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In the Name of God بسم الله

Celebrating Christmas?

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

If they respect you as a person due to your personal merits you not participating in their Christmas may not exactly invalidate Christmas in their minds, but will at the very least create confusion in their minds regarding Christmas. At the very least they won’t take it for granted that the whole world celebrates Christmas, as many Westerners seem to think. On the other hand, you participating in Christmas will serve to validate it in their minds. Seeing a Muslim celebrating Christmas sends a very wrong message that we are okay with their pagan festival.

What does it say about a society that makes people outcasts simply for not celebrating Christmas?

It’s better to be an outcast from such a society anyways. It’s better to have honor and follow Islam than seek validation from society. That’s the essential message of the Quran in a nutshell by the way.

And to a certain degree, I argue that Muslims should be detached from mainstream society, for the purpose of protecting our separate identity and to avoid assimilation.

And how is not participating in Christmas “threatening” in any way? Ironic that you accuse me of crazy talk.

I fail to see how people will become more interested in Islam if they see Muslims, like pretty much everyone else, celebrating Christmas. Muslims don’t stand out from the crowd by celebrating Christmas. Interest is sparked by being different from the crowd.

This is simply wrong on so many levels.

"Confusion on their mind" is created a lot more when I tell them that I revere Hz. Isa instead of rejecting their invitation outright.

It speaks highly of a society that due to my beliefs they dont invite me to Happy Hours and always, 100% of the time ensure there are halal items for me to consume at their Christmas/Holiday party. They've gone as far out as ordering halal turkey just for me.

As shias, we are dead against putting a gun against peoples head and forcing them to convert to Islam. Instead of wearing short pants and having long un-kept beards, try to emulate the salient aspects of the Sunnah such as good manners, iklaq, etc.

11 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

And to a certain degree, I argue that Muslims should be detached from mainstream society, for the purpose of protecting our separate identity and to avoid assimilation.

And how is not participating in Christmas “threatening” in any way? Ironic that you accuse me of crazy talk.

If you want to talk about irrational fear of Muslims (Islamophobia), I think the first example isn’t that Muslims don’t celebrate Christmas, it is other things like hijab/burqa, Halal meat, animal sacrifice on Eid al-Qurban, mega-mosques complete with minarets, infant male circumcision, young Muslim males keeping facial hair, wearing kufis and thobes in public, not shaking hands with the opposite gender, and so forth. Should we abandon all these things too simply because non-Muslims may have an irrational fear or feel threatened by them?

I fail to see how people will become more interested in Islam if they see Muslims, like pretty much everyone else, celebrating Christmas. Muslims don’t stand out from the crowd by celebrating Christmas. Interest is sparked by being different from the crowd.

In that case, why live in the West? Shouldnt you move to Saudi Arabia or Ludhiana?

By taking the first step towards Christians, we break down the barriers of hijab, halal, beard, etc. Their fear is not irrational. When salafis (you call kharjees) keep shouting "Allahu Akbar" and blowing stuff up, it does create a fearful mindset. Heck, I will be scared if I hear "Allah Akbar" loudly on a plane.

You fail to see a lot of things Cherry - remeber the whole when...then conversation.

17 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Perhaps you should also start praying to statues of the Virgin Mary in a chapel with your Christian friends, on Christmas, Easter and other times of the year, to make up for the tarnished image of Islam in their minds due to Kharijite terrorism around the world.

It would generate a lot of brotherhood if you visit the chapel from time to time and kneel before a statue of the Virgin Mary and light some candles in her honor, along with burning some incense to the Christian god Jesus?

I dont have to pray in Churches but I have been in them for inter-faith dialogue among other things - nothing wrong with it at all.

19 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

It seems your concept of Tabarra is only reserved for the Prophet’s Companions and Wives رضى الله عنهم but not for non-Muslims and their false religions.

Well, no Christians persecuted the AhlulBayt so there is that...

21 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

This explains why we Sunni Muslims regard the Shi'ah as, how should I put it, not exactly Muslims of an equal footing.

Your opinion of shias is completely irrelevant. You can call me a kafir and it will have no impact on it whatsoever. And you are correct, we are not Muslims of an equal footing. Those who treat Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a part-time Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who made mistakes cannot be compared to the lofty shiahs who are the true followers of Muhammad and his AhlulBayt.

