Question for Pakistanis.

[El Cid 776]

Salam everyone.

I remember back in the 2012-2014 era of Shiachat, I use to read a lot of posters from Pakistan saying "India and Pakistan should've never separated. Pakistan was a mistake." With everything that is going on in India. Do you still believe your statement and stand by it If so, what are your justifications for such a stance with the rise of prejudice and Hindu extremism?

[ShiaMan14 7,137]

12 hours ago, El Cid said:

Salam everyone.

I remember back in the 2012-2014 era of Shiachat, I use to read a lot of posters from Pakistan saying "India and Pakistan should've never separated. Pakistan was a mistake." With everything that is going on in India. Do you still believe your statement and stand by it If so, what are your justifications for such a stance with the rise of prejudice and Hindu extremism?

I, for one, would rather get killed by Muslim bullet than a Hindu stick.

[El Cid 776]

1 minute ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I, for one, would rather get killed by Muslim bullet than a Hindu stick.

I am still waiting for them to answer but I guess they are all gone. 

[ShiaMan14 7,137]

2 minutes ago, El Cid said:

I am still waiting for them to answer but I guess they are all gone. 

We should look at the entire 70+ year history to decide rather than "recent" events.

[El Cid 776]

57 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

We should look at the entire 70+ year history to decide rather than "recent" events.

I don't know what their basis was. They would always quote this and say Look at India's accomplishments, growth, economy. We could've benefited from this etc instead of separating. Lemme try to dig up some topics from the past

 

Edited September 30 by El Cid

[ahlulbayt_72 70]

Partition was definitely for the benefit of Muslims but it couldn't be achieved the way it was supposed to be. Many Muslim majority states couldn't join Pakistan. Kashmir issue still remains unresolved. There was no land link between east and west pakistan. 

Also Pakistan did not end up becoming what it's Founders and the muslims who made sacrifices for it had envisioned.

[Cherub786 432]

19 hours ago, El Cid said:

Salam everyone.

I remember back in the 2012-2014 era of Shiachat, I use to read a lot of posters from Pakistan saying "India and Pakistan should've never separated. Pakistan was a mistake." With everything that is going on in India. Do you still believe your statement and stand by it If so, what are your justifications for such a stance with the rise of prejudice and Hindu extremism?

It depends what your priorities are. If you prioritize religious freedom, political freedom, and freedom of speech, the creation of Pakistan was a blunder.

If you prioritize Muslim military power, the fact that Pakistan is a military powerful, nuclear armed state is an impressive achievement.

In my view, the creation of Pakistan was good in principle, but tragically, it was created by the wrong type of people and has been in the hands of the wrong type of people since its birth.

Therefore, if it was possible to put an end to Pakistan and make it part of India again, I would say that is preferable for me.

As for the rise of Hindutva, what are we really looking at? Muslims are unpopular and generally hated by the general population of India especially because of the media. That’s not a big deal for me. Muslims are occasionally lynched, there are occasionally riots and pogroms targeting Muslims. Well, if Pakistan wasn’t created Muslims in the regions (west Punjab, east Bengal, NWFP, Sindh, Balochistan, Kashmir) which today constitute Pakistan and Bangladesh would still never be vulnerable to this.

It could even be argued that in a united India Muslims would be stronger to prevent right wing Hindu parties and politicians dominating the country centrally.

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

5 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

As for the rise of Hindutva, what are we really looking at? Muslims are unpopular and generally hated by the general population of India especially because of the media.

This is not true. There has been considerable rise in hatred against Muslims but these are mostly BJP and it's organizations. It did influence common public but saying general population hate Muslims is not true at all. Infact, there are so many Hindu activists and celebrities against Modi regime and their fascism. 

5 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Therefore, if it was possible to put an end to Pakistan and make it part of India again, I would say that is preferable for me.

There would be more polarization and more bloodshed if this happens. 

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

For sunnis - Pakistan is heaven, India is good.

For Shias - India is very good, Pakistan is disaster. 

[Diaz 1,163]

1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

For sunnis - Pakistan is heaven, India is good.

For Shias - India is very good, Pakistan is disaster. 

Why tho? 

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

1 minute ago, Diaz said:

Why tho? 

Is it not obvious? 

1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

For sunnis - Pakistan is heaven, India is good

Sunnis in Pakistan has whole country and shariah law implemented. They aren't killed like shias.

