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In the Name of God بسم الله

Pakistani Shias, refute this anti-shia video

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  • Veteran Member

:salam:

How can we refute this video?

In my opinion bandagi could mean obedience and rabb could mean master in the subordinate sense (slave of God but our master in the sense we should obey them) “obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority”.

 

 

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This is a form of misquoted words of Aqeel ul Gharavi. This has also been emphasized clearly by him in the same Majlis. The link can be seen for my post as this video has already been refuted:

Aqeel ul gharavi is the same scholar  who has rejected the ghuluw and Nusary thoughts.

The words of explanation for bandagi (following)of the same Majlis from Aqeel ul gharavi is given below: (These words have been curtailed / deleted purposely by Wahabi Majoossi group)

1.   Imam Ali (عليه السلام). is haq since he prostrated infront of Al-Haq (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)). Ali could have asked for prostration infront of him but  he refused so. 

2.   Ali is haq since he spent always prostration  to Al Haq (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).  

3. The bandagi of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) means we should prostrate infront of Al-Haq (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) like Imam Ali (عليه السلام). did so.

4.   The bandagi means obeying that we should make praise (Hamd) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like Imam Ali did so. 

5.   We should praise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Sanaye elahi) like Imam ali (عليه السلام) has done so.

6.   We should say praise to the prophet s.aw. by Naat like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did so.

7.   We should carry out charity like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) carried this act of charity 

8.  We should stop the bad acts like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stop these bad actions.

9.  This  is all the bandagi of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  He performed each and every act for the Niyaat of Qurbtaen Ella Allah ie to get nearness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

10.  Thus your each action should be for Qurbaten ella Allah ie to get nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

11.  This is all about the bandagi of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Once again, a great production and expose by anti-majos. Aqeel ul-Gharavi knows very well that bandagi is the standard Urdu translation of Ibadah, worship, and not service (ghulami, khidmat). He says we are incapable of doing Allah’s “bandagi” and can only do Ali’s “bandagi”. If he means obedience, then he has divided obedience to Allah from obedience to Ali رضى الله عنه, which means he believes sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه came with a new Shari’ah different from the Shari’ah which Allah revealed to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But it is obvious he was doing taqiyah by trying to explain bandagi as something other than worship while in the majlis he clearly meant worship.

Without Tawhid you have no Islam.

Edited by Cherub786
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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

Without Imam you have no Tawhid. 

Wrong.

And your sect claims to have all the Imams, yet your sect is the worst offender in doing shirk, prostrating to graves, praying to the dead, ascribing divinity to the Imams, and enacting pagan rites like self-cutting, wailing, etc., which even the Torah forbids. So how did believing in Imams practically make you better Muwahhidin than us?

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32 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Once again, a great production and expose by anti-majos. Aqeel ul-Gharavi knows very well that bandagi is the standard Urdu translation of Ibadah, worship, and not service (ghulami, khidmat).

As usual, displaying your ignorance:

Here is the Urdu Lughat, find out the standard meaning of bandagi:

١ - غلامی، خدمت، نوکری۔
 ہم بھی حاضر ہیں بندگی کے لیے آپ کو ہو جو صاحبی کی ہوس      ( کلیات حسرت، ٢١٢ )
٢ - اطاعت، تابعداری، فرماں برداری۔
"قاضی ضیا نے میری بندگی اختیار کی۔"    ( ١٨٩٦ء، تاریخ ہندوستان، ٩٤:٣ )
٣ - عبادت، اطاعت، عبودیت۔
 نہ کی تم نے افسوس کچھ بندگی بہت حشر میں ہو گی شرمندگی    ( ١٨٩٣ء، قصہ ماہ و اختر پری پیکر، ٤ )
٤ - عقیدت، تعلق خاطر، وابستگی۔
 تجھی کو جپتا ہوں ایمان کی مجھے سو گند یہی وظیفہ ہے قرآن کی مجھے سو گند تجھی سے بندگی رکھتا ہوں خدا کی قسم    ( ١٨١٠ء، کلیات میر، ١٣٣٧ )
 
