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Music in Islam?

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Guest Smma

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Salam

I know that Islam forbids music which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires

I wanted to know what it says about music that has none of these things. Also i have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true? 

If possible, also include hadith/w source with your answer.

Jazakallah khair

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There's whole chapter in book Gunahane Kabirah (Greater sins) for music. 

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq(عليه السلام) reports from the Holy Prophet (S) that he said:

“I prohibit for you dancing and playing flute, drums and tabla.”

Amir ul-Mu’minīn ‘Ali (عليه السلام) says,

“Angels do not even enter a house that has wine, drum, tambourine or a flute. Even the prayers of the inhabitants of this house are unacceptable. They are deprived of barakat.”

Hazrat Imam ‘Ali ar-Riďa (عليه السلام) has said,

“To listen to a musical instrument is one of the Greater Sins.”

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/fifteenth-greater-sin-music

 

There's fiqhi perspective, which categorizes most of music haraam. It even extends to recitation of the Holy Qur’ãn, supplications (du‘ãs), and songs of praise of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).) uttered to the accompaniment of those tunes [that are used by the entertainers]. 

https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01246/

Edited by Sirius_Bright
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On 10/15/2020 at 5:46 AM, Guest Smma said:

Salam

I know that Islam forbids music which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires

I wanted to know what it says about music that has none of these things. Also i have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true? 

If possible, also include hadith/w source with your answer.

Jazakallah khair

Check with your marja' due to the differences in opinions.

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:16 AM, Guest Smma said:

wanted to know what it says about music that has none of these things. Also i have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true? 

Classical music which doesn't contain the things you mentioned above is allowed. 

Long story short, al Ghina is Haram. And any music that can be connected to Ghina in popular opinions is Haram. 

From Sayed al Sistani (RA):

1Question: Is it permissible to listen to songs accompanied by sounds of piano, lute, drum, wind-pipe, and electronic piano?

Answer: If the music accompanying it is that which is suitable for entertainment and amusement gatherings, it is not permissible to listen to it.
 
2Question: Is it permissible for women and men, in weddings, to beat the drums or bang on household pots and pans?
Answer: Beating on drums, striking tambourine and playing similar instruments made to be beaten on is not permissible. However beating on other items for example household pans and pots is not prohibited in itself, although it should be avoided based on precautionary ruling.
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55 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Answer: If the music accompanying it is that which is suitable for entertainment and amusement gatherings, it is not permissible to listen

Can’t we assume that entertainment gatherings = haram dance parties with drugs and all that jazz. Not necessarily entertainment gatherings that are familial with music playing in the background. The context matters. Some entertainment gatherings are Haram. And by entertaining gatherings, it would only be Haram entertainment gatherings. 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

That is not what the ruling is saying. 

 

We are talking about Haram. What would be Haram? A normal entertainment gathering where friends and family are invited, people eat dinner, and no Haram beverages are available? Or is Haram an entertainment gathering that invites belly dancers, and has alcohol and people get drunk and high? 
 

If the Marjas are talking about entertainment gatherings, they are likely referring to the one that is Haram. 

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Define entertainment gathering. Does a group of people playing ludo or monopoly together (forms of entertainment) count as "entertainment gatherings"?

In cases like these, the translated fatwa doesn't do justice to the original, precise Arabic terminology used to derive such rulings.

 

edit: the background music of a game during a LAN tournament. Such music, in 'urf, is associated with this particular gathering, which can also be called an entertainment gathering.

another example: the passing out parade of a military academy, attended by parents and family of the graduating cadet, often have cadets marching to the tune of military music. This music often follows the tune of popular folk songs. The parade has elements of "entertainment"; the spectating parents and families aren't there for strictly academic or ceremonial purposes.

Edited by Sabrejet
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2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Define entertainment gathering. Does a group of people playing ludo or monopoly together (forms of entertainment) count as "entertainment gatherings"?

