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In the Name of God بسم الله

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

why flawed logic? You are being off topic. If you want to discuss flat Earth concepts, then that is the wrong thread, wouldn't you agree?

not if the conspiracy theories are related to the COVID-19 mania. We are discussing the big picture, and just because you don't like what some people say, or their opinions of the big picture, you don't need to get upset at it. Not good for your heart!

Flawed logic is logic which does not maintain internal consistency. For example fear of satellite communication along with denial of the existence of satellites. 

There is no vaccine for COVID-19. Frankly, if They wanted to implant everyone with nanobots, vaccines would be an utterly unnecessary expense and additional step. Such machines could more reliably be delivered in food or water, or even in the air we breathe. 

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I’m an “anti-masker” I deliberately do not wear a mask in public, including on public transportation though it is mandatory, and in stores. Although I am politely told to wear a mask I always shake my

Gonna have to disagree with this one, sorry. People being gainfully employed and being able to eat and provide for their families is much more important than communal religious activities. You don't n

I don't know man. For me, it was the opposite case. The first death that personally affected me was of my 25 year old friend who had no pre-existing medical conditions. She got positive for corona and

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

machines could more reliably be delivered in food or water, or even in the air we breathe.

they actually mention this in the video. It's on food packaging, inside food. It is everywhere. 

It is only like 10 minutes, and it's clips of mostly mainstream media, so you won't get too much of fit. Come on! Make that one exception for your good friend 313 seeker! watch that one video and tell us what you think. thank you

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48 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

NBC said, l believe, that the City of Oakland has set up one-way sidewalks.

"To Prevent Bunching"

Good ldea

My uncle manages a grocery store chain, and they've made all the aisles one-way. 

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On 4/5/2020 at 1:07 PM, hasanhh said:

Think of this question: would you create a weapon you have no control over and as of today have 1/4 of reported global infections?

Humans don't have control over any weapon. Be it a simple gun if fell in wrong hands can be a problem. 

Weapons are created to kill, Be it a gun, missiles, nuclear weapon or a bio weapon. 

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10 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Guys, this is the hundredth time I see these numbers. Come on! If these are true, then how can this not be a hoax?

gfx_death_comparisons_verify_full.jpg.10c1da100615ac2ec8554766f2ec2558.jpg

please I beg you .. prove these numbers wrong

Two simple questions:

  1. Do you personally know anyone who works in the medical /healthcare field?
  2. If you do, are they reporting business as usual?
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10 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Guys, this is the hundredth time I see these numbers. Come on! If these are true, then how can this not be a hoax?

gfx_death_comparisons_verify_full.jpg.10c1da100615ac2ec8554766f2ec2558.jpg

please I beg you .. prove these numbers wrong

https://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/verify/verify-numbers-comparing-common-causes-of-deaths-to-covid-19-leave-out-context/507-d8cf14f8-ebc7-4e53-bbe9-767650152b4a

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@Haji 2003

Social media users and public figures alike have compared the numbers of deaths thus far in the COVID-19 pandemic to the number of deaths for other diseases for the past couple of months.

This is often done to downplay the severity of the pandemic. 

However, the comparisons made are often apples to oranges and the data shared is often missing context or just flat incorrect.

First of all, it’s moot to even compare the number of COVID-19 deaths at this point to other kinds of causes of deaths. The numbers for most of these items are high, but fairly stable over time. 

However, coronavirus deaths have been growing exponentially. That means each day the increase grows by a rate that becomes more rapid in proportion to the growing total number.  

Let’s take a look at a few WHO situation reports as an example. On March 1, they reported there were 53 deaths in the last 24 hours. There were 862 deaths in the last 24 hours on March 16. There were 3215 new deaths in the last 24 hours according to the most recent situation report on March 30.

This matches the trend in numbers of total new cases. A graph of total cases day-by-day is shown in the bottom right of Johns Hopkins’ coronavirus data map. The graph shows how there are many more new cases per day now than there were near the beginning of March.

But are the numbers shown at least correct? Well, not necessarily.

These statistics aren’t tracked on a weekly basis globally. Instead, you have to estimate based on previous annual totals or estimates.

For example, the World Health Organization estimates there are between 290,000 and 650,000 flu deaths each year. They don’t track the exact total annually and made this estimate in December 2017. Nonetheless, if you make an estimate of what that would look like 85 days into a 366 day year, there would be between 67,350 and 150,956 deaths to the flu at this point in the year. The number shown above falls in that range, but it’s important to note just how wide that range is.

Not every number shown in the picture falls in the estimated range, however. Take the last number: 390,908 deaths to HIV/AIDS. The last annual estimate we have to work with is the 2018 numbers when somewhere between 570,000 and 1,100,000 died from AIDS-related illnesses, according to UN AIDS. That should be between 132,377 and 255,464 deaths when translated to just 85 days. That’s well under the figure given in the meme.

