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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did God Have a Choice to Not Create?

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On 9/22/2020 at 5:21 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Could God exist without anything else existing?

1. Yes, due to consistent Quranic inferences

2. This question is untenable 

On 9/22/2020 at 5:21 PM, SoRoUsH said:

In realm of existence, can there be nothing but God? Nothing at all! Material or immaterial! 

Yes, when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the heavens and the earth at that time based on our understanding of material/immaterial, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) existed. 

Declarations such as وحده لا شريك له can also aid in inferring that this isn’t a statement of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) being the only deity, but also that He alone stands. When اسرافيل blows his trumpet everyone and everything will perish, therefore, leaving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as the sole existence (based on our understanding of existence) and if Allah is able to maintain existence before us and after us, our presence is not necessary for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to exist. Or recognition of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) validates our existence not the other way around.

One may postulate that before we were created we resided in عالم الذر (the world of particles) and after we perish we will reside in عالم البرزخ (the stage of purgatory) and by doing so, we can go towards the idea of وحدة الوجود in a sense being an extension of the absolute existence/consciousness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is this what you’re trying to get at? 

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33 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

1. Yes, due to consistent Quranic inferences

2. This question is untenable 

 

Yes, when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the heavens and the earth at that time based on our understanding of material/immaterial, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) existed. 

Declarations such as وحده لا شريك له can also aid in inferring that this isn’t a statement of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) being the only deity, but also that He alone stands. When اسرافيل blows his trumpet everyone and everything will perish, therefore, leaving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as the sole existence (based on our understanding of existence) and if Allah is able to maintain existence before us and after us, our presence is not necessary for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to exist. Or recognition of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) validates our existence not the other way around.

One may postulate that before we were created we resided in عالم الذر (the world of particles) and after we perish we will reside in عالم البرزخ (the stage of purgatory) and by doing so, we can go towards the idea of وحدة الوجود in a sense being an extension of the absolute existence/consciousness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is this what you’re trying to get at? 

This is a good post. 

You're right. So, it's clear that God can exist without anything else existing. He is self-sufficient, unlike anything else. 

He is الغنی

So, His nafs/نفس can exist alone. His nafs is His essence, not His attributes or names. 

The latter, His attributes and names, can only exist, meaningfully, in relation to other existing things. 

Although His attributes are "within" His nafs, they're not necessarily one and the same, since one can exist self-sufficiently, and the other can't. 

Makes sense? 

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On 9/22/2020 at 8:44 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

For God to be known and worshipped, the presence of the knowers and worshippers is necessary. Without the created beings, God's names and attributes would either be irrelevant or useless. Without the created beings God couldn't "do" anything. Everything that God is or does is meaningful only in relation to the created beings/things. 

We often ask, why did God create. 

However, a better, more fundamental question would be, based on everything we know about God, could God not have created the cosmos and things? In other words, did God have a choice to create or not to create things? 

If He did not have a choice, then it would not make sense to ask, why He created things, because He did not have a choice to not create things.  

This question is also connected to the nature of God's "free will".  What exactly is the nature of "freewill" with respect to God?

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God is Infinite Being.

Creation is finite being.

Axiomatically, there is only one reality.  Is reality Infinite or finite?  Rationally it has to be Infinite, but it appears to be finite and it feels as if it is finite.  

The question needs to be asked:

Since reality is fundamentally infinite, how and in what way did it end up appearing to be finite?

Even if we acknowledge "wahdatul wujud", this question is pertinent. 

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

This is a good post. 

You're right. So, it's clear that God can exist without anything else existing. He is self-sufficient, unlike anything else. 

He is الغنی

So, His nafs/نفس can exist alone. His nafs is His essence, not His attributes or names. 

The latter, His attributes and names, can only exist, meaningfully, in relation to other existing things. 

Although His attributes are "within" His nafs, they're not necessarily one and the same, since one can exist self-sufficiently, and the other can't. 

Makes sense? 