This is halal entertainment. It is permissible. The question is not about entertainment but music as a source to amuse or entertain. Exceptions are actually present if you read the entire ruling.

Like Classical music is permissible, music in the background of movies to catch attention is permissible, music to increase the morale of soldiers is permissible.

We do need to understand that it's not about how a layman percieves music because then it would become a random argument. But rather, how a musician or an artist distinguishes music. 

It depends upon tone, rhythm, lyrics etc. Basically all the parameters that classify music and singing into certain categories.

It doesn't matter what the folks are doing with that music. Music has it's own language.

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14 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This is halal entertainment. It is permissible. The question is not about entertainment but music as a source to amuse or entertain. Exceptions are actually present if you read the entire ruling.

Like Classical music is permissible, music in the background of movies to catch attention is permissible, music to increase the morale of soldiers is permissible.

We do need to understand that it's not about how a layman percieves music because then it would become a random argument. But rather, how a musician or an artist distinguishes music. 

It depends upon tone, rhythm, lyrics etc. Basically all the parameters that classify music and singing into certain categories.

It doesn't matter what the folks are doing with that music. Music has it's own language.

These fatwas don't differentiate between halal and haram gatherings, if I understand brother @Mahdavist correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Then again we have traditions and rulings that all forms of Al-Ghina are haram; singing them and listening to them. Al-Islam.org is full of books that say this.

From my understanding, al-ghina is the variation of pitch and lengthening of syllables in such a word that a person is said to be "singing" in 'urf e 'aam. (again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Btw military music is not a unique composition: it's just folk songs (some may argue al-ghina) played on instruments (instruments who's permissibility is questioned), often without singing. They are instantly recognizable as such.

 

I'm currently doing some research on my own on "entertainment gatherings". Something that mujtahids won't be open about is what "entertainment gatherings" have meant throughout history. In Jahilliyah and early Islam history, for example, it might have referred to mixed gatherings where drunken orgies took place (can you imagine Agha Sistani using such language?). "Music" (a misleading term) was played almost exclusively at such gatherings.

I'm sure that in 'urf, concerts don't refer to places where drunken orgies are taking place openly. (I'm not calling concerts halal here, just contrasting two "entertainment gatherings" from different time periods.)

Btw don't take my word for it; this is based on my own personal research, with some help from my brother. I'd rather not share the details of my sources until I'm clear on this matter myself.

 

Note: In general, I simply avoid listening to all forms of music intentionally until my own views are clear on this matter. It doesn't help that the fatwas of Ayatollahs are sometimes not clear when translated from original Arabic.

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18 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

I'm currently doing some research on my own on "entertainment gatherings". Something that mujtahids won't be open about is what "entertainment gatherings" have meant throughout history. In Jahilliyah and early Islam history, for example, it might have referred to mixed gatherings where drunken orgies took place (can you imagine Agha Sistani using such language?). "Music" (a misleading term) was played almost exclusively at such gatherings.

I would say that the differentiation of entertainment gatherings according to the context doesn't matter.

For Arifeen (for example), like Ayatullah Bahjat, a way to seek pleasure would be worship of Allah. 

Some people form an entertainment gatherings even at very small places. They just bring some snacks and cold drinks and have some good time, talking and having fun and for them it is an entertainment gathering (though nothing haram is happening and in the name of music, they might listen to a ghazal or classical poetics).

So, it's not entertainment gathering that we can refer to. a better reference would be the genre of the music. What kind of rhythm can be termed a song? What kind of music, according to a musician was made for an entertainment gathering? 

Only a musician or a music artist can provide the real differentiation.

As of following, I would say that in practical terms, most of all the music that we hear commonly is Haram. I don't care if someone is trying to justify music but realities should be said straight away.

All songs are Haram (clearly). All music used for songs is Haram. 

As of military music, it is halal. Classical music if away from Al-Ghina like the 'Rag' of old times which was purely meant to discover the art is Halal. (This example of Rag comes from my opinion). Ghazals can be allowed. Because Ghazal is different from Song in music industry. 

