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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Khums Dilemma

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On 10/12/2020 at 8:15 PM, Labbayka said:

I’ve noticed that most billionaires aren’t really religious is there any reason for this? Maybe the mroe rich you become the more Machiavellian and thus you have to lose religious morals?

There are some Khums b/m/illionaires out there who wear very simple/broken clothing on the outside yet there's evidence of hoarding given the very poor conditions of the people whom Khums is suppose to go to. :) They also don't give any statements of how they spend Khums.

There are also Shi'a Caviar and Oil b/m/illionaires out there who again wear very simple/broken clothing and spend all this money on other things rather than poor people who are dying on the streets.

Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

Edited by Mahdavist
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11 hours ago, El Cid said:

There are some Khums b/m/illionaires out there who wear very simple/broken clothing on the outside yet there's evidence of hoarding given the very poor conditions of the people whom Khums is suppose to go to. :) They also don't give any statements of how they spend Khums.

 

 Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

This is quite an illogical statement, with due respect. The presence of poor people automatically means that people are hoarding khums? The sad reality is that many people simply don't pay the khums, either due to ignorance or due to weak excuses. 

There are several charitable institutions that have the permission to collect khums and are doing a lot of good work with it. If people actually paid the khums instead of looking for excuses not to, then these institutions will hopefully be able to do more than what they already do. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

This is quite an illogical statement, with due respect. The presence of poor people automatically means that people are hoarding khums? The sad reality is that many people simply don't pay the khums, either due to ignorance or due to weak excuses. 

No, it isn't illogical. I'm not saying that the collection of Khums indicates that there will be no people dying in the streets ever. That's an illogical statement as there will always be some level of poverty within a nation or society. But Khums is incredibly suspicious. All these Shi'a rockstars are basically millionaires with a lot of wealth entrusted to them in the form of Khums. There is no accountability, no balance sheet, no nothing about what they do with this wealth. It's just a "Trust us brother" thing going on where we trust their "judgement". If their judgement is to use this money to support XYZ instead of helping to eliminate poverty. Then what really good is all that money collected for the public financial health in the first place. Obviously it's either being misused or it's being hoarded. 

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

 

There are several charitable institutions that have the permission to collect khums and are doing a lot of good work with it. 

That's a blatant lie. Like I said there's no accountability. You don't know what's going on with all that money. You just associate goodness automatically because you take their word as an absolute. For all I know, all this money is going to war funding because that's the "better judgement". 

Forgive me for being a skeptic but as a person living in the end of times with ahadith specifically saying there will be more dishonest people than honest people in this era. I can't really just take the "It's all good bro" word of anyone, especially those I do not know personally. You can benefit from knowledge of someone you don't know personally if they provide proof of their knowledge being the correct one, yes. You can trust the Masoom(Peace be upon them) 100% without knowing them personally. There are hadith mentioning that suspicion is haram but those hadith pertain to your loved ones(family and friends) people you know personally. So I really can't just buy into this pyramid scheme honestly.

Anyway, this discussion is just going to drag into an endless cycle of apologist lecture and criticism of said lecture. It's as worthless as that Khums being collected.

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

All these Shi'a rockstars are basically millionaires with a lot of wealth entrusted to them in the form of Khums.

Not sure which rockstars or millionaires you are referring to. Are you sure you're not mixing different things up? 

2 hours ago, El Cid said:

That's a blatant lie. Like I said there's no accountability. You don't know what's going on with all that money. You just associate goodness automatically because you take their word as an absolute. For all I know, all this money is going to war funding because that's the "better judgement"

Well actually it isn't, because those of us who have contributed or worked with such organizations can clearly see the work they are doing and how the money is being used. Some of them are in my signature, it would be worth taking the time to look into their activities.

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@El Cid The burden of proof lies on you since you make the claim that they "hoard" the Khums money. Could you maybe provide us with such proof? Because otherwise, and I'm sorry to say it that way, it sounds like you either just played along with some rumors or came up with it yourself.  

Edited by Berber-Shia
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Guest Molana Laddan

I swear (although I mostly don’t swear) sometimes I feel like some of the members here are so hate filled that they can even shame a hateful Zio. 
 

As far as Khums, I’ve personally been involved with groups building houses, schools, orphanages, and sending hundreds of kids to universities through Khums money. The Sadaat portion of Khums can be spent by the person himself. The Imam portion of Khums can also be utilized on incremental projects with the permission of the Marja. Have personally done it, so when I read your comments, I just shake my head and say Astaghfar for bunch of you hateful souls. 
 

As far as righteous millionaires (I don’t know if they are billionaires yet, but InshAllah one day they would be), I’ve known at least three, who each made donations of over $250k on a phone call, two in making two of the masajid loan free, one in donating to an education project. None of them wanted their donation to be tagged as their Khums dues (even though the three organizations have the Khums ijaza and could get the receipt out) and just called it the gift to their Imam. They said they would pay their Khums obligation from their other savings when their Khums date would click in. 
 

