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How and Where did Sayedda Zainab bint Ali die

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I've realised that there are alternative theories behind her death and place of burial.

In South Asian ( India/Pak) people believe she was imprisoned again and was killed when she was brought back to Syria and her death is observed here in 24th Safar. I used to believe this but this doesn't seem to be exactly true. 

But I did some basic search and stuff and realised that there are multiple theories. Some say she died naturally in Egypt others suggest she was killed. 

 

So what's the truth. Also who's grave is that which is found in Syria ?. 

 

I've also come into realization that South Asia has badly messed up with history. They have combined Sakina the 14 year old daughter and Ruqaya 4 year old daughter of Imam Hussain into one Character and also created an absolutely new character of Sughra a daughter of Imam Hussain who probably never existed but has been deeply rooted into Shia history by South Asians. 

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40 minutes ago, Hassu93 said:

I've also come into realization that South Asia has badly messed up with history. They have combined Sakina the 14 year old daughter and Ruqaya 4 year old daughter of Imam Hussain into one Character and also created an absolutely new character of Sughra a daughter of Imam Hussain who probably never existed but has been deeply rooted into Shia history by South Asians. 

You've likely not seen the annual debate we used to have about koonday then.

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There is also the possibility that she was buried in Medina, however a rebuttal of that is that we would most likely have had some kind of report of that and surely Imam Sajjad (a) would have lead the janaza. 

I don't think that we can really know, if we critically evaluate all the information that we have, neither Damascus nor Cairo have much proof.

With regards to Ruqayya, Imam Husayn (a) never had a daughter by that name, the whole foundation of the story, unfortunately, is weak and is reject by the likes of shaykh al-Mufid.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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2 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

There is also the possibility that she was buried in Medina, however a rebuttal of that is that we would most likely have had some kind of report of that and surely Imam Sajjad (a) would have lead the janaza. 

I don't think that we can really know, if we critically evaluate all the information that we have, neither Damascus nor Cairo have much proof.

With regards to Ruqayya, Imam Husayn (a) never had a daughter by that name, the whole foundation of the story, unfortunately, is weak and is reject by the likes of shaykh al-Mufid.

So who is Buried in Damascus ?

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6 hours ago, Hassu93 said:

I've realised that there are alternative theories behind her death and place of burial.

In South Asian ( India/Pak) people believe she was imprisoned again and was killed when she was brought back to Syria and her death is observed here in 24th Safar. I used to believe this but this doesn't seem to be exactly true. 

But I did some basic search and stuff and realised that there are multiple theories. Some say she died naturally in Egypt others suggest she was killed. 

 

So what's the truth. Also who's grave is that which is found in Syria ?. 

 

I've also come into realization that South Asia has badly messed up with history. They have combined Sakina the 14 year old daughter and Ruqaya 4 year old daughter of Imam Hussain into one Character and also created an absolutely new character of Sughra a daughter of Imam Hussain who probably never existed but has been deeply rooted into Shia history by South Asians. 

I find it so funny ny that South Asians get blamed for the mystery around Hz. Zainab bint Ali's place and date of martyrdom. I can assure you South Asians didn't have a say in the matter.

There is mystery around several ladies of the Ahlul Bayt. Most people don't know that Hz Zainab (عليه السلام) was exiled from several cities due to her proactive campaign about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) martyrdom. Also, the Ahlul Bayt had several ladies with the same name to keep things even more complicated.

I believe the more authentic report is Egypt but Damascus is also a member of the Ahlul Bayt.

There is also confusion around Hz Rukayia (عليه السلام) and Hz Sakina (عليه السلام) being the same or different daughters. Again, the confusion has not been created by South Asians. Its part of the mystery the Ahlul Bayt kept around them.

It is not to different from the mystery of the exact burial spot of Hz Fatima (عليه السلام). Again, South Asians were not involved in the process.

:cuddle:

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16 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

 

There is also confusion around Hz Rukayia (عليه السلام) and Hz Sakina (عليه السلام) being the same or different daughters. Again, the confusion has not been created by South Asians. Its part of the mystery the Ahlul Bayt kept around them.

 

It is only South Asians who claim that it was Sakina (/Sukayna) who died as an infant, Arabs call her Ruqayya.

What most likely happened is that someone noticed that there was no daughter called Ruqayya so they tried to be clever and assign this story to Sakina - who lived to adulthood and whose biography we are somewhat familiar with.