BOTTOM LINE

If you're going to try and compare COVID-19’s death toll to most other common causes of deaths, you need to include context. The figures surrounding coronavirus have grown exponentially, while the other causes of deaths are generally estimated on an annual basis. 

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Posted (edited)

I'll just add that the death count of coronavirus continues to rage on, and we also do not have a vaccine, whereas we do have a vaccine for the flu, which makes coronavirus even more concerning. It also kills a higher percentage of the infected, especially the elderly.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/09/its-difficult-to-grasp-the-projected-deaths-from-covid-19-heres-how-they-compare-to-other-causes-of-death/

Edited by iCenozoic
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I enjoy a conspiracy theory as much as the next person, and undoubtedly some of them are true, but you need to think about whose life you are risking.

My friend posted this on Facebook. I've edited out some language that is inappropriate for shiachat. Apologies if I've missed any - please report and I or another moderator will edit out the offensive language. The passage is worth reading. 

Quote

I have very little patience for conspiracy theories. Primarily, I believe they are a distraction from events that are done in full view of everyone but that receive little attention. The deregulation of the finance sector, the growth of the police state and the prison-industrial complex, the “continuous war” model, the 2008 housing crisis, the disenfranchisement of large numbers of Americans, the widening of the wage gap, the diminished power of organized labor — these all happened where anyone could see them, on C-Span, on network and cable news, in the published records of Congress, etc. Yet few of us paid much attention to them because they require a good deal of understanding of the complexity of issues and how one piece is connected to another. 

It’s important to note that not all conspiracy theories are false. This contributes to their special perniciousness, because it casts challenging them in an ethical framework. If one says, for example, that it seems highly unlikely that a cabal of lizard people are sitting in the world’s seats of power, someone might say, “They said the same thing about MK-UKTRA and COINTELPRO.” How does one counter such an argument? It’s entirely true, even reasonable, to believe that the ruling class does not have our best interests in mind. 

Yet it is incumbent on us to hold conspiracy theories to a rigorous standard of evidence. First of all, false conspiracies keep our focus away from making real change on issues that matter. Secondly, they contribute to the spread of misinformation that is a plague in our culture, where anyone can shout “fake news” when presented with information, whether the information is true or not. And lastly, conspiracy theories are intentionally planted (we know this from verifiable declassified records of the CIA, the FBI, and other intelligence agencies) to discredit opponents. If an otherwise credible opponent begins spouting conspiracy theories, it becomes a simple matter to discredit anything they say that might be true. 

I have a devotion to the idea of “making claims from evidence.” Partly because of the previous work I did in my “former life” as an educator and partly because I spent so many of my early years moving in groups where circular reasoning, unprovable assertions, and deliberate misinformation were the norm, it is something I am passionate about. To that end, I’d like to provide a few thoughts about how to distinguish between a conspiracy theory and actual evidence, with the caveat that once in a very long time, one of them turns out to be true. 

1. They cite unreliable and unverifiable sources. Conspiracy theorists use widely-discredited “experts” who have no credibility in their fields but who present themselves to the media in a way that is indistinguishable from actual experts. They are also fond of unnamed and unnameable sources: “a friend of my brother’s who works for a vaccine company” or “someone who didn’t want to be named who is married to the CEO of a software company.”

2. They use different evidentiary standards for themselves than the ones they apply to their opponents. To the conspiracy theorist, every piece of evidence that contradicts their established viewpoint can be easily waved away: “That’s what they want you to think,” “Who do you think controls the media/scientific laboratories/government agencies/etc.?” By contrast, they need only to use insinuation, correlation without corresponding causation, non-specific assertions, “common sense” (which only they are their party seem to have), and “gut feelings.”

3. They fire everything and hope something will stick. They produce multitudinous data points that individually might be easily refutable, but that take enormous time and effort to do so. Since most of us have important things to actually do, this gives the impression of having a mountain of irrefutable data. Correlating to this, if one engages in the effort in attacking each datum individually, the conspiracy theorist will shift quickly from the point being addressed to another and so on. One thing I will give them: they have enormous energy. 

4. They use anomalies as “proof,” because they do not understand how evidence works. For example, if I show you a photo of a man holding an umbrella on a perfectly sunny day in Dallas in 1963, that single anomalous point proves exactly nothing, much less that the mob killed JFK. It only proves that some guy opened an umbrella on a perfectly sunny day in Dallas in 1963 — unless there is additional evidence. And the thing about “big” events — JFK’s assassination, 9/11, the COVID-19 pandemic — is that they produce LOTS of data points. Statistically speaking, there absolutely *will be* outliers — lots of them — and those outliers do not prove anything taken alone. 

