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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muslims depress me

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Guest Something

Salam everyone, 

As the title says I feel empty and depressed. I feel Islam is such a beautiful religion yet people assume so many wrong things within the religion.

Shia rituals that are pretty much useless. Sexism and denying the truth that women are equal to men (read carefully) in the matter of rights and sexual desires. Only men being stakeholders of opinions and priests of the whole religion. Women being seen as awrah and their existence should be shadowed due to mens erotic fantasies being activated all the time or that females can’t fast without permission of their husbands in case he wants to be intimate with her. Traditional (old) views of society and what is right and wrong. Everything is haram. 
 

I don’t believe in this anymore and wish for new people (men and women) to have opinions that reflects the world we live in today. The dominant person in shia fiqh is Sistani - the man is almost a century old. We need someone that can think clear and keep people see the beauty in this religion for what it really is.  Because nothing makes sense to me anymore. The traditional madhab is not applicable in this day and time whilst islam is. Then why do people love hadiths so much? Most of them being weak and not even applicable to anything? Is there a shia scholar with progressive views that don’t think everyone will go to hell for simply breathing in the wrong way?

Thanks for hearing me out.

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Guest Molana Laddan

I think you are a victim of people who have culture mixed in Islam. Problem is post Usool and Furoo of Islam, everybody thinks differently of things Islamic. In reality it’s not all that complicated. It’s deep for sure, but the layers remain same. 

In order to clear all the grease of incorrect Islamic interpretations that you may have picked up by seeing repressive people, I would highly suggest to read this short but very interesting book(let). 

It would give you a proper but completely new vision into Islam, Allah, His love for us, and how we can project that love back. 

Love: The Heart of Islamic Spirituality https://www.amazon.com/dp/1904934315
 

Also visit this site often, I suspect some among SC post the questions here .. 
http://www.askthesheikh.com/category/social-issues/

 

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Guest Something
55 minutes ago, Guest Molana Laddan said:

I think you are a victim of people who have culture mixed in Islam. Problem is post Usool and Furoo of Islam, everybody thinks differently of things Islamic. In reality it’s not all that complicated. It’s deep for sure, but the layers remain same. 

In order to clear all the grease of incorrect Islamic interpretations that you may have picked up by seeing repressive people, I would highly suggest to read this short but very interesting book(let). 

It would give you a proper but completely new vision into Islam, Allah, His love for us, and how we can project that love back. 

Love: The Heart of Islamic Spirituality https://www.amazon.com/dp/1904934315
 

Also visit this site often, I suspect some among SC post the questions here .. 
http://www.askthesheikh.com/category/social-issues/

 

Thank you! Finally someone with another perspective - on reddit people would have called me kafir for being depressed. I feel Islam is a tool to make our life great and make sense of our existence not to make us depressed and feel lonely and abused. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn’t need us we need him. I will look at it whenever I get the time to but most definitely will. Thanks again. Do you know any progressive scholars?

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Guest Molana Laddan

You are welcome.

Islam is progressive in its nature. Specially the version of Islam of Prophet and Ahlulbayt AS that we follow (Shia), the whole institutionalization of Fiqh keeps us fresh like a river water.

I believe what you are looking for is scholars who present Islam in progressive terms, who are knowledgeable of prevalent leanings of society and can give you Islamic answers in your lingo. 
 

I don’t believe you are seeking scholars who are progressive to change in inherent teachings of Islam (scholars can’t invent anything of their own), because really scholars, or anybody else has no authority to change Islam when it’s been locked and sealed by the Holy Prophet Muhammad saww. 
 

Meaning gay marriages can’t ever be considered legal in Islam even when all humans start quacking like penguins. 
 

I found all of the scholars contributing to AsktheSheikh.com and https://www.al-islam.org/ask very progressive in the right sense. Go through their questions and answers and you would find a whole lot that would relate to you iA. 

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16 hours ago, Guest Something said:

Sexism and denying the truth that women are equal to men (read carefully) in the matter of rights and sexual desires. Only men being stakeholders of opinions and priests of the whole religion. Women being seen as awrah and their existence should be shadowed due to mens erotic fantasies being activated all the time or that females can’t fast without permission of their husbands in case he wants to be intimate with her. Traditional (old) views of society and what is right and wrong. Everything is haram. 