To put it another way, "Yazid Zindabad" aka Yazidis and "Hussain Zindabad" aka Hussainis have no comparison.

 

25 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I’m not against it, but like I said, we Muslims should be socially detached and maintain some distance from non-Muslims.

Funnily enough, you are also the one advocating peace with Israel. Perhaps you should move to Saudi and teach real Islam. You have been on ShiaChat long enough to have learned a few things about true islam

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It is totally haram to celebrate Christmas for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is a non-Muslim festival and it hasn’t been legislated in our Shari’ah. Participating in non-Muslim religious festivals

So Hz. Isa wasn't actually born on Dec 25th. I wish my Christian friends Merry Christmas. Sometimes there is a gift exchange at work and I participate in that too. Thats about it. Definitely

David - you are always welcome just like you are welcome on ShiaChat. BTW, this is not a Shiah vs Sunni issue. I have met shiahs who think like Cherry as well. With the adage that "Man is ei

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22 minutes ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam brother, 

By your logic you must be living in a middle-eastern nation.... but I double checked and saw your location to be in Canada. Based off of your logic, if you're a Canadian citizen that means you have actually agreed to adhere to living in a multicultural society, under a Christian influenced legal system. and to adhere to her majesty ( the Queen). essentially you are supporting the government, and everything that they do.  . this is all very VERY un-islamic and not part of the Shariah..... 

 

 

The hypocrisy comes out when the kiss the $$$ on one side and then spit on the other side.

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25 minutes ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam brother, 

By your logic you must be living in a middle-eastern nation.... but I double checked and saw your location to be in Canada. Based off of your logic, if you're a Canadian citizen that means you have actually agreed to adhere to living in a multicultural society, under a Christian influenced legal system. and to adhere to her majesty ( the Queen). essentially you are supporting the government, and everything that they do.  . this is all very VERY un-islamic and not part of the Shariah..... 

Well, I was born in Canada and am a Canadian citizen. It’s not like I have a choice to obey, what you call, “Christian influenced legal system”.

But the truth is our legal system has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity doesn’t have a legal system, just some basic moral teachings, unlike Islam which does have a comprehensive legal system called Shari’ah.

The Canadian legal system is totally secular and has nothing to do with any religion, Christianity or otherwise.

As for living in a multicultural society, there’s nothing wrong with it from an Islamic perspective, strictly speaking. Islam is a religion not a culture.

It is true that as a Canadian citizen I am obliged to obey her majesty’s government, but that isn’t against Islam either, strictly speaking. Islam teaches us to obey all temporal authority, until and unless that obedience requires disobedience to Allah, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

لَا طَاعَةَ لِمَخْلُوقٍ فِي مَعْصِيَةِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ

there is no obedience to the creation in disobedience to Allah”

So if her majesty commands me to come to a complete stop at a red light, I am obliged to hear and obey, but if she commands me to celebrate Christmas, I must politely decline her commandment, even if it means imprisonment.

Fortunately for me, her majesty ايدها رب تعالى بنصره العزيز is a true secularist and doesn’t command such things that are clearly contrary to Islam.

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9 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

It speaks highly of a society that due to my beliefs they dont invite me to Happy Hours and always, 100% of the time ensure there are halal items for me to consume at their Christmas/Holiday party. They've gone as far out as ordering halal turkey just for me.

It’s called the psychology of guilting, and you’ve swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

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As shias, we are dead against putting a gun against peoples head and forcing them to convert to Islam.

Who is forcing anyone to convert at gunpoint? How did we jump from not participating in Christmas = forcing people to convert to Islam at gunpoint?

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In that case, why live in the West? Shouldnt you move to Saudi Arabia or Ludhiana?

Why do you assume the West, or at least North America, is Christian when it’s not? Yes, the population is predominantly Christian, but also significantly non-religious. The State, however, is totally secular. Not only is it secular, it encourages multiculturalism.

Does living in the West mean we have to participate in everything that is done by the broader society? Why have you adapted the “when in Rome” mentality?

By the way, if I could move to Saudi Arabia I probably would. Not sure about Ludhiana though, I’d rather live with Christians and Jews than Sikhs and Hindus.

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By taking the first step towards Christians, we break down the barriers of hijab, halal, beard, etc.