 

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On 10/14/2020 at 11:46 PM, Guest Smma said:

Salam

I know that Islam forbids music which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires

I wanted to know what it says about music that has none of these things. Also i have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true? 

If possible, also include hadith/w source with your answer.

Jazakallah khair

An easy and better explanation

 

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On 10/15/2020 at 5:46 AM, Guest Smma said:

Salam

I know that Islam forbids music which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires

I wanted to know what it says about music that has none of these things. Also i have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true? 

If possible, also include hadith/w source with your answer.

Jazakallah khair

According to Al-Sayyid Sadiq Hussayni Shirazi: All songs and music is haram as long as a song is commonly considered a song and music is commonly considered music. This is the most strict a marja' can get (as far as I am concerned) when it comes to music and songs.

Q: Is the prohibition of singing due to the content or style? If the content of singing is decent and honourable and promotes religious values, what would be the ruling?
A: If it is considered singing by common norms (‘orf), it is not permissible categorically, irrespective of the content.

Page 667-668, http://www.english.shirazi.ir/islamic-laws/

Music is haram and so too is singing. It makes no difference to the prohibition of music as to whether it is generated by musical instruments such as violin, or by other means such as computers and suchlike; this is because by common norms (‘orf) both are considered to be music.


Q: What is the criterion in identifying the prohibited music and the musical tunes used?
A: Anything that is said to be music is absolutely haram

 

According to Al-Sayyid As-Sistani: Music and songs that are suitable for entertainment and amusement gatherings (whether haram, halal or with any other context) are forbidden. Playing an instrument that is made to be beaten (such as a drum, tambourine, etc) is forbidden.

Ruling 2090. Singing (ghinā) is unlawful. The meaning of ‘singing’ here is void (bāṭil) speech that is articulated in a tune appropriate to gatherings of entertainment and amusement. Similarly, it is not permitted to recite the Qur’an, supplications (duʿāʾs), and the like in such a tune. And based on obligatory precaution, other forms of speech, apart from the ones already mentioned, must also not be articulated in such a tune. Similarly, listening to singing is unlawful, and taking a fee for singing is also unlawful and the fee does not become the property of the person who took it. Learning and teaching to sing is also not permitted. Music, i.e. playing instruments that are especially designed for music, is also unlawful if it is in a way that is appropriate to gatherings of entertainment and amusement [and listening to such music is unlawful as well]; other than that, it is not unlawful. Taking a fee for playing unlawful music is unlawful and the fee taken does not become the property of the person who took it. Teaching and learning it is also unlawful. https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2298/

 

According to Imam Khamenei: Music and songs that are both lahwi (deviates one from Allah and the right path) and suitable for entertainment and amusement gatherings are forbidden.

 

Q1121. What are the criteria by which one can distinguish ḥalāl from ḥarām music? Is classical music ḥalāl?
A: Any music which is lahwī and deviating people the way of Allah which is suitable for gatherings of merry making is ḥarām whether it is classic or not. To distinguish the subject of a ruling depends on the view of the mukallaf as a part of common people. There is no objection to other kinds of music in itself.

 

Q1126. How do you define ghinā’? Is it just the human voice or does it cover the sound of musical instruments?
A: Ghinā’ is the voice of the human being, which is produced in a rise and fall pattern and suitable for the gatherings of lahw and sin. It is ḥarām to engage in this type of singing; as well as to listen to it.

 

Q1123. What is meant by lahwī music? And how best can one recognize it?
A: Lahwī and deviating music is that which due to its characteristics keeps human beings away from Allah, the sublime, and away from moral merits and drives them towards sinful acts and carelessness. Its recognition rests with the common people.

Music and Ghina, https://www.leader.ir/en/book/32/Practical-Laws-of-Islam

 

According to Sheikh Wahid Khurasani: If a song is commonly regarded as a song, it is forbidden. Guitars, harps, violins and similar instruments are forbidden.