In India, they sometimes face prejudice but nothing major in context of things. 

1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

For Shias - India is very good, Pakistan is disaster. 

In India, shi'as have got more freedom and less hate than what sunnis get. Indian shias practice their religion freely even though they are around 13 percent of total Muslim population and 1 percent of national population.

I don't need to tell about condition of shias in Pakistan. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect all Momineen. 

[Guest random110]

1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

For sunnis - Pakistan is heaven, India is good.

For Shias - India is very good, Pakistan is disaster. 

 

I am actually curious to know why Indians have this misconception about Pakistani Shiites that we somehow consider "India to be good and Pakistan as a disaster" being a Pakistani Shia myself, I have not come across a single Pakistani Shia (in my family/friends/Mosques or anywhere) who as expressed such feelings. Yet it seems that for a lot of Indians it is a foregone conclusion. Shiites in Pakistan have a lot of issues and it is far from being an idea environment, but by large we have enjoyed all the freedoms as our sunni counterparts to practice our religion.

With all due respect, you are right you do no need to tell us about conditions of Shiites in Pakistan because that is not a subject you know much about. 

 

 

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

@starlight I would like to understand your disagreement.

[El Cid 776]

5 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Is it not obvious? 

Sunnis in Pakistan has whole country and shariah law implemented. They aren't killed like shias.

In India, they sometimes face prejudice but nothing major in context of things. 

In India, shi'as have got more freedom and less hate than what sunnis get. Indian shias practice their religion freely even though they are around 13 percent of total Muslim population and 1 percent of national population.

I don't need to tell about condition of shias in Pakistan. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect all Momineen. 

So Shi'as in India are basically seen as the "Model minority Muslims" ?

[Cherub786 432]

6 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

This is not true. There has been considerable rise in hatred against Muslims but these are mostly BJP and it's organizations. It did influence common public but saying general population hate Muslims is not true at all. Infact, there are so many Hindu activists and celebrities against Modi regime and their fascism. 

BJP has won in landslides in both previous elections. Modi is the “Butcher of Gujarat” but won in landslide victories in the past two elections, despite his thinly veiled anti-Muslim bigotry. What does this say about the broader Indian society? Obviously they too must be inherently anti-Muslim.

As for some liberal Hindu activists and celebrities who are opposed to Modi and Hindutva fascism, they are an insignificant minority of elitists. Elitists often live in another world, a bubble of their own, because they don’t have to interact with or live in the real world where things aren’t as sanitized as they are used to.

Truth be told, many of these liberal Hindu activists aren’t really sympathetic to Muslims in their heart of hearts. Their opposition to Modi and Hindutva fascism is for other reasons, but they will speak about sympathy to Muslims as a moral justification.

The INC, for example, are peddlers of soft Hindutva. When it suits many of these political parties in India that are officially secular, they will side against Muslims and sell us out, as Nitish Kumar did in Bihar.

It is often said that Dalits are natural allies of us Muslims. But look how RSS has been so successful in their drive of recruiting Dalits to their cause. Dalit vote was a significant factor in the recent landslide victories for BJP.

More fundamentally, the “Babasaheb” of Dalits, Ambedkar, was inherently an anti-Muslim figure, as reflected in his own writings.

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

14 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

BJP has won in landslides in both previous elections. Modi is the “Butcher of Gujarat” but won in landslide victories in the past two elections, despite his thinly veiled anti-Muslim bigotry. What does this say about the broader Indian society? Obviously they too must be inherently anti-Muslim.

Landslide victory doesn't mean majority of Indians voting for him. From those who voted in 2019 Loksabha elections, BJP got 37 percent of votes (or 45 percent considering alliance). That means majority of voters actually didn't vote for 'BJP'. There is another thing to understand is the lack of options. In a huge country like India, it's a shame that we only had two parties and hence two Prime Ministerial candidates. One was Rahul Gandhi of INC whose image is tarnished as immature 'pappu' who would not be able to handle nation. There was no third option for common non-muslim. You do not expect a Hindu to take into account Gujarat riots and vote based on it. Many dismissed it as a one time thing which will not be repeated others were of the opinion that no such thing happened in his first term so won't happen again. 