Why should such barriers be broken down?

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Their fear is not irrational. When salafis (you call kharjees) keep shouting "Allahu Akbar" and blowing stuff up, it does create a fearful mindset. Heck, I will be scared if I hear "Allah Akbar" loudly on a plane.

When was the last time you heard someone shouting Allahu Akbar on a flight?

Kharijite terrorism, which has been waning for some time now, is predominantly directed against Muslims anyways, both Sunnis and Shi’ah. That’s why we call them Kharijites, like the original Khawarij, they direct their violence predominantly against other Muslims they regard as apostates and collaborators.

Most non-Muslims have moved past the stage of viewing Muslims as potential terrorist about to explode any minute. Their Islamophobia is much more sophisticated than that, it has more to do with our social and cultural differences, differences you obviously want to obfuscate at the expense of our Shari’ah and our identity.

BTW, after the defeat of Daesh, the whole “Islam is violent and dangerous” anti-Muslim narrative has shifted its target to Iran and her Shi’ite proxies - which are actually involved in terrorism. Now it's we Sunnis that have to disassociate from violent Shi'ite extremism to put many non-Muslims at ease because of the whole "guilty by association" thing.

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I dont have to pray in Churches but I have been in them for inter-faith dialogue among other things - nothing wrong with it at all.

Well, that’s your choice. I for one would sooner step foot in a bar for “happy hour” as you call it than step foot in a church.

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Funnily enough, you are also the one advocating peace with Israel. Perhaps you should move to Saudi and teach real Islam. You have been on ShiaChat long enough to have learned a few things about true islam

You’re mixing politics, or more accurately geopolitics, with social issues. The geopolitics of Muslims is constantly changing and updating in light of our interests and the need for peaceful co-existence. But the social values of Islam are permanent and can’t be amended.

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Fortunately for me, her majesty ايدها رب تعالى بنصره العزيز is a true secularist and doesn’t command such things that are clearly contrary to Islam.

You show your hypocrisy just by calling Lizzie "her majesty". #NotMyQueen.

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

It’s called the psychology of guilting, and you’ve swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Who is forcing anyone to convert at gunpoint? How did we jump from not participating in Christmas = forcing people to convert to Islam at gunpoint?

Why do you assume the West, or at least North America, is Christian when it’s not? Yes, the population is predominantly Christian, but also significantly non-religious. The State, however, is totally secular. Not only is it secular, it encourages multiculturalism.

Does living in the West mean we have to participate in everything that is done by the broader society? Why have you adapted the “when in Rome” mentality?

By the way, if I could move to Saudi Arabia I probably would. Not sure about Ludhiana though, I’d rather live with Christians and Jews than Sikhs and Hindus.

Why should such barriers be broken down?

When was the last time you heard someone shouting Allahu Akbar on a flight?

Kharijite terrorism, which has been waning for some time now, is predominantly directed against Muslims anyways, both Sunnis and Shi’ah. That’s why we call them Kharijites, like the original Khawarij, they direct their violence predominantly against other Muslims they regard as apostates and collaborators.

Most non-Muslims have moved past the stage of viewing Muslims as potential terrorist about to explode any minute. Their Islamophobia is much more sophisticated than that, it has more to do with our social and cultural differences, differences you obviously want to obfuscate at the expense of our Shari’ah and our identity.

BTW, after the defeat of Daesh, the whole “Islam is violent and dangerous” anti-Muslim narrative has shifted its target to Iran and her Shi’ite proxies - which are actually involved in terrorism. Now it's we Sunnis that have to disassociate from violent Shi'ite extremism to put many non-Muslims at ease because of the whole "guilty by association" thing.

Well, that’s your choice. I for one would sooner step foot in a bar for “happy hour” as you call it than step foot in a church.

You’re mixing politics, or more accurately geopolitics, with social issues. The geopolitics of Muslims is constantly changing and updating in light of our interests and the need for peaceful co-existence. But the social values of Islam are permanent and can’t be amended.

So let me get this right - UAE, Bahrain, Saudi, Omam, etc. can capitulate to Israel at the expense of their Muslim brothers but as Muslims we should not be friendly towards Christians.

It speaks volumes about your mindset that you would rather step in a bar than a Church. It's the weakness and shallowness of the Sunni ideology that creates this belief.