899. Prayer in a place where a harp or similar instruments are being played, is not invalid, however, it is forbidden to listen to them. It is similarly forbidden to be present in such a gathering except for the purpose of impeding their use.

Page 194, http://wahidkhorasani.com/data/books/islamic laws.pdf

 

930. ...turning the vocal cord of the throat in such a manner that the voice produced from the throat is deemed ghinÁ, the type of singing that is common in gatherings of vanity (lahw).

Page 200, http://wahidkhorasani.com/data/books/islamic laws.pdf

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2 hours ago, awaisali14 said:

An easy and better explanation

 

Not sure if this is accurate though, it makes it seem like nasheeds, maher zain songs, qawwalis are halal because they’re not lahw.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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27 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Not sure if this is accurate though, it makes it seem like nasheeds, maher zain songs, qawwalis are halal because they’re not lahw.

According to Al-Sayyid As-Sistani, that doesn't necessarily rule them as halal. Even quran recitations have the possibility to be forbidden.

Ruling 2090. Singing (ghinā) is unlawful. The meaning of ‘singing’ here is void (bāṭil) speech that is articulated in a tune appropriate to gatherings of entertainment and amusement. Similarly, it is not permitted to recite the Qur’an, supplications (duʿāʾs), and the like in such a tune. And based on obligatory precaution, other forms of speech, apart from the ones already mentioned, must also not be articulated in such a tune. Similarly, listening to singing is unlawful, and taking a fee for singing is also unlawful and the fee does not become the property of the person who took it. Learning and teaching to sing is also not permitted. Music, i.e. playing instruments that are especially designed for music, is also unlawful if it is in a way that is appropriate to gatherings of entertainment and amusement [and listening to such music is unlawful as well]; other than that, it is not unlawful. Taking a fee for playing unlawful music is unlawful and the fee taken does not become the property of the person who took it. Teaching and learning it is also unlawful. https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2298/

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If you refer to the various narrations on music then you will see, as @Sabrejet has mentioned, that it is not only the content (lyrics) or use (halal or haram entertainment gatherings) that make music impermissible, but even the use of most instruments, the melody and the singing voices are in themselves condemned. 

As correctly mentioned even the recitation of the Qur'an can be impermissible if done in a singing manner.

The safest way is to therefore avoid all music. 

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/fifteenth-greater-sin-music

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-2-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/sixteenth-greater-sin-singing

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:16 AM, Guest Smma said:

Salam

I know that Islam forbids music which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires

 

Please......

know that Islam forbids Everything which contains:

1) swears

2) that targets a person(s)

3) contains lies

4) has explicit language and can induce bad desires.

On 10/15/2020 at 12:16 AM, Guest Smma said:

have seen some people claim that instruments such guitar, flute, drums are also a sin to hear to, is this true?

Investigate yourself.

On 10/15/2020 at 12:16 AM, Guest Smma said:

possible, also include hadith/w source with your answer

Read Quran. Nowhere mentioned that music is haram.

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2 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Read Quran. Nowhere mentioned that music is haram.

As per the tafaseer, this is actually referred to in the Qur'an, for example by the term lahw

You can refer to the multiple narrations of the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) in the links from my previous post. 

Edited by Mahdavist
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3 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Read Quran. Nowhere mentioned that music is haram.

وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنِ اللَّغْوِ مُعْرِضُونَ

[The believers are] those who avoid vain/idle/ill talk [23:3]

Vain talk, according to the A'immah, includes singing. Hence, the Quran condemns singing.

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4 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

 

Vain talk, according to the A'immah, includes singing. Hence, the Quran condemns singing.

Isn’t the Quran above hadith? If singing and Music were “vain talk” surely Allah would have said it in direct language. Why would Allah be vague about something Haram? 
 

