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In the Name of God بسم الله

Struggle to establish Islamic government

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35 minutes ago, Cool said:

@Hadi5, It is good if one struggles sincerely to establish Islamic form of government. But it is not obligatory.

 

Isn't following Quranic laws obligatory.

What is punishment of theif .

Is it allowed to take intrest? Is it allowed to open shop's,casino etc in Islamic nation.

Is Quran only for reading or applying.

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I believe I can perfectly follow Islam even in non-muslim country. 

There's a saying " think of Allah before, and after the action". If we are living in a country where we are able to live peacefully, and practice our religious beliefs freely why create an uprise wher

Alright then. Start a fund raiser then send me the money, I will send you a shipment of water guns, paint sprays to draw graffiti and slogans on city walls, as well as gas masks when the police uses t

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8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Pardon me, but you’re response is nothing but non-sequitur.

The issue is where does Islam obligate or teach us to establish an actual State?

I’m not saying that if there is a state it isn't religiously and morally obligated to prevent vices like alcohol, prostitution and interest.

But my question is, where is the imperative to establish a State in the first place?

As for Khomeini, I think he was wrong to revolt against the Shah of Iran as a matter of principle. Then when he did seize power for himself, he was in the wrong to liquidate the political opposition and all manner of dissent, and to basically repeat the same human rights violations he rightly criticized the Shah’s regime for.

What Khomeini established was a mulla-cracy something that has no precedent in the history of Islam.

Mulla-cracy and Mulla-ism are to be rejected.

Brother you have right to criticize. But at least do some research before doing it .

Just give a strong evidence what wrong did Khomeini do.

 

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On 10/9/2020 at 12:09 AM, Guest Demon King said:

عَنْهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ الْمُخْتَارِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ كُلُّ رَايَةٍ تُرْفَعُ قَبْلَ قِيَامِ الْقَائِمِ فَصَاحِبُهَا طَاغُوتٌ يُعْبَدُ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ

From Abī Baṣīr from Abī `Abd Allāh (عليه السلام) said: “Every standard (banner) that is raised before the rising of al-Qā’im (عليه السلام), then its owner is a tāghūt being worshipped apart from Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ)”

@Hadi5 So basically you're saying to "become the tāghūt" ?

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On 10/9/2020 at 1:46 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

I have 12 Imams and Khomeini is not one of them. So quoting him randomly won't make me change my thoughts. If you have anything from one of the 12 Imams (عليهم اسلام) on the lines of 'strive to establish Islamic government... ', do let me know. 

I also want to make a statement to you.

"I have 12 Imams and YOU is not one of them.  So reading your statement randomly won't make me change my thoughts. .."

Pls be polite, Imam Khomeini also studied religion from Imams.  He may made a statement that after studying many narrations.

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On 10/7/2020 at 10:12 PM, Hadi5 said:

We are all Muslims.And our prosperity in this world and hereafter lies in following Islamic laws as prescribed by Allah and followed by Ahlebayt as. But most of laws need a State government based on Islamic law which is capable and authorised to implement the Islamic laws.

But how much we are serious about it and do we have struggled to establish it?

Salam,

This is my opinion and i write for the sake of discussion.  People can agree and disagree.

Since the time of Adam (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is helping humans to establish peace on the Earth.  Many Prophets, Messengers and Guides were sent to establish it, but it was never permanent.  Corruptions will follow through after every Guide that came.  So there is trend.  Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stop?  No. 

Do the oppositions to what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wanted to establish stop? The answer is no.  Do the oppositions grow stronger,  sophisticated and more vicious? The answer is yes.

In reality, the Government of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is already established.  It already extended to us since Adam (عليه السلام).  That is the reason we pray, fast, do good, go to hajj, do amal bil maaruf wa nahi anil mungkar, pay zakat, give charities...so on.  We do all these because we are living under the government.  Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is governing us now.

Except, we want to see it encompassing all humans, so all vices are wipe out.  Fot that we have to wait in the hereafter.

When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was declared as Maula, that is the standard form on how the government should be.  Not elected but selected.  The concept of Maula must be established first in our heart before physical form can take place.

Year 2019 Arbaeen, the number is beyond 20 millions.  Everyone came to re enforce the Maula type of leadership.  During that walk, people is all equal.  Young, old, adult... with one motive. Accepting the call of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).  People were generous, polite, trying to help each others  line up for prayers....you name it.

