic-and-the-quran_o_7263208.jpg

 

A racial joke:

JhgO8It.jpg

 

What's the common thing in all these images? Which race is being portrayed in them when they say the word "Muslims" in all of these? The Brown race is almost synonymous with being a Muslim based on a variety of different things. It's how this realm works. They attack both our religion and our ethnicity at the same time whilst separating any other race from their rhetoric. These people have also gotten smarter over the years, back when they used the words "swarthy, Desert dwellers more offensive things like the aforementioned words" for Muslims. People started attacking their imagery and thoughts as pure racist which it was. Now they combine the two, the ethnicity and the religion at the same time. And when people yell racist. They cover up with these images: But you can clearly see who the image of Muslim is in all their works and what they want people to think.

3clcok.jpg

So how can we not take issue with this? "So what if he used the word "most muslim men".  ->This is another form of racist at it's peak. Muslim again is not a race. Go into another country whether it's West or East. Ask them to close their eyes and imagine a Muslim man. We tried this back when we wrote an article on stereotyping for our university gazette. Most of the time people described ethnic Arab or Subcontinental men. Go try this for yourself and report back the results. 

While we're on the issue of stereotype. This is the stereotype of Arab Muslims according to Jack Shaheen from his book "The TV Arab" :

Arab Muslims are fanatics who believe in a different god, who don't value human life as much as we do, they are intent on destroying us (the west) with their oil or with their terrorism; the men seek to abduct and brutally seduce our women; they are without family and reside in a primitive place (the desert) and behave like primitive beings. The women are subservient — resembling black crows — or we see them portrayed as mute, somewhat exotic harem maidens

Abu Hadi: 3. Will obey my every wish without me even having to ask her and will never question my orders / decisions.  Is stunningly beautiful in my eyes and also the eyes of my parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and village. A girl that my parents accept, who is from the same village / town / region as me and my parents. Speaks the same language as me, has the same culture

Are there any differences between the Stereotype Shaheen mentioned from his research and the stereotype Abu Hadi was propogating Muslim men to want? Not even a small minority but a large majority because of his words with the highlighted sentences being the most problematic in my eyes.

He said my post will be beneficial to someone. How can it be beneficial when it's turning people against a particular set of men? I remember a christian woman coming on this forum to gather information about Muslim men because her daughter was marrying one. I'm sure she would have been delighted reading @Abu Hadi's words.

And now you see why I got upset about this and still am.

Now for the parts which address me being a "Racist".

On 10/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

 

By the way I do not remember electing you as my representative, and please do not speak on behalf of us south asian men. Actually, brown is a very disrespectful , south asian, middle-eastern, etc are proper terms brother. 

I never said I am the representative of Brown men nor I speak on behalf of all South Asian men. Whether you disagree or agree with the term Brown. It's our racial classification(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_(racial_classification)) and how the world sees us. Can't change that. 

On 10/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam, 

@El Cid I would advise you to please apologize to brother @Abu Hadi as I think your completely misunderstood, and took his generalized comment out of context.

Secondly, it's ironic how you are attempting to criticize brother hadi for the fact that he isn't brown, and cannot "paint people with the same brush", while you have made generalization throughout your comments, and have acted like an elected spokes person for south asian men.

."Most modest men are even willing to settle on a lot of matters but this Kafir blood-sucking society won't wed their daughters because they don't have mines of Gold, oil-fields and Doctor degrees. That's the reality of this world. Parents these days will only give their daughters to rich men who will sexually and physically and mentally abuse them but it doesn't matter because they are rich(They will also cut their daughters off from relations if they divorce for those reasons) whilst financially modest guys are told to take a hike who would've treated their daughters right.

- Firstly, this is your own opinion, without any factual evidence... you just painted ALL parents, and ALL rich men with the same brush

-You just "discriminated" against muslim parents, and generalized rich men as sexual, physical, and mental abusers............. 

