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In the Name of God بسم الله

Should there be any change in way of Mourning


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13 minutes ago, power said:

With the absent of divine Imam (عليه السلام) you are not going to find a True Islamic Government . So with absent of Imam (عليه السلام) How do purpose an Islamic government ? What is  your  definition of Islamic government? 

We don't have to find but establish the Islamic government.

What for Allah send holy Quran.?

Is quran used as piece of decoration,

Or to read it.

Or read and implement it.

If you have Quranic law why you implement laws enacted by West and atheists.

If according to you there is no purpose of Islamic government without Imam then keep the Quran and traditions of Holy Prophet saw closed in box and wait when Imam come.

One more thing you should tell khaminaie to abandon the Islamic government in Iran and apply western laws where everything is allowed.

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I am going to make an observation that will not sit well with a lot of people - what else is new? Respectfully as a general rule, if you have been doing azadari for at least 10 years, keep your o

With the absent of divine Imam (عليه السلام) you are not going to find a True Islamic Government . So with absent of Imam (عليه السلام) How do purpose an Islamic government ? What is  your  definition

Forget the rituals side of Azadari for a moment, (even though Rituals  will become  core part of this discussion) Mourning for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is universally accepted by all branches of fai

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I don't understand why OP is insisting on establishing Islamic government based on tragedy of Karbala. You like imperfect Islamic government without an infallible, good but don't use tragedy of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for your underlying intentions.

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1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I don't understand why OP is insisting on establishing Islamic government based on tragedy of Karbala. You like imperfect Islamic government without an infallible, good but don't use tragedy of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for your underlying intentions.

Because Imam Hussain gave sacrifice when he saw Islamic laws are being abondoned and changed by the government, so to Stop it he sacrificed everything.

So this indicates how Islamic government is important.

Even by common sense Muslims have 40 percent resources .

If this is used according to Islamic system there will be no poverty , inequality and injustice. Laws in our life will be as taught by Quran.

Is it wrong.

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10 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

We don't have to find but establish the Islamic government.

What for Allah send holy Quran.?

Is quran used as piece of decoration,

Or to read it.

Or read and implement it.

If you have Quranic law why you implement laws enacted by West and atheists.

If according to you there is no purpose of Islamic government without Imam then keep the Quran and traditions of Holy Prophet saw closed in box and wait when Imam come.

One more thing you should tell khaminaie to abandon the Islamic government in Iran and apply western laws where everything is allowed.

From a Shia ideological point of view , a true establishment of Islamic government requires a divine Imam (عليه السلام) 

If Muslims (shias) are biding by the Sharia, Quran Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) then whats the Issue ?

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10 hours ago, power said:

From a Shia ideological point of view , a true establishment of Islamic government requires a divine Imam (عليه السلام) 

If Muslims (shias) are biding by the Sharia, Quran Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) then whats the Issue ?

Is it ok if Iran or Iraq will open wine shops, dance clubs etc join  isreal etc in oppressing Muslims at government level.

I mean you can only follow and Implement Islam when you your own Islamic government.

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10 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

Is it ok if Iran or Iraq will open wine shops, dance clubs etc join  isreal etc in oppressing Muslims at government level.

I mean you can only follow and Implement Islam when you your own Islamic government.

Then with this mentality, Muslims shouldn't live in western Countries right? 

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10 hours ago, power said:

Then with this mentality, Muslims shouldn't live in western Countries right? 

When one have a best Islamic government why anyone go. May be even non muslim will desire to live in Islamic country.

Why should I will have law's from west and atheists .

When Allah and Ahlebayt as has already given all law's for both government and personal level.

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9 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

When one have a best Islamic government why anyone go. May be even non muslim will desire to live in Islamic country.

Why should I will have law's from west and atheists .

When Allah and Ahlebayt as has already given all law's for both government and personal level.

In the UK where I reside, I have the freedom to  speak freely about my faith, without being persecuted or being killed, many other Religious domination have opportunities to have inter- faith dialogues with Shia faith,  Alhumidillah we had many conversion over the Years, 

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2 minutes ago, power said:

In the UK where I reside, I have the freedom to  speak freely about my faith, without being persecuted or being killed, many other Religious domination have opportunities to have inter- faith dialogues with Shia faith,  Alhumidillah we had many conversion over the Years, 

That is ok.

Being Islamic government doesn't means you don't above freedom.

But you won't have ,free alcohol, gay marriage or all sorts of non Islamic things will be banned at government level.

Just like heroin addictive drugs or hijab is ban in some European countries

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Just now, Hadi5 said:

That is ok.

Being Islamic government doesn't means you don't above freedom.

But you won't have ,free alcohol, gay marriage or all sorts of non Islamic things will be banned at government level.

Just like heroin addictive drugs or hijab is ban in some European countries

This happens everywhere even in Iran.