So, we should be ready at individual level to take the call of Imams wherever we are and behave as a muslim.  Be ready to response to Imam at moment notice.  We can practice during Arbaeen.

Next Arbaeen we renew the call from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through our Mawla (Imam Hussain ).

When the actual call by Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is made, we will come from every part of the world to stand with him.  All world powers will be caught off guard.

That is how the government will be established physically (that is my belief).

Say our bay'ah to Imam Mahdi on daily basis and by be practicing Muslim wherever we are. 

As far Islamic Rep of Iran, the government is created by votes of the people.  It is meant to unite Iranian muslims so people are free to exercise the Shiites belief on daily basis without threats from Satanic agents (who work under directives of US, Zionist and Western power).  It is a source for modern time resistant to modern Pharaohs.

We have to do our parts by be ready to act promptly when the call to establish justice is made by our Awaited Imam (عليه السلام) and to make the government into physical form within very short duration.

Meanwhile,  we try to avoid creating mischiefs, call for Mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and be of those who do good.

I will end with the verses below.

[Shakir 7:54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.


[Shakir 7:55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.


[Shakir 7:56] And do not make mischief in the earth after its reformation, and call on Him fearing and hoping; surely the mercy of Allah is nigh to those who do good (to others).

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1 hour ago, layman said:

Salam,

This is my opinion and i write for the sake of discussion.  People can agree and disagree.

Since the time of Adam (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is helping humans to establish peace on the Earth.  Many Prophets, Messengers and Guides were sent to establish it, but it was never permanent.  Corruptions will follow through after every Guide that came.  So there is trend.  Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stop?  No. 

Do the oppositions to what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wanted to establish stop? The answer is no.  Do the oppositions grow stronger,  sophisticated and more vicious? The answer is yes.

In reality, the Government of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is already established.  It already extended to us since Adam (عليه السلام).  That is the reason we pray, fast, do good, go to hajj, do amal bil maaruf wa nahi anil mungkar, pay zakat, give charities...so on.  We do all these because we are living under the government.  Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is governing us now.

Except, we want to see it encompassing all humans, so all vices are wipe out.  Fot that we have to wait in the hereafter.

When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was declared as Maula, that is the standard form on how the government should be.  Not elected but selected.  The concept of Maula must be established first in our heart before physical form can take place.

Year 2019 Arbaeen, the number is beyond 20 millions.  Everyone came to re enforce the Maula type of leadership.  During that walk, people is all equal.  Young, old, adult... with one motive. Accepting the call of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).  People were generous, polite, trying to help each others  line up for prayers....you name it.

So, we should be ready at individual level to take the call of Imams wherever we are and behave as a muslim.  Be ready to response to Imam at moment notice.  We can practice during Arbaeen.

Next Arbaeen we renew the call from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through our Mawla (Imam Hussain ).

When the actual call by Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is made, we will come from every part of the world to stand with him.  All world powers will be caught off guard.

That is how the government will be established physically (that is my belief).

Say our bay'ah to Imam Mahdi on daily basis and by be practicing Muslim wherever we are. 

As far Islamic Rep of Iran, the government is created by votes of the people.  It is meant to unite Iranian muslims so people are free to exercise the Shiites belief on daily basis without threats from Satanic agents (who work under directives of US, Zionist and Western power).  It is a source for modern time resistant to modern Pharaohs.

We have to do our parts by be ready to act promptly when the call to establish justice is made by our Awaited Imam (عليه السلام) and to make the government into physical form within very short duration.

Meanwhile,  we try to avoid creating mischiefs, call for Mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and be of those who do good.

I will end with the verses below.

[Shakir 7:54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.


[Shakir 7:55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.


[Shakir 7:56] And do not make mischief in the earth after its reformation, and call on Him fearing and hoping; surely the mercy of Allah is nigh to those who do good (to others).

I disagree with you. What you want to prove that there were 40 million in Arbaeen.That one side.It would be more important if there was absolute Islamic government Iraq.

I am not criticize the million marach in Iraq.But if there would be Islamic government in Iraq then it would be of great value.

We should not get beguiled by number's, but by our achievements.

Iraq is shiati country but having American bases. 

It is of grave importance.

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12 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Basically they were Sunnis.

They were Awlias, Momins and Muslims.Beleving Imamah of Ali as.

They kept they Islam alive, secure .

So we have to keep.And establishing Islamic government is to serve Islam and help it's propagation , implement Islamic laws.