Nonetheless, the issue remains relative to our understanding of those attributes when they relate to us, I am sure no one can or has reasonably said that they’ve fully understood the attributes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only that they experienced the apparent, while being ignorant of the hidden. If we cannot perceive the hidden we will only make incomplete judgements by inferring solely from the apparent.

Will those attributes exist if we did not, considering we only understanding this by means of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making them known through us? I think this is incomplete, because we are unaware whether Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does exercise those mercies outwardly on other animate and inanimate objects/beings and whether the different manner in which those entities experience such a mercy is concordant or greater then ours.

Taking all material and immaterial objects out of the picture and leaving the sole existence to be that of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would warrant a astronomical transformation of paradigms, as well as a different realm that is exclusive to any of what we base our realities upon, however, to ponder over this I presume that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would reaffirm those attributes to Himself by being merciful, just, kingly, etc. Towards His own self. I believe one must be weary when saying there is inwardness and outwardness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for it is on a realm of understanding which we will fail to reach and if we compare that inwardness/outwardness to our limited rational faculties we will undoubtedly err.

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Ayat 5:17, exempli gratia: The 3rd person, singular masculine imperfect verb yashau, "He -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). wills."

Such a thing cannot be 'infer'ed  because "will" is not incorporated into logic.

We incorporate the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as an element which aids us in logic and rationality; an axiom. 

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18 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

For God to be known and worshipped, the presence of the knowers and worshippers is necessary. Without the created beings, God's names and attributes would either be irrelevant or useless. Without the created beings God couldn't "do" anything. Everything that God is or does is meaningful only in relation to the created beings/things. 

We often ask, why did God create. 

However, a better, more fundamental question would be, based on everything we know about God, could God not have created the cosmos and things? In other words, did God have a choice to create or not to create things? 

If He did not have a choice, then it would not make sense to ask, why He created things, because He did not have a choice to not create things.  

Allah creates by His will, so He has a choice to create or not create. He possessed the creative ability even before He created a single thing. It is in His nature to create things, and likewise to blot things out of existence. But He is not compelled to create anything, He creates as He wishes.

 

اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَفۡعَلُ مَا یُرِیۡدُ

surely Allah does what He will (22:15)

یَخۡلُقُ مَا یَشَآءُ

He creates what He pleases (42:49)

Edited by Cherub786
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On 9/22/2020 at 9:44 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

For God to be known and worshipped, the presence of the knowers and worshippers is necessary. Without the created beings, God's names and attributes would either be irrelevant or useless. Without the created beings God couldn't "do" anything. Everything that God is or does is meaningful only in relation to the created beings/things. 

We often ask, why did God create. 

However, a better, more fundamental question would be, based on everything we know about God, could God not have created the cosmos and things? In other words, did God have a choice to create or not to create things? 

If He did not have a choice, then it would not make sense to ask, why He created things, because He did not have a choice to not create things.  

Do you have a choice to act or not to act?  

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On 9/23/2020 at 2:54 AM, Cherub786 said:

Allah creates by His will, so He has a choice to create or not create. He possessed the creative ability even before He created a single thing. It is in His nature to create things, and likewise to blot things out of existence. But He is not compelled to create anything, He creates as He wishes.

 

اِنَّ اللّٰہَ یَفۡعَلُ مَا یُرِیۡدُ

surely Allah does what He will (22:15)

یَخۡلُقُ مَا یَشَآءُ

He creates what He pleases (42:49)

but since His will, which is necessarily eternal and unchanged, is to create then I don’t really see how this implies having a choice to not create.  Those verses do not say, “He creates if He pleases”, it says “He creates whatever He pleases”. Big difference.

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14 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

but since His will, which is necessarily eternal and unchanged, is to create then I don’t really see how this implies having a choice to not create.  Those verses do not say, “He creates if He pleases”, it says “He creates whatever He pleases”. Big difference.

It is also part of His Will to create when He pleases.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

So, God has a before and an after?

I didn’t understand your question.

But I think you mean to ask does God experience time. I cannot say. But I can say that God does things in time or at least in chronological sequence. That is why one of God’s names is al-Qadim, Qadim means “Ancient” or “Aged”, “Old”. God is ancient, meaning He is very, very old.