Other than US, no country thinks of Iran as a terrorist regime. You are simply upset that Iran as it turns out is a much better Muslim country than the bastion of Sunnidom - Saudi Arabia.

I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of my colleagues - they are not Sunni.

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1 minute ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You show your hypocrisy just by calling Lizzie "her majesty". #NotMyQueen.

Well duh she’s not your queen, you’re an American, your head of state is Donald Trump.

As a Canadian citizen, my head of state is Queen Elizabeth II.

And it wasn’t I who called her “majesty” but your friend @YoungSkiekh313

4 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So let me get this right - UAE, Bahrain, Saudi, Omam, etc. can capitulate to Israel at the expense of their Muslim brothers but as Muslims we should not be friendly towards Christians.

That’s a political discussion. Personally, I think it’s good to make peace with Israel, and that is by no means capitulation or sacrificing the Palestinians.

There’s no problem with being friendly to Christians, as long as we don’t actually regard them as friends, because Allah says not to take Jews and Christians as friends. Therefore, befriend them at your own risk.

6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

It speaks volumes about your mindset that you would rather step in a bar than a Church. It's the weakness and shallowness of the Sunni ideology that creates this belief.

It speaks volumes about your mindset that you would rather step into a church than a bar.

To me, both are places of filth and portals to Hell. But the demons calling to the door of the bar are less cunning and dangerous than the one’s calling to the doors of the church. In a bar, you will commit sin, but in a church you are in danger of losing your faith altogether. The worst sin is idolatry, not drinking, dancing or whatever else it is they do in a bar (alhamdulillah I’ve never been inside one to date).

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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Well duh she’s not your queen, you’re an American, your head of state is Donald Trump.

As a Canadian citizen, my head of state is Queen Elizabeth II.

And it wasn’t I who called her “majesty” but your friend @YoungSkiekh313

That’s a political discussion. Personally, I think it’s good to make peace with Israel, and that is by no means capitulation or sacrificing the Palestinians.

There’s no problem with being friendly to Christians, as long as we don’t actually regard them as friends, because Allah says not to take Jews and Christians as friends. Therefore, befriend them at your own risk.

It speaks volumes about your mindset that you would rather step into a church than a bar.

To me, both are places of filth and portals to Hell. But the demons calling to the door of the bar are less cunning and dangerous than the one’s calling to the doors of the church. In a bar, you will commit sin, but in a church you are in danger of losing your faith altogether. The worst sin is idolatry, not drinking, dancing or whatever else it is they do in a bar (alhamdulillah I’ve never been inside one to date).

Just wanted to rile you up, and eat popcorn from the background :grin: . You've done your job , this has been an entertaining discussion. Good on @ShiaMan14 

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44 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Well duh she’s not your queen, you’re an American, your head of state is Donald Trump.

As a Canadian citizen, my head of state is Queen Elizabeth II.

And it wasn’t I who called her “majesty” but your friend @YoungSkiekh313

That’s a political discussion. Personally, I think it’s good to make peace with Israel, and that is by no means capitulation or sacrificing the Palestinians.

There’s no problem with being friendly to Christians, as long as we don’t actually regard them as friends, because Allah says not to take Jews and Christians as friends. Therefore, befriend them at your own risk.

It speaks volumes about your mindset that you would rather step into a church than a bar.

To me, both are places of filth and portals to Hell. But the demons calling to the door of the bar are less cunning and dangerous than the one’s calling to the doors of the church. In a bar, you will commit sin, but in a church you are in danger of losing your faith altogether. The worst sin is idolatry, not drinking, dancing or whatever else it is they do in a bar (alhamdulillah I’ve never been inside one to date).

Sunnis fear demons, shiahs destroy them.

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2 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Sunnis fear demons, shiahs destroy them.

 

47 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Well duh she’s not your queen, you’re an American, your head of state is Donald Trump.

As a Canadian citizen, my head of state is Queen Elizabeth II.

I used to live in England and even back then #NotMyQueen.

Sunnis are obligated to follow corrupt leaders, we are not.

Happy Yom Kippur 

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12 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I used to live in England and even back then #NotMyQueen.

Sunnis are obligated to follow corrupt leaders, we are not.