5. When using scientific data, they do not adhere to the scientific method. Whether is it flat-earthers, young-earthers, climate change deniers, anti-vaxers, or others, their adherence to accepted scientific practices is flawed. They do not use replicable studies or else their pool was too small or there was no adequate control or variables weren’t isolated. They cite single studies, published in dubious journals (if at all) that are not peer-reviewed. They focus on a single finding of a study even when the rest of the study contradicts their assertion. Etc., etc. 

6. They portray themselves as part of a special group — a group that is persecuted or particularly woke or that is feared by those in power — as a way to dismiss any attack on their credibility. They don’t have tenured positions because the establishment is afraid of them. They aren’t published in reputable journals because they are being persecuted. Everyone thinks they are tinfoil hat-wearing loons because everyone else are “sheeple.”

This is just my list. It isn’t exhaustive or anything and more things may come to mind later. I’m old and have a lot going on in my life, so I tend to ignore most conspiracy theorists these days. And you know, Jeffrey Epstein really *may have not* killed himself. Stranger things have happened. 

But in the middle of a pandemic, when human lives are at stake, when 2000 Americans died *today*, my patience grows pretty thin. I try to be understanding and even give a fair hearing to the most insane of ideas, but sisters and brothers — just now may not be the time. 

Stay healthy. Love to all of you.

 

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2 hours ago, starlight said:
Quote

The figures surrounding coronavirus have grown exponentially, while the other causes of deaths are generally estimated on an annual basis. 

If it's really exponential as they say since weeks, then the rates would be millions by now. But now officially the rates is still lower than the flu one in March. It's just passed 100,000 officially today.

Also I would like to point out that it seems they don't test for a virus but for an RNA sequences that they claim has a link to a virus. But from what I've read there is no proof of an actual virus having this unique sequence. Quite the opposite if I'm not wrong, even the CDC and the equivalent in China admit that people can test positive when they are not sick, and there is the possibility that this sequence exists in random people. Especially people under stress or other diseases.

But numbers speak for themselves. If the numbers are so much less than common flu, then this draconian panic can't be justified in any way. There is certainly something fishy here.

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Posted (edited)

Let me summarize in layman terms what conspiracy theorist who are highly qualified doctors and scientist have said:

The people dying are a combination of

1 - old people with previous serious conditions, and because of some diagnosis they get registered as having died from the virus.

2 - other old people who are prevented from getting treatment for their other serious diseases due to a new policy of only accepting certain younger patients.

3 - the effects of rolling out 5G which has bad effects on soft tissue especially respiratory system. (Also stress in general including stress from isolation)

----

I studied biology and for the first time I'm really grateful for that, because I understand most of the science talk when it comes to genetics, and virology.

---

They isolated some tissue from people who died in China and found certain sequences that they then decided is the sequence for the virus (RNA - it's like DNA). There is little to no proof for the existence of a virus, other than pictures with electron microscopes of things that look identical to naturally occurring bodies called 'exosomes' (by the way both exosomes and viruses are the same shape and same size and both contain RNA sequences, and their sizes are in billionth of a meter, while all those face make can only stop things from everything that are in the millionth of a meter, making face masks actually useless to stop anything that size)

Exosomes are actually little things that cells excrete when under stress. They absorb poisons and little is known about them. So exosomes themselves aren't dangerous like viruses. And actually not all viruses are bad, as our body is packed with trillions of them, just like we have trillions of healthy bacteria inside us, as well as fungi.

So the thing is that serious doctors (I can post their talks here, but I doubt most of you would listen to them as it's a bit boring to listen for most) .. these doctors say that there is no proof that the RNA sequences they are testing for isn't from existing for exosomes.

I hope people understand a bit better the scientific basis of this conspiracy theory that David Icke struggled with explaining in that video I posted earlier.

Thank you

Edited by 313 Seeker
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6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

If it's really exponential as they say since weeks, then the rates would be millions by now. But now officially the rates is still lower than the flu one in March. It's just passed 100,000 officially today.

You're just ignoring the data by denying exponential growth of coronavirus cases.

See the following link:

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/

Notice the linear data on a logarithmic scale.

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Just now, iCenozoic said:

You're just ignoring the data by denying exponential growth of coronavirus cases.

I'm not ignoring, I'm listening to both sides of the story. Also exponential means we should be having millions either now or in days or maximum weeks. So let's wait and see. Also in terms of actually proving existence of the virus would help to convince people like me.

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Posted (edited)

See the following link:

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/

Notice the linear data on a logarithmic scale.

This is called exponential growth. It's not debatable. 