You've quoted my post in bold italics. Where do I use the word Brown, Muslim Parents, Muslim, Most Muslims, Anything resembling the sort? Arrange-marriage system is not only limited to Muslims. You and Abu Hadi operate on stereotypes so you wouldn't know ofcourse. This is a problem which is plaguing so many women world-wide in societies like India and Pakistan where rich foreign men are marrying ethnic women from these regions. Bringing them over to the United States/Canada/Anywhere and abusing them in all the ways I mentioned above. Incase you've been viewing the world deaf, blind and dumb; It's not that hard to miss. Parents of these women especially push their daughters into marriages with men they view as rich in some capacity(Wealth, Foreign Residence, Etc). Go on and ask people in your society about this. You'll hear a dozen of cases from the hundreds I've seen so far. My aunt in Tennessee runs a support group for women who suffer domestic abuse with other members of her society, This a very common instance. There's also the reverse situation where wealthy foreign based men are marrying women in their home-countries. Then abandoning them completely. And these are the cases I was referring to in that post. If I have discriminated against anyone based on this world-wide pandemic happening, My apologies for sounding classist rather than racist because I'm never the latter. 

If my posts above were pertaining to acts of racism. Then I would have made racist generalized remarks about European Males and attempted to throw them under the bus somehow. I didn't. Abu Hadi did and admitted to doing so. If you think I made a generalized statement about "Most Modest Men" with the keyword here being "Modest" rather than south asian men or any other ethnicity involved. It was a positive statement referring to the levels of modesty I've encountered in different men of all races. There's no misinterpretation in it nor there's anything to ponder over. You're trying to include race somehow in my original statement but sadly it's just not working out for you properly whilst I have shown you above of all the evidences of racial tones in his original words which you can choose to ignore. Fine by me.

"Secondly, it's ironic how you are attempting to criticize brother hadi for the fact that he isn't brown,"

Let me share with you more thoughts on my opinion on this matter. My thesis statement: Members of different Races/Ethnicity should not comment and get involved in matters pertaining to of another Race/Ethnicity. This is my statement and my belief. It's seen as racist apparently but allow me to expand on my reasoning.

One cannot deny the fact that Race applies to dynamics of social interaction. One can deny this all they want but it's the truth. What we fail to understand in this realization is that often when we think of race influencing an outcome/interaction. We think of this negatively for example racial discrimination, minority being treated unfairly by authority, racist remarks. Some type of oppression basically which is why we fail to see the other situations where race comes to play. A brother above said how can we draw bridges over race? I have not. This world and society has from the times of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Let me share with you an example from my own race. When I first came to a western country. Some people warned me not to mingle or associate with Pakistanis because they are "tricksters and fraudsters". Pakistanis said this to me. I said well aren't we Pakistanis as well? They said well we're of a different sort. This was a negative outcome of race influencing society. Once I was at a Mall with my aunt and her younger son. They wanted to shop, I only wanted to go to the food court and then sit down somewhere. After I ate, I went and sat down in an area which was opposite the bathroom and had a charging booth. So I sat there. A Pakistani woman came to me asked me if I was Pakistani. I replied yes. She asked me if I can watch over her bags while she went to the restroom. I said okay no problem. There were 2 men sitting who were hispanic and one oriental looking woman in the same area next to me. I set her bags down on the floor, I noticed some of them were branded items. I took care of them as they were my own given that's our Sunnah and it's morality. But why did she choose me out of everyone there? My race gave her the assumption that I was a good person and my race was the reason she chose me out of anyone else. She operated on that stereotype of us Pakistani men having respect for our elders. For all she knew I could've been a bigger crook than Nawaz Sharif and I hated elders but she took a chance on the good gamble and it turned out favourbly for her. This was a positive outcome of a social interaction based on race. Now for being treated the same way by another ethnicity. I won't say which was the ethnicity. In my church goings, I was treated very well by people and they were eager to know things about my race and culture. Positive outcome. I was in a supermarket once in the checkout line. Two men were talking, they looked at me and said "This is a nice country. If only certain people didn't come spreading dangerous ideology.". This was a negative outcome. While we can integrate within a particular community but the sad thing is that people of all walks of life will look at our race first rather than our belief system. There will be certain experiences and certain things which will only be exclusive in being experienced by a particular ethnicity in any setting whether it's west or east. There is a alot of Anti-White Male rhetoric going on in today's world. Can I as a Brown male experience it fully? If I comment on it. There could be a chance me downplaying it in my words would hurt the sentiments of White Males who go through this. If I overplay it, it could result in the same. Is it worth it to comment on something I may attempt to understand but I never will fully? 

