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In the Name of God بسم الله

Reliability of the Talmud

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Al Salam Alaikum, 

The Talmud, also known as the Gemara and the Oral Law, or Oral Torah, is central for most of Jewish doctrines, beliefs and practices. They see this very long set of books as the only way to understand the actual written Torah, which is what we're know as the Old Testament as well. 

The Talmud is basically a compilation of discussions and debates concerning all kinds of topics, by hundreds or thousands of Rabbis, and these texts are often even given precedence over the actual Torah. 

I have personally debated with Jews online about this, and have developed the following beliefs, that I would like to share here. There are not many Jewish visitors on this site, but who knows? Maybe some day somebody will pop up and debate this issue with me here on shiachat.

So the conclusions that I came up with are:

1 - the rabbis that compiled the Talmud do not have divine authority or proof that is comparable with Moses and all the other Prophets. 

2 - most Jews, including the scholars, are not able to list the names of those scholars, while even less being able to talk about the reputation, accomplishments, background, story, reliability of them. 

3 - i fail to see why those Rabbis who were sitting mostly in Babylon would be any more reliable than the average scholar of today. 

4 - there is no clear proof from the Torah that a prediction was made by Moses (عليه السلام), that God's Law will find its oral equivalent in a time and setting like Babylon. This seems to be purely the scholars themselves coming up with that claim. 

Thanks

 

Edited by Allah Seeker
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24 minutes ago, El Cid said:

There use to be some Jewish shiachat posters on here about 6-8 years ago lol. I wonder where they have all gone. 

As for your topic, Some very excellent insights brother. If you can, please expand on them for the sake of knowledge.

That's pretty much the limit of my knowledge on the topic dear brother :D thanks for your kind words and exemplary noble manners. I asked many Jews on YouTube on different channels of the most famous rabbis to share a list of the Talmud authors that are linked to autobiographies, but it was in vain so far.  Some of them got especially upset with me when I told them that they didn't even know whom they were following.

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15 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

That's pretty much the limit of my knowledge on the topic dear brother :D thanks for your kind words and exemplary noble manners. I asked many Jews on YouTube on different channels of the most famous rabbis to share a list of the Talmud authors that are linked to autobiographies, but it was in vain so far.  Some of them got especially upset with me when I told them that they didn't even know whom they were following.

My pleasure and thank you for your kind words as well. 

https://www.interfaith.org/community/forums/judaism/

https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/messianic-judaism.34/

These websites seem to have more active participants which you are seeking to engage with. Why not make an account there and post a topic? Do share with us the link so we can observe and may also join up if the discussion is engaging.

Wasalam.

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16 minutes ago, El Cid said:

My pleasure and thank you for your kind words as well. 

https://www.interfaith.org/community/forums/judaism/

https://www.thehebrewcafe.com/forum/

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/messianic-judaism.34/

These websites seem to have more active participants which you are seeking to engage with. Why not make an account there and post a topic? Do share with us the link so we can observe and may also join up if the discussion is engaging.

Wasalam.

Wow that's amazing masha Allah :D I was planning to take a break from writing on the computer and phone for a while, but now I might actually do what you suggested. This is really exciting brother and I have always hoped for a shiachat field trip where some members go to other forums and discussion sites together. I can not thank you enough and as soon as  the action begins I will publically inform you here inshalah. Thank you again, and your help has been instrumental in making my chest feel excitement in a good way . Yay

wa Alaikum al Salaam warahmat Allah dear brother 

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4 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Wow that's amazing masha Allah :D I was planning to take a break from writing on the computer and phone for a while, but now I might actually do what you suggested. This is really exciting brother and I have always hoped for a shiachat field trip where some members go to other forums and discussion sites together. I can not thank you enough and as soon as  the action begins I will publically inform you here inshalah. Thank you again, and your help has been instrumental in making my chest feel excitement in a good way . Yay

wa Alaikum al Salaam warahmat Allah dear brother 

You're welcome, brother. I hope you get the answers and responses you want for your interesting topic. I'm sure you'll be able to convince them of your position given your brilliant insights.

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6 hours ago, El Cid said:

You're welcome, brother. I hope you get the answers and responses you want for your interesting topic. I'm sure you'll be able to convince them of your position given your brilliant insights.

Thank you dear brother for your noble words, im honoured. 

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:sign_offtopic: @Muhammed Ali

Why don't you talk straight and say "Allah Seeker believes the earth is flat! Don't respect him and his opinions, he is nuts"

Maybe you can actually say something that relates to the topic, instead, or maybe your can't, so you just try to defame me, which is obvious.