Remember that hadiths are not always preserved correctly or accurate, because only the Quran is perfect. The point of hadith is to supplement what the Quran already says is Haram or Halal. If the Quran is silent and not specific on music being Haram (which is a debated issue) then we can’t for certain say that music and singing is Haram even if it is in hadith. Because hadiths can be tampered with. The Quran can’t be. 

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5 hours ago, Caroling said:

Isn’t the Quran above hadith? If singing and Music were “vain talk” surely Allah would have said it in direct language. Why would Allah be vague about something Haram? 
 

Remember that hadiths are not always preserved correctly or accurate, because only the Quran is perfect. The point of hadith is to supplement what the Quran already says is Haram or Halal. If the Quran is silent and not specific on music being Haram (which is a debated issue) then we can’t for certain say that music and singing is Haram even if it is in hadith. Because hadiths can be tampered with. The Quran can’t be. 

The Quran usually speaks in a general way. Vain talk refers to many things one of which is singing according to authentic hadith. The Quran doesn't mention the specifics of how to pray, it briefly explains how to perform wudhu and it is not very specific with many other topics hence the necessity of hadith to elaborate or, as you said, supplement the verses within the Quran.

Another example from Quran: “And (remember) when He spread a cover of drowsi­ness over you as a security from Him (and thus you slept peacefully). And He sent down upon you water from heaven to purify you with it, to take away from you the unclean (insinuation) of the Shaytan, to strengthen your hearts and to plant you feet firmly with it.” [8:11]

This verse vaguely implies the fact that semen is one of the 'ayn najasah. But we cannot be certain so we refer to ahadith. Sunnis argue that semen is pure according to their hadith. Shias argue that semen is one of the 'ayn najasah according to their hadith. Hence hadith are necessary to correctly interpret the verses in the Quran. According to hadith al-thaqalayn, the Prophet Muhammad left with us two things so that we may follow the correct path: the Quran and the Ahl ul-Bait. Hence, following both are necessary to be on the correct path.

Do you disagree that singing is a form of vain/ill talk? I personally feel that it is.

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The Quran usually speaks in a general way.

Entirely wrong, please think twice before making such statement about Quran.

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

And (remember) when He spread a cover of drowsi­ness over you as a security from Him (and thus you slept peacefully). And He sent down upon you water from heaven to purify you with it, to take away from you the unclean (insinuation) of the Shaytan, to strengthen your hearts and to plant you feet firmly with it.” [8:11]

This verse vaguely implies the fact that semen is one of the 'ayn najasah.

8:9. Remember when you asked for help from your Rabb and He answered 
you, “Indeed I will reinforce you with a thousand angels in succession.”
10. Allah did this only as good tidings and so your hearts would be assured 
by it... Help and victory is only from Allah... Indeed, Allah is the Aziz, the 
Hakim.
11. Remember when He formed a state of tranquility and security from 
Him, and sent down water from the sky  to purify you  and to rid you of the filth of Satan  and to strengthen the observation of the Truth in your consciousness and secure your feet.

Still you think filth of satan means semen ?

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Do you disagree that singing is a form of vain/ill talk?

Yes totally disagree.

Edited by Shahrukh K
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I do not wish to start an argument however I will respond just this once.

12 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Entirely wrong, please think twice before making such statement about Quran.

What is wrong with my statement? When I say it speaks in a general way, I mean it doesn't go into extensive detail which I do not see how that conflicts with the verses in the Quran.

 

16 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Still you think filth of satan means semen ?

The Muslim army went to sleep, then Allah sent rain down upon them to 'purify them', take away the unclean of the Shaytan, strengthen the hearts and to plant the feet of the Muslims firmly. Where did I say that the unclean of the Shaytan was semen? Allah sent rain down to purify the Muslims after they slept, what would they need purification of after sleeping other than semen? I would also like to say that wet dreams usually occur when one is sexually aroused whilst asleep. This sexual arousal can actually come from the Shaytan. Anyways this argument was presented by a Shia scholar (Al-Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi, https://www.al-islam.org/ritual-and-spiritual-purity-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/i-najasat-taharat).