The second thing is that certain things are benefits and privillages only exclusive to members of your own race. Let me give you two examples. Sardar-Sikh jokes of Sikh men being illiterate, gullible, moronic were actually started by Sikh males themselves but it got out of hand when other people of other races started telling them and it developed into a stereotype. They were okay with themselves doing this but their sentiments got hurt to the point where they stormed a PNC office, protested and demanded a scene in a bollywood movie be removed where an actor tries to cheer up a person by telling a Sikh joke. Another example, African-Americans use a certain word amongst themselves but they get offended and it's seen as racist when people of other races say that word to them whether in light hearted tone or warm tone or any harsh tone or any other tone. 

Let me add another example. If I go to an Indian right now and tell him how rape is such a big problem in his country and I'll help him in providing solutions to combat this plague. He won't see me as being helpful or think of it as a constructive criticism. The first thing he'll do is take it as a racial insult because I'm a Pakistani and remind me of how Terrorism is such a big problem in my country. And it'll turn into a bloody hateful speech from both sides afterwards. Now if an Indian went to that Indian, said the same. They will agree and work on solutions but if I say it. It's a problem. What can we take from this? Members who are not part of that race, they hurt the sentiments of other races when they try to get involved in their ethnic issues. Why? Because it's seen as an attack on them. It may have truth on it or not. But is it worth it for me to go upset someone even if my intentions were good? 

That's why I say don't stick your leg in ethnic issues of other races. The only time we can are when there's a social injustice going on against any race. Then we have to step in and stand with them in solidarity for example you can see there's a large number of white people in the BLM movement. There's videos of naked White women standing in front of police in certain cities and the BLM protesters as a way of shielding them. This is how all of us can live in harmony and co-exist.

When I said all of this to Abu Hadi. I gave him the same respect and tolerance to him. It would have been hypocritical for me to talk on every matter around him whilst asking him not to do the same and racist.

We're all treated differently based on our ethnicity since birth. This won't change. Islam is against this but it's the way our society has functioned. 

Skip to 1:27 and watch till 2:10. A person of a different ethnicity cannot fully experience what's it like being a person of another ethnicity. Because of this limited experience. How can someone of a different race know your ethnic issues better than you do? Or tell you they understand and go through all the things you do?

On 10/25/2020 at 9:01 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

 

The hypocrisy , and irony made me lose faith in humanity a bit..... Sorry brother hadi you had to deal with this. 

Perhaps don't jump on a bandwagon too soon. Sorry for your shaken up core beliefs.

My response is the same for anyone else.

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Sides notes:

Wasalam.

To any mod: Don't remove the Anti-Muslim images in the above post. They aren't there for the purposes of entertainment, racism, hurting anyone. It's for the purpose of education and to show everyone how both religion and race is being attacked.

 

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

I read this and figured is it even worth replying anymore now that the OP has conveniently disappeared but then whilst reading this. A certain mercy overtook me where I felt like I could educate someone on right and wrong since clearly everyone around him failed miserably in doing so. Don't worry. Let's discuss.

