Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Did God Have a Choice to Not Create?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
On 10/12/2020 at 8:20 PM, dragonxx said:

No point in studying for a medical licensing exam if everyone will end up with a 100% anyway. Let alone someone who cheats on the exam and is caught red-handed... forget failing him and banning him from ever being a doctor in the country. This is called injustice. And we know justice is with God and God is with justice.

The difference between an opaque glass vs a transparent glass is not that the light gives to each them DIFFERENTLY.  The light is equal for both of them.  But the difference is in respective constitutions of the glasses themselves not in the way in which light treats both of them  Light is ONE and the same.  God's justice is intrinsic to God's very Being it is isn't separate from His Being, it is the very nature of Light for it to be received in accordance to the capacity of its receptacles.   

On 10/12/2020 at 8:20 PM, dragonxx said:

I on the other hand don't want to be in a heaven where people are still killing each other; that's no different from hell.

People enter paradise not through their own efforts but because God is merciful and has mercifully accepted their good deeds and forgiven their bad deeds .  Do you imagine that people "earn" their way to Paradise?  No!  People get to paradise by relying on and having confidence in God's mercy, not by relying and having confidence in their efforts.  It is by way of humility that people entre paradise not by way of pride in themselves.  This is such an important principle in Islam and the Quran.  It is a pity that you are still arguing about this.  You should get into your senses and stop think a bit about what others are telling you.  This is not even a Shia or Sunni thing.  

On 10/12/2020 at 8:20 PM, dragonxx said:

And no, people are not going to forgive their malicious slaughterers like the Kabugas, Yazids, Shimrs, Jeffrey Dahmrs, El Chapos, Suge knights, Hitlers, etc. etc.

people are not eternal.

     

On 10/12/2020 at 8:20 PM, dragonxx said:

Nor does God's love (reward) include them, rather His hate (punishment) encompasses them.

God's mercy precedes His wrath.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 171
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Punishment (Azab) is not eternal.  Some of the greatest mufassirs have pointed out that Azab shares the same root as the arabic word for sweet(Azeeb) which means that the punishment will eventually be

Are not you aware that Allah has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with Truth? He can, if He so wills, do away with you and bring forth a new creation [14:19]

God treats everyone equally.  His Mercy for everyone is equal.  Because His Being is that mercy.  And His Being is equally there for all (His Being is everywhere in the sense that there is no place th

  • Advanced Member
5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

WRONG !

Ayat 38:28

WRONG?  lol

Or should We treat those who have faith (who have iman) and do good ('amalus salihat) like those who make mischief (mufsid) throughout the land? Or should We treat the people of God-Consciousness (muttaqeen) like the wicked (Fujjar)?

What is the "WE"?

The "WE" are the manifestation of the plurality of Divine Names / Attributes.  They can be either of two categories (Merciful) or (Majestic).

In other words, this is just karma.  If you do evil, the divine names of majesty will predominate over the divine names of mercy.  And if you do good, the divine names of mercy will predominate over the divine names of majesty.  but the Source of All Divine Names (which is One Being) is equally present and unblocked.  An opaque glass lamp will naturally display dimmer light than a glass lamp that is clearer.  But the light in both cases is equal and one on substance. 

I need to reiterate over and over again, "God's mercy precedes His wrath".  This is an Islamic principle.  No, it doesn't say God's mercy and His wrath equally compete with each other or that they are in equal measure.  No!   Ask yourself why that is.

Because at the end of the day there is nothing but light (mercy) and darkness (wrath) is not real in and of itself.  God doesn't attribute wrath to Himself, God attributes mercy to Himself.  God never says I am full of wrath.  No!  God says I am Merciful!  So this only means that if God punishes and abases anyone, He punished due to His loving mercy.  OR you can say, it is out of Love and because love has the quality to punish and to abase that God punishes and abases!   

Have you not seen someone who feels abased and hurt because of loving someone?  The pain can be more intense than even physical pain.  So don't imagine that God HATES anyone.  If God hates someone why would God make them exist in the first place?  If you hate someone it is out of your limitation.  Why would God hate anyone?  To hate is to suffer!  God does not suffer!      