 

27 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Yes totally disagree.

Are you a shia? If so, do you know how much the A'immah have condemned singing and music in hadith? How dare you say such a thing. 

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) and later Imam Riďa ((عليه السلام).), have both explained the term “vain words” as follows: “Vain words imply music and singing and the true worshipers of Allah refrain from these.” Al-Kafi

 

Imām Mūsā al-Kāẓim (A) was once walking down a street when he passed by a house where a party was going on. The sound of music and dancing could be heard on the street, and one could visualize the atmosphere inside. The wine flowed freely and dancers entertained the gathering. A maid stepped out of the house to throw the garbage.

The Imām asked her, "Is the owner of this house a free man or a slave?"

"My master is a free man! He owns this house", she replied, surprised at the question.
"He is certainly free! Had he been a slave, he would not have disobeyed his Master, the Creator of the universe so boldly, and organized such a sinful gathering", said the Imām.
This conversation delayed the maid, so when she went back into the house, her master asked her why she had taken so long. She related her conversation with the Imām to him. The words, "Had he been a slave he would have respected his Master’s wishes" had such a deep impact on him that he ran out onto the street, not even stopping to put his shoes on, to find out who had said such wise words. He caught up with the Imām at the end of the street, and realised that it was Imām Mūsā al-Kāẓim (A). He felt so ashamed of his actions that he apologised for his sins, promising not to organise or attend such parties again. 

 

Narration of Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) as quoted by Amash. Muhammad Ibn Muslim relates that Imam Muhammad al-Baqir ((عليه السلام).) said, “Singing is that sin which has been promised a penalty of fire (Hell) by Allah.”

 

I will not discuss this topic any further.

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The Qur'an itself repeatedly instructs us to obey the messenger, to refer to him ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), to refer to those who are rooted in knowledge etc,  so this misconception that 'if it's haram it would be in the Qur'an' is not only baseless , it is also self contradictory. 

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5 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

I do not wish to start an argument however I will respond just this once

Muhammad bhai, i am also not interested to start an argument. I am sharing only my point of view.

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

When I say it speaks in a general way, I mean it doesn't go into extensive detail

Quran does not speak in general way, it does go into extensive detail. 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Allah sent rain down to purify the Muslims after they slept, what would they need purification of after sleeping other than semen?

Allah is not purifying muslims (or you) from semen.....

8:11. Remember when He formed a state of tranquility and security from 
Him, and sent down water from the sky (water symbolizes knowledge, the 
state of certainty and the actualization of Allah’s will) to purify you (from egobased emotions) and to rid you of the filth of Satan (fear and doubt) and to 
strengthen the observation of the Truth in your consciousness and secure 
your feet (with this knowledge). (This verse is an example of the 
symbolic/allegoric expression in the Quran. For, ‘rain’, when taken literally, 
cannot secure one’s feet or cleanse one from satanic impulses. This is an example 
of how such verses should be construed and evaluated.)

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Anyways this argument was presented by a Shia scholar (Al-Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi,

I do not know who is he ?

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Are you a shia? 

I do not bother whether i am shia or not. I am striving to realize La ilaha illa Allah.

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) and later Imam Riďa ((عليه السلام).),

I believe in Imams((عليه السلام).) but i do not believe Al kafi. 

 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

will not discuss this topic any further.

Ok

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On 12/27/2020 at 10:29 PM, Mahdavist said:

Which books of hadith do you refer to then for the narrations of the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام)?

There is one Hadith.......(copied from shiachat)
From Abdullah ibn Maimoon, from Al Sadiq (عليه السلام), from his father and forefathers,"The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says:

Everyone who travels the path in order to acquire knowledge, Allah — The Exalted — places them on a path which leads to paradise."