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2 hours ago, layman said:

Salam,

This is my opinion and i write for the sake of discussion.  People can agree and disagree.

Since the time of Adam (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is helping humans to establish peace on the Earth.  Many Prophets, Messengers and Guides were sent to establish it, but it was never permanent.  Corruptions will follow through after every Guide that came.  So there is trend.  Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stop?  No. 

Do the oppositions to what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wanted to establish stop? The answer is no.  Do the oppositions grow stronger,  sophisticated and more vicious? The answer is yes.

In reality, the Government of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is already established.  It already extended to us since Adam (عليه السلام).  That is the reason we pray, fast, do good, go to hajj, do amal bil maaruf wa nahi anil mungkar, pay zakat, give charities...so on.  We do all these because we are living under the government.  Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is governing us now.

Except, we want to see it encompassing all humans, so all vices are wipe out.  Fot that we have to wait in the hereafter.

When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was declared as Maula, that is the standard form on how the government should be.  Not elected but selected.  The concept of Maula must be established first in our heart before physical form can take place.

Year 2019 Arbaeen, the number is beyond 20 millions.  Everyone came to re enforce the Maula type of leadership.  During that walk, people is all equal.  Young, old, adult... with one motive. Accepting the call of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).  People were generous, polite, trying to help each others  line up for prayers....you name it.

So, we should be ready at individual level to take the call of Imams wherever we are and behave as a muslim.  Be ready to response to Imam at moment notice.  We can practice during Arbaeen.

Next Arbaeen we renew the call from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through our Mawla (Imam Hussain ).

When the actual call by Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) is made, we will come from every part of the world to stand with him.  All world powers will be caught off guard.

That is how the government will be established physically (that is my belief).

Say our bay'ah to Imam Mahdi on daily basis and by be practicing Muslim wherever we are. 

As far Islamic Rep of Iran, the government is created by votes of the people.  It is meant to unite Iranian muslims so people are free to exercise the Shiites belief on daily basis without threats from Satanic agents (who work under directives of US, Zionist and Western power).  It is a source for modern time resistant to modern Pharaohs.

We have to do our parts by be ready to act promptly when the call to establish justice is made by our Awaited Imam (عليه السلام) and to make the government into physical form within very short duration.

Meanwhile,  we try to avoid creating mischiefs, call for Mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and be of those who do good.

I will end with the verses below.

[Shakir 7:54] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.


[Shakir 7:55] Call on your Lord humbly and secretly; surely He does not love those who exceed the limits.


[Shakir 7:56] And do not make mischief in the earth after its reformation, and call on Him fearing and hoping; surely the mercy of Allah is nigh to those who do good (to others).

Establish Islamic Universities.

Use your resources your self not others.

Having your own foreign policy and millitary might.

Establish your own justice system.

Our resources are foreigners hand.They more than 1000 dollar per capita income we have less than hundred.

Because our wealth is being used by their control.

Iran denied them establish their own control on wealth and economic system and Islamic law.

That is why they sanctioned them to let world now that Islamic system is not sufficient and able to run a state

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4 hours ago, layman said:

I also want to make a statement to you.

"I have 12 Imams and YOU is not one of them.  So reading your statement randomly won't make me change my thoughts. .."

I'm sorry but that is not impolite but truth. He is fallible and not everyone agrees with him. I'll take Imam's (عليه السلام) word only. I'll take a scholar's word if he supports it with Imam's (عليه السلام) sayings/action. 

I said that because I'm asking brother to produce one hadith/incident from Aimma (عليهم اسلام) but he isn't doing anything other than making claims, like he did for Imam Taqi (عليه السلام). 

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1 hour ago, Hadi5 said:

I disagree with you. What you want to prove that there were 40 million in Arbaeen.That one side.It would be more important if there was absolute Islamic government Iraq.

I am not criticize the million marach in Iraq.But if there would be Islamic government in Iraq then it would be of great value.

We should not get beguiled by number's, but by our achievements.

Iraq is shiati country but having American bases. 

It is of grave importance.

I believe, a pure Islamic government must consist of all nationalities. All are well presented.  Otherwise, many questions will emerge later.

Arbaeen is a congregation of people  (with various backgrounds and nationalities but one belief) to show strength to even our own followers that a pure islamic government can be formed if we are united and sincere.  We have enough people to support if the pure government follow the part of Ahlulbayt.