So yes, the right use of Khums is there for all to see,  granted there could be misappropriations as well but if they happen, the one who is paying the Khums is responsible for the accounting of it. It mostly happens because those who pay Khums forget the accountability part. The rest of non-Khums paying crowd just cheer ‘corruption-corruption’ on the sidelines.

The right sort of rich people are there as well.
 

All you need to do is squeeze the hate juice out of your sudoor, be the active (limbs moving), part of the projects and you would know that most of the Khums goes to the deserving. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Molana Laddan said:

So yes, the right use of Khums is there for all to see, granted there could be misappropriations as well but if they happen, the one who is paying the Khums is responsible for the accounting of it. It mostly happens because those who pay Khums forget the accountability part. The rest of non-Khums paying crowd just cheer ‘corruption-corruption’ on the sidelines.

Which income bracket contributes most of the Khums, to your knowledge? If wealthy people are contributing, are they involved in siphoning off khums?

Quote

The right sort ... the deserving

A lot of Western ‘charities’ have very elastic definitions of the “right, deserving” people. Why would some Islamic charities be different?

Accountability matters. Corruption is ubiquitous. There will always be misappropriation(s). Corruption shouldn’t be trivialised or dismissed.

Edited by Northwest
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5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Not sure which rockstars or millionaires you are referring to. Are you sure you're not mixing different things up? 

Marja, ofcourse. I didn't want to say the "M-word" because I know they are Demigods to certain people and I wouldn't want to rile up the natives who will defend any wrong-doing till they choke on their own blood.

5 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Not sure which rockstars or millionaires you are referring to. Are you sure you're not mixing different things up? 

Well actually it isn't, because those of us who have contributed or worked with such organizations can clearly see the work they are doing and how the money is being used. Some of them are in my signature, it would be worth taking the time to look into their activities.

 

3 hours ago, Guest Molana Laddan said:

 

As far as Khums, I’ve personally been involved with groups building houses, schools, orphanages, and sending hundreds of kids to universities through Khums money. The Sadaat portion of Khums can be spent by the person himself. The Imam portion of Khums can also be utilized on incremental projects with the permission of the Marja. Have personally done it, so when I read your comments, I just shake my head and say Astaghfar for bunch of you hateful souls. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Berber-Shia said:

@El Cid The burden of proof lies on you since you make the claim that they "hoard" the Khums money. Could you maybe provide us with such proof? Because otherwise, and I'm sorry to say it that way, it sounds like you either just played along with some rumors or came up with it yourself.  

For all we know that's some pompous show going on. I can't prove that they are hoarding or spending Khums unjustly but my brothers and sisters. You can't prove either that they are spending khums justly because there is no accountability. They don't give you any balance sheet of their yearly expenses and where all that money went to. Those charitable organizations using Khums money could be only using 25% of the total millions people giving in Khums for helping in all those humantarian missions while 75% could be going to support militia groups all around the world. Why? Because one of the conditions of Khums is these Marja can spend it any way they see fit which may or may not include helping to eliminate poverty. It's this "trust us brother" thing with no accountability that concerns me. And sure, charitable organizations I think around the world don't give accountability balance sheets etc to people but in this case it should be. Why? Save the Planet charity can't shake me down for my money and tell me if I don't pay it, I'm going to be stopped at the Khums gate on the day of judgement for 50,000 years. It's a choice. Here it's a compulsion by those friendly Persians living thousands of miles away. So we demand accountability rather than your good word. Also this people don't give as much as khums as they'd like could just be some propaganda that they use to belittle the donations they get so we just assume they are working under minimum capacity in funds.

There's this desperation and urgency to be the "Middlemen" between you and God(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by non Masoomeen where you giving money directly to the poor and handicapped is wrong because you didn't do it by entrusting them with this money. Sounds awfully Catholic to me. 

Our religion says question everything. You people say Question everything but don't question these people or stuff we are sensitive about. That's not Islam. That's called being a sheep to someone. 

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Firstly I have split the khums related discussions into a new topic to prevent going off topic in the other thread.

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Marja, ofcourse. I didn't want to say the "M-word" because I know they are Demigods to certain people and I wouldn't want to rile up the natives who will defend any wrong-doing till they choke on their own blood.

Ok thanks for clarifying. Not sure why there's this assumption that they're receiving millions, and specifically that they're keeping it for themselves. If you visit these people most of them seem to have a pretty humble lifestyle so there doesn't seem to be any indication that they're keeping large sums of money for themselves. 