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of your own race that you serve as the many enablers of men like Abu Hadi who get away with saying polarizing things. I respect myself and members of my own race from different regions of the world. I've seen so much goodness in so many people all my life in all my travels. I refuse to have them polarized into this negative view. I've already proven what his words "most muslim men" referred to. He did bring in race and ethnicity later on as well when He told me his view is based on his experience with people like us and himself admitted it was a generalized view.  The words "Most Muslim men" is a racist statement and problematic in itself because of the way it's perceived and used in this world. Muslims have no color yet our ethnicity is the main victim of these various stereotypes and negative opinions of "Most muslim men." I'll show an example. Let's look at some Anti-Muslim images. I went onto google and I wrote down "Anti-Muslim images." I did not write "Anti islamic" or write "anti brown male muslim rhetoric" just the former. Let's look at the results:

9dedffe3a06ade2e515e802e242b50f3.png

37f5dd52f5825a3f9e4bebbda6993e6f262ef4fb

vOYnR1C.png

 

oS9apPh.jpg

unnamed-789x1024.png.webp

muslim-logic-and-the-quran_o_7263208.jpg

 

A racial joke:

JhgO8It.jpg

 

What's the common thing in all these images? Which race is being portrayed in them when they say the word "Muslims" in all of these? The Brown race is almost synonymous with being a Muslim based on a variety of different things. It's how this realm works. They attack both our religion and our ethnicity at the same time whilst separating any other race from their rhetoric. These people have also gotten smarter over the years, back when they used the words "swarthy, Desert dwellers more offensive things like the aforementioned words" for Muslims. People started attacking their imagery and thoughts as pure racist which it was. Now they combine the two, the ethnicity and the religion at the same time. And when people yell racist. They cover up with these images: But you can clearly see who the image of Muslim is in all their works and what they want people to think.

3clcok.jpg

So how can we not take issue with this? "So what if he used the word "most muslim men".  ->This is another form of racist at it's peak. Muslim again is not a race. Go into another country whether it's West or East. Ask them to close their eyes and imagine a Muslim man. We tried this back when we wrote an article on stereotyping for our university gazette. Most of the time people described ethnic Arab or Subcontinental men. Go try this for yourself and report back the results. 

While we're on the issue of stereotype. This is the stereotype of Arab Muslims according to Jack Shaheen from his book "The TV Arab" :

Arab Muslims are fanatics who believe in a different god, who don't value human life as much as we do, they are intent on destroying us (the west) with their oil or with their terrorism; the men seek to abduct and brutally seduce our women; they are without family and reside in a primitive place (the desert) and behave like primitive beings. The women are subservient — resembling black crows — or we see them portrayed as mute, somewhat exotic harem maidens

Abu Hadi: 3. Will obey my every wish without me even having to ask her and will never question my orders / decisions.  Is stunningly beautiful in my eyes and also the eyes of my parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and village. A girl that my parents accept, who is from the same village / town / region as me and my parents. Speaks the same language as me, has the same culture

Are there any differences between the Stereotype Shaheen mentioned from his research and the stereotype Abu Hadi was propogating Muslim men to want? Not even a small minority but a large majority because of his words with the highlighted sentences being the most problematic in my eyes.

He said my post will be beneficial to someone. How can it be beneficial when it's turning people against a particular set of men? I remember a christian woman coming on this forum to gather information about Muslim men because her daughter was marrying one. I'm sure she would have been delighted reading @Abu Hadi's words.

And now you see why I got upset about this and still am.

Now for the parts which address me being a "Racist".

I never said I am the representative of Brown men nor I speak on behalf of all South Asian men. Whether you disagree or agree with the term Brown. It's our racial classification(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_(racial_classification)) and how the world sees us. Can't change that. 

