The 12 Imams/Caliphs names' mentioned in a Sunni, Hanafi, book and more

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Come on Sunnis...How much more clear does it get? The 1st book is written by a Hanafi, the 2nd by a Shaf'i

Edited October 9, 2020 by Ansur Shiat Ali

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

I see that the Sunnis stayed quiet.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 10/9/2020 at 3:50 PM, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Come on Sunnis...How much more clear does it get? The 1st book is written by a Hanafi, the 2nd by a Shaf'i

But hadith is clearly quoted from Sheikh Sadooqs Book. So Its weak according to them.

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah NaqviThere is more the hadith came from, Fara'id al Simtayn is a sunni book, its writer was the Shaykh of Al Dhahabi. what has it come to? anyone who likes ahlulbayt is Shia?

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

Just now, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah NaqviThere is more the hadith came from, Fara'id al Simtayn is a sunni book, its writer was the Shaykh of Al Dhahabi. what has it come to? anyone who likes ahlulbayt is Shia?

No. I am not saying authors aren't sunni.

I am saying even if a Sunni Muhaddith quoted hadith from Sheikh Sadooqs book, its not a hujjah for sunnis.

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Also when Al Qunduzi al Hanafi quotes Fara'id al Simtayn, he is quoting a Sunni Hadith, not the one Al Saduq (رضي الله عنه) narrated.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah NaqviThere is more the hadith came from, Fara'id al Simtayn is a sunni book, its writer was the Shaykh of Al Dhahabi. what has it come to? anyone who likes ahlulbayt is Shia?

There reference of Yanabe Al Muwaddah you quoted.

it says In Faraid Us Simtain, from the chain upto Mujahid from ibn Abbas from Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)....

Can you post screen shot of this hadith?

It seems like a sunni hadith

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Also when Al Qunduzi al Hanafi quotes Fara'id al Simtayn, he is quoting a Sunni Hadith, not the one Al Saduq (رضي الله عنه) narrated.

The highlighted Person is Sheikh Sadooq. So its a shia hadith quoted in Sunni hadith book.

[Labbayka]

18 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

There reference of Yanabe Al Muwaddah you quoted.

It says In Faraid Us Simtain, from the chain upto Mujahid from ibn Abbas from Rasool ...

Can you post screen shot of this hadith?

It seems like a sunni hadith

Salam Brother, do you mind sending over all the references you have of the Ahlulbayt Asws in Sunni books which they take as Sahih

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

Salam Brother, do you mind sending over all the references you have of the Ahlulbayt Asws in Sunni books which they take as Sahih

I don't have any. I have seen these before so i just mentioned the problem with these.

And now i prefer reading Shia Hadith rather than Sunni fabrications

Edited November 1, 2020 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Labbayka]

A more conclusive hadith is this: But Sunnis will still say it isn’t hujjah as it doesn’t mentioned the Ahlulbayt by name:

 

Sahih Muslim 1821 e

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.
 

But the Sunnis also have this hadith found in Musnad Ahmed ibn Hambal graded: Hassan I will post it later I’m on my phone but the hadith states those who die without pledging an alleigence to an Imam does a death of Jahiliyah and this hadith is found in other Sunni books aswell all with Hassan gradings.

 

Bearing in mind Sunnis also have an hadith in Muslim that say that rebelling against the Imam is kufr, now as Shias this is a double edged sword. We can use it to prove that the battle of Siffin and Battle of Jamal but can’t use it because of the case of Imam Hussain AS.

 

Anyways back to the earlier point about death without an Imam, because it’s Hassan doesn’t mean that the Sunni will discard it, as there own scholars have said that it is acceptable to take Hassan hadiths.

 

So now the Sunni is left with two problems:

 

1) Sunnis don’t have a unified spiritual leader, so who’s the Imam of there time now? 
 

2) Dying with pledging allegiance to the Imam of the time would mean that the Prophet saw own daughter didn’t pledge allegiance to the first caliph who was also from the Quraysh, but so was the legitimate one: Amir al Momineen AS. This is a long talk and I’m on my phone but I will get back to it

[Labbayka]

4 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

A more conclusive hadith is this: But Sunnis will still say it isn't hujjah as it doesn't mentioned the Ahlulbayt by name:

 

Sahih Muslim 1821 e

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.
 

But the Sunnis also have this hadith found in Musnad Ahmed ibn Hambal graded: Hassan I will post it later I'm on my phone but the hadith states those who die without pledging an alleigence to an Imam does a death of Jahiliyah and this hadith is found in other Sunni books aswell all with Hassan gradings.