  

Edited by eThErEaL
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

People enter paradise not through their own efforts but because God is merciful and has mercifully accepted their good deeds and forgiven their bad deeds .  Do you imagine that people "earn" their way to Paradise?  No!  People get to paradise by relying on and having confidence in God's mercy, not by relying and having confidence in their efforts.  It is by way of humility that people entre paradise not by way of pride in themselves.  This is such an important principle in Islam and the Quran.  It is a pity that you are still arguing about this.  You should get into your senses and stop think a bit about what others are telling you.  This is not even a Shia or Sunni thing.  

Sure. Not arguing with anyone. However what you say does not relate to the category of people I referred to. They don't have love, they don't have light, they won't go to heaven, they will be in hell and even there they will be fighting amongst each other.

Allah has some love for yazid (l.a), really? The nature of the "light" may not be different for him, but certainly Allah has withdrawn any and all light from such a black heart whether that heart is 'transparent' or 'opaque'. Punishment only will ensue.

I will say though, that of course the human must earn their way to paradise. Yes, a necessity for reaping what they sow is indeed having confidence and belief in Allah's mercy. However effort and humility go hand in hand.

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

people are not eternal.

 

their souls, dependent on Allah, are eternal.

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

God's mercy precedes His wrath.   

agreed. but do you even believe in this as an atheist or are you kindly trying to educate me on your interpretations of islam? or are you implying that this is always the case? i will answer now, it is not always the case. Some will have no mercy as their mercy was allowing them a life in this world. The moment they are dead, their grave becomes hellish until hell begins.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

So this only means that if God punishes and abases anyone, He punished due to His loving mercy

I like this concept. But what about those God punishes eternally? I don’t see any “loving mercy” in that!

 

Just to add, when God says he does not love particular persons, I believe this could be interpreted to mean that certain actions impede our ability to “enjoy” this mercy and we become opaque (like you mentioned).

Edited by 313_Waiter
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
14 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

I like this concept. But what about those God punishes eternally? I don’t see any “loving mercy” in that!

Punishment (Azab) is not eternal.  Some of the greatest mufassirs have pointed out that Azab shares the same root as the arabic word for sweet(Azeeb) which means that the punishment will eventually become sweet for the dwellers of Hell.  Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Arabi (Two scholars who are viewed by many as being on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of viewpoints) actually agree on this!  But even so, the dwellers of Hell who remain there eternally remain there because it is demanded by their constitution just like a scorpion belongs in a dry hot desert as it is demanded by the scorpion's constitution.  If you place the scorpion in a tropical place it will find it to be torturous and will not be bale to survive.  So, in view of this, one can argue that Hell is a mercy even for the its dwellers.        

14 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Just to add, when God says he does not love particular persons, I believe this could be interpreted to mean that certain actions impede our ability to “enjoy” this mercy and we become opaque (like you mentioned).

Yes.  That is what I have been trying to say.  There is God in Himself and there is God as we experience Him.  God is All Loving and Merciful, but if you have bad opinion about God, then you will not be able to enjoy God's mercy.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 hours ago, dragonxx said:

 

but do you even believe in this as an atheist or are you kindly trying to educate me on your interpretations of islam? 

Yes,  I am atheist, but I am very passionate about Islam and God's mercy.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
9 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So, in view of this, one can argue that Hell is a mercy even for the its dwellers.        

Quote

Only if it becomes “sweet” for them as you say.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
11 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

sweet(Azeeb) which means that the punishment will eventually become sweet for the dwellers of Hell.  Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Arabi (Two scholars who are viewed by many as being on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of viewpoints) actually agree on this! 

Salam  punishment  of hell won't  become  sweet because every punishment  & bodies of people of hell will renew each time also we don't  get false beliefs these two people specially cursed Ibn Taymiyyah that will have special place in hell & he will punish for both of his deviations & for sins of people that mislead by his deviations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/17/2020 at 2:55 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Hello Dave,

I hope you’re doing well and I just wanted to give my 2 cents on this topic.