You've quoted my post in bold italics. Where do I use the word Brown, Muslim Parents, Muslim, Most Muslims, Anything resembling the sort? Arrange-marriage system is not only limited to Muslims. You and Abu Hadi operate on stereotypes so you wouldn't know ofcourse. This is a problem which is plaguing so many women world-wide in societies like India and Pakistan where rich foreign men are marrying ethnic women from these regions. Bringing them over to the United States/Canada/Anywhere and abusing them in all the ways I mentioned above. Incase you've been viewing the world deaf, blind and dumb; It's not that hard to miss. Parents of these women especially push their daughters into marriages with men they view as rich in some capacity(Wealth, Foreign Residence, Etc). Go on and ask people in your society about this. You'll hear a dozen of cases from the hundreds I've seen so far. My aunt in Tennessee runs a support group for women who suffer domestic abuse with other members of her society, This a very common instance. There's also the reverse situation where wealthy foreign based men are marrying women in their home-countries. Then abandoning them completely. And these are the cases I was referring to in that post. If I have discriminated against anyone based on this world-wide pandemic happening, My apologies for sounding classist rather than racist because I'm never the latter. 

If my posts above were pertaining to acts of racism. Then I would have made racist generalized remarks about European Males and attempted to throw them under the bus somehow. I didn't. Abu Hadi did and admitted to doing so. If you think I made a generalized statement about "Most Modest Men" with the keyword here being "Modest" rather than south asian men or any other ethnicity involved. It was a positive statement referring to the levels of modesty I've encountered in different men of all races. There's no misinterpretation in it nor there's anything to ponder over. You're trying to include race somehow in my original statement but sadly it's just not working out for you properly whilst I have shown you above of all the evidences of racial tones in his original words which you can choose to ignore. Fine by me.

"Secondly, it's ironic how you are attempting to criticize brother hadi for the fact that he isn't brown,"

Let me share with you more thoughts on my opinion on this matter. My thesis statement: Members of different Races/Ethnicity should not comment and get involved in matters pertaining to of another Race/Ethnicity. This is my statement and my belief. It's seen as racist apparently but allow me to expand on my reasoning.

One cannot deny the fact that Race applies to dynamics of social interaction. One can deny this all they want but it's the truth. What we fail to understand in this realization is that often when we think of race influencing an outcome/interaction. We think of this negatively for example racial discrimination, minority being treated unfairly by authority, racist remarks. Some type of oppression basically which is why we fail to see the other situations where race comes to play. A brother above said how can we draw bridges over race? I have not. This world and society has from the times of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Let me share with you an example from my own race. When I first came to a western country. Some people warned me not to mingle or associate with Pakistanis because they are "tricksters and fraudsters". Pakistanis said this to me. I said well aren't we Pakistanis as well? They said well we're of a different sort. This was a negative outcome of race influencing society. Once I was at a Mall with my aunt and her younger son. They wanted to shop, I only wanted to go to the food court and then sit down somewhere. After I ate, I went and sat down in an area which was opposite the bathroom and had a charging booth. So I sat there. A Pakistani woman came to me asked me if I was Pakistani. I replied yes. She asked me if I can watch over her bags while she went to the restroom. I said okay no problem. There were 2 men sitting who were hispanic and one oriental looking woman in the same area next to me. I set her bags down on the floor, I noticed some of them were branded items. I took care of them as they were my own given that's our Sunnah and it's morality. But why did she choose me out of everyone there? My race gave her the assumption that I was a good person and my race was the reason she chose me out of anyone else. She operated on that stereotype of us Pakistani men having respect for our elders. For all she knew I could've been a bigger crook than Nawaz Sharif and I hated elders but she took a chance on the good gamble and it turned out favourbly for her. This was a positive outcome of a social interaction based on race. Now for being treated the same way by another ethnicity. I won't say which was the ethnicity. In my church goings, I was treated very well by people and they were eager to know things about my race and culture. Positive outcome. I was in a supermarket once in the checkout line. Two men were talking, they looked at me and said "This is a nice country. If only certain people didn't come spreading dangerous ideology.". This was a negative outcome. While we can integrate within a particular community but the sad thing is that people of all walks of life will look at our race first rather than our belief system. There will be certain experiences and certain things which will only be exclusive in being experienced by a particular ethnicity in any setting whether it's west or east. There is a alot of Anti-White Male rhetoric going on in today's world. Can I as a Brown male experience it fully? If I comment on it. There could be a chance me downplaying it in my words would hurt the sentiments of White Males who go through this. If I overplay it, it could result in the same. Is it worth it to comment on something I may attempt to understand but I never will fully? 

