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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shia Sunni unity.

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52 minutes ago, musa shakr said:

Both shia and sunni are my brothers and sisters in Islam. How do we bring more unity between Shia and Sunni?

Real and meaningful unity and bringing both groups closer together can ultimately only be attained by both groups coming closer together in terms of doctrine and religious practise. Otherwise “unity for the sake of unity” is futile.

In many respects it seems as though Sunnis and Shi’ah are following two totally different religions, where Sunnis and Shi’ah are as different as Muslims and Christians are different, despite having some commonalities.

If Shi’ites reevaluated some of their more extreme practises and beliefs and came back closer to mainstream, moderate, orthodox Islam – in other words “Sunni Islam” there would be greater potential for unity.

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1 minute ago, El Cid said:

I'm sure any Shi'a can make the reverse arguement on you as well. You're just saying Sunni Islam is the correct religion in a politically correct way. Being the majority doesn't always make you right.

We have to be honest and recognize the fundamentals of Islam as the starting point.

Shi’ism likes to set itself apart from other Muslims by emphasizing the Ahl al-Bayt.

In orthodox, mainstream Islam, the Ahl al-Bayt possess a very high rank and we can’t love and respect them enough.

Therefore, I have no problem with Shi’ism emphasizing Ahl al-Bayt in a way that makes them stand apart from other Muslims.

But some other practises and beliefs of Shi’ism are quite problematic and are a huge barrier to unity. For example, azadari rituals of self-harm. Even non-Muslims recognize that isn’t normative Islam, not taught by the Quran or from the Prophet’s Sunnah. It’s closer to pagan mourning rituals still practised today by certain cults, including some cults within Roman Catholicism.

Another example is the doctrine of Imams being infallible guides who are superior to the Prophets of Allah (God forbid). I think even a reasonable and objective non-Muslim expert on Islam would agree such a doctrine is alien to the core teaching of Islam based on the Quran and Prophet Muhammad’s Sunnah.

Another example is Shi’i tendency to curse and blaspheme some of the Prophet’s closest and most senior companions, including his own wives رضى الله عنهم. This is a huge barrier to unity.

So if the Shi’ah insist there is absolutely no room to compromise or at least reevaluate some of these things I mentioned, “unity” is a mere fantasy that will never actually be realized.

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Guest Psychological Warfare

Everything else is a distraction. There will be an urge to respond ( to the Charge Topics') /allegation but that will Mask/Undermine the Real Issue.

Following will determine -Who follows Pagan/Jahiliyyah Faith away from What is revealed in the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ). 

The Only issue is in the Fundamental of Faith.  

Only Allah is your wali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor rate while they bow. (5:55)

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

 

Ash hadu anna Amiral Muminina'Aliyyan Waliyyullah (i.e. I testify that the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (ʿalayhi s-salām) is the vicegerent of Allah). Was/is/will be the Only way to Unite ALL Muslims

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067920-the-practical-benefits-of-remembering-karbala/?tab=comments#comment-3307233

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235068343-which-type-of-shirk-is-unforgiveable/?tab=comments#comment-3312920

 

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Umar was furious and beat up his sister, but he stoped by the sight of his sisters blood. The he gave it a thought and decided to convert also. Umar did not convert out of conviction, but out of loyalty to his family. This is all in Ibn Ishaq, so I am not making it up.

Wow so I was lied to when I was taught that he converted after listening to someone reciting Surah Taha and was amazed by the recitation.

Not to mention he threatens to burn down Bibi Fatima’s home in Sahih al Bukhari. Whether or not he actually did it, I think this should be enough for anyone (sunni or shia) to disassociate from him and not pay their respects to him.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

We have to be honest and recognize the fundamentals of Islam as the starting point.

Shi’ism likes to set itself apart from other Muslims by emphasizing the Ahl al-Bayt.

In orthodox, mainstream Islam, the Ahl al-Bayt possess a very high rank and we can’t love and respect them enough.

Therefore, I have no problem with Shi’ism emphasizing Ahl al-Bayt in a way that makes them stand apart from other Muslims.