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4 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

It is only South Asians who claim that it was Sakina (/Sukayna) who died as an infant, Arabs call her Ruqayya.

What most likely happened is that someone noticed that there was no daughter called Ruqayya so they tried to be clever and assign this story to Sakina - who lived to adulthood and whose biography we are somewhat familiar with.

Isn't that Sakina bint Ali (عليه السلام)?

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fyi

Quote

THE CHILDREN OF THE Commander of the Fa

3. Zaynab the elder

4. Zaynab the younger, who was given the kunya Umm Kulthūm.

Their mother was Fāṭima, the blessed, mistress of the women of the worlds, daughter of the master of those sent by Allāh and the seal of the prophets, the Prophet Muhammad.

Page 251

Quote

The Children of al-Ḥusayn b. ‘Alī, Peace be on them

5. Sukayna, daughter of al-Ḥusayn, peace be on him. Her mother was Rabāb, daughter of Imru’ al-Qays b. ‘Adī of Kalb of Ma‘d. She was also the mother of ‘Abd Allah b. al- Ḥusayn, peace be on him.

6. Fāṭima, daughter of al-Ḥusayn, peace be on him. Her mother was Umm Ishāq, daughter of Talḥa b. ‘Ubayd Allāh of Taym.

Page 352

KITÃB AL-IRSHÃD The book of guidance into the lives of the twelve imams By: Shaykh al-Mufīd

https://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93

 

Quote

Sakina has said that on the fourth day of their stay, she has seen in a dream, "There was a lady in the camel litter. She had placed her hand on her head." I asked about her. It was said, "She was Fatima daughter of Muhammad."

I said that I should go to her and tell her what had happened to us. So I rushed to meet her, stood by her, wept and said, "O my mother! By Allah, they denied our rights and scattered our com- munity. O mother! They considered the violation of our honor permissible. O mother! By Allah, they killed my father."

She said: "O Sakina! Keep quiet my dear! Your story has torn my heart, and wounded my liver. This is the shirt of your father, Husayn that will not get separated from me until I meet Allah."

“Al-Lohoof ala Qatla al-Tofuf” is a heart-rending but detailed and authentic account of the tragedy of Karbala and the sacrifice of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).), it was written by renowned Shia scholar, Sayyid Raziuddin Ali bin Musa Ibn Ja'far bin Muhammad Ibn Tawus al-Hilli ((رضي الله عنه).) better known as Sayyid Ibn Tawus,

https://www.al-islam.org/lohoof-sighs-sorrow-sayyid-ibn-tawus/after-martyrdom-husayn#event-5

Quote

Dream of the infant daughter of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).)

It is related in Kamile Bahai from Kitab al Hawiyah, that the family of Prophethood had concealed from the children regarding the martyrdom of their fathers. They told them that their fathers had been on a journey, until Yazid called them to his house. A four-year-old daughter of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).) one day awoke from her dream saying,

“Where has my father been? Just now I saw him in a dream that he was uneasy and distressed”.

Hearing this, the women as well as the other children started weeping, while the voices of their lamenting arose. Yazid arose from his sleep and asked, “What has happened?” They found out the matter and informed him and the accursed ordered that the head of her father (Imam Husayn) be sent for her. The head was brought and kept in her lap. The girl asked,

“What is this?”

and they answered, “It is the head of your father”. Hearing this, the child was alarmed and started yelling, she took to ill and died in Damascus.16

While this incident is also quoted in some reports as follows: A kerchief of fine silk was placed upon the head (of Imam Husayn) and the tray containing it was placed in front of the child. The child lifted off the veil and said,

“Whose head is this?”

They replied, “Your father’s head”. She lifted it up from the tray and pressing it to her heart, said,

“O dear father! Who had dyed you with your blood? Who has severed the vein of your neck? Who has orphaned me in this infancy? O dear father! Whom should I rely upon after your death? O dear father! Who shall take care of the orphan until she grows up?”

She spoke in similar words and then placed her lips upon that of his and wept until she fell unconscious. When they shook her they realized that her spirit had already departed.

https://www.al-islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-karbala-shaykh-abbas-qummi/entry-household-ahlul-bayt-syria#dream-sayyidah-sakinah-daughter-imam-husayn

----------------------------

There are many who will have an unqualified input, Ask the ones Defending the Two Shrines with their life/Blood in Damascus . 