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2 minutes ago, power said:

This happens everywhere even in Iran.

At government level it is banned.

Definitely it might be happening in concealed.

And it is true 100,% pure system is near impossible.

But it doesn't mean we should not try it.

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1 minute ago, Hadi5 said:

At government level it is banned.

Definitely it might be happening in concealed.

And it is true 100,% pure system is near impossible.

But it doesn't mean we should not try it.

Inshallah it will happen when Imam Madhi (عليه السلام) returns. We will have a prefect system. 

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4 minutes ago, power said:

Inshallah it will happen when Imam Madhi (عليه السلام) returns. We will have a prefect system. 

That doesn't mean we don't have to implement it.

He will do with 100% perfection.

But it's good if help him by implementing it atleast 50 ,%

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Just now, Hadi5 said:

That doesn't mean we don't have to implement it.

He will do with 100% perfection.

But it's good if help him by implementing it atleast 50 ,%

From a Shia perspective, I truly believe we have achieved incredible grounds across the globe in in promoting the true message  of Quran and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) Inshallah under the banner of Quran and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) we have  prepared people to fight for justice and oppression Inshallah. 

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2 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

Because Imam Hussain gave sacrifice when he saw Islamic laws are being abondoned and changed by the government, so to Stop it he sacrificed everything.

So this indicates how Islamic government is important. 

Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) and Imam Baqar (عليه السلام) witnessed the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) yet they didn't understood importance of establishing Islamic government but here you my friend understands everything. 

2 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

If this is used according to Islamic system there will be no poverty , inequality and injustice. Laws in our life will be as taught by Quran.

Is it wrong.

You cannot guarantee anything you mentioned above in an Islamic government established by fallible. 

Infact, a fallible can use it to further his political objective under garb of Islam and people would not understand that they are being deceived behind his turban and beard. 

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On 9/20/2020 at 10:58 PM, Sirius_Bright said:
On 9/20/2020 at 5:53 PM, Ali2196 said:

people don’t follow Islam they follow cultures and claim it’s part of islam

BDF3F36C-D25E-4512-A505-FC9D99F52782.jpeg

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Please tell me one thing. Is striking your back with chains part of Islam or culture? 

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Brother @Ali2196, I am waiting for your confirmation. Please let me know so that I can practice in this Arbaeen. 

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59 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Brother @Ali2196, I am waiting for your confirmation. Please let me know so that I can practice in this Arbaeen. 

I don’t see why anything is wrong since I’m the photo there doesn’t seem to be any harm. Then again who am I to say remember ;) 

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7 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Brother @Ali2196, I am waiting for your confirmation. Please let me know so that I can practice in this Arbaeen. 

Sorry for late and random times of replying always end up doing something when I view the post. Anyways I’m gonna be honest I want to know if there is any hadiths/quranic Verses that say prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever got a sword and cut himself or a chain and hit himself. Chest beating is a natural way of mourning but it doesn’t hurt no matter how hard you hit. 

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15 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

Absolutely right.You rightly understood my question and your reply was correct. 

You rightly said that Imam Hussain as sacrificed everything for Allah and to preserve the Islamic teachings. 

So we to should struggle to establish Islamic government and establish sunnah of Prophet saww in our life.And then our mourning will have meaning and accepted by Imam.

It I'll be unfortunate if we keep mourning ritulas alive but remain silent on vasnishing of teachings of Holy Prophet saw and absence of Islamic government .

I would settle for an Islamic society instead of an islamic government, for now. It will be much more beneficial. Think about it. If we as people adopt just one islamic quality of speaking out and point out what is wrong and support what is right around us the inhuman "Kufa" we are all living in will be no more and we will become a living people. If we start respecting the rights of each other, the rights of siblings, relatives, spouses, parents, the rights of our Creator and His creatures, it will become heaven. If we care for our neighbors, the weak, the widow, the orphan, if we correct our measures and do no corruption in businesses, if we speak truth can you imagine? I cannot imagine the results. But we won't do any of that. We would much rather perform little rituals, consider ourselves forgiven and get it over with.

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9 hours ago, power said:

With the absent of divine Imam (عليه السلام) you are not going to find a True Islamic Government . So with absent of Imam (عليه السلام) How do purpose an Islamic government ? What is  your  definition of Islamic government? 

Can't help but agree with this.

Politics is a cancer that makes corrupts the human heart and justifies the unjustifiable. Only need to watch the news to figure that out. Give anyone the power, layman or scholar, and most likely this effect is bound to occur. For the average person, no matter how educated you are, power and politics will corrupt you. 