This is a lie. You love the Ahlul Bayt and also love those who oppressed them. That is the essential hypocrisy of the Sunni faith.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

But some other practises and beliefs of Shi’ism are quite problematic and are a huge barrier to unity. For example, azadari rituals of self-harm. Even non-Muslims recognize that isn’t normative Islam, not taught by the Quran or from the Prophet’s Sunnah. It’s closer to pagan mourning rituals still practised today by certain cults, including some cults within Roman Catholicism.

Why is my azadari a barrier to unity? What business is of yours whether I inflict self-harm or not?

Why do non-Muslims matter? In another post, you have said (paraphrasing) that they dont matter.

Your real problem with azadari is that it calls out the sins of the people you consider 'sahaba'.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Another example is the doctrine of Imams being infallible guides who are superior to the Prophets of Allah (God forbid). I think even a reasonable and objective non-Muslim expert on Islam would agree such a doctrine is alien to the core teaching of Islam based on the Quran and Prophet Muhammad’s Sunnah.

Does the Quran and authentic Sunnah explicitly state that there can be no infallible guides?

If you can believe in the infallibility of sahaba, then why can't we believe in the infallibility of Imams? Before you over-react and say that you don't believe in the infallibility of sahaba, please confirm Caliph Umar sinned gravely at Hudaibiya and according to you did not repent; Khalid bin Walid sinned gravely by murdering Malik bin Nuwayra nd raping his wife; Caliph Abu sinned gravely by forgiving Khalid going against Quran and Sunnah; confirm UMM Aisha sinned gravely at Siffin; confirm Muawiya sinned gravely at Siffin. If you can say YES to all of the above, then let's discuss unity.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Another example is Shi’i tendency to curse and blaspheme some of the Prophet’s closest and most senior companions, including his own wives رضى الله عنهم. This is a huge barrier to unity.

How is cursing anyone other than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) considered blasphemy. If it is, then please confirm Muawiya is the foremost blasphemer - remember narrations from another topic.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

So if the Shi’ah insist there is absolutely no room to compromise or at least reevaluate some of these things I mentioned, “unity” is a mere fantasy that will never actually be realized.

When you decide to answer the call of "muwada0fil-kurba" then you have my permission to begin discussing "unity".

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1 minute ago, 313_Waiter said:

Wow so I was lied to when I was taught that he converted after listening to someone reciting Surah Taha and was amazed by the recitation.

yeah buddy. Read my blog - "The Spy Who Conned Them"

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11 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Wow so I was lied to when I was taught that he converted after listening to someone reciting Surah Taha and was amazed by the recitation.

Not to mention he threatens to burn down Bibi Fatima’s home in Sahih al Bukhari. Whether or not he actually did it, I think this should be enough for anyone (sunni or shia) to disassociate from him and not pay their respects to him.

Don't forget other Sunni propaganda where the Prophet(S.W) would allegedly pray to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to give him Umar as a Muslim follower. This isn't over-revering at all. 

 

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

 

Another example is the doctrine of Imams being infallible guides who are superior to the Prophets of Allah (God forbid). 

Instead you would say a man who has buried his daughter alive in the past, threatened to kill the Prophet(S.W) of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Worshipped Idols and drank wine is worthy of this: 

Uqbah bin Aamir narrated that the Messenger of Allaah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “If there was to be a Prophet after me, it would have been Umar bin Al Khattaab.”

Saheeh At Tirmidhi – Vol 6, Hadith 3686

Edited by El Cid
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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

But some other practises and beliefs of Shi’ism are quite problematic and are a huge barrier to unity.

The Sunni practices of praising Abu Sufyan(la) and Muawiya(la) and calling them "radiAllah" are quite problematic. Not only do they praise and revere them they are ready to declare someone who rightfully curses them a kafir. So as long as Sunnis do not correct these awfully misguided practices unity can't be achieved 

Edited by ahlulbayt_72
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Even though we have our differences, we can't afford to not be united. Not just Shias and Sunnis, but also all Muslims and Christians. It's like you're arguing with someone when you know there's a wild vicious grizzly bear in the area. You have to put the differences aside in that moment and address the situation. Right now everyone is divided (just the way satan likes it) and we're being bombarded from all sides by our enemies. 

