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In the Name of God بسم الله

Should there be any change in way of Mourning


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  • Development Team
2 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

It is already in Quran ,why don't you understand. Most of the laws in Quran needs Islamic government for implementation and that what holy Prophet saw did.

When Imam Hussain saw that Islamic government is getting deviated and sunnah is getting charged he opposed it.

So it clearly indicates what is importance of Islamic government.

 

Love pa%87,%%37%tpqprqqrqqryh

Forget everything. Just get me one narration where Imam (عليه السلام) ask us fallible humans to establish Islamic government. 

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I am going to make an observation that will not sit well with a lot of people - what else is new? Respectfully as a general rule, if you have been doing azadari for at least 10 years, keep your o

With the absent of divine Imam (عليه السلام) you are not going to find a True Islamic Government . So with absent of Imam (عليه السلام) How do purpose an Islamic government ? What is  your  definition

Forget the rituals side of Azadari for a moment, (even though Rituals  will become  core part of this discussion) Mourning for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is universally accepted by all branches of fai

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11 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Forget everything. Just get me one narration where Imam (عليه السلام) ask us fallible humans to establish Islamic government. 

Sorry I can't help you.

Ones it is already in quran, isn't Allahs order enough.

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Forget everything. Just get me one narration where Imam (عليه السلام) ask us fallible humans to establish Islamic government. 

Good question brother. Whether such a narration exists, I don't know. What we do find is the following from Kitab al Kaafi (page 295 of volume 8)

 عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ الْمُخْتَارِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ كُلُّ رَايَةٍ تُرْفَعُ قَبْلَ قِيَامِ الْقَائِمِ فَصَاحِبُهَا طَاغُوتٌ يُعْبَدُ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ

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I don't want to say that this necessarily applies to the governments of Iran but at least it would be interesting to hear their explanation or understanding of this hadith. 

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23 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Good question brother. Whether such a narration exists, I don't know. What we do find is the following from Kitab al Kaafi (page 295 of volume 8)

 عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ الْمُخْتَارِ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ كُلُّ رَايَةٍ تُرْفَعُ قَبْلَ قِيَامِ الْقَائِمِ فَصَاحِبُهَا طَاغُوتٌ يُعْبَدُ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ

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I don't want to say that this necessarily applies to the governments of Iran but at least it would be interesting to hear their explanation or understanding of this hadith. 

I had this narration in back of my mind but thought our brother might provide something if he's so insisting. 

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6 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Okay, get me the verse if it is already in Qur'an. 

Is their any Quranic law.

How many Quranic laws your government implements.

Are the things which quran has bannedy your country also banned.

Are punishment that  Quran precribes for crimes implemented by your judiciary.

Did your nation suppprts the oppressed nation or supports oppressor.

And so on and so forth.à

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15 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I'm not for or against tatbir. I'm for whatever my marja says. Those who perform tatbir have permission from their marja and no one should have any problem with it. Regarding bid'ah, it is not you or me to decide what is bidah and what isn't. Again, everyone should turn to their marja. 

You are counting tatbir as bidah and cultural because it is not in the traditions but you are not saying same for hitting back with chains (Irani style), why? Either both should be bidah or both should be fine. Please make up your mind. 

Okay I understand your view. All I’m saying if harming is involved I think it’s wrong. Me 

if Iranian style are harming themselves I don’t like that and I find that wrong too. So are you saying walking on coal is fine because no marja has said or given a fatwa regarding walking on coal? You got to know right from wrong as well. 
 

no disrespect I’m probably not making sense or not understanding you. 

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1 hour ago, Ali2196 said:

Okay I understand your view. All I’m saying if harming is involved I think it’s wrong. Me 

if Iranian style are harming themselves I don’t like that and I find that wrong too. So are you saying walking on coal is fine because no marja has said or given a fatwa regarding walking on coal? You got to know right from wrong as well. 
 

no disrespect I’m probably not making sense or not understanding you. 

Islam particularly school of  Ahlebayt as is logical and appealing to mind. That any sound person have any reason to oppose.

Regarding Tatbeer or walking on fire makes no sense rather it demages the School of Ahlebayt as.

I know how Shia muslim mock on sofi practices and call it illogical .

So every reasonable person has will criticise our actions of Tatbeer and walking on fire. That too when non of Imams have done.

May be understanding why Imam Hussain sacrificed his life will be more appropriate to attain Imams and Allah's happiness.