 

Bearing in mind Sunnis also have an hadith in Muslim that say that rebelling against the Imam is kufr, now as Shias this is a double edged sword. We can use it to prove that the battle of Siffin and Battle of Jamal but can't use it because of the case of Imam Hussain AS.

 

Anyways back to the earlier point about death without an Imam, because it's Hassan doesn't mean that the Sunni will discard it, as there own scholars have said that it is acceptable to take Hassan hadiths.

 

So now the Sunni is left with two problems:

 

1) Sunnis don't have a unified spiritual leader, so who's the Imam of there time now? 
 

2) Dying with pledging allegiance to the Imam of the time would mean that the Prophet saw own daughter didn't pledge allegiance to the first caliph who was also from the Quraysh, but so was the legitimate one: Amir al Momineen AS. This is a long talk and I'm on my phone but I will get back to it

Sahih Muslim 2913 a

Abu Nadra reported:

"We were in the company of Jabir b. 'Abdullah that he said it may happen that the people of Iraq may not send their qafiz and dirhams (their measures of food stuff and their money). We said: Who would be responsible for it? He said: The non-Arabs would prevent them. He again said: There is the possibility that the people of Syria may not send their dinars and mudds. We said: Who would be responsible for it? He said this prevention would be made by the Romans. He (Jabir b. Abdullah) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said there would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: Do you mean 'Umar b. 'Abd al-Aziz? They said: No (he would be Imam Mahdi).

 

I found this interesting, there’s little details on the Imam Mahdi in Sunni books but this corroborates the facts that 

 

A) The concept of Imamah in Quraysh was known to the Sunnis as it is to Shias

 

B) That the final of these twelve is Imam Mahdi, again corroborating with the Shia school of thought.

[Abu Nur]

One of the problem with the hadiths that mention 12 Imams is that in reality the followers did not probably know any of it, because why there were so many shia sects and disputing of who was the next Imam?

Edited November 1, 2020 by Abu Nur

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

The highlighted Person is Sheikh Sadooq. So its a shia hadith quoted in Sunni hadith book.

This is not the Hadith al Qunduzi quoted, this is just another hadith. 

Also, Sunni scholars like Ibn Hajar say there is no problem with taking from the Shia if they are thiqah . How come when it comes to Ahlulbayt everything changes?

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Al Qunduzi al Hanafi takes from a Shia Hadith and he accepts the fact that the 12 Caliphs hadith has been played with.

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/8

The original Hadith says that the 12 Caliphs will be from Banu Hashim.

عن عبد الملك بن عمير عن جابر بن سمرة قال : كنت مع أبى عند النبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم) فسمعته يقول : " بعدي اثني عشر خليفة ثم أخفى صوته فقلت لأبي ما الذي أخفى صوته ؟ قال : قال : " كلهم من بني هاشم "

Yanabe' al Mawada, page 445

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

حدثنا عبد اللَّهِ حدثني أبي ثنا حَسَنُ بن مُوسَي ثنا حَمَّادُ بن زَيْدٍ عَنِ الْمُجَالِدِ عَنِ الشعبي عن مَسْرُوقٍ قال: كنا جُلُوساً عِنْدَ عبد اللَّهِ بن مَسْعُودٍ وهو يُقْرِئُنَا الْقُرْآنَ فقال له رَجُلٌ: يا أَبَا عبد الرحمن هل سَأَلْتُمْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وسلم كَمْ تملك هذه الأُمَّةَ من خَلِيفَةٍ؟ فقال عبد اللَّهِ بن مَسْعُودٍ: ما سألني عنها أَحَدٌ مُنْذُ قَدِمْتُ الْعِرَاقَ قَبْلَكَ ثُمَّ قال: نعم. وَلَقَدْ سَأَلْنَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وسلم فقال: اثْنَا عَشَرَ كَعِدَّةِ نُقَبَاءِ بني إِسْرَائِيلَ

On the authority of Musruq, he said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Masoud while he was reading the Qur’an from us, and
A man said to him: O Abu Abd al-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, how much Caliphs this nation will have? Abdullah bin Masoud said: No one asked me about it since I arrived in Iraq before you, then he said: Yes. We have asked the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, who said: 
Twelve, as many of the captains of the children of Israel.

 

Musnad Ahmad Hanbal Volume 6 Hadith 3781 and 3859

 

الْمُجَالِدِ Has been considered as weak by many and Thiqa by Imam Nisai of Ahle Sunnah.