The second thing is that certain things are benefits and privillages only exclusive to members of your own race. Let me give you two examples. Sardar-Sikh jokes of Sikh men being illiterate, gullible, moronic were actually started by Sikh males themselves but it got out of hand when other people of other races started telling them and it developed into a stereotype. They were okay with themselves doing this but their sentiments got hurt to the point where they stormed a PNC office, protested and demanded a scene in a bollywood movie be removed where an actor tries to cheer up a person by telling a Sikh joke. Another example, African-Americans use a certain word amongst themselves but they get offended and it's seen as racist when people of other races say that word to them whether in light hearted tone or warm tone or any harsh tone or any other tone. 

Let me add another example. If I go to an Indian right now and tell him how rape is such a big problem in his country and I'll help him in providing solutions to combat this plague. He won't see me as being helpful or think of it as a constructive criticism. The first thing he'll do is take it as a racial insult because I'm a Pakistani and remind me of how Terrorism is such a big problem in my country. And it'll turn into a bloody hateful speech from both sides afterwards. Now if an Indian went to that Indian, said the same. They will agree and work on solutions but if I say it. It's a problem. What can we take from this? Members who are not part of that race, they hurt the sentiments of other races when they try to get involved in their ethnic issues. Why? Because it's seen as an attack on them. It may have truth on it or not. But is it worth it for me to go upset someone even if my intentions were good? 

That's why I say don't stick your leg in ethnic issues of other races. The only time we can are when there's a social injustice going on against any race. Then we have to step in and stand with them in solidarity for example you can see there's a large number of white people in the BLM movement. There's videos of naked White women standing in front of police in certain cities and the BLM protesters as a way of shielding them. This is how all of us can live in harmony and co-exist.

When I said all of this to Abu Hadi. I gave him the same respect and tolerance to him. It would have been hypocritical for me to talk on every matter around him whilst asking him not to do the same and racist.

We're all treated differently based on our ethnicity since birth. This won't change. Islam is against this but it's the way our society has functioned. 

Skip to 1:27 and watch till 2:10. A person of a different ethnicity cannot fully experience what's it like being a person of another ethnicity. Because of this limited experience. How can someone of a different race know your ethnic issues better than you do? Or tell you they understand and go through all the things you do?

Perhaps don't jump on a bandwagon too soon. Sorry for your shaken up core beliefs.

My response is the same for anyone else.

I stopped reading when you used memes to prove a supposed academic argument...... 

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11 minutes ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

I stopped reading when you used memes to prove a supposed academic argument...... 

Then it's time to wake up.

Memes are now weaponized and used for propaganda. 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/10/24/132228/political-war-memes-disinformation/

And perhaps a bit of respect is also in order. I read your post no matter how nonsensical or perfectly logical I found it because you devoted a certain amount of time to express your opinion. As did I. Quite childish behavior.

Edited by El Cid
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On 10/27/2020 at 4:21 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

I stopped reading when you used memes to prove a supposed academic argument...... 

Also one more thing. Propaganda has a variety of forms from Movies/Films/Shows, Political rallies, Military Parades, Posters. Anything.

In our current generation, Memes are the best and most effective forms of propaganda available right now. For anyone who didn't bother opening up that link because reading is quite difficult. Let me share with you this excerpt:

"And while a lot of people think of memes as harmless entertainment—funny, snarky comments on current events—we’re far beyond that now. Meme wars are a consistent feature of our politics, and they’re not just being used by internet trolls or some bored kids in the basement, but by governments, political candidates, and activists across the globe."

"Russia used memes and other social-media tricks to influence the US election in 2016, using a troll farm known as the Internet Research Agency to seed pro-Trump and anti-Clinton content across various online platforms. Both sides in territorial conflicts like those between Hong Kong and China, Gaza and Israel, and India and Pakistan are using memes and viral propaganda to sway both local and international sentiment."