Happy Yom Kippur 

Not follow, but obey.

And I suppose you don’t obey the U.S. Government? You don’t obey President Trump?

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30 minutes ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Don't forget about me! May Allah guide me as well, and inshallah shower his mercy upon me. 

You reminded me of the Jews who used to deliberately sneeze in the presence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم hoping he would say يرحمك الله but instead he said, and I will say for you too يهديكم الله ويصلح بالكم

May Allah guide you and set your affairs in order (Amin)

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6 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

You reminded me of the Jews who used to deliberately sneeze in the presence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم hoping he would say يرحمك الله but instead he said, and I will say for you too يهديكم الله ويصلح بالكم

May Allah guide you and set your affairs in order (Amin)

What a strange comparison, I just saw that you sent blessings upon @ShiaMan14, and wanted some of the blessings too? Unless it was not sincere? 

Luckily, I am not deliberately sneezing in the presence of my holy prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).  

However, thanks for the well wishes, may Allah set your affairs in order too brother! 

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Hi there - I've really found reading through this thread interesting!  Especially as a Follower of Jesus who is looking forward to celebrating Christmas!

I recognise that Jesus wasn't born on 25th December and that the early Christians who came to England transformed a pagan festival from worshiping the sun to worshiping the Son (I like that comment - thank you!)  The idea of God coming to earth to bring light into the darkness is a central theme of our faith so a "winter festival" as the days start to lengthen makes sense.  It is a shame that our increasing secular nations have rejected the Christian dimension and focused on the sometimes very non-Christian aspects of parties, materialism and revelry.

Because both Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah announced by the Angel Gabriel, I wonder what the big issue is.  Recognising that a prophet was born especial one with the significance of Jesus the Messiah seems to me logical.  But then there doesn't seem to be a big thing about celebrating the birth of the Prophet of Islam.

I don't expect my Muslim friends to celebrate Christmas, but I do appreciate a “Happy Christmas!” just as I wish my Muslim friends “Eid Mubarak!”.  I'm intrigued about your references to hadith and sometimes the Qur'an to justify your positions.  It would seem that there is a vast variety of interpretation.

I wonder what your thoughts are about me as a Follower of Jesus visiting Muslim homes during Eid?  When I lived in a Muslim country, I really looked forward to the Eids with the opportunity to take gifts and visit homes and share in the food and friendship.  Sometimes my neighbours would give me sacrifice meet - should I have accepted it? 

What about Iftar?  Living in a city with a large Muslim presence and having a number of Muslim friends I often get invited to Iftar during Ramadan.  On those days I fast so as to better join with them in their experience. Is it inappropriate for me to attend - sometimes it's in a home but normally it's in a Mosque.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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12 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

You reminded me of the Jews who used to deliberately sneeze in the presence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم hoping he would say يرحمك الله but instead he said, and I will say for you too يهديكم الله ويصلح بالكم

May Allah guide you and set your affairs in order (Amin)

Really Cherry???? You remind me of Jews who fast on Yom Kippur as a celebrating of Moses' victory over Pharoah (or whatever the folklore says).

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi there - I've really found reading through this thread interesting!  Especially as a Follower of Jesus who is looking forward to celebrating Christmas!

 

I recognise that Jesus wasn't born on 25th December and that the early Christians who came to England transformed a pagan festival from worshiping the sun to worshiping the Son (I like that comment - thank you!)  The idea of God coming to earth to bring light into the darkness is a central theme of our faith so a "winter festival" as the days start to lengthen makes sense.  It is a shame that our increasing secular nations have rejected the Christian dimension and focused on the sometimes very non-Christian aspects of parties, materialism and revelry.

 

Because both Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah announced by the Angel Gabriel, I wonder what the big issue is.  Recognising that a prophet was born especial one with the significance of Jesus the Messiah seems to me logical.  But then there doesn't seem to be a big thing about celebrating the birth of the Prophet of Islam.

 

I don't expect my Muslim friends to celebrate Christmas, but I do appreciate a “Happy Christmas!” just as I wish my Muslim friends “Eid Mubarak!”.  I'm intrigued about your references to hadith and sometimes the Qur'an to justify your positions.  It would seem that there is a vast variety of interpretation.