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2 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

I would settle for an Islamic society instead of an islamic government, for now. It will be much more beneficial. Think about it. If we as people adopt just one islamic quality of speaking out and point out what is wrong and support what is right around us the inhuman "Kufa" we are all living in will be no more and we will become a living people. If we start respecting the rights of each other, the rights of siblings, relatives, spouses, parents, the rights of our Creator and His creatures, it will become heaven. If we care for our neighbors, the weak, the widow, the orphan, if we correct our measures and do no corruption in businesses, if we speak truth can you imagine? I cannot imagine the results. But we won't do any of that. We would much rather perform little rituals, consider ourselves forgiven and get it over with.

That is right.

But having Islamic government is much more necessary and Important. 

There are hundreds of things that needs Islamic government for establishment. That can't be solved by people.

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7 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) and Imam Baqar (عليه السلام) witnessed the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) yet they didn't understood importance of establishing Islamic government but here you my friend understands everything. 

You cannot guarantee anything you mentioned above in an Islamic government established by fallible. 

Infact, a fallible can use it to further his political objective under garb of Islam and people would not understand that they are being deceived behind his turban and beard. 

It's unfortunate that you ask for gurantee.Because we always he encountered with corrupt people.

Still there hundreds of law's enacted by Western governments we abide by it more strictly than Islamic law .

Why?

We are right it is difficult to attain it, but it is possible we can achieve it to great extent of we try.

Iran had hundreds fahash places, wine other crimes free but after Islamic government it got stopped.

If not 100% but at least 50 to 70 perecent

All imams tried but there follower were less so they can't, and that is most imams got imprisoned or poisoned.

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I am going to make an observation that will not sit well with a lot of people - what else is new?

Respectfully as a general rule, if you have been doing azadari for at least 10 years, keep your opinions to yourself and learn first before wanting to change it.

I say this because 10 years is a good time to see it change and then form opinions on where it should go.

I have seen azadari change quite a bit in the last 10 years and it will continue to do so. 

10 years also a good time to see if azadari is just a fad for you or if you are sincere to it. People who do azadari to fit in shouldn't really have an opinion either.

Devote some time to azadari, serve Hussain first and then determine azadari's direction. 

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9 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

Sorry for late and random times of replying always end up doing something when I view the post.

It's okay. Happens with all of us. 

10 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

I don’t see why anything is wrong since I’m the photo there doesn’t seem to be any harm. Then again who am I to say remember ;) 

Yes, you are no one to say about striking chains on the back that is practiced in Iran but you pass fatwa and mock other Azadari rituals practiced all over the world. Why? 

9 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

Anyways I’m gonna be honest I want to know if there is any hadiths/quranic Verses that say prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever got a sword and cut himself or a chain and hit himself. 

I'll present the hadith after you present a hadith that Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got a chain and striked on his back. 

Again, you didn't answer actual question. Is hitting yourself with chain part of Islam or culture? 

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13 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

It's okay. Happens with all of us. 

Yes, you are no one to say about striking chains on the back that is practiced in Iran but you pass fatwa and mock other Azadari rituals practiced all over the world. Why? 

I'll present the hadith after you present a hadith that Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got a chain and striked on his back. 

Again, you didn't answer actual question. Is hitting yourself with chain part of Islam or culture? 

1. Because people are actually doing things such as walking on burning coal which had nothing to do with Hussein (عليه السلام) and what I said is soon they will start making their own things.

2. I asked for the hadiths first as I said I’m not sure if there’s any that I know. 

3. It’s not culture but is there a reason to do it with shirts off and causing bodily harm? 

Edited by Ali2196
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4 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

It's unfortunate that you ask for gurantee.Because we always he encountered with corrupt people.

Exactly, if we encounter corrupt instead of pious and honest leader then it would do more bad than good. 

4 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

Still there hundreds of law's enacted by Western governments we abide by it more strictly than Islamic law .

Why?

Western laws can be good. They say don't steal, don't kill people, follow rules, be disciplined. For all those things that are allowed like drinking, zina, etc. that is all upto us. Islam doesn't allow this things and we should avoid it at all cost. You cannot live in western country, commit sin and blame western laws. 

4 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

All imams tried but there follower were less so they can't, and that is most imams got imprisoned or poisoned.

Did they? Imam is divinely appointed and khalifa on earth. It was his rightful position if they tried (they didn't). But how about us common man. Did any of the Imams (عليهم اسلام) asked us to strive for establishment of Islamic government. How does that relate to tragedy of Karbala as you mentioned in OP? 

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6 minutes ago, Ali2196 said:

1. Because people are actually doing things such as walking on burning coal which had nothing to do with Hussein (عليه السلام) and what I said is soon they will start making their own things.

Brother Ali, there's no hadith for walking on coal, tatbir or any other rituals. Similarly, there's no hadith for hitting your back with chains. You have problem with former but not later? 