It seems you have an issue with the traditional patriarchal conception of Islam.

When you say “everything is haram” this is obviously a hyperbolic statement. Actually, more things are halal than haram.

But this statement reveals that you consider it problematic that there are some things which Muslims traditionally consider haram. Perhaps you can list a few examples.

Regarding the allegation of men being the only stakeholders and priests of the Religion, this statement has to be deconstructed and analyzed carefully.

Firstly, there is no priesthood in Islam, and the gate of learning and academic scholarship should, at least in theory, be open to every Muslim, male and female alike.

But why in practice is the field of Islamic scholarship so male dominated? There are many factors that explain this, one of them is that women themselves aren’t as motivated or interested in acquiring expertise in Islamic sciences.

Women being awrah and encouraged to remain in the seclusion of their houses is definitely an Islamic concept. It’s firmly ingrained in the holy Quran and the Prophet’s Sunnah. There’s no getting around this short of actually changing Islam, altering the Quran itself. Then Islam won’t be Islam anymore, but you will have invented a new religion.

So then is your problem with how Muslims practise Islam or with Islam itself? Maybe it's not Muslims that are depressing you, but Islam itself is depressing you?

Edited by Cherub786
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Guest Gamila
24 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

It seems you have an issue with the traditional patriarchal conception of Islam.

When you say “everything is haram” this is obviously a hyperbolic statement. Actually, more things are halal than haram.

But this statement reveals that you consider it problematic that there are some things which Muslims traditionally consider haram. Perhaps you can list a few examples.

Regarding the allegation of men being the only stakeholders and priests of the Religion, this statement has to be deconstructed and analyzed carefully.

Firstly, there is no priesthood in Islam, and the gate of learning and academic scholarship should, at least in theory, be open to every Muslim, male and female alike.

But why in practice is the field of Islamic scholarship so male dominated? There are many factors that explain this, one of them is that women themselves aren’t as motivated or interested in acquiring expertise in Islamic sciences.

Women being awrah and encouraged to remain in the seclusion of their houses is definitely an Islamic concept. It’s firmly ingrained in the holy Quran and the Prophet’s Sunnah. There’s no getting around this short of actually changing Islam, altering the Quran itself. Then Islam won’t be Islam anymore, but you will have invented a new religion.

So then is your problem with how Muslims practise Islam or with Islam itself? Maybe it's not Muslims that are depressing you, but Islam itself is depressing you?

Sorry but this is what I mean! No, islamic teaching who? This is tradition not islam!!!  Omg, this makes me so sad.

You said it, there is no preisthood. I can get my own conclusion from my own study and follow it. You telling me it’s wrong or that I will go to hell won’t affect me but wouldn’t be nice to have more progressive people in this community that are not bound to traditions and patriarchy. Islam is the religion of the free and the vicrorious NOT men. Traditions should die with time and the real religion should be revealed with all its beauty. I’ve stopped believing in what you said even though I believed it before. I’ve my truth and you have yours!

 

 

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Traditions should die with time and the real religion should be revealed with all its beauty. I’ve stopped believing in what you said even though I believed it before. I’ve my truth and you have yours

So you are saying that "Old time" Islam is dead and should be interpreted by our modern times?

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Guest Gamila
2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

So you are saying that "Old time" Islam is dead and should be interpreted by our modern times?

Old times is not correct necessarily. Slavery? Patriarchy? Please be openminded and see religion As a tool to better our lives instead of abusing others with it. Islam is beautiful and muslims are ruining it. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Gamila said:

Old times is not correct necessarily. Slavery? Patriarchy? Please be openminded and see religion As a tool to better our lives instead of abusing others with it. Islam is beautiful and muslims are ruining it. 

There are Islamic principles that can not be changed and is not bound by time, among them is the principles and particular authority God gave to men over woman.

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As a tool to better our lives instead of abusing others with it. Islam is beautiful and muslims are ruining it. 

The problem is exactly to abuse the laws that have been with us 1000 years, not that they are abusing us.

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Guest Gamila
2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

There are Islamic principles that can not be changed and is not bound by time, among them is the principles and particular authority God gave to men over woman.

The problem is exactly to abuse the laws that have been with us 1000 years, not that they are abusing us.