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

If Shi’ites reevaluated some of their more extreme practises and beliefs and came back closer to mainstream, moderate, orthodox Islam – in other words “Sunni Islam” there would be greater potential for unity.

It's the shi'a who runs after unity everytime. Sunnis won't come forward for unity until we compromise on our core beliefs, after which one will not remain shi'a. 

Co-existence is the only option and works with every religion/sect. 

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

It's the shi'a who runs after unity everytime. Sunnis won't come forward for unity until we compromise on our core beliefs, after which one will not remain shi'a. 

Co-existence is the only option and works with every religion/sect. 

Yes, the unity our ulema and marajae speak of is political unity, not unity based on compromising beliefs.

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I think both sects should simply be allowed to preach and practice their own beliefs etc. It's simple, we just need to agree to disagree. 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Yes, the unity our ulema and marajae speak of is political unity, not unity based on compromising beliefs.

Well, I don’t think Sunni–Shia political unity is possible, given the stark differences between the sects, regardless of what the IRI’s clerics may say.

@Cherub786 alone illustrates the folly of Sunni–Shia political unity. I don’t know why some Shia have this suicidal inferiority complex vs. Sunnis.

You can’t even entertain the notion of unity, however defined, with a sect that hates one’s very being and existence. I’m neither for nor against the Shia, but in general minorities should segregate themselves or form their own institutions, even state(s), given that the oppressive majority will always seek to subvert and ultimately exterminate the oppressed minority. For example, Pakistan and India should probably be broken up into ethnic and religious states, with a pan-Shia entity gaining control of Shia communities, while Kashmir should become an independent state. The IRI should change its focus from “Islamic ‘unity’” to Shia unity and attempt to annex Shia portions of Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc. Until then, I don’t think the IRI can honestly claim to defend (Shia) Islamic interests better than anyone else.

Edited by Northwest
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16 minutes ago, Northwest said:

Well, I don’t think Sunni–Shia political unity is possible, given the stark differences between the sects, regardless of what the IRI’s clerics may say.

@Cherub786 alone illustrates the folly of Sunni–Shia political unity. I don’t know why some Shia have this suicidal inferiority complex vs. Sunnis.

You can’t even entertain the notion of unity, however defined, with a sect that hates one’s very being and existence. I’m neither for nor against the Shia, but in general minorities should segregate themselves or form their own institutions, even state(s), given that the oppressive majority will always seek to subvert and ultimately exterminate the oppressed minority. For example, Pakistan and India should probably be broken up into ethnic and religious states, with a pan-Shia entity gaining control of Shia communities, while Kashmir should become an independent state. The IRI should change its focus from “Islamic ‘unity’” to Shia unity and attempt to annex Shia portions of Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc. Until then, I don’t think the IRI can honestly claim to defend (Shia) Islamic interests better than anyone else.

Its not inferiority complex - its peace for the pleasure of Allah. We don't go around trying to force our beliefs on Sunnis because haq never forces batil.

Batil on the other hand tries to justify its existence by forcing everyone to become like it. Cherry's post is an example of this.

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Salams everyone,

This is my opinion. Yes Shias nor sunnis are going to compromise their beliefs so this option is already out. One way of seeing it is regardless there's always going to be differences, Surah 49:13, "O you mankind, surely We created you of a male and a female, and we have made you races and tribes that you may get mutually acquainted. Surely the most honorable among you in the Providence of Allah are the most pious; surely Allah is Ever-Knowing, Ever-Cognizant", this verse refers to differences that God has created within the human race so that we can better no one another, we can go out and learn about other cultures and peoples and because of this we are able to get mutually acquainted. There maybe differences within Islam for God to see how we react to these differences. God may want us to get mutually acquainted with our sunni brethren and because of these differences in ideologies we are able to question one another and learn about each other. 