You would have hanged all these writers & would have declared them kafir.
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1 minute ago, Cool said:

As usual, displaying your ignorance:

Here is the Urdu Lughat, find out the standard meaning of bandagi:

١ - غلامی، خدمت، نوکری۔
 ہم بھی حاضر ہیں بندگی کے لیے آپ کو ہو جو صاحبی کی ہوس      ( کلیات حسرت، ٢١٢ )
٢ - اطاعت، تابعداری، فرماں برداری۔
"قاضی ضیا نے میری بندگی اختیار کی۔"    ( ١٨٩٦ء، تاریخ ہندوستان، ٩٤:٣ )
٣ - عبادت، اطاعت، عبودیت۔
 نہ کی تم نے افسوس کچھ بندگی بہت حشر میں ہو گی شرمندگی    ( ١٨٩٣ء، قصہ ماہ و اختر پری پیکر، ٤ )
٤ - عقیدت، تعلق خاطر، وابستگی۔
 تجھی کو جپتا ہوں ایمان کی مجھے سو گند یہی وظیفہ ہے قرآن کی مجھے سو گند تجھی سے بندگی رکھتا ہوں خدا کی قسم    ( ١٨١٠ء، کلیات میر، ١٣٣٧ )
 
You would have hanged all these writers & would have declared them kafir.

This is the purely linguistic definition of bandagi and not its technical or terminological meaning which is Ibadat.

As you may know, even the Arabic word ibadah linguistically means servitude or slavery, such that the word for slave is abd. Yet in the Islamic terminology ibadah is reserved for Allah alone and it is not permissible for a master to address his slave as “abdi” but rather he is to refer to him as “ghulami”.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

This is the purely linguistic definition of bandagi and not its technical or terminological meaning which is Ibadat

So all the writers were ignorant of technical meaning of this word. You know you are trying to be Baba e Urdu while you don't even know the dot of ba.

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Since you don't know Tawhid therefore everything seems to you as shirk. Again I am correct, without Imam, you have no Tawhid.

That’s your circular reasoning. The meaning of Tawhid should be obvious to any Muslim, it is to worship Allah alone. But your sect believe that the Imams are Allah’s partners and that you can pray to the Imams like how you pray to Allah. According to your sect both prayers “Allah grant me a son” and “Imam grant me a son” are valid prayers. Christians likewise don’t have Tawhid, so they pray “Father (God) grant me a son” and “Jesus grant me a son”, and Hindus also pray “Ram grant me a son” “Krisna grant me a son”.

But we monotheistic Muslims pray to Allah alone.

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Just now, Cool said:

So all the writers were ignorant of technical meaning of this word. You know you are trying to be Baba e Urdu while you don't even know the dot of ba.

Not at all, a secular dictionary is going to give the linguistic meaning only, not the Islamic technical or terminological definition.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

That’s your circular reasoning.

Actually you have created circles around yourself & you love to circle around in those self imposed circles. Thats the reason everything is circular for you.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

Not at all, a secular dictionary is going to give the linguistic meaning only, not the Islamic technical or terminological definition.

We are talking about a word of Urdu language. There is no islamic or un-Islamic in any language. The same word can be used for worshipping but it has other meanings too.

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5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The meaning of Tawhid should be obvious to any Muslim, it is to worship Allah alone.

Problem is right here, in worship i.e., bandagi. Look at what Iblis has done and look at yourself what you're doing. 

Refusing to accept Khalifatullah. Is it shirk, kufr or worship?

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Wrong.

And your sect claims to have all the Imams, yet your sect is the worst offender in doing shirk, prostrating to graves, praying to the dead, ascribing divinity to the Imams, and enacting pagan rites like self-cutting, wailing, etc., which even the Torah forbids. So how did believing in Imams practically make you better Muwahhidin than us?