Sad

 

Edited by Allah Seeker
Typing while walking messes things up sometimes
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2 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

Thank you dear brother for your noble words, im honoured. 

You're welcome, brother.

6 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

As a flat Earth theorist, how can you find anything at all reliable? All the texts you read could be fabrications. 

Also I don't really understand why everyone is after this brother for his beliefs. So what if he believes that the Earth is Flat, round or a square? As long as he isn't forcing his beliefs onto people or throwing Flat Earth Neighborhood Block parties on the forum, does it really matter or is it anyone else's business? Shi'aism is freedom of thought to question and understand. We criticize Sunnis and say they are oppressing us when they come and make fun of our belief system. Yet in principle we're following their same approach in ridiculing someone in public like this. This doesn't seem like the Sunnah we know and love but seems like the Sunnah of Abu Jahl(LA) and party where they would follow people with Muslims in particular and just mock them for whatever they were doing. If he believes in something you find wild, you can't discredit everything he says otherwise you're no better than the aforementioned parties above.

The second thing I'll say is Just love one another. Be kind with one another. There are only 200 million Shi'as on this planet with our population dwindling downwards everyday due to oppression. Who knows tommorow who will be the target of whom. It could be a brother or sister on this forum God forbid. How would you feel when you learn about what happened to them and then go back and read these posts where you said hateful things to them. If you can't do it out of human decency or love for the Shi'a. Then do it for yourself. According to Hadith, two things will be very helpful on the day of judgement. One of them is good Akhlaq where you treat everyone with mercy and compassion including those who will never do the same to you. The second is spreading joy in the life of other people. 

"The one who disgraces a Muslim, I will disgrace him 70 times. - The one who loves a Mo'min (believer) because of Me, Angels will greet him in both the worlds. In this world, secretly. And in the Hereafter, openly. " - Hadith Qudsi, Chapter 12.

"And if it is true that all creatures are mine, why are you cruel towards them?" - Hadith Qudsi, Chapter 24.

"O, Son of Adam! if you don't care for your neighbors as you care for your children, I will not see you, I will not accept your (good) deeds, and I will not accept your supplications." Hadith Qudsi, Chapter 35.

Wasalam.

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@El Cid

I somehow wish that everybody was honorable like you, however God decided to make people like you the tiny minority, while I see the rest are hell-bound. That's the way that God created it (as per the qur'an), and may God make us accept the good and the bad that He has created :sign_merci:

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13 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

@El Cid

I somehow wish that everybody was honorable like you, however God decided to make people like you the tiny minority, while I see the rest are hell-bound. That's the way that God created it (as per the qur'an), and may God make us accept the good and the bad that He has created :sign_merci:

Thank you for your kind words, brother.

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15 hours ago, El Cid said:

Also I don't really understand why everyone is after this brother for his beliefs. So what if he believes that the Earth is Flat, round or a square? A

I haven't insulted or mocked him at all. I have interacted with him outside of the forum and have never insulted him. I have seen other people do it and I don't approve of it. We should treat him well and be kind to him. He is a nice person that has different views to mine.

I am asking the question because I am genuinely intrigued. If he thinks that a global conspiracy involving millions of people and sources of information is possible, then why not believe that relatively smaller conspiracies where the texts that he uses are also fabrications? My fear is that faulty reasoning can lead to harmful beliefs. 

Anyhow it might be better if I don't ask again.

@Allah Seeker

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29 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Most people will go to hell forever? 

That's what I understood from the the quran yes. I plan to answer your questions later as im invited to an old friend alhamdulilah and probably will be out of shiachat service for the night. Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions earlier on.  

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I haven't insulted or mocked him at all. I have interacted with him outside of the forum and have never insulted him. I have seen other people do it and I don't approve of it. We should treat him well and be kind to him. He is a nice person that has different views to mine.

I am asking the question because I am genuinely intrigued. If he thinks that a global conspiracy involving millions of people and sources of information is possible, then why not believe that relatively smaller conspiracies where the texts that he uses are also fabrications? My fear is that faulty reasoning can lead to harmful beliefs. 

Anyhow it might be better if I don't ask again.

@Allah Seeker

What you were basically saying and implying was that because the OP believes in Flat earth. He is devoid of intellectual capability of discerning any information in this case being the Talmud. It's no different from those other users. A person can be wrong in many cases but he could be right in some cases. Refute his claims in the current topic using the information on why you think the texts might be false. Don't refute him by making claims of other topics from his past.