One of the great ullama, I think it was Sayed Sistani that said (along of the lines of), Do not see sunnis as your brothers but as yourslves. Why are you people so against being unified. Alright maybe not in our beliefs or interpretations of certain things, but in general because we are Muslims. Ruhollah Khomenin also says "We muslims are bickering over whether to fold or unfold our arms during prayer while the enemy is devising ways of cutting them off". Isn't this evident enough of the unity we need between each other. We all have a common enemy and this enemy wants us to fight each, yet we are so blind to see it. 

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We can look at it differently - Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Muawiya could not be more different but they reached a political compromise and established unity.

If we equate Shiahs with Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Sunnis with Muawiya, then we can also establish unity by political compromise. 

Now of course Muawiya broke almost all clauses of the treaty but Sunnis would never do that of course...but they do revere Muawiya...hmmm

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7 minutes ago, El Cid said:

I'm sorry but since when do Shi'as have such hate in their hearts for Sunnis and have a complex as you eloquently put? The people who seem to have a hate filled inferiority complex is Sunnis themselves. Let me give you an example. I grew up in a Sunni majority country and in one of the major cities of said country. I also grew up in an affluent environment(Why is this relevant? Because people wrongly think that only the lower class of third world countries are victims of ignorance and lack control). So this also meant going to elite schools. I've been hearing "Shi'a Kafir" from the mouths of Sunni children since Grade 5. How would 10 year old kids properly understand Shi'a history and come to a conclusion that Shi'as are kafir? It's obvious that hatred for the Shi'a is ingrained into Sunni children from the start by their parents/relatives which is why they end up like brother Cherub in the future. When I changed schools because of this, I found the same thoughts amongst Sunni children in two other affluent schools as well. Also some other interesting things those kids said to me: Shi'as threw stones at Prophet(S.W) at Taif. No idea how that one made sense. I'll also give you another example, Once I was at a park. There was a man on his phone with his child next to him demanding his attention. The child said "Dad, I'm not a dirty Shi'a. Why are you treating me like one?". The guy got some looks in the park from some people and some amused glances from other people. He just grabbed his daughter and left abruptly. I'm sure other Shi'as growing up in Sunni majority countries have had similar experiences to mine where children won't talk to you nor play with you because Shi'as are Kafir as brilliantly fed by their parents. 

Now you sound like George Wallace and a defender of the Jim Crow era within the United States. But guess what Mr.Wallace? It did not work. Google Rosewood Massacre where a segregated black town was lynched. And you're basically just admitting that the Jahaliyah of Sunnis makes them oppressive to exterminate minorities. I wonder why countries like Sweden or Norway don't lynch Muslims or try to exterminate them instead of trying to give them a better life.. I mean given your logic they are a majority albeit not oppressive. This is why so many people oppose immigration from Sunni countries and the whole notion of "When Sunnis are in minority, they demand equality. When they are in majority, they demand your head or your submission." exists within our political atmosphere which is pretty much hundred percent true given your thoughts on the matter which I'm sure is shared by your brothers. 

Wasalam.

 

One more thing I forgot to add. Sunni children are not only fed to hate Shi'a but they are also given proper training by their parents to identify who is a Shi'a or not. How did these people know I belonged to a Shi'a family? They read my Syed XYZ name, identified my name shared similarities with the Household((عليه السلام)) of Prophet(S.W) as instructed by their Trainers and then the whole Anti Shia movement began.

Edited by El Cid
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11 minutes ago, El Cid said:

I'm sorry but since when do Shi'as have such hate in their hearts for Sunnis and have a complex as you eloquently put?

I never posited that. I was actually arguing for separation on the basis of the Sunni majority’s inveterate hatred of the Shia minority. I was arguing that certain Shias, including the IRI’s elite, are wrongly arguing for political unity with Sunnis at all costs, even though Sunnis never return the favour. I think this stance illustrates insecurity on the part of some Shia, who should be standing up for themselves rather than seeking political unity with their diehard enemies. Maybe you misunderstood me and thought I was criticising Shias. Just the opposite.