 

Hadith Authenticated by many Imams of Ahle Sunnah

 

Ibn Hajjar Asqalani wrote:

وقال إسحاق: أخبرنا أبو أسامة قالا: ثنا المجالد عن الشعبي عن مسروق قال: جَاءَ رَجُلٌ إِلَي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ فَقَالَ: هَلْ حَدَّثَكُمْ نَبِيُّكُمْ صلي الله عليه وآله كَمْ يَكُونُ بَعْدَهُ مِنَ الْخُلَفَاءِ؟ فَقَالَ: نَعَمْ. وَمَا سَأَلَنِي أَحَدٌ قَبْلَكَ وَإِنَّكَ لَأَحْدَثُ الْقَوْمِ سِنّاً نَعَمْ. قَالَ:يَكُونُ بَعْدِي عِدَّةُ نُقَبَاءِ مُوسَي اثني عشر نقيبا.

هذا اسناده حسن

Chain of this hadith is Hasan

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر ابوالفضل (متوفي852هـ)، ج9، ص577، المطالب العالية بزوائد المسانيد الثمانية، تحقيق: د. سعد بن ناصر بن عبد العزيز الشتري، ناشر: دار العاصمة/ دار الغيث، الطبعة: الأولي، السعودية - 1419هـ.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

14 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Al Qunduzi al Hanafi takes from a Shia Hadith and he accepts the fact that the 12 Caliphs hadith has been played with.

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/8

The original Hadith says that the 12 Caliphs will be from Banu Hashim.

عن عبد الملك بن عمير عن جابر بن سمرة قال : كنت مع أبى عند النبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم) فسمعته يقول : " بعدي اثني عشر خليفة ثم أخفى صوته فقلت لأبي ما الذي أخفى صوته ؟ قال : قال : " كلهم من بني هاشم "

Yanabe' al Mawada, page 445

I would like to add to it.

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/8

There are a bunch of hadiths that say so.

Now we know Quraish had many sub groups, among them was Bani Hashim. People might says Abu Bakr was from Quraish and sow as Umar and Usman etc

From Sahih Muslim we will show who was choosen from Quraish by Allah Almighty:

Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Verily Allah choosed Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he choosed the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he choosed Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and he choosed me from the tribe of Banu Hashim.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مِهْرَانَ الرَّازِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ سَهْمٍ، جَمِيعًا عَنِ الْوَلِيدِ، - قَالَ ابْنُ مِهْرَانَ حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، - حَدَّثَنَا الأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَمَّارٍ، شَدَّادٍ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ وَاثِلَةَ بْنَ الأَسْقَعِ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى كِنَانَةَ مِنْ وَلَدِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَاصْطَفَى قُرَيْشًا مِنْ كِنَانَةَ وَاصْطَفَى مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ وَاصْطَفَانِي مِنْ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Reference     : Sahih Muslim 2276
In-book reference     : Book 43, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Book 30, Hadith 5653

This hadith proves that the only chosen tribe from Quraish by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was Bani Hashim not the clans of Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman.

Therefore these 12 caliphs have to be from Bani-Hashim because other tribes weren't choosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

 

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مِهْرَانَ الرَّازِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ سَهْمٍ، جَمِيعًا عَنِ الْوَلِيدِ، - قَالَ ابْنُ مِهْرَانَ حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، - حَدَّثَنَا الأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَمَّارٍ، شَدَّادٍ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ وَاثِلَةَ بْنَ الأَسْقَعِ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى كِنَانَةَ مِنْ وَلَدِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَاصْطَفَى قُرَيْشًا مِنْ كِنَانَةَ وَاصْطَفَى مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ وَاصْطَفَانِي مِنْ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Reference     : Sahih Muslim 2276
In-book reference     : Book 43, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Book 30, Hadith 5653

It means Allah choosed them not the people, there for if there are going to be Imams from Quraish, they have to be chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because Allah already did so as per hadith of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

See the ayahs, same word Allah mentioned when he choosed Prophets (عليه السلام)

اِنَّ اللّٰهَ اصۡطَفٰۤى اٰدَمَ وَنُوۡحًا وَّاٰلَ اِبۡرٰهِيۡمَ وَاٰلَ عِمۡرٰنَ عَلَى الۡعٰلَمِيۡنَۙ‏

Truly Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and of 'Imran30 above all mankind.