No, this is not true. Most of the time we see ijmaa on something from ages ago that easily can change. 
 

1. hadiths are mostly untrue, falsified and can not be used as they’ve been narrated hundreds of years after the death of the prophet.

2. only and only Allahs words is what we should follow - shia/sunni, this or that. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the Quran and how we interpret it. Using the right tools/thesaurus and an open mind will clear so many things out for us.

3. Nobody is critical of anything anymore. Yes he is wearing a turban. Yes, he has studied for ages. No, he’s not necessarily concluding on something true. The truth is something we should all be able to find despite our knowledge. If something doesn't seem right, we should keep on looking for the truth and follow this “shak” or doubt. Nobody is a true believer if they’ve never doubted. You’ll then only be a follower not a believer. We should not be afraid to go against scholars and point out where we think they might be wrong. We should be able to debate and give them food of thought. They’re superior to us because we pay them to be.

4. i believe that most things that are not clear in the Quran is meant for us to deeply think with ourselves what is best for us in given situations. Beauty is sujective and should be measures according to time and place. Also there should be nothing but the Quran’s words to follow.

5. back to hadith and patriarchy. When you study something with a closed mind or a specific mindset you also interpret with this mindset. For instance the word ‘Nisa’ was adopted as women when that is in fact untrue. The word of female is “untha”. Rajul is not male - “thakar” is male. Then why do we use these words in everyday arabic to refere to men and women? Because of the aya: “Al rejal gawameen a’-ala al nisa”. Witch means “the one that are capable will help the less capable” a very rough translation.
Both rejal and nisa is words that can be applicable for both sexes yet people have forever used this to refer to men being superior to women or men is the head of the house and the leaders. It has even affected the everyday arab language. 
 

So yes! It can be interpreted and be seen in a very patriarchy way if the right eyes with the right mind sees it. And since nobody is thinking for themselves but only following scholars we will forever be in this endless circle of patriarchy as we raise our sons to believe this is the truth.

6. people make haram what is halal. This is because of “shak” so scholars put “ihtiyat” on top of it. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Shak is the work of shaytan. In fact everything Allah didn’t say is shaytan’s work - because we worship Allah and only Allah.

Very sad, but very true.

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5 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Women being awrah and encouraged to remain in the seclusion of their houses is definitely an Islamic concept.

For example, the verse in the Qur’an where it says for the wives of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to remain in their homes. Of course, Islam doesn’t say you should keep your wife as a prisoner but the husband has been given a level of authority where his permission is necessary to leave the house. This hierarchical relationship within the household exists within all 3 Abrahamic faiths. I don’t think this can be reconciled with modernity, nor can it be reconciled with modern feminism. So I believe we need to re-evaluate ourselves and look at the Qur’an as a timeless book, not a book that has to adhere to modern conceptions of morality.

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2 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

What matters is the Quran and how we interpret it.

 

2 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

hadiths are mostly untrue, falsified and can not be used

 

2 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

there should be nothing but the Quran’s words to follow.

This is not the correct approach, you’re seeking to define the Quran based on what your ego wants. 

2 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

the word ‘Nisa’ was adopted as women when that is in fact untrue.

According to who and what? The Arabic dictionaries define "نساء" as women, referring to [33:32] نساء is understood to refer to a specific faction of women, i.e نساء النبي.

O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other of the women. If you are the owners of piety, then be not soft in speech, (do not speak to men appealingly, lest he in whose heart is a disease (temptation, lust) desires. And speak a somber (serious) word.

يَا نِسَاء النَّبِيِّ لَسْتُنَّ كَأَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَاء إِنِ اتَّقَيْتُنَّ فَلَا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ وَقُلْنَ قَوْلًا مَّعْرُوفًا ﴿٣٢﴾

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4 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

No, this is not true. Most of the time we see ijmaa on something from ages ago that easily can change. 
 

1. hadiths are mostly untrue, falsified and can not be used as they’ve been narrated hundreds of years after the death of the prophet.

2. only and only Allahs words is what we should follow - shia/sunni, this or that. It doesn’t matter. What matters is the Quran and how we interpret it. Using the right tools/thesaurus and an open mind will clear so many things out for us.