Also, Modi was not that famous for winning elections for his second term until Pulwama attack happened and Modi ordered attacking Pakistani borders in revenge. That was the deal. He hit home run considering his opponent's party when in power didn't took any action against Pakistan after 26/11 attack. 

14 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Elitists often live in another world, a bubble of their own, because they don’t have to interact with or live in the real world where things aren’t as sanitized as they are used to.

I agree. Majority of them remain silent. However, I see many celebrities speaking up now and they are then targeted in some case. 

14 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Truth be told, many of these liberal Hindu activists aren’t really sympathetic to Muslims in their heart of hearts. Their opposition to Modi and Hindutva fascism is for other reasons, but they will speak about sympathy to Muslims as a moral justification.

I have said this before especially for congress. They are opportunist. But they are not representative of all activists. 

14 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

It is often said that Dalits are natural allies of us Muslims. But look how RSS has been so successful in their drive of recruiting Dalits to their cause. Dalit vote was a significant factor in the recent landslide victories for BJP.

Not sure how you bring RSS angle with Dalits. Infact they were majority among non-Muslims who opposed CAA (law considered as anti-Muslim) and took rallies across the country. 

Let's stick to the topic please. 

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

15 hours ago, El Cid said:

So Shi'as in India are basically seen as the "Model minority Muslims" ?

No. Shi'as are only seen as better than sunnis and their offshoots. 

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

20 hours ago, Guest random110 said:

 

I am actually curious to know why Indians have this misconception about Pakistani Shiites that we somehow consider "India to be good and Pakistan as a disaster" being a Pakistani Shia myself, I have not come across a single Pakistani Shia (in my family/friends/Mosques or anywhere) who as expressed such feelings. Yet it seems that for a lot of Indians it is a foregone conclusion. Shiites in Pakistan have a lot of issues and it is far from being an idea environment, but by large we have enjoyed all the freedoms as our sunni counterparts to practice our religion.

I sincerely hope that was true brother. But how many blast have happened in Shi'a juloos, Imambargah, funerals, Mosques. How many of eminent shi'a personalities like doctors, engineers, businessman, zakireen, Nauhakhwan, politicians, common people are targeted and killed. What is the fear when shi'a zaereen wants to cross Pak-Iran border in their bus and go for ziyarah? What are sipahe sahaba, lashkare jhangvi, alqaeda, Taliban, etc. ? What have they done to shi'as over decades? What is your state policy regarding these terrorists organizations? What was the 30k strong rally few days ago? 

Is there anything like that happening with Indian shi'as currently? 

[Guest Just saying]

On 10/1/2020 at 1:03 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

I sincerely hope that was true brother. But how many blast have happened in Shi'a juloos, Imambargah, funerals, Mosques. How many of eminent shi'a personalities like doctors, engineers, businessman, zakireen, Nauhakhwan, politicians, common people are targeted and killed. What is the fear when shi'a zaereen wants to cross Pak-Iran border in their bus and go for ziyarah? What are sipahe sahaba, lashkare jhangvi, alqaeda, Taliban, etc. ? What have they done to shi'as over decades? What is your state policy regarding these terrorists organizations? What was the 30k strong rally few days ago? 

Is there anything like that happening with Indian shi'as currently? 

Mashallah I pray no Hindu fanatic will kill you for eating their mothers wether you are Sunni shia or sushi.

In Pakistan you can do that Sunni shia or sushi.

is their Anything like that happening in Pakistan? Would a Sunni kill you for eating beef?

Ridiculous argument.

[Sirius_Bright 4,341]

2 hours ago, Guest Just saying said:

Mashallah I pray no Hindu fanatic will kill you for eating their mothers wether you are Sunni shia or sushi.

In Pakistan you can do that Sunni shia or sushi.

is their Anything like that happening in Pakistan? Would a Sunni kill you for eating beef?

Ridiculous argument.

Any person with unbiased mind can understand how much this made sense. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect all Mo'mineen. 

[Ashvazdanghe 7,955]

Photos: "Islam and Humanity" conference in Srinagar, India

https://en.abna24.com/news//photos-islam-and-humanity-conference-in-srinagar-india_1077557.html

October 12, 2020 - 8:33 AM News Code : 1077557 Source : ABNA24Link: 

 

AhlulBayt News Agency (ABNA): "Islam and Humanity" conference held in Srinagar, India. At the conference, the efforts of people active in the fight against Corona were appreciated.