We do Shirk O' Worshipper of Al Shab al Amrad?

Quote

prostrating to graves

Praying by or on graves isn't Shirk. If we use that "Sunni" logic then we can conclude that you are worshipping the Prayer Carpet you pray on.

Quote

praying to the dead

Praying to the dead? You and your sect are sad. Tawasul to an Imam (عليه السلام) doesn't send us to Jannah because the Imams aren't Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Tawasul to the Imams means to ask them to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive you.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

enacting pagan rites like self-cutting, wailing, etc which even the Torah forbids.

The self cutting is only a thing that some Shias do. And Alhamdulillah the Marja I follow banned such a thing. You should read your books so you don't keep making Ignorant statements. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wailed over Imam al Husayn, does that make our beloved Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a pagan? Authobillah, of course not. Only Sunnis like you would compare Islam to the Changed Jewish Torah.

Quote

So how did believing in Imams practically make you better Muwahhidin than us?

Unlike you we didn't go astray because we followed the Quran and the 12 Imams of Ahlulbayt. We are Muwahhidin because we don't worship a god who is Al Shab al Amrad. 

"A wise means thinks first then speaks. But a Fool speaks first then thinks."

-Amir al Mumineen, Al Sideeq Al Akbar, Al Faruq, Asad Allah, Sayf Allah Al Maslool, Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Think about what you are about to say then say it.

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7 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:

How can we refute this video?

In my opinion bandagi could mean obedience and rabb could mean master in the subordinate sense (slave of God but our master in the sense we should obey them) “obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority”.

 

The vedio is full of manipulation and lies and I am positive he did not mean to say what is being attributed to him, but I do think he should have been more careful with his words. From what I have seen Pakistanis are prone to ghuluw, so much so that it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate Imami beliefs and ghuluw.

People believe what those on the pulpit tell them to believe. So it's their responsibility to teach only what is found in the authentic teachings of the Prophet and Imams.

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49 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

@Cherub786, please stop spreading misinformation. If you persist with attributing such things to us then I am afraid that you will no longer be welcome on the forum. 

Open and critical discussion is always welcome, dishonest accusations are not.

But who will decide what is a dishonest accusation and what isn’t? When I said the Shi’ah make their Imams partners with Allah, that is not a dishonest accusation from our perspective, that is how orthodox Sunni Islam perceives Twelver Shi’ism. Let me give you an example. According to Islam Christians worship three gods. Now if I went on a Christian forum and said “Christians worship three gods”, what should I do or how should I respond if one of their mods said “Cherub you are lying, this is a dishonest accusation, we only worship one God, you are welcome to criticize our religion but dishonest accusations cannot be tolerated”.

I hope you can see that from Islam’s perspective Christianity is tritheistic, though Christianity itself does not perceive itself as anything other than monotheistic. Likewise, from my perspective Twelver Shi’ism makes Imams partners with Allah but from your perspective that is not true. So the solution is to debate or discuss the issue, not accuse each other of being dishonest, with all due respect.

Now read this too:

33 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

We do Shirk O' Worshipper of Al Shab al Amrad?

According to Mr. Ansur, I am a “worshipper of Al Shab al Amrad” meaning beardless curly haired youth. I consider this false, I only worship Allah. But according to Mr. Ansur I am a worshipper of a curly haired youth. I am not going to accuse him of launching a dishonest accusation against me though I could. If that’s what he perceives Sunni Islam is then fine. I can debate and discuss with him and if he is sincere then perhaps he will change his mind.

Now in my perspective, when Twelver Shi’ah pray to their Imams they are making those Imams partners with Allah because prayer should only be directed to God alone. Is that really a straight up “dishonest accusation”? I ask you to consider this with an open mind.

But if you insist, I will desist from making this “accusation” in the spirit of friendly discussion.