The above Anti-Muslim Memes that I posted above are all the example of politically weaponized memes against Muslims/Ethnic people. For example The "Europeans disappearing" meme is to raise panic and create an atmosphere of Anti-Immigration/Refugee/Ethnic sentiments. 

In World-War II. Propaganda posters were used. I guess the OP would also burn and trash books about WW2 if they talked about such posters following his incompetence and logic. For example:

Hannah-Miles-Figure-1.jpg

Really what is the difference between this piece of Propaganda and the Propaganda above with a Muslim man holding an AK-47 up to the populace?

The answer is nothing.

Anyway, everyone has all conveniently disappeared again. They all come to cheer and hoot when another desensitized apologist comes up to take issue.

Otherwise, radio silence.

 

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1 hour ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Salams, didn't the OP want help and advice with regards to avoiding zina. Where did all this propaganda come from.

When I say "OP" It refers to @Abu Hadi and this post:

I think what the brother is trying to say is that there are alot of brothers on the site who throw up their hands and say 'I cannot find a wife'. What they are saying is true, but here is their definition of 'wife'

1. A girl that my parents accept, who is from the same village / town / region as me and my parents. Speaks the same language as me, has the same culture

2. Is stunningly beautiful in my eyes and also the eyes of my parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and village.

3. Will obey my every wish without me even having to ask her and will never question my orders / decisions. 

4. Has the cooking skills of a five star chef and the cleaning and child rearing skills of Mary Poppins

Now if this is the definition of 'wife', then yes, I agree you may have a hard time finding this 'wife' and she may not even exist. So if you are looking for this 'wife', that might be the problem. The more of these issues you are willing to compromise on, the easier it will be to get married. 

Notice Iman and Taqwa were not on the list (because most muslims men don't care about this compared to the other 4). But according to all teaching that I am aware of (Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imams((عليه السلام))) these are the most important. 

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2 minutes ago, El Cid said:

When I say "OP" It refers to @Abu Hadi and this post:

I think what the brother is trying to say is that there are alot of brothers on the site who throw up their hands and say 'I cannot find a wife'. What they are saying is true, but here is their definition of 'wife'

1. A girl that my parents accept, who is from the same village / town / region as me and my parents. Speaks the same language as me, has the same culture

2. Is stunningly beautiful in my eyes and also the eyes of my parents, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and village.

3. Will obey my every wish without me even having to ask her and will never question my orders / decisions. 

4. Has the cooking skills of a five star chef and the cleaning and child rearing skills of Mary Poppins

Now if this is the definition of 'wife', then yes, I agree you may have a hard time finding this 'wife' and she may not even exist. So if you are looking for this 'wife', that might be the problem. The more of these issues you are willing to compromise on, the easier it will be to get married. 

Notice Iman and Taqwa were not on the list (because most muslims men don't care about this compared to the other 4). But according to all teaching that I am aware of (Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imams((عليه السلام))) these are the most important. 

Yeah I understand what you're trying to say, if you have extremely high standards and expectations then yeah it is going to be difficult finding a wife. I agree with what you say, religion is the most important thing. Some may have the most beautiful wife but their iman might not be strong, it's better to have a wife whose life revolves around Islam. 

Thanks for my clarifying my confusion above.

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43 minutes ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Yeah I understand what you're trying to say, if you have extremely high standards and expectations then yeah it is going to be difficult finding a wife. I agree with what you say, religion is the most important thing. Some may have the most beautiful wife but their iman might not be strong, it's better to have a wife whose life revolves around Islam. 

Thanks for my clarifying my confusion above.

No worries. I don't have any problem with this either: "if you have extremely high standards and expectations then yeah it is going to be difficult finding a wife. I agree with what you say, religion is the most important thing". I only have a problem with the racist ethnic stereotyped way He said it with. And I've explained above everything.

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