"If it's really exponential as they say since weeks, then the rates would be millions by now. " - 313 seeker

This^ is a simply false statement.

Edited by iCenozoic
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42 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

If it's really exponential as they say since weeks, then the rates would be millions by now.

Yes, you are right, Absolutely.Everytime,  In every subject. 

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We all saw that exponential curve weeks ago. Can

Just now, iCenozoic said:

See the following link:

https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/

Notice the linear data on a logarithmic scale.

This is called exponential growth. It's not debatable. 

There are no two sides, there is only one side that is factual, and desenting ideas that are simply false.

"If it's really exponential as they say since weeks, then the rates would be millions by now. " - 313 seeker

This^ is a simply false statement.

That is not even a curve but a straight line. I actually saw graphs showing a real exponential curve a week or two ago. So don't worry. If this is true, then as I said in a matter of another week or two max we'll cross the million line at least. Can somebody make an exponential curve of where we are and show me I'm wrong?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

We all saw that exponential curve weeks ago.  I actually saw graphs showing a real exponential curve a week or two ago.

 

That is not even a curve but a straight line. 

Ok, go read up on logarithmic scales and exponential growth and get back to me. I suspect someone has slept through their highschool math classes.

Edited by iCenozoic
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29 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

the effects of rolling out 5G which has bad effects on soft tissue especially respiratory system. 

So you think mobile phone networks are causing these deaths? I'm curious - how are you accessing shiachat? Obviously you only allow wired connections in your household, but do y'all also only have a landline? How quaint! 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

I enjoy a conspiracy theory as much as the next person, and undoubtedly some of them are true, but you need to think about whose life you are risking.

Agreed, this is why I added the quotation to the header of this page showing that people who believe in conspiracy theories may not be following guidance in the real world to stay safe.

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5 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

Ok, go read up on logarithmic scales and exponential growth and get back to me. I suspect someone has slept through their highschool math classes.

Actually I almost literally did. Most of high school I was high .. 

https___blogs-images.forbes.com_startswithabang_files_2020_03_COVID-19-exponential.png

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5 hours ago, notme said:

So you think mobile phone networks are causing these deaths? I'm curious - how are you accessing shiachat? Obviously you only allow wired connections in your household, but do y'all also only have a landline? How quaint! 

5G is definitely shady and no research has been done on its safety. Had that discussion on facebook already, and I was right that time too .. even though I'm not "always" right

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32 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

Agreed, this is why I added the quotation to the header of this page showing that people who believe in conspiracy theories may not be following guidance in the real world to stay safe.

well we decided not to get lax with precautions until this is confirmed. It's not like we are 100% sure of anything right now. So I would encourage anybody to treat the situation as if it's serious and that there really is a virus (even though there probably isn't  :dwarf:)

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5 hours ago, notme said:

I recommend Khan academy. 

you can forget it! If I ever study maths, I'll do some vedic mathematics or something not mainstream. I hate the modern maths that teaches "long" division. That means they know there is a shorter one! Really! How mean!

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10 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Guys, this is the hundredth time I see these numbers. Come on! If these are true, then how can this not be a hoax?

gfx_death_comparisons_verify_full.jpg.10c1da100615ac2ec8554766f2ec2558.jpg

please I beg you .. prove these numbers wrong

Indeed brother just look at the numbers.

9 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Two simple questions:

  1. Do you personally know anyone who works in the medical /healthcare field?
  2. If you do, are they reporting business as usual?

1. yes several people

2. yes with sligth difference. This has been very exaggerated by the media.

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3 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

This has been very exaggerated by the media.

So their work is happening just like usual? No change in numbers of people, or how they interact with them or how they safeguard themselves?

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The above video, has the medical practitioner saying:

- that Mortality data includes both confirmed and speculative guesses

- Anybody who gets hospitalized will be tested, and most people tested are not sick. The system are instructing people how to fill in these death certificates. The assumption of the death can be made without testing.

- so even if the Dr.. assumes that it contributed, it gets counted in the databank as COVID-19 death, even if the person dies of something else.

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16 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

So their work is happening just like usual? No change in numbers of people, or how they interact with them or how they safeguard themselves?

yes pretty much the same. Just wear little more protection and stay cautious for the unknown since nobody really knows what to expect. Number of people have decreased both patients and nurses/doctors. Patients because they are scared of getting infected while in the hospital, specially in the emergency department where the numbers of visits have dropped significantly. And nurses/doctors decreased because some are scared because they might spread it to their families. But no, there is no shortage of doctors/nurses, atleast where I live.

Majority of the convid infection are elders that are being threated. Many nurses actually where infected without knowing they where infected and without any signifant health issues.

Now I give the same questions to you brother. Do you know anyone working in the hospital with covd infected people? what have they told you about the situation?

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