Edited by Cherub786
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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

But who will decide what is a dishonest accusation and what isn’t? When I said the Shi’ah make their Imams partners with Allah, that is not a dishonest accusation from our perspective, that is how orthodox Sunni Islam perceives Twelver Shi’ism. Let me give you an example. According to Islam Christians worship three gods. Now if I went on a Christian forum and said “Christians worship three gods”, what should I do or how should I respond if one of their mods said “Cherub you are lying, this is a dishonest accusation, we only worship one God, you are welcome to criticize our religion but dishonest accusations cannot be tolerated”.

I hope you can see that from Islam’s perspective Christianity is tritheistic, though Christianity itself does not perceive itself as anything other than monotheistic. Likewise, from my perspective Twelver Shi’ism makes Imams partners with Allah but from your perspective that is not true. So the solution is to debate or discuss the issue, not accuse each other of being dishonest, with all due respect.

Now read this too:

According to Mr. Ansur, I am a “worshipper of Al Shab al Amrad” meaning curly haired youth. I consider this false, I only worship Allah. But according to Mr. Ansur I am a worshipper of a curly haired youth. I am not going to accuse him of launching a dishonest accusation against me though I could. If that’s what he perceives Sunni Islam is then fine. I can debate and discuss with him and if he is sincere then perhaps he will change his mind.

Now in my perspective, when Twelver Shi’ah pray to their Imams they are making those Imams partners with Allah because prayer should only be directed to God alone. Is that really a straight up “dishonest accusation”? I ask you to consider this with an open mind.

But if you insist, I will desist from making this “accusation” in the spirit of friendly discussion.

If you can show me legitimate narrations in our books showing the Imams saying to pray to them I’ll be interested not obscure scholars or narrations but vital parts of our aqeedah. because you have made an absolutely ridiculous statement. The Imams have the the same spiritual inheritance of Prophet Mohammed sawa. Shia Islam is simple, the Prophet Mohammed sawa is the final Prophets and the Imams are the spiritual successors.

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25 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

they are making those Imams partners with Allah because prayer should only be directed to God alone.

Do you think the same about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while reading 5:55? Are the mowla as per that verse means partners of Allah? 

Even if you take the meaning of "mowla" as friend, do you think these personalities are shareek in your friendship with Allah? 

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Cherub my brother I honestly thought you were a well read sunni bro.  False and or wrong accusations is not having integrity for oneself in the first instance. 

And please Aqeel Gharavi is an Iraqi and an Hindustani, so Arabic and Urdu are his mother tongues. 

Though I could agree that he should not have used that word considering the audience. One cannot disseminate a higher level of ilm to students of a lower class' and where it causes confusion. He literally is a master of Urdu and Arabic lughat and connotations. 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Do you think the same about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while reading 5:55? Are the mowla as per that verse means partners of Allah? 

Even if you take the meaning of "mowla" as friend, do you think these personalities are shareek in your friendship with Allah? 

Exactly like there is a vertical hierarchy too, but we digress  

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Rabb in Urdu also means پالنے والا

Rabbayani in Urdu also means same. پالنے والا، پروان چڑھانے والا Although it has a different root word in Arabic. 

Another example of Rabbayani is in the form of Nurrabbik in following verse:

قَالَ أَلَمْ نُرَبِّكَ فِينَا وَلِيدًا وَلَبِثْتَ فِينَا مِنْ عُمُرِكَ سِنِينَ {18}

[Shakir 26:18] (Firon) said: Did we not bring you up as a child among us, and you tarried among us for (many) years of your life?

 

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Urafa says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Rabb al-arbab (Lord of the lords):

Quote

rabb al-arbab
Lord of all lords

(Rabb al Arbab). Each thing has its own lord. Those who are misguided are approved of by their own lord but condemned by Allah, Who is Lord of all lords. Each thing's lord is the particular Face that Allah has turned towards it. The majority of mankind look upon the secondary causes as their lords and in so doing they do not find the Lord of all lords, Allah.