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5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Isn't that Sakina bint Ali (عليه السلام)?

No, this is the daughter of Imam Husayn (a).

She was the victim of Umayyad propaganda, they claimed that she would entertain poets in her home. One of our historians wrote a book defending her, it is called 'Aqilat al-Quraysh.

https://books.rafed.net/m/?type=c_fbook&b_id=1364

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Quote

3. Zaynab the elder

4. Zaynab the younger, who was given the kunya Umm Kulthūm.

 

Quote

The first marsiya, a poetic elegy for the martyrs of Karbala, was composed and recited by Umme Kulsoom (sa), the sister of Hussain (عليه السلام), in Medina. Ummul Baneen (sa), the mother of Abbas ibn Ali (عليه السلام), played a pivotal role in making the practice popular in Medina by writing some heart-rending marsiyas. Those marsiyas, according to historical accounts, jolted people out of slumber and laid bare the evil machinations of Umayyad rulers. These are the women of Karbala, who toppled a powerful empire with their spoken and written words.

When Yazid was informed by Marwan bin Hakam, his close aide, about these mourning gatherings in Medina, he feared public mutiny and ordered the re-arrest of Imam Zainul Abideen (عليه السلام), the ailing son of Hussain (عليه السلام) and the only surviving male member of the holy household. That forced the caravan to move back to Damascus. 

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/427632/Karbala-to-Kashmir-Brief-history-of-Azadari#:~:text=According%20to%20many%20historians%2C%20azadari,symbols%20of%20heritage)%20from%20Karbala.

Quote

Buried: Damascus, Syria (per most historians), however, it is also said that she was buried in Madinah, in the Arabian Peninsula, or Cairo, Egypt.

https://imam-us.org/islamic-awareness/islam-101/beliefs/ahl-al-bayt/sayyida-zainab-bint-ali

Quote

Egypt had known the rites of remembrance for al-Husayn from a very early time. The Umayyad administration in the Hijaz was afraid of the consequences of the activity which Zaynab had been striving to carry out in Medina after her return from Karbala', where, through the family rites of remembrance, she was enflaming the Hijaz with the spirit of the revolution in a society which was ready for it.

'Amr ibn Said ibn al-'As the governor of Medina wrote to Yazid ibn Mu' awiya to tell him of his fear of the consequences of the movement of Zaynab if she continued her activities. He said: 'The presence of Zaynab among the people of Medina is inflammatory. She is eloquent, clever and intellegent. She and those with her are determined to take vengeance for the death of al-Husayn.'

An order appears to have issued that Zaynab should be sent outside the Hijaz. This point in the history of Zaynab is unclear. How was the order for her to travel issued? Why was Egypt rather than any other country chosen? The sources do not provide us with an explanation of the real situation.

What we do know from the sources is that Zaynab arrived in Egypt in the month of Sha'ban in the year 61, i.e. approximately eight months after the Battle of Karbala'. Maslama ibn Mukhallad al-Ansari, the governor of Egypt, met her in Bilbis with the leaders of the Muslims amid weeping and condolences. Maslama went with her and she resided with him. She lived there for about a year after her arrival and then she died on 14th Rajab in the year 62.

The Umayyad choice of Egypt as the place of exile for Zaynab may have arisen out of the belief that any propaganda activity she undertook there would have only limited effect on the stability of the Umayyad government, as Egypt was far away from events in Iraq and the people who knew about what was going on in Iraq was a very limited number of those in government and those associated with them.

The ordinary people knew nothing about the true situations, in contrast to the people in Iraq, Syria and the Arabian peninsula where there was an active and busy exchange of ideas, news and people among them.

We believe that Zaynab, during the short period which she spent in Egypt, was able to influence the Egyptians, who came into contact with her, to varying degrees because she must have spoken to them about what had happened at Karbala'.

However, we have to admit that this influence was so limited that its effects were not shown in any wavering of the people's allegiance to the Umayyad government in Damascus, although this influence was a nucleus whose importance for the future could not be ignored.

* * *

While the Hamdanids in Syria and Mosul and the Buwayhids in Iraq and Iran were planting their authority firmly and while the rites of remembrance and the other rituals associated with al-Husayn were flourishing under these Shi'ite governments, the Fatimids were extending their control over Egypt which they entered in 358. In this way the area, in which the rites of al-Husayn and the other rituals flourished, was increased far beyond what it had been in the past.