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On 9/21/2020 at 10:26 PM, power said:

In the UK where I reside, I have the freedom to  speak freely about my faith, without being persecuted or being killed, many other Religious domination have opportunities to have inter- faith dialogues with Shia faith,  Alhumidillah we had many conversion over the Years, 

This good to here that there are many conversations. But I feel There must be a change in how we observe muhaarram. It's practice should not be superstitions and illogical custumes.

Rather time demands we should move forward and convey the real cause and goal of Sacrifice of Imam Hussain as 

Just limitting it to mourning or doing illogical activities like running on fire is not justice.

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On 9/22/2020 at 11:52 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Forget everything. Just get me one narration where Imam (عليه السلام) ask us fallible humans to establish Islamic government. 

You are wrong.There should be joint effort of Sunni and shia to implement and follow Islamic teachings. And remove all non Islamic laws from muslim nations .

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47 minutes ago, islam25 said:

This good to here that there are many conversations. But I feel There must be a change in how we observe muhaarram. It's practice should not be superstitions and illogical custumes.

Rather time demands we should move forward and convey the real cause and goal of Sacrifice of Imam Hussain as 

Just limitting it to mourning or doing illogical activities like running on fire is not justice.

My friend mourning in my view sends a message on many levels. It is our mourning that people of other faiths wants to understand why Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) fought Against Yazeed (Lan) Its our Mourning that people gets to know about Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

It our Mourning that truth is prevailed, Its our Mourning that gives hope to oppressors, its our Mourning people understand Shia faith. Its our Mourning that Tawheed is understood.

Therefore to reform Mourning is not a practice that you can change.

 

 

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On 9/21/2020 at 10:56 PM, power said:

From a Shia perspective, I truly believe we have achieved incredible grounds across the globe in in promoting the true message  of Quran and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) Inshallah under the banner of Quran and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) we have  prepared people to fight for justice and oppression Inshallah. 

Yes, Shias achieved a good respect in spreading Quranic message.

But we should be cautious that un-Islamic custum should enter in our mourning, that we forget the goal of sacrifice of Imam Hussain and only remember mourning and custums.

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26 minutes ago, power said:

My friend mourning in my view sends a message on many levels. It is our mourning that people of other faiths wants to understand why Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) fought Against Yazeed (Lan) Its our Mourning that people gets to know about Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

It our Mourning that truth is prevailed, Its our Mourning that gives hope to oppressors, its our Mourning people understand Shia faith. Its our Mourning that Tawheed is understood.

Therefore to reform Mourning is not a practice that you can change.

 

 

By changing I mean illogical custums like walking on fire or Tatbeer should be stopped.Since non logical and educated person will like it.Nor any Imam has done.

We should mourn in way that the message of Imam is  conveyed in better way and we too should learn from imams sacrifice what Intended to convey.

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26 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Yes, Shias achieved a good respect in spreading Quranic message.

But we should be cautious that un-Islamic custum should enter in our mourning, that we forget the goal of sacrifice of Imam Hussain and only remember mourning and custums.

Different countries across the globe, practise their own unique way of commemorating for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) If you think fire walking is un-islamic thats fine you are entitled to your perspective,   but to tell a nation of Shias in Iraq or  other countries to stop certain practices is not going to happen, and thats the  reality.

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25 minutes ago, power said:

Different countries across the globe, practise their own unique way of commemorating for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) If you think fire walking is un-islamic thats fine you are entitled to your perspective,   but to tell a nation of Shias in Iraq or  other countries to stop certain practices is not going to happen, and thats the  reality.

I dont deny that there are differences according to region of globe how one mourn.

But my concern is that practicing something that is against the normal behaviour.

Ok, tell me  will  any sound mind accept that to please Imam we have to cut our head or body with sharp objests.

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5 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I dont deny that there are differences according to region of globe how one mourn.

But my concern is that practicing something that is against the normal behaviour.

Ok, tell me  will  any sound mind accept that to please Imam we have to cut our head or body with sharp objests.

If you tell people, that Prophet Ibraheim (عليه السلام) was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to cut his son head off, people will question what kind of barbaric god is this? Nauzabillah. 

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1 hour ago, power said:

If you tell people, that Prophet Ibraheim (عليه السلام) was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to cut his son head off, people will question what kind of barbaric god is this? Nauzabillah. 

Who commanded Allah.When Allah commanded even it sounds abnormal but we no authority.

 

Did Allah commanded us to cut our body.

Did Prophet saw commanded.

Did Imam commanded to cut ourselves.

Did any mujtahid ordered to cut ourselves.

Do you think our cutting will proof of our love for Imam.

Do u think that Imam sacrificed his life so that we should cut ourselves with sharp.

In Islam we have to follow what Prophet or Imam did.