Quote

The people who seem to have a hate filled inferiority complex is Sunnis themselves. Let me give you an example. I grew up in a Sunni majority country and in one of the major cities of said country. I also grew up in an affluent environment(Why is this relevant? Because people wrongly think that only the lower class of third world countries are victims of ignorance and lack control). So this also meant going to elite schools. I've been hearing "Shi'a Kafir" from the mouths of Sunni children since Grade 5. How would 10 year old kids properly understand Shi'a history and come to a conclusion that Shi'as are kafir? It's obvious that hatred for the Shi'a is ingrained into Sunni children from the start by their parents/relatives which is why they end up like brother Cherub in the future.

Exactly.

Quote

When I changed schools because of this, I found the same thoughts amongst Sunni children in two other affluent schools as well. Also some other interesting things those kids said to me: Shi'as threw stones at Prophet(S.W) at Taif. No idea how that one made sense. I'll also give you another example, Once I was at a park. There was a man on his phone with his child next to him demanding his attention. The child said "Dad, I'm not a dirty Shi'a. Why are you treating me like one?". The guy got some looks in the park from some people and some amused glances from other people. He just grabbed his daughter and left abruptly. I'm sure other Shi'as growing up in Sunni majority countries have had similar experiences to mine where children won't talk to you nor play with you because Shi'as are Kafir as brilliantly fed by their parents.

Ditto.

Quote

Now you sound like George Wallace and a defender of the Jim Crow era within the United States. But guess what Mr.Wallace? It did not work. Google Rosewood Massacre where a segregated black town was lynched. And you're basically just admitting that the Jahaliyah of Sunnis makes them oppressive to exterminate minorities.

Yes, I am.

Quote

I wonder why countries like Sweden or Norway don't lynch Muslims or try to exterminate them instead of trying to give them a better life...I mean given your logic they are a majority albeit not oppressive. This is why so many people oppose immigration from Sunni countries and the whole notion of "When Sunnis are in minority, they demand equality. When they are in majority, they demand your head or your submission." exists within our political atmosphere which is pretty much hundred percent true given your thoughts on the matter which I'm sure is shared by your brothers. 

Yes, this is one of the many reasons as to why I oppose massive immigration, particularly from Sunni countries. (I currently reside in Scandinavia.)

Edited by Northwest
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12 hours ago, musa shakr said:

Both shia and sunni are my brothers and sisters in Islam. How do we bring more unity between Shia and Sunni?

To have such a unity where our religion become one is when we have infallible chosen leader by God, among us. But because we can not have that currently, at least following Qur'an moral conduct, we should respect and allow each other practice their religion in peace and take care of each other.

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11 minutes ago, Northwest said:

I never posited that. Maybe you misunderstood me and thought I was criticising Shias. Just the opposite.

 

It's kind of hard not to misunderstand when your entire opening statement begins with: "I don’t know why some Shia have this suicidal inferiority complex vs. Sunnis."

1 hour ago, Northwest said:

 

The IRI should change its focus from “Islamic ‘unity’” to Shia unity and attempt to annex Shia portions of Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc. Until then, I don’t think the IRI can honestly claim to defend (Shia) Islamic interests better than anyone else.

I also found your segregation idea a major folly as history has already demostrated that it does not work and why should people living somewhere where they have a life suddenly be forced to pack up, leave their comfortable lives and start dirt poor in some other region. It's basically oppression through segregation. Though this idea of Iran annexing Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, areas of Pakistan(You didn't say that but someone else once did when they made the same arguement as you once upon a time) is pretty ludicrous and is basically going around picking fights. The concept of an Islamic unity is Islamic itself. If Sunnis are against it, it already proves they are out of the fold of Islam already. 

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1 hour ago, Northwest said:

The IRI should change its focus from “Islamic ‘unity’” to Shia unity and attempt to annex Shia portions of Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, etc.

This sounds good about making a Shi'a empire but it is far from possible especially when countries are already fighting for every inch of land. IRI already has too many enemies and even stating such intentions would be problematic. 