The Fatimids, when they took control of Egypt, did not introduce rituals to an area where the rites of remembrance had not existed. They had existed there during the weak rule of the Ikshidids whom the Fatimids overthrew. Al-Maqrizi in al-Khitat has explained that the call for grief for al-Husayn took place during the time of the Ikshidids and its scope was broadened during the time of the Fatimids.

Yet the situation of the rituals of the rites of remembrance in Egypt before the Fatimids was the same as their situation on Iraq before the Buwayhids. They existed but they aroused opposition against them from some fanatical sectarian elements. An example of this is what happened on 'Ashura' in the year 350 when a disturbance occurred between the soldiers and a group of citizens at the tomb of Umm Kulthum. It appears that this was because of the rites of remembrance that had been held on that day.

https://www.al-islam.org/revolution-imam-al-husayn-shaykh-muhammad-mahdi-shams-ad-din-al-amili/rites-remembrance-al-husayn#language-rites-remembrance

This scholar mentions the arrival of Zaynab ( Which one? ) in Egypt,  and also mentions the Tomb of Umm Kulthum in Egypt. 

As both sisters were named Zaynab, it could be that people mixed thinks up. 

 

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16 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

fyi

Page 251

Page 352

KITÃB AL-IRSHÃD The book of guidance into the lives of the twelve imams By: Shaykh al-Mufīd

https://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93

 

“Al-Lohoof ala Qatla al-Tofuf” is a heart-rending but detailed and authentic account of the tragedy of Karbala and the sacrifice of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).), it was written by renowned Shia scholar, Sayyid Raziuddin Ali bin Musa Ibn Ja'far bin Muhammad Ibn Tawus al-Hilli ((رضي الله عنه).) better known as Sayyid Ibn Tawus,

https://www.al-islam.org/lohoof-sighs-sorrow-sayyid-ibn-tawus/after-martyrdom-husayn#event-5

https://www.al-islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-karbala-shaykh-abbas-qummi/entry-household-ahlul-bayt-syria#dream-sayyidah-sakinah-daughter-imam-husayn

----------------------------

There are many who will have an unqualified input, Ask the ones Defending the Two Shrines with their life/Blood in Damascus . 

Why are you using Kitab al-Irshad when it is proof against what you are trying to prove.

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Why are you using Kitab al-Irshad when it is proof against what you are trying to prove.

You could have just saved time and just posted 'The Proof against what you "think"  I am trying to prove.

Just as an fyi, loose the habit of asking ' Why are You"- I am not your subject. 

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2 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

You could have just saved time and just posted 'The Proof against what you "think"  I am trying to prove.

Just as an fyi, loose the habit of asking ' Why are You"- I am not your subject. 

I posted a whole book on the subject, do you believe that Sakina and Ruqayya are the same person? If yes, do you reject all the historical reports of the adult Sakina, if no, what is your primary source for the Imam having more than two daughters and what is your primary source that he had a daughter called Ruqayya.

I'm just curious as to why you keep jumping in to every thread, when every discussion that you are involved in ends the same way, you just end up saying that it doesn't matter what proofs are used because people should just accept what x y or z says.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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What happens now is characterised by two phenomena: (i) Attention is only focussed on some of the women- Zaynab, Sakina and al-Rabab; 

https://www.al-islam.org/revolution-imam-al-husayn-shaykh-muhammad-mahdi-shams-ad-din-al-amili/rites-remembrance-al-husayn#language-rites-remembrance

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4 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

 

FYI

 

Are you talking about this?

The first book to mention a "young girl" named Ruqayyah for Imam Husayn is a 6th-century hijri work called Lubab al-Ansab - otherwise, no earlier historian has ever mentioned this daughter for the Imam and as such even her existence is doubted. The first ever mention of a "girl" buried in Damascus is mentioned in Kamil-e Bahai (pg. 523), written by 'Imad al-Din Hasan b. 'Ali Tabari in 7th-century hijri. He wrote this book for Baha' al-Din Muhammad the governor of Isfahan at the time. It doesn't mention the girl's name or whose daughter she was, though later it was presumed it's Ruqayyah (I don't know why?). Of course, this is heavily contested, even amongst contemporary scholars and historians, some believing no such daughter existed. Unlike Sukayna who was indeed a daughter and much older (though her original name was probably Aminah or Ameenah or Umaymah).