1 hour ago, Allah Seeker said:

Thanks I love you my brother in God

Anytime, friend. Peace and love.

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

What you were basically saying and implying was that because the OP believes in Flat earth. He is devoid of intellectual capability of discerning any information in this case being the Talmud. It's no different from those other users. A person can be wrong in many cases but he could be right in some cases. Refute his claims in the current topic using the information on why you think the texts might be false. Don't refute him by making claims of other topics from his past.

I am making no claims about what he wrote in the OP, and it was not my intention to make any inferences on what he wrote. Rather I was using his stance in the OP to highlight the flaws in how he thinks about certain other subjects. I was pointing out his inconsistency. You will see these conspiracy theorists who are inconsistent in how they deal with differing sources of information.

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2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am making no claims about what he wrote in the OP, and it was not my intention to make any inferences on what he wrote. Rather I was using his stance in the OP to highlight the flaws in how he thinks about certain other subjects. I was pointing out his inconsistency. You will see these conspiracy theorists who are inconsistent in how they deal with differing sources of information.

You're just using the "miracle of reinterpretation" to justify your original words and masquerade your intentions as something "curious" instead. You know what you said in response to him above and you can see exactly what it implies. 

23 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

 

Maybe you can actually say something that relates to the topic, instead, or maybe your can't, so you just try to defame me, which is obvious.

Sad

 

 Br. Muhammad Ali. ^ You can also see that because of your words to the original poster, you insulted the OP and saddened him where he thinks you're just trying to defame him. If you had any humble-ness, instead of defending your position with stubborn-ness. You can instead choose to apologize over your words which may or may not have been perceived as harmful to the OP keeping in accordance with the Hadith Qudsi I mentioned above where the order from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to clearly have mercy on one another and to love another as if You loved your own child. If you can't do that, Perhaps edit "Shia Islam" out of your profile till you reach that level.

Edited by El Cid
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3 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am making no claims about what he wrote in the OP, and it was not my intention to make any inferences on what he wrote. Rather I was using his stance in the OP to highlight the flaws in how he thinks about certain other subjects. I was pointing out his inconsistency. You will see these conspiracy theorists who are inconsistent in how they deal with differing sources of information.

I have to agree. Someone who believes the Earth is flat can’t be taken seriously and loses all credibility.

 

 

Edited by Cherub786
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The Qur'an backs up one verse from the Talmud quite clearly 5:32 - even if they aren't exactly the same, Allah says that it was revealed to the Banu Isra'il and it isn't found in any of the books revealed to their prophets. 

So I don't really have an issue with there being some of the hadith of the prophet Musa (a) in there, but most of it clearly isn't revealed oral law in the way that the Jews try to make out.

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19 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

God, I gotta read up on Judaism. I just learned yesterday that they don't believe in a heaven or a hell, just some recreated Earth after the day of judgement (if I've got it right).

Many Rabbinical Jews believe in reincarnation as well.

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39 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

God, I gotta read up on Judaism. I just learned yesterday that they don't believe in a heaven or a hell, just some recreated Earth after the day of judgement (if I've got it right).

Judaism is very diverse in beliefs. That’s because it’s emphasis is on praxis and not doctrine. So some Jews do believe in the afterlife, some believe in bodily resurrection (it’s explicitly taught in the Book of Daniel), others believe in reincarnation, and some believe when you die that’s it.

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On 9/30/2020 at 6:18 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

I am asking the question because I am genuinely intrigued. If he thinks that a global conspiracy involving millions of people and sources of information is possible, then why not believe that relatively smaller conspiracies where the texts that he uses are also fabrications? My fear is that faulty reasoning can lead to harmful beliefs. 

Anyhow it might be better if I don't ask again.

Reading your words again, I realized that I don't actually understand what you mean. Are you saying that if I believe in conspiracies, I can not believe in the reliability of any text such as the Torah Bible and Quran? I don't get it. 

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On 9/30/2020 at 10:58 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

I am making no claims about what he wrote in the OP, and it was not my intention to make any inferences on what he wrote. Rather I was using his stance in the OP to highlight the flaws in how he thinks about certain other subjects. I was pointing out his inconsistency. You will see these conspiracy theorists who are inconsistent in how they deal with differing sources of information.

You are using my stance towards Talmud to point out my flaws in other issues supposedly? How does what I wrote here in my original post and title relate to the discussion about the geometric shape of earth? Can you explain this please in clear words?