I like what you wrote and I think from a Muslim perspective, God says His mercy “Rahma” encompasses all things and that He is “The Compassionate”. So I believe this mercy and compassion will be for all of creation. However, his special love is for His righteous servants. This “love” is for those who do good, keep themselves pure, repent, place their trust in Him, act justly, are steadfast, are God-conscious and follow His Messengers and Prophets. 
May God make us of those who earn this special love.

God bless you

Thanks - It seems if one desn't contribute each day you get left behind!

I understand your division between God's mercy for all and love for some.

Yes God is merciful to all - he provides the sun and rain, life and breath, beauty and wonder.  Without him the universe would cease.  I believe He also offers a close intimate relationship with himself to all - free and without condition.

That brings us to the second area.  I belive that thouse who accept and take advantage of the free offer of transformation, new life enter a living relationship with God.  They become members of his family, adopted children.  These people will recieve, and have received, a differnt kind of mercy.  They know God intimatly as their father and have deep fellowship with him through his life within them.

You suggest that this "special love" is a consiquence of what a person does - keep themselves pure etc - I would like to sugget that these things come as a consiquence of what God has done.  Jesus the Messiah offers transformation he does not look for it as a condition for acceptence.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/13/2020 at 1:20 AM, dragonxx said:

No point in studying for a medical licensing exam if everyone will end up with a 100% anyway. Let alone someone who cheats on the exam and is caught red-handed... forget failing him and banning him from ever being a doctor in the country. This is called injustice. And we know justice is with God and God is with justice. 

But if what you say truly makes sense to you, I suppose you don't mind paying and being treated by a doctor who did 0 studying, all cheating. Good luck in heaven sir.

I on the other hand don't want to be in a heaven where people are still killing each other; that's no different from hell.

And no, people are not going to forgive their malicious slaughterers like the Kabugas, Yazids, Shimrs, Jeffrey Dahmrs, El Chapos, Suge knights, Hitlers, etc. etc. Nor does God's love (reward) include them, rather His hate (punishment) encompasses them.

Thanks Dragon for your response.  You are right in seeing that God God expects 100% in the exam of righteiousness and good deeds.  So, in reallity we all fail.  God's justice sets a consiquence for this failour and we will all have to experience it unless the Just Judge does something.

The Just Judge Himself dealt with our failour, offering us a new start with His own power living within us.  Those in heaven will be those who have been transformed by God's powerful Spirit into people who live to please him.  There is no room in God's pure presence for "people killing each other".

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/22/2020 at 7:55 PM, ahlulbaytkr said:

Allah doesn't need anything. He can't worship himself as that would not be logical. I he wants to be worship, he had to create so that he may be worshipped.

Why not, given that He is All-Sufficient, and being All-Sufficient is a form of worship, isn’t it? In other words, being Needless, He worships Himself as He is. He cannot debase Himself by imposing a necessary will on Himself that binds Him to His creation.

Additionally, His foreknowledge would imply responsibility for the composition of His creation, and a soul, for instance, cannot act other than in accordance with its constitution, even in the World of Particles, and its intention in this World of Particles controls its destiny in the Hereafter, with life on Earth representing a mortal interregnum or (from our human, relative perspective) “dream”: we awaken (descend) in order to sleep (“dream” on Earth) and sleep (die) in order to awaken (to immortality).

Eternal punishment, therefore, would subject a soul to eternal torment for simply acting in accordance with its constitution—an activity that took place prior to (our understanding of time being subjective) mortal existence on Earth. Any species cannot survive without acting in accordance with its constitution.

So if one is evil, he was destined to be evil by the very constitution of his soul, which determines his intention, the outcome being decided by the soul’s intention as expressed in its pledging allegiance or not to Allah’s Representative, Imam Ali, in the World of Particles.

Since evil is not part of Allah, and Allah cannot bind Himself to his creation, that is, impose a necessary will on Himself, without debasing Himself, this implies that, in light of Allah’s predestining/foreseeing (His domain being absolute), then Allah’s “punishment” would logically be a mercy for the species suited to Hell.