Today, if we try to form localized  Islamic government then we have to face greatest  Western opposition.  They have learned from their mistakes for letting Iran to survive for 40s years.  I would think a very low chance to create one in Middle East unless the leader of that Islamic country serves the western interest.

I am not against Iraq to have an Islamic government.  Will it combine with Iran because both are claiming  to be Islamic government? Unless, the Islamic government of Iraq is solely for Iraqi people not representing all nationalities.  Maybe, it will work.  I have no idea.  What will be the uniting factor for the people?  In case of Iran, standard up against oppression led by Shah and the US was uniting factor while Iranians are mostly Shias.

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Establish Islamic Universities.

Use your resources your self not others.

Having your own foreign policy and millitary might.

Establish your own justice system.

Our resources are foreigners hand.They more than 1000 dollar per capita income we have less than hundred.

Because our wealth is being used by their control.

Iran denied them establish their own control on wealth and economic system and Islamic law.

That is why they sanctioned them to let world now that Islamic system is not sufficient and able to run a state

It is nice to have Islamic Goverment that is self sufficient.

We need full support of people to stand up against Western people in order to establish an Islamic Government.

I still remember during early stage of Islamic Rep of Iran,  they cannot even make toothpaste and baby diapers.  People lining up to buy eggs for years.

Those early days of Islamic Republic of Iran was not like today where currently she is self sufficient.  After 40 years with so much hardships.  8 years of imposed war, and 1 million die.

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46 minutes ago, layman said:

It is nice to have Islamic Goverment that is self sufficient.

We need full support of people to stand up against Western people in order to establish an Islamic Government.

I still remember during early stage of Islamic Rep of Iran,  they cannot even make toothpaste and baby diapers.  People lining up to buy eggs for years.

Those early days of Islamic Republic of Iran was not like today where currently she is self sufficient.  After 40 years with so much hardships.  8 years of imposed war, and 1 million die.

We hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslim who no enough food to and easily education.Then these people resort to crimes, unislamic activities and ignorance.But if you check shias enough natural resources.But since the are not organised and no well established government that use their resources.

Do you have any figure how universities are there governed and runned by Shia Muslim authority.

So we should think what time demands and what we do.

Unfortunately we get happy by showing figues millions  Shia arabaeen walk. Is this walk our goal and aim.

I know here in India shias started to establish medical College in 1990 in the name of Imam Hussain.

That simple project we can't complete in last 30 yers.

This is unfortunate State of our conversation.

In contrast see how many colleges and universities did others establish.

Our economic, educational is deteriorating.

Even our religious insight and commitment has diminished.

We think over it.

 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

We hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslim who no enough food to and easily education.Then these people resort to crimes, unislamic activities and ignorance.But if you check shias enough natural resources.But since the are not organised and no well established government that use their resources.

Do you have any figure how universities are there governed and runned by Shia Muslim authority.

So we should think what time demands and what we do.

Unfortunately we get happy by showing figues millions  Shia arabaeen walk. Is this walk our goal and aim.

I know here in India shias started to establish medical College in 1990 in the name of Imam Hussain.

That simple project we can't complete in last 30 yers.

This is unfortunate State of our conversation.

In contrast see how many colleges and universities did others establish.

Our economic, educational is deteriorating.

Even our religious insight and commitment has diminished.

We think over it.

 

I am with you Brother, 

If we have more shia owned resources to channel into development of education / skills/ technology for our youngsters  would be great.  

If we have reliable leaders, good leadership, management team and management system, then we can manage to put our resources (if we have it) into productive future for our current youths.

For certain extend, Iran has managed to upgrade their system.  But, the West has not be fair to them.  The West cheated and completely wanted to destroy Iran.  They want Iran to be like Saudis and the West is milking the wealth from Saudis resources.

Arbaeen is not just a walk, but a show of force and unity.  We cannot do it during Hajj.  Now there is an alternative of showing of force and unity.  Maybe Muslim leaders from all parts of the world should have conferences, meetings, networking and forward actions after Arbaeen on how to shape our future.

 

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1 hour ago, layman said:

I am with you Brother, 

If we have more shia owned resources to channel into development of education / skills/ technology for our youngsters  would be great.  

If we have reliable leaders, good leadership, management team and management system, then we can manage to put our resources (if we have it) into productive future for our current youths.

For certain extend, Iran has managed to upgrade their system.  But, the West has not be fair to them.  The West cheated and completely wanted to destroy Iran.  They want Iran to be like Saudis and the West is milking the wealth from Saudis resources.