 

I wonder what your thoughts are about me as a Follower of Jesus visiting Muslim homes during Eid?  When I lived in a Muslim country, I really looked forward to the Eids with the opportunity to take gifts and visit homes and share in the food and friendship.  Sometimes my neighbours would give me sacrifice meet - should I have accepted it? 

 

What about Iftar?  Living in a city with a large Muslim presence and having a number of Muslim friends I often get invited to Iftar during Ramadan.  On those days I fast so as to better join with them in their experience. Is it inappropriate for me to attend - sometimes it's in a home but normally it's in a Mosque.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

David - you are always welcome just like you are welcome on ShiaChat.

BTW, this is not a Shiah vs Sunni issue. I have met shiahs who think like Cherry as well.

With the adage that "Man is either your brother in faith or brother in humanity" - Imam Ali (عليه السلام), it is always good to let a brother know that even though even though we have disagreements, we can still all get along.

Me exchanging gifts on Christmas is not going to make me Christian as much as me not exchanging gifts will make you Muslim. I get "Eid Mubarak" greetings from my well wishers all the time. A couple of my friends wanted to partake in iftar and actually fasted to get the full impact.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Thanks.

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40 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

David - you are always welcome just like you are welcome on ShiaChat.

BTW, this is not a Shiah vs Sunni issue. I have met shiahs who think like Cherry as well.

With the adage that "Man is either your brother in faith or brother in humanity" - Imam Ali (عليه السلام), it is always good to let a brother know that even though even though we have disagreements, we can still all get along.

Me exchanging gifts on Christmas is not going to make me Christian as much as me not exchanging gifts will make you Muslim. I get "Eid Mubarak" greetings from my well wishers all the time. A couple of my friends wanted to partake in iftar and actually fasted to get the full impact.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Thanks.

Completely agree,  you have both Shia, and Sunni's that have the mindset of "cherry", who want to completely isolate Islam from the world, completely rule out interfaith dialogue, and just give Islam a bad rep (which kind of sums of Sunnism).

Cherry most likely has the mindset of "if you aren't muslims, you're 100% going to hell", which isn't true based on the Quran, and traditions of the prophet/Imams ( again sums of Sunnism ). 

I, and many Shia, and many Sunni members actually want to build relationships with other faiths within our community. Not only does this shed a positive light on Islam, but enables us to coexist, and fulfill our duties to God. 

Anyways, I can tell Cherry takes the Quran very literally, and almost mistook him for a wahabbi. Of course if you don't have rightly guided Imams these things happen. BUT, I do like how Cherry sends us blessings such as "may allah guide you", or " may allah set your affairs in order" love my Sunni brothers for all these nice well wishes. Wish the Shia could send such nice blessings!!!!

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17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

To me, both are places of filth and portals to Hell. But the demons calling to the door of the bar are less cunning and dangerous than the one’s calling to the doors of the church.

:salam:

الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِم بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّـهُ ۗ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّـهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّـهِ كَثِيرًا ۗ وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّـهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ ﴿٤٠

(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

 

Better read more Quran before taking such conclusions. 

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11 minutes ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

BUT, I do like how Cherry sends us blessings such as "may allah guide you", or " may allah set your affairs in order" love my Sunni brothers for all these nice well wishes. Wish the Shia could send such nice blessings!!!!

Cherry's blessings are good but incomplete.

May Allah bless you and set your affairs in order for the sake of and in the name of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his AhlulBayt (عليه السلام).

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Really Cherry???? You remind me of Jews who fast on Yom Kippur as a celebrating of Moses' victory over Pharoah (or whatever the folklore says).

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم fasted on Ashura/Yom Kippur, as I have proven from your own Hadith in Tahdhib al-Ahkam.

Did the blessed Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ever celebrate Christmas or wish anyone “merry Christmas”?

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1 hour ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Completely agree,  you have both Shia, and Sunni's that have the mindset of "cherry", who want to completely isolate Islam from the world, completely rule out interfaith dialogue, and just give Islam a bad rep (which kind of sums of Sunnism).

What is interfaith dialogue and what is it’s objective?

Then what does celebrating Christmas have to do with interfaith dialogue?

Islam is an exclusivist religion, it rejects omnism.

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

What is interfaith dialogue and what is it’s objective?

Then what does celebrating Christmas have to do with interfaith dialogue?