The Qur’ān, being paradoxical, merely looks at reality from the perspective of the species whose constitution is good. From this perspective, Paradise would be a mercy for the species. Just as most of the universe is inhospitable, that is, hellish, most species’ constitution is “hellish,” so Paradise would be a punishment for them, just as Hell would be a punishment for the species whose constitution is “paradisal.”

Therefore, every action and occurrence in the universe is ultimately merciful and beneficial for all creation, when viewed from the perspective of the Creator, since this plane of existence is but a “dream” compared to absolute reality, which encompasses unreality as well. (Incidentally, this is also why almost all animals are barred from Paradise.)

This is why all true believers, whether hellish or paradisal, have no fear or anxiety, no concern for punishment or reward, but are grounded in Being. The cosmic dance. There is no contradiction between good and evil. Duality is an illusion, like “reward” and “punishment.”

Taken together, all this, incidentally, lends credence to the possibility that the universe is a kind of simulation.

@eThErEaL

Edited by Northwest
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Thanks Dragon for your response.  You are right in seeing that God God expects 100% in the exam of righteiousness and good deeds.  So, in reallity we all fail.  God's justice sets a consiquence for this failour and we will all have to experience it unless the Just Judge does something.

The Just Judge Himself dealt with our failour, offering us a new start with His own power living within us.  Those in heaven will be those who have been transformed by God's powerful Spirit into people who live to please him.  There is no room in God's pure presence for "people killing each other".

Please Dave, I expected a more thoughtful reply. I did not say, imply, or allude that God expects 100%.

God has favourites, and the opposite of favourites. Not everyone reaches the same level and not everyone is recompensed with the same reward for simply identifying with a monotheistic religion. God loving everyone... that is not fair, not logical, and most importantly, unjust. 

The killer and the killed will never be the same.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
18 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

The killer and the killed will never be the same.

It reminds me a hadith e qudsi

من طلبني وجدني ، ومن وجدني عرفني ،ومن عرفني أحبّني ومن أحبني عشقني ، ومن عشقني عشقته ، ومن عشقته قتلته ، ومن قتلته فعليّ ديته ، ومن عليّ ديته فأنا ديته

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 10/19/2020 at 5:51 AM, eThErEaL said:

Punishment (Azab) is not eternal

Salaam brother if you hold this view what would you say about the hadiths from the Imams that indicate otherwise?

e.g.

Quote

Be afraid of the fire - the Hell, whose depth is fathomless whose intensity is enormous and where new kinds of punishments are constantly being introduced. The Hell is an abode where there is no place for His Mercy and Blessings. Prayers of those who are thrown there will neither be heard nor accepted and there will not be any lessening in their sufferings and sorrow. (Letter 27 - Nahjul Balagha)

The crab example wouldn’t apply here because people are literally suffering and in sorrow^^ and not made to acclimatise to their environment.

There is another hadith from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) as well.

Barakallah Feek 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

This brings forth a discussion on The Omnipotence of the Creator. My Islamic Studies teacher beautifully explains this theory

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
11 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam brother if you hold this view what would you say about the hadiths from the Imams that indicate otherwise?

e.g.

The crab example wouldn’t apply here because people are literally suffering and in sorrow^^ and not made to acclimatise to their environment.

There is another hadith from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) as well.

Barakallah Feek 

 

That is interesting.  I guess, the Sunni position is different. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
40 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

That is interesting.  I guess, the Sunni position is different. 

Offhand, there is a prophetic hadith about the last person to come out of Gehenna. lt does not say this person will be the last person in there.

Ayat 11:107; 43:74

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/20/2020 at 9:31 PM, Northwest said:

Why not, given that He is All-Sufficient, and being All-Sufficient is a form of worship, isn’t it? In other words, being Needless, He worships Himself as He is.

What kind of Good and rightious being would worship himself.  Isn't that the worst kind of pride and narcissism?

I don't believe the reason God created people was so that he would be worshiped.  Again that is an egoistic action unworthy of a pure God.