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

You can't prove either that they are spending khums justly because there is no accountability. They don't give you any balance sheet of their yearly expenses and where all that money went to

I wouldn't be so sure of this. I have witnessed receipts being issued to people who have brought money directly to the office of a marja, and I'm quite sure one they would show their accounting to those who requested it. 

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Those charitable organizations using Khums money could be only using 25% of the total millions people giving in Khums for helping in all those humantarian missions while 75% could be going to support militia groups all around the world.

I can't speak for every organization but the ones I am familiar with are recognized charities in their countries and obviously are expected to have the same standards of accountability as anyone else. 

Their activities are also well documented and the amount of money required for them is often also quite clearly shown.

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Why? Because one of the conditions of Khums is these Marja can spend it any way they see fit which may or may not include helping to eliminate poverty. It's this "trust us brother" thing with no accountability that concerns me.

I think you're confusing different things here. The charitable organizations are not necessarily affiliated with a specific marja. Rather, one or many maraji recognize that the activities of a group or organization are eligible for the use of khums and therefore issue a permission to collect khums to these organizations. 

The money in this case never passes the hands of the marja, unless they are allocating money they have collected, rather the contributor directly sends it to any of the organizations that are eligible.

These organizations, or at least the ones that I have had the opportunity to interact with such as Noor Orphans Fund, Lady Fatemah Trust and Zahra Trust to name a few, describe which activities they are doing and you have the possibility to choose which project you want to contribute towards. 

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Also this people don't give as much as khums as they'd like could just be some propaganda that they use to belittle the donations they get so we just assume they are working under minimum capacity in funds.

This isn't a claim of the organizations. It is my own unfortunate observation based on the interaction I have had with various shia communities. 

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

There's this desperation and urgency to be the "Middlemen" between you and God(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by non Masoomeen where you giving money directly to the poor and handicapped is wrong because you didn't do it by entrusting them with this money.

Nobody said it was wrong. Perhaps you simply haven't understood the concept. 

 

2 hours ago, El Cid said:

Our religion says question everything. You people say Question everything but don't question these people or stuff we are sensitive about. That's not Islam. That's called being a sheep to someone

Certainly, one should question and clarify. I don't think the issue here are the questions. Rather it seems that there are some misconceptions flying around. Hopefully they have been clarified. 

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13 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Firstly I have split the khums related discussions into a new topic to prevent going off topic in the other thread.

Salam. No worries lol You can change the title to "The Khums Dilemma" so it sounds more like something I'd title.

14 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

 

Ok thanks for clarifying. Not sure why there's this assumption that they're receiving millions, and specifically that they're keeping it for themselves. If you visit these people most of them seem to have a pretty humble lifestyle so there doesn't seem to be any indication that they're keeping large sums of money for themselves. 

My pleasure. There is this assumption that they are receiving millions when paying Khums is incumbent on the Shi'a populace which amounts to 340 million people world-wide with many in western countries. A humble lifestyle does not mean that someone is humble in terms of finances. The issue is either they are keeping it for themselves or they are giving it to non humanatarian things like giving it to militia groups instead of the trust organizations you named below.

16 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I wouldn't be so sure of this. I have witnessed receipts being issued to people who have brought money directly to the office of a marja, and I'm quite sure one they would show their accounting to those who requested it. 

 

Those receipts are given to people as a show of proof that the person gave zakat/khums. It's not a balance sheet which properly details how that money is used. It's just a token given to you for your own assurity that you gave the money. I think it's also linked to hadith in some way where each person has a show of proof that they did the obligation. 

17 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

 

I can't speak for every organization but the ones I am familiar with are recognized charities in their countries and obviously are expected to have the same standards of accountability as anyone else. 

Their activities are also well documented and the amount of money required for them is often also quite clearly shown.

 

There isn't a proper accountability for any of the money. They can show you what the activities are when we're talking about charity organizations who are using khums. But like I said the money given to actual charities using that Khums money could be a small fraction of the total khums collected whilst other is being used for non humantarian efforts because of this point that you brought up yourself:

"Rather, one or many maraji recognize that the activities of a group or organization are eligible for the use of khums and therefore issue a permission to collect khums to these organizations"

This is where the problem lies brother because maraji have full discretion on deciding where the money goes to. Whether it goes to the trust funds you mentioned above or it goes to militia. This is why we don't know if 90% is going to the latter or 90% is going to the former. The organization may be collecting khums but they are doing it with the permission of the Marja and they can demand Khums to be reallocated anywhere because it's their discretion. Not yours.

21 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

 

Nobody said it was wrong. Perhaps you simply haven't understood the concept. 