3. Nobody is critical of anything anymore. Yes he is wearing a turban. Yes, he has studied for ages. No, he’s not necessarily concluding on something true. The truth is something we should all be able to find despite our knowledge. If something doesn't seem right, we should keep on looking for the truth and follow this “shak” or doubt. Nobody is a true believer if they’ve never doubted. You’ll then only be a follower not a believer. We should not be afraid to go against scholars and point out where we think they might be wrong. We should be able to debate and give them food of thought. They’re superior to us because we pay them to be.

4. i believe that most things that are not clear in the Quran is meant for us to deeply think with ourselves what is best for us in given situations. Beauty is sujective and should be measures according to time and place. Also there should be nothing but the Quran’s words to follow.

5. back to hadith and patriarchy. When you study something with a closed mind or a specific mindset you also interpret with this mindset. For instance the word ‘Nisa’ was adopted as women when that is in fact untrue. The word of female is “untha”. Rajul is not male - “thakar” is male. Then why do we use these words in everyday arabic to refere to men and women? Because of the aya: “Al rejal gawameen a’-ala al nisa”. Witch means “the one that are capable will help the less capable” a very rough translation.
Both rejal and nisa is words that can be applicable for both sexes yet people have forever used this to refer to men being superior to women or men is the head of the house and the leaders. It has even affected the everyday arab language. 
 

So yes! It can be interpreted and be seen in a very patriarchy way if the right eyes with the right mind sees it. And since nobody is thinking for themselves but only following scholars we will forever be in this endless circle of patriarchy as we raise our sons to believe this is the truth.

6. people make haram what is halal. This is because of “shak” so scholars put “ihtiyat” on top of it. Shouldn’t even be allowed. Shak is the work of shaytan. In fact everything Allah didn’t say is shaytan’s work - because we worship Allah and only Allah.

Very sad, but very true.

1. Our laws are not based on some untrue hadiths. Yes let assume 20% are true, so what? Your reasoning does now valid for negligence of narrations.

2. If you follow the Qur'an, then you come to verses where you can not neglect the Prophet Sunnah. 

3. There is reason why it is wajib to seek knowledge, so we can find the truth and remove doubts.

4. We can deeply ponder over the Quranic verses and get some truth of it, but we can not say that we need to limit it only to this particular way and neglect what Prophet (saws) and Imams (عليه السلام) said about it.

5. This is far fetched interpretation, something that you want to insist to differ on subject that you don't like, so let's interpret the verse according to what please us. 

 

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Guest Gamila
2 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

 

 

This is not the correct approach, you’re seeking to define the Quran based on what your ego wants. 

According to who and what? The Arabic dictionaries define "نساء" as women, referring to [33:32] نساء is understood to refer to a specific faction of women, i.e نساء النبي.

O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other of the women. If you are the owners of piety, then be not soft in speech, (do not speak to men appealingly, lest he in whose heart is a disease (temptation, lust) desires. And speak a somber (serious) word.

يَا نِسَاء النَّبِيِّ لَسْتُنَّ كَأَحَدٍ مِّنَ النِّسَاء إِنِ اتَّقَيْتُنَّ فَلَا تَخْضَعْنَ بِالْقَوْلِ فَيَطْمَعَ الَّذِي فِي قَلْبِهِ مَرَضٌ وَقُلْنَ قَوْلًا مَّعْرُوفًا ﴿٣٢﴾

Kamal Al Haydari.

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Guest Gamila
2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

1. Our laws are not based on some untrue hadiths. Yes let assume 20% are true, so what? Your reasoning does now valid for negligence of narrations.

2. If you follow the Qur'an, then you come to verses where you can not neglect the Prophet Sunnah. 

3. There is reason why it is wajib to seek knowledge, so we can find the truth and remove doubts.

4. We can deeply ponder over the Quranic verses and get some truth of it, but we can not say that we need to limit it only to this particular way and neglect what Prophet (saws) and Imams (عليه السلام) said about it.

5. This is far fetched interpretation, something that you want to insist to differ on subject that you don't like, so let's interpret the verse according to what please us. 