People were made to enjoy a friendship and intimacy with God.  Our worship of him is the natural response of the creature to the creator.  It is a consiquence not a purpose.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 10/21/2020 at 3:56 AM, dragonxx said:

God has favourites, and the opposite of favourites. Not everyone reaches the same level and not everyone is recompensed with the same reward for simply identifying with a monotheistic religion. God loving everyone... that is not fair, not logical, and most importantly, unjust. 

The killer and the killed will never be the same.

How can God have favourites? He is unbiased and without prejudice.  Favouritism is a weakness and leads to untold injustice and pain, completely inappropriate of God.

Levels and rewards are not a consequence of favouritism they are the outcome of what a person does with the overflowing generosity and grace of God offered to them.

If we go down the road of saying God doesn't love everyone, we are left with a very big and awkward question.  Who does God love?  resulting in the next question "does he love me and my community".  If we are not able to receive God's love because he has chosen not to love us, what hope have got?

You are right in one sense the killer and the killed are not the same - the victim and the perpetrator.  But in another sense, and I believe it is the way God looks at all of us, the killer and the killed are both human beings made in God's image who he loves unconditionally and to both of them there is an offer of redemption, restoration and new life.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
17 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam brother if you hold this view what would you say about the hadiths from the Imams that indicate otherwise?

e.g.

Salam.

As far as we mortal humans are concerned, Hell is going to be forever.  Because even if the punishment does end, the question is, when will it end?  A day in the hereafter is like 50,000 years according to our sense here on earth (As the Quran or Ahadith state).  The normal human lifespan is on avg. only 70 years.  Even if the punishment were to last for only one day (which is 50,000 years) that would be like 715 earthly-human life cycles.   So, it doesn't help to tell people the punishment in Hell will one day end, because that isn't a practical solution.  In all practicality, it will not end.  We hardly live 20 years without forgetting a sizable portion of our memories.  Imagine being in Hell for even a day (715 earthly-human life cycles), you will feel like you have been there forever.  So you can say, the Imam (عليه السلام) was being practical, and describing the situation in Hell relative to the human situation here on earth.  

 

Quote

The crab example wouldn’t apply here because people are literally suffering and in sorrow^^ and not made to acclimatise to their environment.

So the answer can be that it is "relatively" forever.  (this is if we still want to uphold the position held by many Sunnis).  

Hell is something to be fearful of.  But the fear should always lead to hope in God's mercy, not despair in God's mercy!

One thing remains,

the people who end up in Hell are precisely those people who DON'T hope in God's mercy.

Edited by eThErEaL
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

So the answer can be that it is "relatively" forever.  (this is if we still want to uphold the position held by many Sunnis).  

So where the Imams say hell is eternal in more explicit terms we can interpret it as “relatively” eternal (if we want to hold onto Ibn arabi’s opinion.
 

Quote

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) was asked the same question and he (عليه السلام) replied:

“Surely, people of Hell are eternally in Hell because their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would disobey God eternally, likewise people of Paradise will be eternally in Paradise because their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would worship God eternally.” (al-Kaafi, vol.2 p.85)

Though at the end of the day wallahu a’lamu wa ma la ta’lamoon

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

So where the Imams say hell is eternal in more explicit terms we can interpret it as “relatively” eternal (if we want to hold onto Ibn arabi’s opinion.

Yes, this seems to be the prevalent view amongst many Sunnis.  

 

5 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Though at the end of the day wallahu a’lamu wa ma la ta’lamoon

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes, this seems to be the prevalent view amongst many Sunnis.  

Regarding the Hadith by Imam Ja’fer Sadiq (عليه السلام),

i find this very profound.

the Niyyah of a person who dwells in Hell is that if he were to live forever on earth he would forever be disobedient to God.  
 

Very very profound.  