I'm not saying it's wrong either. But there must be accountability. The guy above who posted under Ladden said misappropriation is there and can happen. In my eyes if even one dirham of someone's hard earned halal income was spent injustly then it's an injustice to humanity itself. We criticize Usman for misappropriating the trust money of the Ummah yet we're giving these people a free pass.(I know I know, that was of another nature but the principle is the same.) I'm part of two country clubs back home, they are driven solely through donation and a small membership fee. Nothing else. At the end of the year, they send a balance sheet and profit/loss statement of the entire club of every department in a newsletter to people's homes. Why? Because this proves they have nothing to hide and every cent is being used appropriately with responsibility. If millions of Khums is coming in from even 40% of the Shi'a population. Why can't these Marja and Co hire a company like Ernst and Young which is one of the best accounting firms in the world to audit every cent that is coming in from Khums. Make a balance sheet detailing every inch of that money being used for XYZ things. Accounting. Not a charity brochure. And paste these accounting financial statements to a website of their choosing. It'd certainly shut people like me up. Bolster their image of being Sadiq and Ameen and this would in turn make more Khums come in by silencing all the skeptics like me where we now have proper understanding of where the money goes. If they really cared about supporting poverty strucken Syeds, building orphanges, building mosques, sending bright eyed Jimmy to university. Then they would've decades ago. But they don't because they have inner agendas, inner workings, inner motifs to send the money to which may or may not be seen as appropriate to the masses which is why they do not provide this. 

There is no misconception to clarify. There's realism and there's the veil of illusion.

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  • Mahdavist changed the title to The Khums Dilemma
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Regarding Khums. It is a very wrong comparison.

Whether a average person paid or rich person paid. It should be paid. Many average people dont pay khums as well.

Problem with Khums is scholars aren’t the clear ones regarding how this Khums is being paid. No clarity to be honest.

And its sad that around every Shrine you have poor people living and beggars outside.

 

p.s. instead of pointing fingers at rich people, blame scholars incite rich people to gold plate the shrines. Each shrine contains 10 millions of dollars out of gold.

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On 10/13/2020 at 5:18 AM, El Cid said:

There are some Khums b/m/illionaires out there who wear very simple/broken clothing on the outside yet there's evidence of hoarding given the very poor conditions of the people whom Khums is suppose to go to. :) They also don't give any statements of how they spend Khums.

There are also Shi'a Caviar and Oil b/m/illionaires out there who again wear very simple/broken clothing and spend all this money on other things rather than poor people who are dying on the streets.

Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

An accounting system for Khum, where all receivables and expenses are accounted for.  And the person that has the authority to collect Khums are accounted for any  dubious activities.

The accounting system is to build trust and to verify where the money goes. No hidden agendas and no personal interest. 

The people who pay Khum will see where the wealth that belongs to Imam goes.

I believe the accounting system can be setup and that is easy.  Audit system can be established to perform yearly verifications.

Will the Marjas / Religious figures will accept it?  Using innovative technology to increase efficiency, trust and accounting on Khums.

With more open system on Khums, maybe will encourage more people to pay because they know for sure where the wealth go.

Let hear from Marjas on this issue.  Can they agree on the accounting system that can be audited.

 

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3 hours ago, layman said:

An accounting system for Khum, where all receivables and expenses are accounted for.  And the person that has the authority to collect Khums are accounted for any  dubious activities.

The accounting system is to build trust and to verify where the money goes. No hidden agendas and no personal interest. 

The people who pay Khum will see where the wealth that belongs to Imam goes.

I believe the accounting system can be setup and that is easy.  Audit system can be established to perform yearly verifications.

Will the Marjas / Religious figures will accept it?  Using innovative technology to increase efficiency, trust and accounting on Khums.

With more open system on Khums, maybe will encourage more people to pay because they know for sure where the wealth go.

Let hear from Marjas on this issue.  Can they agree on the accounting system that can be audited.

 

They don't want people seeing where the money goes to.

Otherwise they would've done it now decades ago like I explained in my above post. The minimum auditing fee for a very small scale business is 5000$. When you're raking in millions, surely you can afford it.

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On 10/13/2020 at 3:30 PM, El Cid said:

For all we know that's some pompous show going on. I can't prove that they are hoarding or spending Khums unjustly but my brothers and sisters. You can't prove either that they are spending khums justly because there is no accountability. They don't give you any balance sheet of their yearly expenses and where all that money went to. Those charitable organizations using Khums money could be only using 25% of the total millions people giving in Khums for helping in all those humantarian missions while 75% could be going to support militia groups all around the world. Why? Because one of the conditions of Khums is these Marja can spend it any way they see fit which may or may not include helping to eliminate poverty. It's this "trust us brother" thing with no accountability that concerns me. And sure, charitable organizations I think around the world don't give accountability balance sheets etc to people but in this case it should be. Why? Save the Planet charity can't shake me down for my money and tell me if I don't pay it, I'm going to be stopped at the Khums gate on the day of judgement for 50,000 years. It's a choice. Here it's a compulsion by those friendly Persians living thousands of miles away. So we demand accountability rather than your good word. Also this people don't give as much as khums as they'd like could just be some propaganda that they use to belittle the donations they get so we just assume they are working under minimum capacity in funds.