Who is saying here :Abdullah ibn maimoon to whom: author of the book  Alkafi ?

By the way Alkafi is not authored by any Imam.
why do I believe that it is said by Imam Al Sadiq (عليه السلام).

If someone thinks that Qur'an speaks in a general way or provides only headlines and Hadith written in Alkafi explains the topic. Like vain talks is prohibited and what is vain talk explained in Alkafi.
 I do not agree with this. Qur'an is a fully detailed book.

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22 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

I do not agree with this. Qur'an is a fully detailed book.

This is where we respectfully disagree. This is similar to the erroneous view "hasbuna kitabullah". The Quran is detailed, no doubt, but it can't be fully understood without a divinely appointed guide.

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49 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

This is where we respectfully disagree. 

Salaam brother,

See this hadith (it is shia but mentions many Sunni accepted hadiths within):

Quote

H 757, Ch. 64, h 1
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus and Ali ibn Muhammad from Sahl ibn Ziyad, abu Sa‘id from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from ibn Muskan from abu Basir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) about the following words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. "Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine authority). . . ." (4:59) The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "This was sent from heavens about Ali ibn abu talib al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).)." I then said, "People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High?’" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "Say to them, ‘The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak‘ats) for them three nor four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk senven times around the Ka‘ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The verse about obedience came "Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine authority). . . ." (4:59) It came to declare that Ali, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) were the leaders who possessed Divine authority. The Messenger of Allah then said about Ali ((عليه السلام).), "On whoever I have Divine Authority, then Ali ((عليه السلام).) has Divine Authority over him also." He also has said, "I enjoin you to follow the book of Allah and my family because have prayed to Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High not to separate these two from each other until He will make them arrive al-Kawthar (at the pool of Paradise) to meet me. He has granted my prayer as such." The Holy Prophet (s.a.) has said, "Do not try to teach them (The Imam ((عليه السلام).) because they are far more knowledgeable than you." The Holy Prophet (s.a.) has said, " The Imam ((عليه السلام).) will never take you out of the gate of guidance and they never make you enter the gate of misguidance." Had the Messenger of Allah remained silent and would not explain anything about his Ahl al-Bayt (family) the family of so and so would have advanced their claim for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority). However, Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed it in His book to confirm the explanantions of His Prophet about Ahl al-Bayt (in the following verse), "People of the house, God wants to remove all kinds of uncleanliness from you and to purify you thoroughly." (33:33) Ali, Fatima, al-Hassan and al-Hussain ((عليه السلام).) were there and the Holy Prophet (s.a.) made them to enter under al-Kisa’ (the Cloak) in the house of ’Umm salama and then said, "O Lord, every prophet has a family and a gravity, and these are my family and gravity." ’Umm Salama at this point said, "Am I not of your family?" The Holy Prophet (s.a.) said, "You are in goodness but these are my family and my gravity." When the Messenger of Allah passed away Ali ((عليه السلام).) had the utmost priority and guardianship of the people all because of what the Messenger of 
Allah had preached about him. It was because of raising him up for the people and holding his hand in his hand. When Ali ((عليه السلام).) (was about to) passed away he could not (and would not) enter Muhammad ibn Ali or al-Abbas ibn Ali or anyone of his other sons in the position of Imamat. Otherwise, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) would have said, "Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed about us just as He has done so about you, and He has commanded people to obey us just as He has commanded people to obey you. The Messenger of Allah has  preached to people about us just as he has done so about you. Allah has removed al-Rijs uncleanliness from us just as He has done so to you. When Ali ((عليه السلام).) left this world, al-Hassan had the utmost priority for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) because he was the eldest. When was about to die he could not, and would not, enter his sons in the position of Imamat. It is because ;Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, says, ". . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of God, than the believers and the emigrants. . ." (33:6) He then places Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) in his sons. If so, al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) would have said, "Allah has commanded people to obey me just as He has commanded people to obey you and to obey your father. The Messenger of Allah has preached to people about me just as he has preached to people about you and your father. Allah has removed al-Rijs (unleanliness) from me just as He has removed from you and your father. When the Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) was in full force with al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) there was no one in his family to who could claim against him as he could calim against his brother and father, had they wanted to diver it from him and they would not do so. After them it found its place with al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) and the interpretation of this verse continued, ". . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of God, than the believers and the emigrants. . . ." (33:6) After al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) found its place with Ali ibn al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).). After Ali ibn al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) it (Leadership with Divine Authority) found its place with Muhammad ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).)." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "Al-Rijs means doubts, I swear by Allah that we never doubt in our Lord." 
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid and al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya ibn ‘Imran al-Halabi from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr and ‘Imran ibn Ali al-Halabi from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) a similar hadith.

