Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Query about a Hadith

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

As-salāmu ʿalaykum
I came across this hadith about Mushaf Fatima(sa)
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/40/5
And I am a little confused about it. Doesn’t this make it a revealed book? 
 

I previously discussed the Mushaf Fatimah

 

@ShiaMan14 objected to it being classified as a Scripture, he said:

Quote

We are in complete agreement that the Quran is the final Heavenly Scripture. Furthermore, I am sure we agree that Torah, Zubur, Injeel and Quran are the only Heavenly Books.

As for the Mushaf-e-Fatima, the contents are up for discussion but rest assured it was not and is not QURAN. Its a book no different to Sahifa-e-Sajadiya in my opinion.

But pay attention carefully to the wording of the Hadith you quoted regarding Mushaf Fatimah:

فِيهَا كُلُّ مَا يَحْتَاجُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ وَلَيْسَ مِنْ قَضِيَّةٍ إِلا وَهِيَ فِيهَا حَتَّى أَرْشُ الْخَدْشِ

It contains all that people may need. There is no case for there is a rule in it. In it there is the law to settle the compensation for a scratch caused to a person.”

In other words, Mushaf Fatimah is a book containing legislation. It is a whole new Shari’ah.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

See if you actually read the tradition you will see that The Imam(عليه السلام) is talking about the Jam'ia

Quote

Then they asked the Imam ((عليه السلام).) about al-Jami‘a. The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, “It is a parchment that is seventy yards long with a width of hide like that of the leg of a huge camel. It contains all that people may need. 

 

The Imam(عليه السلام) actually mentions 3 types of texts in this chapter

1. Al Jafr(Book of all previous and future events)

2. Al Jami'a(The text being spoken about above)

3. Mushaf e Fatima(sa)

* According to the tradition, it was as written:

 

"Jibril would comfort her soul. Jibril would inform her about her father and his place and of the future events and about what will happen to her children. At the same time Ali ((عليه السلام).) would write all of them down and thus is Mushaf of Fatima ((عليه السلام).).”

 

 

*Also keep in mind, anything that contridicts the Qur'an is rejected

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
56 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

See if you actually read the tradition you will see that The Imam(عليه السلام) is talking about the Jam'ia

 

The Imam(عليه السلام) actually mentions 3 types of texts in this chapter

1. Al Jafr(Book of all previous and future events)

2. Al Jami'a(The text being spoken about above)

3. Mushaf e Fatima(sa)

* According to the tradition, it was as written:

 

"Jibril would comfort her soul. Jibril would inform her about her father and his place and of the future events and about what will happen to her children. At the same time Ali ((عليه السلام).) would write all of them down and thus is Mushaf of Fatima ((عليه السلام).).”

 

 

*Also keep in mind, anything that contridicts the Qur'an is rejected

 

I am talking about 3. Even if the Mushaf is not about Shari'a, it still sounds like a revealed book to me. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 minutes ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

I am talking about 3. Even if the Mushaf is not about Shari'a, it still sounds like a revealed book to me. 

Like I said, anything that contridicts the Qu'ran can be rejected

 

And I don't usually go by Shiekh Al Behbudi (رضي الله عنه) gradings, but he has classified all of these as weak 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I previously discussed the Mushaf Fatimah

 

@ShiaMan14 objected to it being classified as a Scripture, he said:

But pay attention carefully to the wording of the Hadith you quoted regarding Mushaf Fatimah:

فِيهَا كُلُّ مَا يَحْتَاجُ النَّاسُ إِلَيْهِ وَلَيْسَ مِنْ قَضِيَّةٍ إِلا وَهِيَ فِيهَا حَتَّى أَرْشُ الْخَدْشِ

It contains all that people may need. There is no case for there is a rule in it. In it there is the law to settle the compensation for a scratch caused to a person.”

In other words, Mushaf Fatimah is a book containing legislation. It is a whole new Shari’ah.

Completely wrong and dare I say deceptive AGAIN.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn Ri’ab from abu ‘Ubaydah who has said that the people from our group asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) about Jafr and the Imam ((عليه السلام).) said the following. “It is the skin of a bull which is full of knowledge.”

Then they asked the Imam ((عليه السلام).) about al-Jami‘a. The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, “It is a parchment that is seventy yards long with a width of hide like that of the leg of a huge camel. It contains all that people may need. There is no case for there is a rule in it. In it there is the law to settle the compensation for a scratch caused to a person.”

The narrator has said that he asked the Imams ((عليه السلام).), “What is Mushaf of Fatima?” The Imam ((عليه السلام).) waited for quite a while. Then he said, “You ask about what you really mean and what you do not mean. Fatima ((عليه السلام).) lived after the Messenger of Allah for seventy-five days. She was severely depressed because of the death of her father. Jibril ((عليه السلام).) would come to provide her solace because of the death of her father. Jibril would comfort her soul. Jibril would inform her about her father and his place and of the future events and about what will happen to her children. At the same time Ali ((عليه السلام).) would write all of them down and thus is Mushaf of Fatima ((عليه السلام).).”

You read a line about Al-Jami'a and applied it to the Mushaf. The constant lies and deception have to stop!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
32 minutes ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

I am talking about 3. Even if the Mushaf is not about Shari'a, it still sounds like a revealed book to me. 

No brother.