Arbaeen is not just a walk, but a show of force and unity.  We cannot do it during Hajj.  Now there is an alternative of showing of force and unity.  Maybe Muslim leaders from all parts of the world should have conferences, meetings, networking and forward actions after Arbaeen on how to shape our future.

 

Brother you have rightly got the point.

But to show whom your unity. Was not Haj to show unity.

Why limited it to show only.

We are here for last 1400 yers. Did we were United , organised and really worked on.

Iran did achieved a remarkable position.And that time there was no arbaeen walk.

Because Khomeini Ra knew the islam and comefarword struggled and achieved.

Hope we will understand it and work for our betterment .

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Didn’t most of our scholars adopt a sort of political quietism (I have heard Ayatollah Sistani adopts this sort of quietism but correct me if I’m wrong)? 

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4 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Brother you have rightly got the point.

But to show whom your unity. Was not Haj to show unity.

Why limited it to show only.

We are here for last 1400 yers. Did we were United , organised and really worked on.

Iran did achieved a remarkable position.And that time there was no arbaeen walk.

Because Khomeini Ra knew the islam and comefarword struggled and achieved.

Hope we will understand it and work for our betterment .

Hajj is controlled by Saudi.  In 1987, the shias tried to show unity against the enemies Islam after Hajj in Mecca, it ended up with 400 hujjat were killed.

"Distancing Ourselves from Mushrikīn" (برائت از مشرکين) in the Muslim holy city of Mecca during the hajj...1987

Why they were killed?  The Saudi don't want Muslims to unite against the US and Zionist regime.  Today, who are uniting with these the US and Zionist regime?

During the revolution 1979, Iranians were united and and they walked.  They were against Shah and CIA Stooges in the Shah military.  They walked through the bullets.

They walked by millions and showed unity. That is the power of walking in number with force and unity.

if Iranian public didn't walk, Imam Khomeini will not be successful to lead the revolution and established Islamic Government in Iran.

 

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12 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Didn’t most of our scholars adopt a sort of political quietism (I have heard Ayatollah Sistani adopts this sort of quietism but correct me if I’m wrong)? 

Every Very High Authority Aalim knows very well how to deal with situations in their own country.  Give them respect and follow their guidance.  They will not forsake Islam for personal interests.  This is my personal opinion.

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10 minutes ago, layman said:

Every Very High Authority Aalim knows very well how to deal with situations in their own country.  Give them respect and follow their guidance.  They will not forsake Islam for personal interests.  This is my personal opinion.

Brother I think you are not right.

Islam is one religion having both religious and political diamension.

To be steadfast it's only Khomeini Ra who also worked on political diamension. He was opposed by many great Shia scholars that Islam doesn't teach politics.

And Imam Khomeini ra opposed them and said Religious and politics is one.

So he struggled on this view.

Every schoolar should come comforward and guide mass to establish Independent Islamic government.

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38 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Didn’t most of our scholars adopt a sort of political quietism (I have heard Ayatollah Sistani adopts this sort of quietism but correct me if I’m wrong)? 

That is wrong according Khomeini Ra. And it's against Islamic principal that Shia scholar to remain silent on the oppression and deprivation of muslims. 

That too when your own resources is being stolen and used against you.

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57 minutes ago, layman said:

Hajj is controlled by Saudi.  In 1987, the shias tried to show unity against the enemies Islam after Hajj in Mecca, it ended up with 400 hujjat were killed.

"Distancing Ourselves from Mushrikīn" (برائت از مشرکين) in the Muslim holy city of Mecca during the hajj...1987

Why they were killed?  The Saudi don't want Muslims to unite against the US and Zionist regime.  Today, who are uniting with these the US and Zionist regime?

During the revolution 1979, Iranians were united and and they walked.  They were against Shah and CIA Stooges in the Shah military.  They walked through the bullets.

They walked by millions and showed unity. That is the power of walking in number with force and unity.

if Iranian public didn't walk, Imam Khomeini will not be successful to lead the revolution and established Islamic Government in Iran.

 

It doesn't matter under whom control it is.But what we have achieved.

Yes, it is only when Iranian people supported him then Khomeini Ra could achieve.

I think there nothing much to debate.But to comefarword and achieve the goal .

 

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1 hour ago, Hadi5 said:

Brother I think you are not right.

Islam is one religion having both religious and political diamension.