Translation of the passage from Kamil-e Bahai, that mentions this young girl:

It has been mentioned in Hawiyah [1] that the women of the family of Prophethood - while they were being taken as prisoners - would keep what happened to the martyrs hidden from their sons and daughters. They would promise every child that, 'your father has gone on a certain journey and he will return,' until they were brought to the house of Yazid. One night a four-year old girl woke up from a dream and asked, 'where is my father? I saw him in a dream very distressed.' The women and the children began to cry and scream. Yazid who was asleep woke up and began to investigate what had happened. They informed him about what happened. That accursed ordered them to bring the head of her father and take it to her. The accursed men brought the head and placed it besides the four-year old girl. She asked, 'who is this?' The accursed men said, it is the head of your father. The girl got scared and wailed, and fell sick. She lost her life during those few days.

[1] Hawiyah is a reference to a book called Hawiyah fi Mathalib Mu'awiyah ( حاویه فی مثالب معاویه ). It was authored by a Sunni scholar named Qasim b. Muhammad b. Ahmad Mamuni ( قاسم بن محمد بن احمد مأمونی ), however we do not have the original book with us anymore.

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fyi

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Many historians and those who write maqtals (accounts of what took place on Ashura) have mentioned two girls with the names of Fatimah  and Sukainah when counting the daughters of Imam Hussein.[1] Also, some have added the name of "Zeynab"[2], while other books have narrated the story of the Imam's small daughter and the tragic incidents that took place for her in the ruins of Sham.[3] Most of these writers have cited this story from the book of "Kamel Baha’i" which was written in seventh century A. H.

There are also clues in our hadith and history sources that support her existence and as an example we will mention one of them:

First: When Lady Zeynab  was speaking to the head of her brother, Imam Hussein, she recited poems that consisted of the following sentence: "O Brother! Speak to little Fatimah for it is close for her heart to become empty (it is close for her to pass away)."[4] This sentence indicates that such a small girl existed and could not bear the separation from her father.

For more information you can refer to: Question 7235 (website 7318) Ruqqayah, the daughter of Imam Hussein

When examining historical books and the Maqatel we find that Shia and Sunni historians have mentioned a daughter named Sukainah for Imam Hussein. In this regard Sheikh Mufid says:" Sukainah is among the daughters of Imam Hussein and her mother's name is Rubab."[5] Sheikh Tabarsi also mentions her name saying that: "Imam Hussein married her to Abdullah Bin Al Hassan - her cousin - that was martyred on the day of Ashura." [6] It is mentioned in the book Maghtal al-Hussein that: "She (Sukainah) married her cousin (Abdullah Bin Al Hassan) who was martyred on the day of Ashura before consummating their marriage and no child was born from this marriage."[7] Tabarsi also narrates that: "Sukainah, the daughter of Imam Hussein was 10 years old during the incident of Ashura."[8]

Dhahabi has also mentioned in his "Tarikh al-Islam" that Sukainah was the daughter of Imam Hussein and names up to 20 books that have mentioned Sukainah as the Imam's daughter.[9] Therefore many books have mentioned Sukainah as the daughter of Imam Hussein.  In addition to the books mentioned in this article, we have mentioned the names of the rest of these books in the footnotes.[10] 

However, regarding her age, there is no clear narration, and it is only understood from the different opinions that during Ashura she was either married or she had reached the age of marriage.[11]   

Taking what was said in to consideration, one can conclude that a daughter of Imam Hussein (who was either named Ruqayyahh or Fatimah ) passed away beside the head of her father in the ruins of Sham, and that this little girl was not Sukainah, the other daughter of the Imam who lived for many years after her father's martyrdom.  

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa10135

 

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I went to the sayida zainab shrine in Egypt, where she supposedly breathed her last breath, and I started crying hysterically for the longest time, to the extent that the Bohra Muslims there started touching me and surrounding me. So personally I saw that as a sign that there is truth to it. 

Likewise, I felt things in the sayidna Hussein shrine in Cairo, although it was less intense and very little crying in comparison,  but more of a different, but also extremely powerful vibe. I think his (عليه السلام) head is truly there, but that part can be confirmed with DNA test in theory, while comparing it to the body in Iraq, and most likely can only happen after the zuhur.

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Seriously please take a minute to read the things you post.

What Exactly is the issue this time. You can just write it. 

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