ذُرِّيَّةًۢ بَعۡضُهَا مِنۡۢ بَعۡضٍؕ وَاللّٰهُ سَمِيۡعٌ عَلِيۡمٌۚ‏

They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

24 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

حدثنا عبد اللَّهِ حدثني أبي ثنا حَسَنُ بن مُوسَي ثنا حَمَّادُ بن زَيْدٍ عَنِ الْمُجَالِدِ عَنِ الشعبي عن مَسْرُوقٍ قال: كنا جُلُوساً عِنْدَ عبد اللَّهِ بن مَسْعُودٍ وهو يُقْرِئُنَا الْقُرْآنَ فقال له رَجُلٌ: يا أَبَا عبد الرحمن هل سَأَلْتُمْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وسلم كَمْ تملك هذه الأُمَّةَ من خَلِيفَةٍ؟ فقال عبد اللَّهِ بن مَسْعُودٍ: ما سألني عنها أَحَدٌ مُنْذُ قَدِمْتُ الْعِرَاقَ قَبْلَكَ ثُمَّ قال: نعم. وَلَقَدْ سَأَلْنَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلي الله عليه وسلم فقال: اثْنَا عَشَرَ كَعِدَّةِ نُقَبَاءِ بني إِسْرَائِيلَ

On the authority of Musruq, he said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Masoud while he was reading the Qur’an from us, and
A man said to him: O Abu Abd al-Rahman, did you ask the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, how much Caliphs this nation will have? Abdullah bin Masoud said: No one asked me about it since I arrived in Iraq before you, then he said: Yes. We have asked the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, who said: 
Twelve, as many of the captains of the children of Israel.

 

Musnad Ahmad Hanbal Volume 6 Hadith 3781 and 3859

 

الْمُجَالِدِ Has been considered as weak by many and Thiqa by Imam Nisai of Ahle Sunnah.

 

Hadith Authenticated by many Imams of Ahle Sunnah

 

Ibn Hajjar Asqalani wrote:

وقال إسحاق: أخبرنا أبو أسامة قالا: ثنا المجالد عن الشعبي عن مسروق قال: جَاءَ رَجُلٌ إِلَي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ فَقَالَ: هَلْ حَدَّثَكُمْ نَبِيُّكُمْ صلي الله عليه وآله كَمْ يَكُونُ بَعْدَهُ مِنَ الْخُلَفَاءِ؟ فَقَالَ: نَعَمْ. وَمَا سَأَلَنِي أَحَدٌ قَبْلَكَ وَإِنَّكَ لَأَحْدَثُ الْقَوْمِ سِنّاً نَعَمْ. قَالَ:يَكُونُ بَعْدِي عِدَّةُ نُقَبَاءِ مُوسَي اثني عشر نقيبا.

هذا اسناده حسن

Chain of this hadith is Hasan

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر ابوالفضل (متوفي852هـ)، ج9، ص577، المطالب العالية بزوائد المسانيد الثمانية، تحقيق: د. سعد بن ناصر بن عبد العزيز الشتري، ناشر: دار العاصمة/ دار الغيث، الطبعة: الأولي، السعودية - 1419هـ.

 

As Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said just like the cheifs of Bani Isreal. Now have a look into Quran.

Quran 5:12

وَلَقَدۡ اَخَذَ اللّٰهُ مِيۡثَاقَ بَنِىۡۤ اِسۡرآءِيۡلَۚ وَبَعَثۡنَا مِنۡهُمُ اثۡنَىۡ عَشَرَ نَقِيۡبًا

(5:12) Surely Allah took a covenant with the Children of Israel, and We raised up from them twelve of their leaders

This word has been used for Prophets (عليه السلام) that Allah raised them among the people. Now they were appointed by Allah not the people,

therefore according to hadith, where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared caliphs of his ummah to 12 chiefs of Bani Isreal, it clearly indicates that the 12 will be raised among us by Allah, not made by people.

[Muslim2010]

The simple question that arises here that if 12 imams hadith form Ahl albayt is not accepted by sunnis then a mindful person may like to see an alternate set of 12 caliphs / imams/ ameers  mentioned by a single hadith of the prophet  s,a,w instead of cherry picking selection by sunnis.

 

 

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The simple question that arises here that if 12 imams hadith form Ahl albayt is not accepted by sunnis then a mindful person may like to see an alternate set of 12 caliphs / imams/ ameers  mentioned by a single hadith of the prophet  s,a,w instead of cherry picking selection by sunnis.

 

 

Exactly, there best scholars take their religion from people who were taught by the Imams, like Abu Hanifa (even tho he did his own thing). While the others are just Nasibis.