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2 hours ago, islam25 said:

Who commanded Allah.When Allah commanded even it sounds abnormal but we no authority.

 

Did Allah commanded us to cut our body.

Did Prophet saw commanded.

Did Imam commanded to cut ourselves.

Did any mujtahid ordered to cut ourselves.

Do you think our cutting will proof of our love for Imam.

Do u think that Imam sacrificed his life so that we should cut ourselves with sharp.

In Islam we have to follow what Prophet or Imam did.

Where in the Quran dose it say: To save Islam it would require  the blood of 6 month old child Ali Asghar (عليه السلام) 

Why didn't the other Imams (عليه السلام) who were oppressed did not sacrifice their families whilst being oppressed, considering Islam continued to go through further changes for the worst.

Why is it that Haq always requires the blood  of the Innocent, Is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  unable to protect his own religion Nouzabillah.

 Shedding blood in rituals practices is symbolic it is a representation.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, power said:

Where in the Quran dose it say: To save Islam it would require  the blood of 6 month old child Ali Asghar (عليه السلام) 

Why didn't the other Imams (عليه السلام) who were oppressed did not sacrifice their families whilst being oppressed, considering Islam continued to go through further changes for the worst.

Why is it that Haq always requires the blood  of the Innocent, Is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  unable to protect his own religion Nouzabillah.

 Shedding blood in rituals practices is symbolic it is a representation.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry' ,  I didn't get what you want to convey.

You are wrong, what you say why other Imams didn't sacrifice. That means other Imams have wronged.

Who said blood shedding is Symbolic representations .

Did any Imam said it is symbolic representation.

If it was really symbolic representation then why would khaminaie would prohibit.

What those who don't shed blood .

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why would khaminaie would prohibit.

fyi, 

Jurists have different opinion on matters, based on their own understanding and intellect. 

Read in its entirety to understand the thought process and line of thinking, and the specific angle of view. reprint of 1994 speech. 

Quote

Tatbir is a wrongful act. I know some might say, “It would have been rightful if he had not talked about tatbir.” They might say, “What would you have to do with Tatbir?”, “Some people practice it, let them do so!” No! One cannot stay silent towards such unlawful actions. If they had propagated tatbir during the blessed auspicious life of Imam Khomeini ((رضي الله عنه))—like they have done over the past four or five years and continue to do—he would certainly speak against it.

It is wrongful that some people hit themselves on the head with daggers to break blood. What are they in search of? How can this be considered an act of mourning? Of course light drumming on the head with one’s own hand is a distinctive sign of mourning. You have seen it several times when people are stricken by grief, they hit own their chests or heads. This is a typical symbol of distress for mourning. But when have you ever seen a person, who is grief stricken by the loss of a dear loved one, take a dagger to their own head in order to draw blood? How can this be a form of mourning?

Tatbir [Qame Zani] is also a fabricated tradition. It is among issues that do not belong to the Islamic religion and undoubtedly God is not pleased with such a practice. Scholars among the last few centuries did not have the opportunity to speak out and declare it as an unlawful or wrongful act. However, today is the day of Islamic establishment and the day for the manifestation of Islam. We should not go along with actions that may introduce a small group of irrational, superstitious individuals to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to be represented as the bulwark of the noble Islamic society--the society that loves the progeny of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and has the honor to carry the names of the Imam of our Time (may our souls be sacrificed for him), Imam Hussain Ibn Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام).

The more I thought about it (tatbir), the more I truly realized I cannot overlook my responsibility of informing our dear people on Tatbir, which is certainly an act of wrongdoing built upon heresy. Do not practice it, I do not approve. If someone does anything to display their desire to practice Tatbir, I will be deeply disappointed in them. I am declaring this solemnly. This is certainly an unlawful action, one which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) would not be pleased with, as practiced today. I cannot fathom who would and based on what evidence would they establish such peculiar and wrongful traditions in Islamic societies and within our revolutionary society?

Tatbir is one of those concerns which not only lacks logical reasoning, but is also the nearest of things to superstition. Why do some promote such things? This is a great danger, which has to be carefully tended to within the world of religion and religious insight by the guardians of the faith.
Like I said, some people will say—certainly out of compassion--that it would have been better if I had not talked about Tatbir. No, I must speak out on it. I must address it. I have a responsibility greater than others and certainly others should talk about it too.

- Ayatollah Khamenei, June 07, 1994

 

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

Here the Vidwo of the Speech in 1994

https://youtu.be/tJTd0Q9tuI8

here other opinion

https://youtu.be/NMbqDWJ2eeE

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15 hours ago, power said:

If you tell people, that Prophet Ibraheim (عليه السلام) was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to cut his son head off, people will question what kind of barbaric god is this? Nauzabillah. 