To be steadfast it's only Khomeini Ra who also worked on political diamension. He was opposed by many great Shia scholars that Islam doesn't teach politics.

And Imam Khomeini ra opposed them and said Religious and politics is one.

So he struggled on this view.

Every schoolar should come comforward and guide mass to establish Independent Islamic government.

Bro @Hadi5

I believe political is integral part of religion.  Politics by simple definition is

"the way that people living in groups make decisions. Politics is about making agreements between people so that they can live together in groups such as tribes, cities, or countries. ... These people are called politicians. Politicians, and sometimes other people, may get together to form a government."

Religious people is NOT confined to living in religious seminaries.  They are integral part of society to make arrangements between people so they can live together. This is politics.  Be learned religious scholar should be politically active but not necessarily building an Islamic government.

But, under certain circumstances, certain high level Aalim (religious leader) may face a situation that if he is quiet will be more beneficial to his people.  Building an Islamic government without enough supporters will be disaster. 

During Iran Iraq war, there were Shiite Aalims who were in Iraq.  It was touchy issue.  If all Shiite Aalims openly opposed Saddam (la) and what would happen to them?  Some were brutally killed.  Were Iraqis ready to die and follow their Aalims that time against Saddam? The answer was no.

Imam Khomeini was different.  His followers followed him with their souls.  They believed Imam Khomeini (rahmatullah) was guided by Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) in many occasions.  Building an Islamic government was very favorable.

Sometimes, be politically active for a scholar is not necessary building an Islamic government.  But, be busy in exposing the dirty politics from enemies of Islam. 

Edited by layman
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On 10/10/2020 at 8:39 AM, Hadi5 said:

Isn't following Quranic laws obligatory.

What is punishment of theif .

So if you're living in USA or in Israel, it is obligatory for you to struggle for an Islamic Government? 

So in that case what Quran mentions as "fasad fil ard", that becomes permissible for you because your struggle would be for islah and imposition of Islamic laws in any way. Is this what you want?

On 10/10/2020 at 8:39 AM, Hadi5 said:

Is Quran only for reading or applying.

For reading as well as applying on yourself. 

Edited by Cool
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1 hour ago, Hadi5 said:

That is wrong according Khomeini Ra. And it's against Islamic principal that Shia scholar to remain silent on the oppression and deprivation of muslims. 

That too when your own resources is being stolen and used against you.

Yes but most scholars agreed that we should be quiet before the revolution no?

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23 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Yes but most scholars agreed that we should be quiet before the revolution no?

What will be your reaction of your resources are occupied for foreigners and steal it and let you suffer in deprivation.

Now because you are deprived the use you by giving money to use for their benifits and against Islam.

Make pass law's that are against Islam.

But you can't do anything because you are dependent on their money .

Is it wrong to free yourself from this , control and use your own wealth according your wishs.

Hope you will understand.

Brother there are hundreds where they use us for their benefits because we are dependent upon them.

Edited by islam25
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17 minutes ago, islam25 said:

What will be your reaction of your resources are occupied for foreigners and steal it and let you suffer in deprivation

Brother I don’t know my reaction I am asking a simple question but i am not giving my opinion because I am too jahil to have an opinion.

2 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Didn’t most of our scholars adopt a sort of political quietism (I have heard Ayatollah Sistani adopts this sort of quietism but correct me if I’m wrong)? 

This was my question^.

The associated question would be if they deemed making a government permissible.

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11 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Brother I don’t know my reaction I am asking a simple question but i am not giving my opinion because I am too jahil to have an opinion.

This was my question^.

The associated question would be if they deemed making a government permissible.

He is not quite .He gave futwa of jihad against Isis.He even intervened in Two years back Iraq crisis and so on.

But he was not as active as Iran.

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1 hour ago, layman said:

Bro @Hadi5

I believe political is integral part of religion.  Politics by simple definition is

"the way that people living in groups make decisions. Politics is about making agreements between people so that they can live together in groups such as tribes, cities, or countries. ... These people are called politicians. Politicians, and sometimes other people, may get together to form a government."

Religious people is NOT confined to living in religious seminaries.  They are integral part of society to make arrangements between people so they can live together. This is politics.  Be learned religious scholar should be politically active but not necessarily building an Islamic government.

But, under certain circumstances, certain high level Aalim (religious leader) may face a situation that if he is quiet will be more beneficial to his people.  Building an Islamic government without enough supporters will be disaster. 