In the Book of Daniel, He is called Atik Yomin, which means "Ancient of Days" in Aramaic. Atiq is also an Arabic word which means old, or ancient.

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On 9/27/2020 at 3:56 AM, Cherub786 said:

I didn’t understand your question.

But I think you mean to ask does God experience time. I cannot say. But I can say that God does things in time or at least in chronological sequence. That is why one of God’s names is al-Qadim, Qadim means “Ancient” or “Aged”, “Old”. God is ancient, meaning He is very, very old.

In the Book of Daniel, He is called Atik Yomin, which means "Ancient of Days" in Aramaic. Atiq is also an Arabic word which means old, or ancient.

I find your views about God strange.

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On 9/27/2020 at 12:56 PM, Cherub786 said:

Qadim means “Ancient” or “Aged”, “Old”. God is ancient, meaning He is very, very old.

How old? Is there any set point for calculating His age? If not, what is meant by Al-Qadim? Aged, Old or Ancient or what? 

كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ

55:29 

Edited by Cool
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On 9/28/2020 at 8:36 PM, Cool said:

How old? Is there any set point for calculating His age? If not, what is meant by Al-Qadim? Aged, Old or Ancient or what? 

كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ

55:29 

Infinitely old. Aged, old and ancient are all essentially synonymous terms, though perhaps expressing different degrees of oldness. Ancient is the expression with the greatest degree of oldness connoted. Therefore, it is more appropriate to describe Allah as Ancient in the English language. Hence, He is Named "Ancient of Days" in the Book of Daniel, and "Ancient' is a good English translation of His Name al-Qadim.

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36 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Infinitely old.

If the past were infinitely long, an infinite amount of time would have had to pass before today. 

Can an infinite amount of time truly pass?

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6 minutes ago, Cool said:

If the past were infinitely long, an infinite amount of time would have had to pass before today. 

Can an infinite amount of time truly pass?

I never said anything about infinite time. I only said God is infinitely old, infinitely ancient.

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12 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I never said anything about infinite time. I only said God is infinitely old, infinitely ancient.

:hahaha: What is meant by old? That was my original question.

Oldness or ancientness both are relative to time. So when you say something is "infinitely old", what is the criteria for claiming the oldness or ancientness of a thing? 

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I love the name of God which is found in both the Qur'an and the Bible

Qur'an 57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.

Bible Prophet Isaiah 44:6-7

This is what the Lord says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies:

“I am the First and the Last;
    there is no other God.
Who is like me?
    Let him step forward and prove to you his power.
Let him do as I have done since ancient times

Revelation 22:12-13 Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

We get so occupied with our limited time frame it is so freeing to know and serve and worship a God who is outside our limited perspective.

Whether that helps us know whether he had to create or not - I'm not sure!

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"l's the Alfa and the Omeger" in Revelation/Apocalypse has always been applied to lsa -(عليه السلام)., not the God of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Don't do "Grahamers" by mixing the two together, please.

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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I never said anything about infinite time. I only said God is infinitely old, infinitely ancient.

There is no revealed Attribute that can be contrived into "the aged".

There are al-Awwal -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and al-Ahir -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , but to apply a secular concept of "age" is shirk.

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

There is no revealed Attribute that can be contrived into "the aged".

There are al-Awwal -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and al-Ahir -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , but to apply a secular concept of "age" is shirk.

This word is often used in philosophy while discussing God. But never we use it in the meanings like ancient, aged or old.

When we say God is قدیم it means He is not حادث. He is origin-less, with no beginning, He is ازلی، ابدی، سرمدی. 

That makes Him واجب الوجود (Necessary Being).

The word قدیم has different meanings in Urdu dictionary. I am listing them as follows:

1. پُرانا، پُرانے زمانے کا

2. جس کی کوئی ابتدا نہ ہو، ہمیشہ کا، ازلی، جس سے پہلے عدم یا حدوث نہ ہو۔

3. ازلی و ابدی، سرمدی

4.  آبائی، جدی، موروثی

From the above, only 2 & 3 are applicable while discussing God.