You are wrongly compare between what Allah ordered and what people like.

The sacrifice that Hz Ibrahim as was to sacrifice his Love of Ismael for Love of Allah.

I feel our mourning should be directed towards establishing the sunnah and Quranic law's.

 

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19 hours ago, islam25 said:

You are wrong.There should be joint effort of Sunni and shia to implement and follow Islamic teachings. And remove all non Islamic laws from muslim nations .

Sunnis are majority. They don't care what we want and not. We should learn to co-exist with any religion and mind our business. 

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7 hours ago, islam25 said:

If it was really symbolic representation then why would khaminaie would prohibit. 

If it is not ritually symbolic then why Sistani doesn't issue fatwa against it. Why so many mujtahid consider it as mustahab/allowed. 

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8 hours ago, islam25 said:

Sorry' ,  I didn't get what you want to convey.

You are wrong, what you say why other Imams didn't sacrifice. That means other Imams have wronged.

Who said blood shedding is Symbolic representations .

Did any Imam said it is symbolic representation.

If it was really symbolic representation then why would khaminaie would prohibit.

What those who don't shed blood .

My friend, Shia faith throughout centuries faced difficult times, Oppression, Persecution, Hostility, Tyranny  etc. Imams (عليه السلام) also faced  Persecution,  therefore the Imam (عليه السلام) were very cautious in promoting Shia ideology.

They could not openly speak about Shia faith, hence they remained silent. If you believe shia'ism  is the true faith, then please answer why was there so many Shia sects? Why did so many Shia sects occurred and then splinter of to different branches? Was it because our Imams (عليه السلام) were lacking in conveying the truth? 

The Issue was the state was aware of Shia Faith and our Imams superiority in Islam  (عليه السلام) therefore the State (SUNNIS) continuously killed our Imams (عليه السلام) because  of there connection with Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))And the Truth.

Its only in the last few hundred years Shias were able to express there true faith, without  the fear of death.  And the  problem is with people like yourself and others, cannot comprehend the brutality that the Shias faced.

Now that the minority of the Shias are expressing their Love and grief for there Imams (عليه السلام) without the fear of death or persecution, we have people like yourself  who have adapted Sunni mentality to ridicule our Shias.

 

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2 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

You are wrongly compare between what Allah ordered and what people like.

The sacrifice that Hz Ibrahim as was to sacrifice his Love of Ismael for Love of Allah.

I feel our mourning should be directed towards establishing the sunnah and Quranic law's.

 

Okay my friend, I do not object to your good cause.

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Sunnis are majority. They don't care what we want and not. We should learn to co-exist with any religion and mind our business. 

Do we care what they want.

 Shias try to find defects what Sunnis do or  want .

So sunnis too try to find defects what shias do or want.

This prejudice against each other prevents us from supporting right of other.

We should learn to come out of this hatred against eachother and come forward to implement Quranic laws.

How nations of world united with one another to fight against COVID 19 depite each having different religion and other differences.

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15 minutes ago, power said:

Okay my friend, I do not object to your good cause.

Thanks .

It is not my cause.It is one core goal of Islam that laws should be followed what Allah wants. Unfortunately we hace many reasons to implement non Islamic laws in our government system.

No reason in support of establish government on Islamic laws.

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46 minutes ago, power said:

My friend, Shia faith throughout centuries faced difficult times, Oppression, Persecution, Hostility, Tyranny  etc. Imams (عليه السلام) also faced  Persecution,  therefore the Imam (عليه السلام) were very cautious in promoting Shia ideology.

They could not openly speak about Shia faith, hence they remained silent. If you believe shia'ism  is the true faith, then please answer why was there so many Shia sects? Why did so many Shia sects occurred and then splinter of to different branches? Was it because our Imams (عليه السلام) were lacking in conveying the truth? 

The Issue was the state was aware of Shia Faith and our Imams superiority in Islam  (عليه السلام) therefore the State (SUNNIS) continuously killed our Imams (عليه السلام) because  of there connection with Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))And the Truth.

Its only in the last few hundred years Shias were able to express there true faith, without  the fear of death.  And the  problem is with people like yourself and others, cannot comprehend the brutality that the Shias faced.

Now that the minority of the Shias are expressing their Love and grief for there Imams (عليه السلام) without the fear of death or persecution, we have people like yourself  who have adapted Sunni mentality to ridicule our Shias.