9 minutes ago, Ali2196 said:

3. It’s not culture but is there a reason to do it with shirts off and causing bodily harm? 

Referring to tatbir? 

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3 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Brother Ali, there's no hadith for walking on coal, tatbir or any other rituals. Similarly, there's no hadith for hitting your back with chains. You have problem with former but not later? 

Referring to tatbir? 

Sorry I’m abit lost. now are you against or for tatbir? Mabye I never made sense but I’m trying to say that many people are copying Hindus for example which is not part of islam such as walking on coal has nothing to do with Islam and that’s who I’m talking about people/cultures trying to bring in some innovations. 
 

apologies if I’m not making sense 

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4 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Brother Ali, there's no hadith for walking on coal, tatbir or any other rituals. Similarly, there's no hadith for hitting your back with chains. You have problem with former but not later? 

Referring to tatbir? 

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “When you will find people of bidah (innovation) and doubt after me, do barah from them and increase in your insults to them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam. You must warn people against them and do not learn their bid`ah (innovation). Allah will write for you good rewards for this, and will raise you status in the next life".

Source: 1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 375,

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8 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I am going to make an observation that will not sit well with a lot of people - what else is new?

Respectfully as a general rule, if you have been doing azadari for at least 10 years, keep your opinions to yourself and learn first before wanting to change it.

I say this because 10 years is a good time to see it change and then form opinions on where it should go.

I have seen azadari change quite a bit in the last 10 years and it will continue to do so. 

10 years also a good time to see if azadari is just a fad for you or if you are sincere to it. People who do azadari to fit in shouldn't really have an opinion either.

Devote some time to azadari, serve Hussain first and then determine azadari's direction. 

I am doing Azadari for last 40 years.

I felt the need of changing it . That too when I saw adding new ritual like running on fire, doing salat on fire, etc . What do we want to prove by doing salat on fire etc.

Did we ever tried to struggle for establishing Islamic and shariah law government.

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4 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

Sorry I’m abit lost. now are you against or for tatbir? Mabye I never made sense but I’m trying to say that many people are copying Hindus for example which is not part of islam such as walking on coal has nothing to do with Islam and that’s who I’m talking about people/cultures trying to bring in some innovations. 
 

apologies if I’m not making sense 

I'm not for or against tatbir. I'm for whatever my marja says. Those who perform tatbir have permission from their marja and no one should have any problem with it. Regarding bid'ah, it is not you or me to decide what is bidah and what isn't. Again, everyone should turn to their marja. 

You are counting tatbir as bidah and cultural because it is not in the traditions but you are not saying same for hitting back with chains (Irani style), why? Either both should be bidah or both should be fine. Please make up your mind. 

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3 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “When you will find people of bidah (innovation) and doubt after me, do barah from them and increase in your insults to them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam. You must warn people against them and do not learn their bid`ah (innovation). Allah will write for you good rewards for this, and will raise you status in the next life".

Source: 1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 375,

This hadith is for those who innovate but again mujtahid will say what is bid'ah in Azadari, not you or me. This tradition fits on those who usurped the position of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) and innovated. 

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9 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Exactly, if we encounter corrupt instead of pious and honest leader then it would do more bad than good. 

Western laws can be good. They say don't steal, don't kill people, follow rules, be disciplined. For all those things that are allowed like drinking, zina, etc. that is all upto us. Islam doesn't allow this things and we should avoid it at all cost. You cannot live in western country, commit sin and blame western laws. 

Did they? Imam is divinely appointed and khalifa on earth. It was his rightful position if they tried (they didn't). But how about us common man. Did any of the Imams (عليهم اسلام) asked us to strive for establishment of Islamic government. How does that relate to tragedy of Karbala as you mentioned in OP? 

It is already in Quran ,why don't you understand. Most of the laws in Quran needs Islamic government for implementation and that what holy Prophet saw did.

When Imam Hussain saw that Islamic government is getting deviated and sunnah is getting charged he opposed it.

So it clearly indicates what is importance of Islamic government.

 

Love pa%87,%%37%tpqprqqrqqryh

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I admire your passion in your conviction, and it is evidently obvious that  you have given this a immense thought.  

So what i liked to understand, to whom are you appealing to, Shias, Sunnis or both ? Hadi5

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1 hour ago, power said:

I admire your passion in your conviction, and it is evidently obvious that  you have given this a immense thought.  

So what i liked to understand, to whom are you appealing to, Shias, Sunnis or both ? Hadi5

Thanks for admiration.

It is for Muslims (both for shias and Sunnis) .

Yes, it is prime importance that one has to establish Islamic government . I have heared a lecture on it from rebound Shia scholar that he says everyone has struggle to establish it , otherwise we are anwerable to it.

And one core message of Quran is this establishment of Islamic government, so that justice and rule of Allah' will prevail.

 

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