 

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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Once again, a great production and expose by anti-majos. Aqeel ul-Gharavi knows very well that bandagi is the standard Urdu translation of Ibadah, worship, and not service (ghulami, khidmat). He says we are incapable of doing Allah’s “bandagi” and can only do Ali’s “bandagi”. If he means obedience, then he has divided obedience to Allah from obedience to Ali رضى الله عنه, which means he believes sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه came with a new Shari’ah different from the Shari’ah which Allah revealed to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But it is obvious he was doing taqiyah by trying to explain bandagi as something other than worship while in the majlis he clearly meant worship.

Without Tawhid you have no Islam.

And at the same person rejects the meaning you are trying to impose. So thats non sense.

Plus you can only obey Allah, if you obey Khalifa Tullah, without obeying Khalifa tullah, you cannot obey Allah and according to shia perspective, Ali (عليه السلام) was choosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and people refused to obey him. So i don't see any problem with what he said. If Aqeel Gharvi was to openly promote Worshiping Ali (عليه السلام), he would never have gone against people calling Ali Rab. So is this how wahabi logic works? Lol

Plus it's old habit of Nawasib to misquote us. I see no problem with these Majoosis either.

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9 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:

How can we refute this video?

In my opinion bandagi could mean obedience and rabb could mean master in the subordinate sense (slave of God but our master in the sense we should obey them) “obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority”.

 

 

There is no need to refute this non sense.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Now in my perspective, when Twelver Shi’ah pray to their Imams they are making those Imams partners with Allah because prayer should only be directed to God alone. Is that really a straight up

:hahaha:

Doing Dua/Tawasul to an Imam (عليه السلام) is different then praying to someone.

Brother For all I know, I don't Worship the Imams. Anyone who Actually says "I am praying to Ali and he is My god", that is Shirk. You would have to give an example/be more specific on what they do/say.

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3 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And at the same person rejects the meaning you are trying to impose. So thats non sense.

Plus you can only obey Allah, if you obey Khalifa Tullah, without obeying Khalifa tullah, you cannot obey Allah and according to shia perspective, Ali (عليه السلام) was choosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and people refused to obey him. So i don't see any problem with what he said. If Aqeel Gharvi was to openly promote Worshiping Ali (عليه السلام), he would never have gone against people calling Ali Rab. So is this how wahabi logic works? Lol

Plus it's old habit of Nawasib to misquote us. I see no problem with these Majoosis either.

Perhaps you can explain something. When Gharavi said “we can’t do Allah’s bandagi” what did he mean?

What is the meaning of bandagi in that context, and why did he say we can’t do Allah’s bandagi, therefore we shouldn’t even try, instead we should do Ali’s bandagi.

So there is a distinction between bandagi to Allah which Gharavi says there’s no use doing because it’s impossible, and bandagi to Ali.

Please explain clearly what Gharavi’s aim is, what is he trying to say? If I am satisfied with the explanation I may even retract my earlier comments. See, I’m a very reasonable man.

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3 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Doing Dua/Tawasul to an Imam (عليه السلام) is different then praying to someone.

How? Du’a means prayer, calling upon someone, asking them – prayer.

We monotheistic Muslims only make Du’a to Allah, but apparently you make Du’a to mortal humans who died centuries ago. Nothing remains of them in this world except their bones buried in the Earth. How is worshipping bones any better than worshipping statues made of bronze or wood?

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  خدا کے عاشق تو ہیں ہزاروں، بنوں میں پھرتے ہیں مارے مارے

میں اس کا بندہ بنوں گا جسے خدا کے بندوں سے پیار ھو گا

علامہ اقبال

@Cherub786 lol I thought anti Shias are weak only in religious education but today you have proven they also slept through Urdu lessons. 

Edited by starlight
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Just now, Cherub786 said:

If I may be candid, Iqbal was an imbecile

Of course. I understand, anyone who doesn't subscribe to your tunnel vision is mushrik, deranged, unhinged etc etc. Lol.

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