Edited by Cool
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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

There is no revealed Attribute that can be contrived into "the aged".

There are al-Awwal -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and al-Ahir -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , but to apply a secular concept of "age" is shirk.

Qadim is a revealed divine attribute, and it literally means ancient, old.

If you go to the Bible, Atik the Aramaic word which corresponds to Atiq in Arabic, means ancient, old, and is one of God’s divine attributes and names.

It isn’t shirk for us but maybe for you. For us, shirk is basically worshiping other gods, in the form of idols or bones – which is what many Shi’ah do in praying to the departed and constructing shrines over graves.

1 hour ago, Cool said:

1. پُرانا، پُرانے زمانے کا

Yes, I believe God is purana meaning old, ancient, but without beginning or origin. Being old or ancient does not necessitate origin, He is simply old relative to that which is new or young. Likewise, we say God is big, and everything compared to Him is small, but being “big” does not necessitate a limit in size. Even that which is unlimited and infinite can still be described with such positive adjectives as old, big, strong, etc.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Yes, I believe God is purana meaning old, ancient, but without beginning or origin

Technically, anything without origin cannot be called as old,ancient because of the problem of time relativity. 

You can translate it as "Eternal". 

This would cover everything from Al-Awwal to Al-Aakhir.

ETERNAL 
Adjective
دائم ، قدیم ، ازلی ، ابدی ، لایزال ، غیر فانی 

If you continue to insist God is old, aged, ancient, you will face the logical questions already asked by me. 

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Being old or ancient does not necessitate origin, He is simply old relative to that which is new or young.

For instance? Any example of thing which you consider is new or young? 

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8 minutes ago, Cool said:

Technically, anything without origin cannot be called as old,ancient because of the problem of time relativity. 

I disagree.

It is generally believed that the punishment of Hell is eternal and everlasting. But read this Ayah:

لّٰبِثِیۡنَ فِیۡہَاۤ اَحۡقَابًا

Who will tarry therein for ages (78:23)

Ahqab is the plural of huqb, which basically means a long period of time, but finite nonetheless. Now when a finite period of time is pluralized, it is arguable that it could be infinite periods of time without end, although admittedly this isn’t the immediate impression. Incidentally, I believe that the punishment of Jahannam is not infinite based on this Ayah and other reasons.

Similarly, when we say Allah is ancient, old and aged, it is not necessary that His age or oldness is finite. It could be legitimately interpreted as inifinite in age and oldness, just as 78:23 could legitimately be interpreted as infinite lengthy periods of time.

The purpose is to glorify Allah by describing Him as Ancient, to give a sense of His grandeur since in the human realm that which is ancient and old is respected.

15 minutes ago, Cool said:

For instance? Any example of thing which you consider is new or young? 

Compared to Allah’s Person, everything is new and young.

Compared to infinity, every number is small and insignificant.

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Qadim is a revealed divine attribute, and it literally means ancient, old.

NOT  True  !

l searched and innitially found three of this Q:

A "fire jinn".

The game Dungeons and Dragons

And https://www.islamclass.wordpress.com/2015/06/11/al-qadim-as-a-name-of-allah/   which is some hokey, pseudo-intellectual shirk.

So, using an Attribute that is actually revealed, al-Qadir revealed Ayats 6:21,  7:52 & 34:8. . .so take a guess about what the rest of S.C. knows.

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

If you go to the Bible . . . 

Offhand, l can recite three attributes in the 0ld Testament: Savoir, Justice and Jealous. From the New Testament one: Good.

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2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

NOT  True  !

What isn’t true? Your entire post was incoherent and I couldn’t understand a thing. It reminded me of the frustration I had trying to make sense of Ashvazdanghe’s posts, but at least he had the excuse of not knowing English.

3 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Offhand, l can recite three attributes in the 0ld Testament: Savoir, Justice and Jealous. From the New Testament one: Good.

Ummm...what’s your point? These are all attributes of God, are you disputing them?

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