There's this desperation and urgency to be the "Middlemen" between you and God(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by non Masoomeen where you giving money directly to the poor and handicapped is wrong because you didn't do it by entrusting them with this money. Sounds awfully Catholic to me. 

Our religion says question everything. You people say Question everything but don't question these people or stuff we are sensitive about. That's not Islam. That's called being a sheep to someone. 

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Actually what you are doing yourself is not Islam.

Accusing a believer of something without proof is a huge sin, so watch what you say.

Surah AnNur (Surah 24)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ جَاءُوا بِالْإِفْكِ عُصْبَةٌ مِنْكُمْ ۚ لَا تَحْسَبُوهُ شَرًّا لَكُمْ ۖ بَلْ هُوَ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ ۚ لِكُلِّ امْرِئٍ مِنْهُمْ مَا اكْتَسَبَ مِنَ الْإِثْمِ ۚ وَالَّذِي تَوَلَّىٰ كِبْرَهُ مِنْهُمْ لَهُ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ {11}
[Yusufali 24:11] Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves: think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
لَوْلَا إِذْ سَمِعْتُمُوهُ ظَنَّ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَالْمُؤْمِنَاتُ بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ خَيْرًا وَقَالُوا هَٰذَا إِفْكٌ مُبِينٌ {12}
[Yusufali 24:12] Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie"?
لَوْلَا جَاءُوا عَلَيْهِ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ ۚ فَإِذْ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِالشُّهَدَاءِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ {13}
[Yusufali 24:13] Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!

 

It is upon you, the accuser of indecency, to prove this to us, not the other way around (it is "innocent until proven guilty"). And don't think one verse talks about this, you have more verses (e.g. إن بعض الظن إثم) and a huge plethora of Ahadith (e.g. كذب بصرك وخبرك عن أخيك فإن فإن شهد عندك خمسون قسامة وقال لك قولا فكذبهم وصدقه...).

 

Since you have not provided any proof or witnesses, I will follow what these verses say and tell you:

هذا إفك مبين

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17 minutes ago, 7ssein said:

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Actually what you are doing yourself is not Islam.

Accusing a believer of something without proof is a huge sin, so watch what you say.

Surah AnNur (Surah 24)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ جَاءُوا بِالْإِفْكِ عُصْبَةٌ مِنْكُمْ ۚ لَا تَحْسَبُوهُ شَرًّا لَكُمْ ۖ بَلْ هُوَ خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ ۚ لِكُلِّ امْرِئٍ مِنْهُمْ مَا اكْتَسَبَ مِنَ الْإِثْمِ ۚ وَالَّذِي تَوَلَّىٰ كِبْرَهُ مِنْهُمْ لَهُ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ {11}
[Yusufali 24:11] Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves: think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you: to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
لَوْلَا إِذْ سَمِعْتُمُوهُ ظَنَّ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَالْمُؤْمِنَاتُ بِأَنْفُسِهِمْ خَيْرًا وَقَالُوا هَٰذَا إِفْكٌ مُبِينٌ {12}
[Yusufali 24:12] Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie"?
لَوْلَا جَاءُوا عَلَيْهِ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ ۚ فَإِذْ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِالشُّهَدَاءِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ {13}
[Yusufali 24:13] Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!

 

It is upon you, the accuser of indecency, to prove this to us, not the other way around (it is "innocent until proven guilty"). And don't think one verse talks about this, you have more verses (e.g. إن بعض الظن إثم) and a huge plethora of Ahadith (e.g. كذب بصرك وخبرك عن أخيك فإن فإن شهد عندك خمسون قسامة وقال لك قولا فكذبهم وصدقه...).

 

Since you have not provided any proof or witnesses, I will follow what these verses say and tell you:

هذا إفك مبين

The reason there's no accountability and the abundance of poverty outside Shrines is enough proof for me, my dear brother. I'm not Unislamic as I'm demanding and rallying people to show proof of expenditure/income so not even one dirham can be mishandled which came from a person's halal earned income. I do not follow Uthman that I should be okay with injustice happening.

Secondly, we are in the end of times. Our hadith say that in these times, there will be more hoarding of wealth. People will learn and study Islam to be scholars for wealth/prestige. There will be more dishonest people than honest people. There will be more lies than truth. Mosques will have a focus on huge Minarets and decorative Qurans rather than the Ummah.

Those verses you mentioned are a good defense of hiding your actions, nothing else.

There's no solid proof of their Sadiq and Ameen attitributes in handling the wealth of the Ummah. Proof can only arise from the solutions presented.