Islam is an exclusivist religion, it rejects omnism.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-8-no-3-4/fast-ashura-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/fast-ashura ( in regards to fasting on Ashura). 

And I quote " You reminded me of the Jews who used to deliberately sneeze in the presence of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم hoping he would say يرحمك الله but instead he said, and I will say for you too يهديكم الله ويصلح بالكم

May Allah guide you and set your affairs in order (Amin)

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3 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Because both Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah announced by the Angel Gabriel, I wonder what the big issue is.  Recognising that a prophet was born especial one with the significance of Jesus the Messiah seems to me logical.  But then there doesn't seem to be a big thing about celebrating the birth of the Prophet of Islam.

I don't expect my Muslim friends to celebrate Christmas, but I do appreciate a “Happy Christmas!” just as I wish my Muslim friends “Eid Mubarak!”.  I'm intrigued about your references to hadith and sometimes the Qur'an to justify your positions.  It would seem that there is a vast variety of interpretation.

From an Islamic perspective, Christmas can never be divorced from its pagan roots – roots you yourself have acknowledged. Therefore, it is extremely dangerous for Muslims to participate in something that gives off the stench of paganism to say the very least.

Ask yourself why eating food offered in the name of an idol is forbidden. After all, it’s just food, there’s nothing wrong with eating. But the association of that food with idolatry changes everything. You may think for a Muslim to wish a Christian “merry Christmas” is harmless and merely a gesture of courtesy, but we have to reflect on what the implications of those words really are and would it be pleasing to our God, whom your own Bible describes as a very jealous God Who is extremely sensitive in such matters.

You’ve probably read the Bible, especially the Five Books of Moses. Look at all those laws (613 supposedly), how many of them are devoted to prohibitions on doing things that resemble paganism? Heck, you can’t even have a haircut that is pagan in origin (shaving the sides of the heads – which strangely enough has become the hallmark of Christian monks). I realize that for Christians the Law of Moses is no longer applicable, but we Muslims have a similar Law, the Law of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم which is as strict as the Law of Moses in these matters.

Now that I have explained the religious aspect, let me explain the social aspect.

Muslims are not exactly like the Amish, Mennonites or Haredim. We do believe in living in society and not total isolationism. But we aren’t meant to be completely involved in the world either. Instead, treading the middle path between these two extremes. Isolationism insofar as it is a means to protect one’s Faith from harmful effects of a corrupt society is encouraged in Islam. That is why we have religious institutions of Hijrah (emigration to a Muslim abode) and Uzla (withdrawal from society).

As Muslims who are a minority community in the Western world, we have to be extra cautious about not assimilating into the mainstream society so as to preserve our Religion and our identity, especially for posterity. One of the ways to maintain the distinction is the festivals and holidays that are celebrated. One of the functions of festivals and holy days is to delineate communities. If everyone celebrated the same festivals communal distinctions would become blurred. Many of the laws and teachings of Islam are meant to reinforce Muslims as a separate and distinct community.

3 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I wonder what your thoughts are about me as a Follower of Jesus visiting Muslim homes during Eid?  When I lived in a Muslim country, I really looked forward to the Eids with the opportunity to take gifts and visit homes and share in the food and friendship.  Sometimes my neighbours would give me sacrifice meet - should I have accepted it? 

What about Iftar?  Living in a city with a large Muslim presence and having a number of Muslim friends I often get invited to Iftar during Ramadan.  On those days I fast so as to better join with them in their experience. Is it inappropriate for me to attend - sometimes it's in a home but normally it's in a Mosque.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I cannot presume to tell you what to do. Since you are not a Muslim I have no say in how you practise your own religion and what you do in your life. If I was to counsel you on anything it would only be inviting you to embrace our Faith. How you practise Christianity and what your religion deems fit for you is none of my business.

I have no problem with Christians wishing us Eid mubarak or participating in breaking the fast with us in Ramadan. Of course, I appreciate the sentiment. But I don’t like the idea that because many Christians such as yourself are liberal enough to participate with Muslims in this manner, somehow Muslims are expected to reciprocate and participate in Christmas celebrations. As I am not offended in the least if a Christian doesn’t participate in Ramadan or doesn’t wish me Eid mubarak, why should they be offended if I don’t participate in Christmas or say “merry Christmas”?