 

Wait what? 
everyone is referring to the prophet mentioned in the Quran. This is to the people of his time. Obviously we have to follow him but we are doing so by reading the Quran. He was the messenger of the Holy Quran that is our guide and what the prophet taught. Everything else is biased and man made narrations. Why follow these when Allah says his book is complete and even warns us about people who are trying to use other things to refer to Allahs religion. The prophet has revealed the Holy book and it was sent in his time why people have to follow it. It’s not that we have to eat with our right hand and eat a certain amount of dates that makes us great muslims. It’s kind of messed up how the philosophy of the religion has switched to man made narrations and how deeply these are defended - some even go as far as saying that the Quran can’t be understood without these narrations. Very messed up to me. Allah’s words are put second or equal to hadithsً. I chose to see this as a truth for me. I don’t follow scholars blindly but use them as a tool to understand till i get “gana’a”/convinced. 

Lol. My translation might be wrong because it was roughly translated from arabic but look this verse up on Kamal A Haydaris channel on Youtube. It doesn’t refer to sexes but to whom is the weak/strong in the household and that person should help out. Both nisa and rejal can refer to both men and women. That is the point!

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everyone is referring to the prophet mentioned in the Quran. This is to the people of his time.

No, it is for all time. 

Quote

Obviously we have to follow him but we are doing so by reading the Quran. 

Following him is not limited to follow Qur'an only.

Quote

Everything else is biased and man made narrations. 

By this statement, do you affirm that you believe in Qur'an only who deny the narrations of our Imams (عليه السلام)? If yes then why you insist to put your viewpoint on us who believe in Qur'an and Imams sayings? Why you are even quoting Kamal Al Haydari who disagree with your point and who follows the narrations of imams (عليه السلام) too?

Quote

Lol. My translation might be wrong because it was roughly translated from arabic but look this verse up on Kamal A Haydaris channel on Youtube. It doesn’t refer to sexes but to whom is the weak/strong in the household and that person should help out. Both nisa and rejal can refer to both men and women. That is the point!

 

I think you misunderstood him, no where he says such a thing. Read this article and This. The only concern he is against the scholars about the verse is that woman have deficient intellect and are more emotional, which is not true. No where he says the verse rijal can be woman and nisaa can be men... or that it is means that who is weak or strong.

Edited by Abu Nur
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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

For example, the verse in the Qur’an where it says for the wives of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to remain in their homes. Of course, Islam doesn’t say you should keep your wife as a prisoner . . .

l always understood this as what was best for them and their personalities (on the Last Day). They -as Quran reveals- a little :discussion:  &  :gossip:. 

Plus, nothing like this was revealed about Khadeejah.

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@shia farm girl To uplift from the comical to the revealed:

Ayat 40:59  

6 hours ago, Guest Gamila said:

The prophet has revealed the Holy book

The Prophet -s.w.(عليه السلام).  did not reveal anything. Only Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can reveal.

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Guest Gamila
7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

@shia farm girl To uplift from the comical to the revealed:

Ayat 40:59  

The Prophet -s.w.(عليه السلام).  did not reveal anything. Only Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can reveal.

English is not my first language. I looked up the word and I fully agree with you. Allah revealed the Quran and the prophet was the messenger of it.

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Guest Gamila
13 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

No, it is for all time. 

Following him is not limited to follow Qur'an only.

By this statement, do you affirm that you believe in Qur'an only who deny the narrations of our Imams (عليه السلام)? If yes then why you insist to put your viewpoint on us who believe in Qur'an and Imams sayings? Why you are even quoting Kamal Al Haydari who disagree with your point and who follows the narrations of imams (عليه السلام) too?

I think you misunderstood him, no where he says such a thing. Read this article and This. The only concern he is against the scholars about the verse is that woman have deficient intellect and are more emotional, which is not true. No where he says the verse rijal can be woman and nisaa can be men... or that it is means that who is weak or strong.

I don’t know if I mentioned this - scholars are a tool for me to understand Islam - not to follow blindly. I use Sunni fiqh and Shia fiqh and I conclude what makes sense to me. Just as most muslims do when they chose someone to follow whether scholar or a whole school. I don’t believe in falsified narrations but rather listen to translations of the Holy Book. Kamal Al Haydari is the only man I feel connected to of all shia scholars and his translation can be found on youtube where he refer to the words rijal and nisa In that specific aya as sexless nouns. Go check it out. :-)

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  • Haji 2003 changed the title to Muslims depress me

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