During Iran Iraq war, there were Shiite Aalims who were in Iraq.  It was touchy issue.  If all Shiite Aalims openly opposed Saddam (la) and what would happen to them?  Some were brutally killed.  Were Iraqis ready to die and follow their Aalims that time against Saddam? The answer was no.

Imam Khomeini was different.  His followers followed him with their souls.  They believed Imam Khomeini (rahmatullah) was guided by Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) in many occasions.  Building an Islamic government was very favorable.

Sometimes, be politically active for a scholar is not necessary building an Islamic government.  But, be busy in exposing the dirty politics from enemies of Islam. 

Brother thanks for your reasonable reply.I think you  understood the subject and it's importance.

Brother we claim to be followers of Ahlebayt as. So we should have insight and will power and conviction to be indipendent in all respect from enmies.

But we see non Muslims and others are much active and achieved there indipendence.

But we despite calling ourselves a followers of Ahlebayt as but we still not free completely.

Were do defect lies.

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41 minutes ago, islam25 said:

He is not quite .He gave futwa of jihad against Isis.He even intervened in Two years back Iraq crisis and so on.

But he was not as active as Iran.

Yes but I don’t think Iraq is a theocracy. Plus he tends to remain quiet and detached from associating with political parties.

Plus I am asking about our ulema of old, whether they believed in establishing a state .

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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20 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Yes but I don’t think Iraq is a theocracy. Plus he tends to remain quiet and detached from associating with political parties.

Plus I am asking about our ulema of old, whether they believed in establishing a state .

 

Mr. I think States are already established.one is to be done that law's should be Islamic.

Prophet saw establishes Islamic laws.

Imam Ali run his khalqfa and acted according to Quran.

So the same thing we have to do today it is not New thing.

It is that you have establish a new thing.But law that is already given by Mohamad saw is to be followed.

 

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28 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Yes but I don’t think Iraq is a theocracy. Plus he tends to remain quiet and detached from associating with political parties.

Plus I am asking about our ulema of old, whether they believed in establishing a state .

 

According to Khomeini Ra a muslim scholar should take part into politics. But politics not for gaining money and position.But to safe interests of Islam.

Just like a head of Shia family will not allow alcohol, indicency , other haram things to enter his home.

A Shia scholar in politics has to do same thing at State level ,that is he won't allow non-Islamic things in his state but promote things that Quran and Ahlebayt as allowed.

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31 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

Brother thanks for your reasonable reply.I think you  understood the subject and it's importance.

Brother we claim to be followers of Ahlebayt as. So we should have insight and will power and conviction to be indipendent in all respect from enmies.

But we see non Muslims and others are much active and achieved there indipendence.

But we despite calling ourselves a followers of Ahlebayt as but we still not free completely.

Were do defect lies.

I agree with you that Muslims must show more struggle.

Try to understand the enemies and their motivations to be active.

Their motivations are power and wealth.  Basically like Fir'aun.  And they believe the worldly realities means everything.  They will use the media for new type of war, misinformation and brain washing.

Venezuela tries to be independent,  see what happen now.  Egypt tried it under Morsi, he was killed.  Bolivia elected President was kicked out after election.  All these because the US and western world don't allow freedom of other countries.  Even China is threatened.  Let alone if Muslims are going to establish and Islamic government.

Please watch the video below on how the West use the media for their war efforts and fool the muslims and their own people.

We have enemies that are going to use everything that are illegal to dominate us so to ensure their dominating power and wealth stay forever with themselves.

 

If we want to establish an independent Islamic Government now, we should be ready to go for war with the West and Zionist regime.  How many muslims are ready?  That is why Arbaeen is needed.

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11 minutes ago, islam25 said:

According to Khomeini Ra a muslim scholar should take part into politics

I don’t think all other scholars agree:

 

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1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

I don’t think all other scholars agree:

 

Brother with due respect I may say he is not correct what he says.

He is against politics because he says politics in current time is based on lying, betrayal and slef intrest.

Even if that is true.

What about those who enter in politics not by lying and betrayal.But based on truth and helping people.

 

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6 hours ago, islam25 said:

Brother with due respect I may say he is not correct what he says.

He is against politics because he says politics in current time is based on lying, betrayal and slef intrest.

Even if that is true.

What about those who enter in politics not by lying and betrayal.But based on truth and helping people.

 

Ok brother. What you said makes sense but I was not arguing with u. I was pointing out our respected ‘ulema e karaam have different views.

 

Wsalam

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