Wasalam.

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

The reason there's no accountability and the abundance of poverty outside Shrines is enough proof for me, my dear brother. I'm not Unislamic as I'm demanding and rallying people to show proof of expenditure/income so not even one dirham can be mishandled which came from a person's halal earned income. I do not follow Uthman that I should be okay with injustice happening.

Secondly, we are in the end of times. Our hadith say that in these times, there will be more hoarding of wealth. People will learn and study Islam to be scholars for wealth/prestige. There will be more dishonest people than honest people. There will be more lies than truth. Mosques will have a focus on huge Minarets and decorative Qurans rather than the Ummah.

Those verses you mentioned are a good defense of hiding your actions, nothing else.

There's no solid proof of their Sadiq and Ameen attitributes in handling the wealth of the Ummah. Proof can only arise from the solutions presented.

Wasalam.

I still have not seen the witnesses required to accuse someone of something bad.

Having no accountability ≠ not doing good, you're going to have to prove that this means they are mishandling, and that there's no chance they are handling the money properly.

I am not hiding any actions, simply saying we cannot accuse anyone of anything, especially Muslim brothers, without any solid proof. 

As for all the hadiths you mention, please source them. You also do not know what intentions of the students studying to become scholars are, and I would shy away before claiming anyone is studying for wealth or prestige. My centre for these online programs has not paid a single scholar, every scholar who gave speeches for us did it for free.

Once again, we don't need proof somebody is trustworthy, we need proof someone is not. Innocent until proven guilty. Show me proof they are mishandling the money and I'll believe you, don't show me your theories or suspicions as they mean nothing.

هذا إفك مبين

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Money or wealth is very sensitive issue, especially for someone who has the power to control it.

Muslims defeated during Uhud, disunited after  the wafat of  the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also because of wealth...money.

Most politicians all over the world get corrupted because of money.  Even simple people can get corrupted because of money.

Of cause it none of our business to be informed on personal wealth management of other person. 

But when involve wealth that is collected as public trust, it has to be used correctly.   Accountability is a must, unless the public don't care.

We need opinions or explanations from the Marjas on the issues of Khums collection,  flow of money and accountability.

Maybe the system of accountability is there but we don't know about it.

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I think people shouldn't rush to conclusions. Before declaring that there is no accountability, one should perhaps visit the institutions that have received the permission to collect khums and to discuss the matter with them. 

The few groups I have had the pleasure of dealing with were transparent and credible. 

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On 10/19/2020 at 10:45 PM, 7ssein said:

 

As for all the hadiths you mention, please source them. You also do not know what intentions of the students studying to become scholars are, and I would shy away before claiming anyone is studying for wealth or prestige. M

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection -> There you go. If you use google/opera browser. Press "Ctrl+F" together, type "Minaret, Prestige, Dishonesty" for the specifics Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned which would happen during the end of times. The end of times started the day Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام) went into major occulation, everything else the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned is happening all around the world as well. You can't exclude the ones you hail as Demigods and go against the word of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) my dear brother.

 

On 10/19/2020 at 10:45 PM, 7ssein said:

 

Show me proof they are mishandling the money and I'll believe you, don't show me your theories or suspicions as they mean nothing.

That's pretty nonsensical for you to ask. The topic's name is "The Khums Dilemma". You're demanding proof from me on if the money is mishandled. I'm asking proof from you to show me where the money isn't being mishandled. Solid proof. For me proof is financial statements from reliable sources like an auditing firm. For you proof is "Trust us brother". That's no proof at all. Hence the dilemma. :) You are presenting me with a theory of them being trustworthy with no proof whilst demanding proof from me. Quite the paradox. 

I wonder what causes trustworthy and honest people to hide things. I thought only the liars hid things. I can't really go around on the good word of people in an age where the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) warned us all about the wrong-doings which will happen in every part of the world. My apologizes for not believing anything else or not excusing the vain misuse of the Quran in an attempt to shield things. 

 

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20 hours ago, El Cid said:

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection -> There you go. If you use google/opera browser. Press "Ctrl+F" together, type "Minaret, Prestige, Dishonesty" for the specifics Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned which would happen during the end of times. The end of times started the day Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام) went into major occulation, everything else the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned is happening all around the world as well. You can't exclude the ones you hail as Demigods and go against the word of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) my dear brother.

 

That's pretty nonsensical for you to ask. The topic's name is "The Khums Dilemma". You're demanding proof from me on if the money is mishandled. I'm asking proof from you to show me where the money isn't being mishandled. Solid proof. For me proof is financial statements from reliable sources like an auditing firm. For you proof is "Trust us brother". That's no proof at all. Hence the dilemma. :) You are presenting me with a theory of them being trustworthy with no proof whilst demanding proof from me. Quite the paradox. 