 

Brother you wrongly understood me.We know our  practice Tatbeer is being used to redicule shias.

Why should we do any thing that will be used tool to redicule us.

Now can you tell what benefit we get from doing Tatbir.

Nither any Imam or Prophet saw did it, nor quran says to do it.

Neither the the goal of sacrifice of Imam was that we should cut our selves.

Did any intellectual and reasonable person will accept that Allah will be happy with cut ourselves with sharp objects.

Our true love for Imam Hussain is that sacrifice everything for Allah and resist against arrogant opression.

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Brother you wrongly understood me.We know our  practice Tatbeer is being used to redicule shias.

Why should we do any thing that will be used tool to redicule us.

Now can you tell what benefit we get from doing Tatbir.

Nither any Imam or Prophet saw did it, nor quran says to do it.

Neither the the goal of sacrifice of Imam was that we should cut our selves.

Did any intellectual and reasonable person will accept that Allah will be happy with cut ourselves with sharp objects.

Our true love for Imam Hussain is that sacrifice everything for Allah and resist against arrogant opression.

In the circles of Academia debates, the issue of "Symbolic Rituals" Is hardly discussed. The topic that most Academics discuss, revolves around the concept of Caliphate or Imamate.

 Sadly its our own crowd (Shias) that shows enmity towards such acts. The justification given by the opposition is; Well it gives the Shias a bad name. 

I disagree, its the Shias who give the Shias the bad name.

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1 hour ago, power said:

In the circles of Academia debates, the issue of "Symbolic Rituals" Is hardly discussed. The topic that most Academics discuss, revolves around the concept of Caliphate or Imamate.

 Sadly its our own crowd (Shias) that shows enmity towards such acts. The justification given by the opposition is; Well it gives the Shias a bad name. 

I disagree, its the Shias who give the Shias the bad name.

I can't help .

I have been asked why do Shia's beat themselves with knives. I have no intellectual convincing answer.

Nither I have any tadition from Ahlebyat as in support of it.

And when I myself see shias beating themselves with sharp objects on roads I don't like it.It is not normal behavior and non reasonable person like it.

It is not  shia crowd but Ayatullah too prohibited .

Every shia has right call it bad if he don't like it.Because cutting themselves is introduced by common shias and not Ahlebyat as.

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38 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I can't help .

I have been asked why do Shia's beat themselves with knives. I have no intellectual convincing answer.

Nither I have any tadition from Ahlebyat as in support of it.

And when I myself see shias beating themselves with sharp objects on roads I don't like it.It is not normal behavior and non reasonable person like it.

It is not  shia crowd but Ayatullah too prohibited .

Every shia has right call it bad if he don't like it.Because cutting themselves is introduced by common shias and not Ahlebyat as.

Self flagellation, is a discipline that is carried out by people who want to  reenact  the Massacre of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) If you dont agree with it,  thats fine.

 Not all Mujtahids disagree with tatbir.

You cannot speak for all shias, because all shias dont follow the same Marja.

 You are also a common person, with common view of tatbir that has been expressed for many decades nothing new there.

And what i am witnessing now,  is more and more people across the world are carry out these ritual acts. 

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2 hours ago, power said:

Self flagellation, is a discipline that is carried out by people who want to  reenact  the Massacre of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) If you dont agree with it,  thats fine.

 Not all Mujtahids disagree with tatbir.

You cannot speak for all shias, because all shias dont follow the same Marja.

 You are also a common person, with common view of tatbir that has been expressed for many decades nothing new there.

And what i am witnessing now,  is more and more people across the world are carry out these ritual acts. 

Sorry brother I couldn't convince you. May be you are right.

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On 9/21/2020 at 12:04 PM, Hadi5 said:

We never tried.

Whether it is possible or not is different issue.

We never tried it but only mourned.

It is Khomeini ra worked and struggled to Islamic government.

Istnt unfortunate for 1400 years we could not apply Quranic laws in running government and judiciary.

But we happily aaply wertern laws in our government and judiciary.

Has any muslim contry applied quranic laws and established Islamic government system.

Who is to say that Khomeini brought an Islamic Government 

Do you have a statement from our Imam (ajtfs)? 

You think Khomeini was some sort of Genius and all other scholars are just sitting on their backs and just busy reading books all day

 

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5 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Who is to say that Khomeini brought an Islamic Government 

Do you have a statement from our Imam (ajtfs)? 

You think Khomeini was some sort of Genius and all other scholars are just sitting on their backs and just busy reading books all day

 

Yes, Khomeini was pious and genius person.And understood what Is Islam .So he he did what was needed.

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