Muslims and Christians should co-exist in the secular world peacefully. We can co-exist at the workplace for example, but when it comes to our religions, we ought to remain separate and follow our own different paths. Neither should Muslims be expected to visit a church nor Christians expected to attend a mosque.

Finally, there are some Muslims, albeit an extreme minority, who are extremely zealous when it comes to contact with non-Muslims to the extent they may even regard them as physically unclean and won’t even touch them to avoid contamination. Although I do not follow this particular school of thought, I respect it as valid and can understand the underline sentiment which motivates it. Such Muslims would obviously never invite a non-Muslim to their home, and would definitely never agree to dining with them at the same table. There are some Hadith which state that a Muslim has to ritually wash a utensil that was used by a Christian or Zoroastrian or non-Muslim in general before eating or drinking from it.

Hence, there are some Muslims who won’t even handshake with a non-Muslim (I suspect this will become more socially acceptable after Covid).

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I recall a few years ago the Islamic Centre of England screened a showing of the Iranian produced film St. Mary. A number of Christian clerics were there to watch it. I think it was around Christmas.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم fasted on Ashura/Yom Kippur, as I have proven from your own Hadith in Tahdhib al-Ahkam.

For a person who doesn't know when "fasting on Ashura" was prescribed and why, you haven't proven anything other than copy'n'paste skills.

 

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Islam is an exclusivist religion, it rejects omnism.

 

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Muslims are not exactly like the Amish, Mennonites or Haredim. We do believe in living in society and not total isolationism.

 

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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I love Wikipedia

Liar liar pants on fire - I remember you telling someone not to use Wikipedia as a source.

39 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Apparently you aren’t aware of the difference between exclusivism and isolationism.

I was merely pointing out that because you live in a multi-cultural society, by default you are not exclusive. For example, are you off work/school/etc. on Dec 25th and Jan 1st? If yes, then you are adopting Christian practices hence not exclusive :) 

I can be as absurd about this as you.

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31 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Liar liar pants on fire - I remember you telling someone not to use Wikipedia as a source.

My man you should have realized by now how careful and nuanced I am with my words.

When did I use Wikipedia as a source? I said I love Wikipedia, I never used it as a source, check my 1,491 posts, did I once quote Wikipedia as a source except one time to prove the Wikipedia entry for Muhammad Husain Najafi (Dhaku) is different to the entry for Bashir Najafi in my conversation with Ashvazdanghe.

34 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I was merely pointing out that because you live in a multi-cultural society, by default you are not exclusive. For example, are you off work/school/etc. on Dec 25th and Jan 1st? If yes, then you are adopting Christian practices hence not exclusive :) 

I can be as absurd about this as you.

Now I’m going to have to explain what exclusivism is as it relates to religion:

Quote

Religious exclusivism, or exclusivity, is the doctrine or belief that only one particular religion or belief system is true

Source: William J. Wainwright (2005). The Oxford handbook of philosophy of religion. Oxford University Press. p. 345. ISBN 978-0-19-513809-2.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

My man you should have realized by now how careful and nuanced I am with my words.

When did I use Wikipedia as a source? I said I love Wikipedia, I never used it as a source, check my 1,491 posts, did I once quote Wikipedia as a source except one time to prove the Wikipedia entry for Muhammad Husain Najafi (Dhaku) is different to the entry for Bashir Najafi in my conversation with Ashvazdanghe.

This is such a sunni answer.

yeah, you may be a nuanced writer but you are a horrible reader.

I never said you used Wikipedia. I said i remember you telling someone not to use Wikipedia. Just to be clear, you love Wikipedia but don't recommend anyone use it. Very sunni of you.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Religious exclusivism, or exclusivity, is the doctrine or belief that only one particular religion or belief system is true

Source: William J. Wainwright (2005). The Oxford handbook of philosophy of religion. Oxford University Press. p. 345. ISBN 978-0-19-513809-2.

All Muslims believe Islam is the one true religion. But if you are so true to Islam, why do you take the day off on Dec 25. I would insist on working to send the message that Christmas has no meaning.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

I said I love Wikipedia, I never used it as a source, check my 1,491 posts, did I once quote Wikipedia as a source

The above (bold italics) came from Wikipedia.

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