Let us say we are told that we will live forever and that we will not be affected by any kind of sickness, old age, weakness, poverty, and hunger (let us say we are living in a virtual paradise).  Would we really have a reason to be obedient to God and to worship Him and to folllow His commandments?  Yes, theoretically, we would like to say right now, “of course we will be obedient because God is the Greatest Being Worthy of Our Worship and Praise and All Praise is due to Him Alone, We ought to show gratitude and thanks to God always and forever”.  But would we really?  
 

Based on this, I am among those who definitely deserve eternal damnation in Hell.   :)
 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

How can God have favourites? He is unbiased and without prejudice.  Favouritism is a weakness and leads to untold injustice and pain, completely inappropriate of God.

By the human earning favour; coming back to the example of the killer and the killed, the killer (assuming he killed unjustly, obviously), will have no favour compared to the killed (who, perhaps, died fighting a tyrant)

13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Levels and rewards are not a consequence of favouritism they are the outcome of what a person does with the overflowing generosity and grace of God offered to them.

Exactly. Favouritism is a consequence of level of worship achieved by the human. 

13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If we go down the road of saying God doesn't love everyone, we are left with a very big and awkward question.  Who does God love?  resulting in the next question "does he love me and my community".  If we are not able to receive God's love because he has chosen not to love us, what hope have got?

Indeed, it is a very big question, who does God love? The obedient one or the disobedient one? Big question but easy answer. A truly awkward question is why would God love a tyrant as unconditionally as a kind-hearted righteous human being? Indeed, if God has chosen not to love a human, that human is in trouble. Such is the point of this life, who runs towards God and who forgets God? The one doing the running towards God has unlimited hope, if he is sincere. 

13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

You are right in one sense the killer and the killed are not the same - the victim and the perpetrator.  But in another sense, and I believe it is the way God looks at all of us, the killer and the killed are both human beings made in God's image who he loves unconditionally and to both of them there is an offer of redemption, restoration and new life.

I agree there is an offer of redemption always on the table, that does not mean the human achieved redemption, nor that the human is worthy of God's "love" (reward). 

You are free to believe what you want, such is the nature of freewill.

I wonder though, which holy book do you derive these beliefs from, where God will give the killer and the killed unconditional love?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

This is the kind of question l wish @repenter-gone4awhilewas around to comment on. l know S.C has a few 'good students' of lslam in addition to him.

QUESTION:

Quran states that the Command is with Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). in all things.

The title and OP uses the word "choice".

Command is decision making involving the making of a plan. 

Where is the idea of "choice" involved?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
21 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I don't believe the reason God created people was so that he would be worshiped.

It’s not egoistic as you are desperately trying to make it to be. 
 

God is making it clear that he created us to worship Him. Because we worship Him, we live a moral dignified lifestyle and make use of our brain (which you obviously don’t no matter how clear) to reach a much higher status higher than the angels. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Based on this, I am among those who definitely deserve eternal damnation in Hell.

That’s if you recognise there is a higher power that  has set some law codes for man 

Edited by THREE1THREE
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
7 hours ago, dragonxx said:

wonder though, which holy book do you derive these beliefs from, where God will give the killer and the killed unconditional love?

From Paul the imposter but definitely not Jesus read Matthew 5:17-20 and Matthew 6 and 7 and also Luke 6:46 is pretty clear and James the Just 2:8-11 and James 2:14-19 is pretty clear aswell and so is Ezekiel 18 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
21 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Levels and rewards are not a consequence of favouritism they are the outcome of what a person does with the overflowing generosity and grace of God offered to them.

Thus God favours the righteous above the unrighteous... favouritism right their.  God does not offer generosity to the wicked if we go by ur ridiculous delusional argument God was generous offered grace to the Jews that captured Christ since they had desired to capture him form day one of his public prophetic career thus their wish was granted. And also Yazeed the killer of imam Hussain had the best palace, food and etc does that mean God showed generosity and grace to yazeed ? Use ur head on that one and think really and don’t be silly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
21 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

It is a consiquence not a purpose.

Is that why Paulines and other nutcases act like heathens & others dressing half naked and etc and use God to justify their wickedness and act like animals.... it’s very prominent and common. Rubbish argument as the creation self evident argument against ur wishful thinking. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...