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There's a line in Urdu that says

اپنے مذہب کو چھوڑو نہیں اور دوسرے کے مذہب کو چھیڑو نہیں  

Which basically means that everyone keeps their beliefs and practices to themselves and other's beliefs and practices are none of their business

And I think that is the only way for muslims to co-exist peacefully.

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Guest In Truth we seek light

 

Okay. Look guys I am gonna be frank with you. 

As sunni myself I can never accept Shism based upon 1 thing? and that one thing is the biggest sin on earth? Major Shirk commited by the Shia blatantly and by Allah it's against the fundation of Islam and there can't be any compromise with anyone who practices major shirk. 

Now some of you will say what MAJOR SHIRK do the Shia commit? Be Patient I will tell you what major shirk they commit. 

 

1. Raising their hands up and calling out the Mahdi in Dua? As if he was God and can hear them and answer their prayers? That my friend is Major shirk? Do you think anyone else then Allah can hear your dua's? you have made equals to Allah thinking you are acceptable as a believer?

2. Calling out the Prophet in Duas and asking him of health and weatlh as if he can hear your duas? This is another major shirk ladies and gents? The prophet is nothing more then a man? Again you have made another equals to Allah in worship. This is major sin that can't be unnoticed. 

3. Grave worship is another form of shirk that can't be acceptable 

There is more but for now I mentioned the major reasons and wallahi there is nothing bigger then major shirk being commited blatantly as if it was their right to commit this shirk. 

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1 hour ago, Guest In Truth we seek light said:

There is more but for now I mentioned the major reasons and wallahi there is nothing bigger then major shirk being commited blatantly as if it was their right to commit this shirk. 

This is one of the primary reasons as to why I remain somewhat aversive to religion and am “on the fence” in regard to reversion. Sunnis in particular want to kill Shias for committing shirk yet are perfectly okay with economic injustice (capitalism), class-based genocide, homosexuality, feminism, Western imperialism, fascism, Zionism, bourgeois decadence, etc. Shias are less extreme than Sunnis but also hold that anyone who doesn’t practice the fine points of Islam is going to Hell, regardless of personal, fitrah-based morality. One would think that maintaining a pure fitrah and intending/acting on its basis would be sufficient for one to be considered a candidate for admission to Jannah, regardless of whether the individual adheres to the fine points of doctrine. Spiritual arrogance, especially intense among Sunnis, leads to mass murder. Religion is used to endorse genocidal policies because it is considered better to “kill the body, save the soul” (and society) and thereby prevent corruption, misguidance, etc. This approach can then be used to legitimise any and all form of exploitation, murder, etc., targeting not just Shias, but also anyone who is deemed an apostate, polytheist, atheist, etc. For the same reason I am wary of the IRI as well as the Sunni regimes. Uncritical, mindless deference is always dangerous. For the same reason I also detest Western degeneracy, which, although “atheist,” is really another form of religion, albeit hedonistic and nihilistic (Satanic). I detest this as much as I detest similar conformity and mass murder in the name of religion.

Edited by Northwest
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1 hour ago, Guest In Truth we seek light said:

1. Raising their hands up and calling out the Mahdi in Dua? As if he was God and can hear them and answer their prayers? That my friend is Major shirk? Do you think anyone else then Allah can hear your dua's? you have made equals to Allah thinking you are acceptable as a believer?

If you refer to merits of Imams (عليه السلام) in shia hadiths, you'll find out this is not shirk at all.

1 hour ago, Guest In Truth we seek light said:

2. Calling out the Prophet in Duas and asking him of health and weatlh as if he can hear your duas? This is another major shirk ladies and gents? The prophet is nothing more then a man? Again you have made another equals to Allah in worship. This is major sin that can't be unnoticed. 

 

1 hour ago, Guest In Truth we seek light said:

3. Grave worship is another form of shirk that can't be acceptable 

Then why are you a sunni? Salafis are all new. How about classical sunnis and Sufis?

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