If Quran explained the details all this: prayer rakats, zakat percentage etc. the quran would go up to the sky and down. Instead Quran says Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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Let me just clarify a few points.

On 12/27/2020 at 10:27 PM, Shahrukh K said:

I believe in Imams((عليه السلام).) but i do not believe Al kafi. 

Hadith regarding music and singing is not just found in Al-Kafi.

A hadith found in Wasail ash-Shia (as well as al-Kafi) which is said to be authentic is: Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).) said: "Music is among the things for which Allah has promised the Fire (of Hell)." Then he recited [31:6] of the Qur'an.

This hadith implies lahw includes music.

1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

If someone thinks that Qur'an speaks in a general way or provides only headlines and Hadith written in Alkafi explains the topic.
 I do not agree with this. Qur'an is a fully detailed book.

That is not what I meant. There are topics in the Qur'an which go into detail such as with the animals permitted for consumption (e.g. animals who die on their own accord is forbidden for consumption), describing details of the prayer times, providing the outline of how to perform wudhu, describes the attributes of the believers and what the believers must or must not do, mentions and explains different sins (including major sins) and their severity, etc. It is also a primary source for fiqh. However it does not go into full details regarding fiqh (this is what Allah intended) which is one of the primary reasons why, as I said previously, that, according to hadith al-thaqalayn, the Prophet said that you must refer to both Qur'an and the Ahl ul-Bait. The Quran also says that you must refer to the Prophet Muhammad and those who are rooted in knowledge (which are the A'immah). Hence, the Prophet Muhammad and ahl ul-bait also are primary sources of fiqh. If you reject this (I'm not saying that you do), then your knowledge of fiqh is incomplete because you require the divinely appointed guides in order to be on the right path. If you truly believe the Quran goes into full detail regarding fiqh (even though the Quran orders the believers multiple times to refer to the Prophet and those rooted in knowledge) please give references to the Quran and present a valid argument.

Also, let me clarify, when I said the Quran usually speaks in a general way, I was referring to the laws regarding fiqh within the Qur'an and I meant it in the sense that the Quran does not go into full detail but goes into the general details. I was not referring to aqa'id, akhlaq, etc, nor did I mean that Allah simply entrusted the Prophet and Ahl ul-Bait to do most of the work nor did I intend to disrespect or make the words of the Quran to appear less important.

I would like to ask why you reject Al-Kafi? I assume you are not a mujtahid so what makes you believe that you have the capability of determining the authenticity of ahadith? Not all hadith are authentic. Some are unauthentic which is why we have mujtahids.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

However it does not go into full details regarding fiqh (this is what Allah intended) which is one of the primary reasons why, as I said previously, that, according to hadith al-thaqalayn, the Prophet said that you must refer to both Qur'an and the Ahl ul-Bait. The Quran also says that you must refer to the Prophet Muhammad and those who are rooted in knowledge (which are the A'immah). Hence, the Prophet Muhammad and ahl ul-bait also are primary sources of fiqh.

That means Qur'an is incomplete without Alkafi and other books of Hadith. To know the complete meaning of vain talks we must refer to books of Hadith. Otherwise how do we know that vain talks is music.

 

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