How is Al-Jami'a any different from any risalah of a marja (explanation of sharia in detail)? It doesn't say there is a new sharia. It simple states it has details of all sharia rules.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
20 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The narrator has said that he asked the Imams ((عليه السلام).), “What is Mushaf of Fatima?” The Imam ((عليه السلام).) waited for quite a while. Then he said, “You ask about what you really mean and what you do not mean. Fatima ((عليه السلام).) lived after the Messenger of Allah for seventy-five days. She was severely depressed because of the death of her father. Jibril ((عليه السلام).) would come to provide her solace because of the death of her father. Jibril would comfort her soul. Jibril would inform her about her father and his place and of the future events and about what will happen to her children. At the same time Ali ((عليه السلام).) would write all of them down and thus is Mushaf of Fatima ((عليه السلام).).”

I am only talking about this part of the hadith. Only the Mushaf of Fatima (sa).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
33 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Like I said, anything that contridicts the Qu'ran can be rejected

 

And I don't usually go by Shiekh Al Behbudi (رضي الله عنه) gradings, but he has classified all of these as weak 

I don't think we can reject this hadith. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
2 hours ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

I am talking about 3. Even if the Mushaf is not about Shari'a, it still sounds like a revealed book to me. 

Salam,

Jibril (a) came to inform the Prophet (s) about many events that would take place, had they been written down would that then make them scripture? 

This is basically information about future events and seeing as how this book is not with us, being sceptical about this narration doesn't affect one's belief.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Completely wrong and dare I say deceptive AGAIN.

You read a line about Al-Jami'a and applied it to the Mushaf. The constant lies and deception have to stop!!!

What difference does it make whether you call it Mushaf Fatimah or al-Jami’ah? The name is not important, the content is important. It is supposedly a scripture that contains a Shari’ah, rulings for every matter right down to the qisas for a scratch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Salam,

Jibril (a) came to inform the Prophet (s) about many events that would take place, had they been written down would that then make them scripture? 

This is basically information about future events and seeing as how this book is not with us, being sceptical about this narration doesn't affect one's belief.

According to your narrations there is at least one prophecy we know is contained in Mushaf Fatimah: No descendant of Imam Hasan رضى الله عنه will ever become a king. Of course, though this is the one prophecy we know is in Mushaf Fatimah, it is also plainly a false prophecy, as there were plenty of Hasanid kings in Muslim history, like the Idrisids of Morocco and the present Hashemite dynasty ruling Jordan.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
22 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

According to your narrations there is at least one prophecy we know is contained in Mushaf Fatimah: No descendant of Imam Hasan رضى الله عنه will ever become a king. Of course, though this is the one prophecy we know is in Mushaf Fatimah, it is also plainly a false prophecy, as there were plenty of Hasanid kings in Muslim history, like the Idrisids of Morocco and the present Hashemite dynasty ruling Jordan.

I think I've heard some of the extremists using this as 'proof' that they aren't really descended from Imam Hasan (a) - which is kind of odd because the extremists often reject the idea that Jibril (a) was the angel of revelation because they claim that this would mean that he taught the Prophet (s) which for some reason is problematic in their beliefs. So they must apply the same logic to Imam 'Ali (a) which would lead them to reject this narration.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Salam,

Jibril (a) came to inform the Prophet (s) about many events that would take place, had they been written down would that then make them scripture? 

This is basically information about future events and seeing as how this book is not with us, being sceptical about this narration doesn't affect one's belief.

Wa'alikum Assalam

Brother the thing is Jibrael (عليه السلام) informed about those events to the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), who was a recipient of divine revelation. 

I know this matter might not be of great importance but it is a bit unsettling for me especially because it is in one of our most authentic narrations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
3 minutes ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

Wa'alikum Assalam

Brother the thing is Jibrael (عليه السلام) informed about those events to the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), who was a recipient of divine revelation. 

I know this matter might not be of great importance but it is a bit unsettling for me especially because it is in one of our most authentic narrations.

Sayeda Maryam wasn't a prophet but she was also informed about the future.

I agree that there are a lot of weird unacceptable narrations, but on the scale of things this one isn't that bad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
34 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

What difference does it make whether you call it Mushaf Fatimah or al-Jami’ah? The name is not important, the content is important. It is supposedly a scripture that contains a Shari’ah, rulings for every matter right down to the qisas for a scratch.

There is a difference. There is nothing(in my knowledge) that suggests Al-Jamia was revealed. It could be a book of one of the Imams (عليه السلام) or the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). It could be a collection of prophetic narrations. Or seeing as Imams were inheritors of the knowledge of all Prophets, it could be a compilation of their books maybe

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

What difference does it make whether you call it Mushaf Fatimah or al-Jami’ah?.

errr, they are different book. You dont call an apple an orange simply because they are both fruit.

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The name is not important, the content is important. It is supposedly a scripture that contains a Shari’ah, rulings for every matter right down to the qisas for a scratch.

So? How is that different from any book of jurisprudence? Nowhere did it say these are new rulings or rulings different from Islamic sharia.

1 hour ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

Wa'alikum Assalam

Brother the thing is Jibrael (عليه السلام) informed about those events to the Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), who was a recipient of divine revelation. 

I know this matter might not be of great importance but it is a bit unsettling for me especially because it is in one of our most authentic narrations.

Jibrael can inspire non-prophets too - no big deal. Just ask Cherry.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...