I wonder what causes trustworthy and honest people to hide things. I thought only the liars hid things. I can't really go around on the good word of people in an age where the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) warned us all about the wrong-doings which will happen in every part of the world. My apologizes for not believing anything else or not excusing the vain misuse of the Quran in an attempt to shield things. 

 

AsSalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatu

Thank you for the sources. It does say there will be some scholars who work for prestige/wealth, but for all we know these could be regular scholars and not maraje' at all, it doesn't specify, so we shouldn't accuse anyone of anything.

As for me providing proof, again, I follow Islam. I am not making the accusations, you are. In Islam, to accuse someone, you must have proof, but if you don't have, you are required to assume good of people (حسن الظن is an extensive topic with many many proofs, I only mentioned a few above). Therefore, I assume good. What you cannot do is assume bad of people without proof.

Be careful with accusations, for if you falsely accuse people of something, on the day of judgement you may be asked why you defamed these people falsely, quite a hefty sin it is.

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2 hours ago, 7ssein said:

AsSalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatu

Thank you for the sources. It does say there will be some scholars who work for prestige/wealth, but for all we know these could be regular scholars and not maraje' at all, it doesn't specify, so we shouldn't accuse anyone of anything.

As for me providing proof, again, I follow Islam. I am not making the accusations, you are. In Islam, to accuse someone, you must have proof, but if you don't have, you are required to assume good of people (حسن الظن is an extensive topic with many many proofs, I only mentioned a few above). Therefore, I assume good. What you cannot do is assume bad of people without proof.

Be careful with accusations, for if you falsely accuse people of something, on the day of judgement you may be asked why you defamed these people falsely, quite a hefty sin it is.

Walaikum Asalam.

Brother. Let me put it straight to you. The difference between you and I is that I don't hold people to superhuman standards nor my loyalty is conflicted between Prophet(SW) and other people. When you think of these Marjai as "The Right hand of Abbas(AS)" "The sword of Ali(AS)" "The Defenders of Shia Islam and Opposition to Satanic Forces" Then there's going to be a huge degree of bias involved which will keep you from seeing things from a moderate realist perspective. But it's not your fault either, If I believed in such things as well then every word of this topic will look as slanderous to me as it is you where I'd start pulling out verses from Quran, warning of Judgement day, accusing someone of Unislamic behavior. There's a hadith from Abu Huraia who claims he narrated it from Prophet(SW). I don't trust Abu Hurairah but this one doesn't look too suspicious: "Love your beloved moderately, perhaps he becomes hated to you someday. And hate whom you hate moderately, perhaps he becomes your beloved someday."

 

Grade Hasan (Darussalam)    
Reference  : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1997
In-book reference

 : Book 27, Hadith 103

 

 

Though it doesn't sound like it's Unislamic in any way either so it could be a Sahih hadith. Now why am I sharing this? Because You and your elk will violate any tenant of Islam and decency if it means defending those you hold to such a high pedestal that you somewhat have turned their image into being Pseudo-Masoomem. Where's the evidence of this on your part? From your words:

The original Hadith words: “And there will be people who will study religion for other than Allah (i.e., for earning prestige or wealth"

Your innovated words you put to paint a narrative/agenda: "Thank you for the sources. It does say there will be SOME scholars who work for prestige/wealth"

Did you know that adding innovations of your own or miscontruing the words of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams(Peace be upon them) is a grave sin which carries a hefty punishment on the day of Judgement? Why did you do this? Because of the reasons I just told you above. To defend your scholars you misconstructed the words of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by adding a narrative that well it can only be a small minority. The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said there will be people, He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't specify that it will be a large majority or a small minority but to fit your agenda, you chose to add proportions. 

But here Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) does add size: “O Salman, this will happen when honours will be defiled, and sins will be committed, and the evil people will have authority upon good people, and lie will be prevalent" -> It clearly says that evil people will have authority and lie will be more prevalant. What's the opposite of lie? It's truth. The hadith is saying that lies will be more in size than the truth will be. So why shouldn't we hold ordinary people accountable for their actions? Why is it so prepostrous, So slanderous, So controversial to implement an accounting system so public wealth isn't mishandled by anyone. It's basic common logic sense. We're not attacking anyone's character personally or attacking someone for sins like zina, wine, gambling, music so on. That's the kind of assumption of good and veil of privacy one can maintain but we're talking about PUBLIC TRUST which involves all of us. All of us who contribute and think about contributing which is why these kind of sentiments do not belong in this discussion.