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Posted (edited)
On 9/30/2020 at 3:58 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

these conspiracy theorists who are inconsistent in how they deal with differing sources of information.

this is almost insulting, because those "sources" include the Quran. And based on what are you talking about inconsistencies? What is your point? How does it relate to this subject and improve this thread that is talking about technicalities of the Talmud? If you want to make a topic about "inconsistencies, fallacies and delusional conspiracies of Allah Seeker", then go ahead. But don't pollute this thread any further!
 

[Edit]

Edited by Hameedeh
[Edit] was off-topic. PM will be/was sent to you.
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Posted (edited)
On 10/1/2020 at 2:19 AM, Cherub786 said:

I have to agree. Someone who believes the Earth is flat can’t be taken seriously and loses all credibility.

 

 

doesn't surprise me coming from you. This is takfiri mentality at its best. Anybody who deosn't share some stupid irrelevant belief, unlike a belief like what's said in the shehada gets abused, defamed and shunned out of any respectful existence. This is not the way of Islam, this is not the way of the prophet, this is the way of taghut and pharaoh. And we know where they end up!

Additionally, people like you guys don't care about actions of people. You judge people by what they think they know, and not what they do. So, because somebody thinks that an object is a certain geometric shape, you will actually judge this person as a bad person. But the truth is that actions matter most, and being disrespectful and condescending, is bad. And does lead to hell.

So instead of pretending like you are so credible, and the other person isn't, you better pray that you don't go to hell, and get cursed every day until you do. Cursed by these people that you abuse.

Edited by Allah Seeker
just some extra points
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On 9/30/2020 at 10:58 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

highlight the flaws in how he thinks about certain other subjects. I was pointing out his inconsistency

again, I want to point out to you and everyone else. Don't waste your time pointing out supposed flaws of your 'brother' in public, and ESPECIALLY if this is not even relevant to what is being discussed. If you want to prove to others that I am a liar, then bring evidence! But this cowardly indirect way of talking like teen-age girls that like to gossip isn't my thing! Man up or go away! And besides .. why on earth would you want to highlight flaws of someone about other subjects? What is wrong with you? Do you think you're God?!?!? Think about your own flaws!!!! Leave people in peace and stop bullying. The dua of the bullied is always heard!

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On 10/1/2020 at 2:28 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

The Qur'an backs up one verse from the Talmud quite clearly 5:32 - even if they aren't exactly the same, Allah says that it was revealed to the Banu Isra'il and it isn't found in any of the books revealed to their prophets. 

So I don't really have an issue with there being some of the hadith of the prophet Musa (a) in there, but most of it clearly isn't revealed oral law in the way that the Jews try to make out.

Isn't 5:32 based on the rule outlined in the Torah?

I'm really no expert of the Talmud, but from what I understand, the scholars in Babylon did not say hadiths of Musa (عليه السلام), but instead they made up their own rules, claiming that these are the spiritually descended keys to understand the Torah. So I was hoping to find out more about who exactly those Authors are, their life stories, and who said what exactly. Even if there are a thousand ones, I'd like to read about the most famous 5 let's say. Who were they? How did they live? Why should we believe them, if we were Jews?

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1 hour ago, El Cid said:

XLrSWOXk8hXSYWlYrhGXbYnJVqrVqib-XP9nvV5mJust don't say such things around your brethren.

Even if a person says he does not believe in God and any prophet, the sunnah of the Prophet is clear on this. Respect and decency! 

If anybody wants any credibility, it's with action, and asking ourselves if we are DOING good. 

 

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On 10/1/2020 at 2:34 AM, BleedKnee said:

God, I gotta read up on Judaism. I just learned yesterday that they don't believe in a heaven or a hell, just some recreated Earth after the day of judgement (if I've got it right).

Well, they have the same word jahanam like us, and I tried to find out what exactly they believe, but it was very complicated. I think they believe in a next life, and also some form of Jannah, and that non-Jews have animal souls, and they are the only ones with human souls, that's written in the Talmud I think, and has become mainstream. I am not sure

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9 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

Isn't 5:32 based on the rule outlined in the Torah?

I'm really no expert of the Talmud, but from what I understand, the scholars in Babylon did not say hadiths of Musa (عليه السلام), but instead they made up their own rules, claiming that these are the spiritually descended keys to understand the Torah. So I was hoping to find out more about who exactly those Authors are, their life stories, and who said what exactly. Even if there are a thousand ones, I'd like to read about the most famous 5 let's say. Who were they? How did they live? Why should we believe them, if we were Jews?

I'm not really sure either to be honest

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