I've heard a lot of lectures about the government of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) from various reputable scholars from Iran, Arabia and Subcontinent. A common feature in these lectures was that the orators said that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) use to have a network of spies to spy on government officials so they do not do any kind of corruption. Why didn't Imam Ali(عليه السلام) just assume the good of people? Because both wealth and power can corrupt ordinary people whether they appear to be Holier than Thou or the most knowledgeable. This was accountability for them. Now if someone wants to be a scholar so they can charge 5000$ for a lecture, then spend this money on vice and hoarding. I have no problem with that, that's between someone and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But if someone wants to be a scholar so they can be a Khums millionaire, then it affects me and I have a problem with that. So based on the principle of being honest, accountable, Using obligatory precaution which is the most used word in our Fiqh. There must be a proper auditing system of every penny so we can know where this money goes and how it's used. It has more benefits of maintainance and showing people there's nothing to hide. It'll only generate more Khums and silence the naysayers like me. If there's so much opposition to this, then something illicit is going on.

Wasalam.

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9 hours ago, El Cid said:

Walaikum Asalam.

Brother. Let me put it straight to you. The difference between you and I is that I don't hold people to superhuman standards nor my loyalty is conflicted between Prophet(SW) and other people. When you think of these Marjai as "The Right hand of Abbas(AS)" "The sword of Ali(AS)" "The Defenders of Shia Islam and Opposition to Satanic Forces" Then there's going to be a huge degree of bias involved which will keep you from seeing things from a moderate realist perspective. But it's not your fault either, If I believed in such things as well then every word of this topic will look as slanderous to me as it is you where I'd start pulling out verses from Quran, warning of Judgement day, accusing someone of Unislamic behavior. There's a hadith from Abu Huraia who claims he narrated it from Prophet(SW). I don't trust Abu Hurairah but this one doesn't look too suspicious: "Love your beloved moderately, perhaps he becomes hated to you someday. And hate whom you hate moderately, perhaps he becomes your beloved someday."

 

Grade Hasan (Darussalam)    
Reference  : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1997
In-book reference

 : Book 27, Hadith 103

 

 

Though it doesn't sound like it's Unislamic in any way either so it could be a Sahih hadith. Now why am I sharing this? Because You and your elk will violate any tenant of Islam and decency if it means defending those you hold to such a high pedestal that you somewhat have turned their image into being Pseudo-Masoomem. Where's the evidence of this on your part? From your words:

The original Hadith words: “And there will be people who will study religion for other than Allah (i.e., for earning prestige or wealth"

Your innovated words you put to paint a narrative/agenda: "Thank you for the sources. It does say there will be SOME scholars who work for prestige/wealth"

Did you know that adding innovations of your own or miscontruing the words of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams(Peace be upon them) is a grave sin which carries a hefty punishment on the day of Judgement? Why did you do this? Because of the reasons I just told you above. To defend your scholars you misconstructed the words of Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by adding a narrative that well it can only be a small minority. The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said there will be people, He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't specify that it will be a large majority or a small minority but to fit your agenda, you chose to add proportions. 

But here Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) does add size: “O Salman, this will happen when honours will be defiled, and sins will be committed, and the evil people will have authority upon good people, and lie will be prevalent" -> It clearly says that evil people will have authority and lie will be more prevalant. What's the opposite of lie? It's truth. The hadith is saying that lies will be more in size than the truth will be. So why shouldn't we hold ordinary people accountable for their actions? Why is it so prepostrous, So slanderous, So controversial to implement an accounting system so public wealth isn't mishandled by anyone. It's basic common logic sense. We're not attacking anyone's character personally or attacking someone for sins like zina, wine, gambling, music so on. That's the kind of assumption of good and veil of privacy one can maintain but we're talking about PUBLIC TRUST which involves all of us. All of us who contribute and think about contributing which is why these kind of sentiments do not belong in this discussion.

I've heard a lot of lectures about the government of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) from various reputable scholars from Iran, Arabia and Subcontinent. A common feature in these lectures was that the orators said that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) use to have a network of spies to spy on government officials so they do not do any kind of corruption. Why didn't Imam Ali(عليه السلام) just assume the good of people? Because both wealth and power can corrupt ordinary people whether they appear to be Holier than Thou or the most knowledgeable. This was accountability for them. Now if someone wants to be a scholar so they can charge 5000$ for a lecture, then spend this money on vice and hoarding. I have no problem with that, that's between someone and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But if someone wants to be a scholar so they can be a Khums millionaire, then it affects me and I have a problem with that. So based on the principle of being honest, accountable, Using obligatory precaution which is the most used word in our Fiqh. There must be a proper auditing system of every penny so we can know where this money goes and how it's used. It has more benefits of maintainance and showing people there's nothing to hide. It'll only generate more Khums and silence the naysayers like me. If there's so much opposition to this, then something illicit is going on.

Wasalam.

I apologise for adding the word "some," it was not my intention to change any words, and it was not a direct quote.

I will refrain from responding anymore as this will get us nowhere.

Wa asSalaam

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