Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Imam Ali (a) See Himself as Divinely Decreed Imam?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Just read this interesting article on the wilyayat vs the wisayat. According to this, the wishayat (or the Shias that saw Ali (a) as the rightful leader due to his character rather than any Divine Decree) was the mainstream Shia till about Imam Husain’s (a) martyrdom.
 

Then the reversal kinda happened, especially as ‘Sunni’ as a concept was developed to lump the wishayat and the Uthmanites together for political reasons. 
 

Given that it seems the wisayat were basically the Shias of the time of Imam Ali (a) and his quarrel with the three caliphs, are there any documents that illustrate that Imam Ali (a) himself understood himself to be Imam by Allah’s will, or was it an inherently political dispute? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Development Team

How can it be a political dispute? Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn't speak of his own. He made Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, caliph, Imam. It is clear that it was a divine order. Any dispute raised is invalid. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

How can it be a political dispute? Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn't speak of his own. He made Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, caliph, Imam. It is clear that it was a divine order. Any dispute raised is invalid. 

Dispute meaning the dispute between Ali and Abu Bakr. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
5 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

How can it be a political dispute? Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn't speak of his own. He made Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, caliph, Imam. It is clear that it was a divine order. Any dispute raised is invalid. 

Brother do you have any authentic "12er Shia Tradition" attributed to Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) that could prove:

1. He (may Allah be pleased with him) invited common believers towards his divine appointment by saying He is appointed by Allah as a successor to Prophet Muhammed (saww)?

2. He (may Allah be pleased with him) claimed his divine appointment or succession to Prophet Muhammed (saww) on the basis of Ghadir-e-Khumm's incident?

Edited by investigating
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Thanks that’s exactly what I was looking for. I haven’t yet found evidence of Imam Ali (a) actually encouraging the idea that his appointment was divinely decreed. 
 

Seems to me at this point that really the only Shias at the time were those that like Ali (a) to be a leader, rather than seeing him as the Divinely appointed Imam. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
42 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyah??? 

Just read it. Don’t see where he says Allah appointed me the first time. It’s clear that it would have been better if he was, but again no recognition of religious decree. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
Quote

None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the Progeny3 of the Prophet (Ali Muhammad). One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief. The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They possess the chief characteristics for vicegerency. In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.

لا يُقَاسُ بِآلِ مُحَمَّد (عليهم السلام) مِنْ هذِهِ الاُمَّةِ أَحَدٌ، وَلا يُسَوَّى بِهِمْ مَنْ جَرَتْ نِعْمَتُهُمْ عَلَيْهِ أبَداً.

هُمْ أَسَاسُ الدِّينِ، وَعِمَادُ اليَقِينِ، إِلَيْهمْ يَفِيءُ الغَالي، وَبِهِمْ يَلْحَقُ التَّالي، وَلَهُمْ خَصَائِصُ حَقِّ الوِلايَةِ، وَفِيهِمُ الوَصِيَّةُ وَالوِرَاثَةُ، الاْنَ إِذْ رَجَعَ الحَقُّ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ، وَنُقِلَ إِلَى مُنْتَقَلِهِ.

Amir al-mu’minin referred to Al an-Nabi (the Household of the Holy Prophet) as under

ومنها: ويعني آل النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

They are the trustees of His secrets, shelter for His affairs, source of knowledge about Him, centre of His wisdom, valleys for His books and mountains of His religion. With them Allah straightened the bend of religion’s back and removed the trembling of its limbs.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-2-i-praise-allah-seeking-completion-his-blessing

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Someone 1 said to me, "O' son of Abi Talib, you are eager for the caliphate." Then I told him:

"Rather, you are, by Allah, more greedy, although more remote, while I am more suited as well as nearer. I have demanded it as my right, while you are intervening between me and it, and you are turning my face from it." When I knocked at his ears with arguments among the crowd of those present he was startled as if he was stunned not knowing what reply to give me about it.

وَقَالَ قَائِلٌ: إِنَّكَ يابْنَ أبِي طَالِب عَلَى هذَا الاْمْرِ لَحَرِيصٌ.

فَقُلْتُ: بَلْ أَنْتُمْ وَاللهِ أحْرَصُ وَأَبْعَدُ، وَأَنَا أَخَصُّ وَأَقْرَبُ، وَإِنَّمَا طَلَبْتُ حَقّاً لِي وَأَنْتُمْ تَحُولُونَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ، وَتَضْرِبُونَ وَجْهِي دُونَهُ، فَلَمَّا قَرَّعْتُهُ بِالْحُجَّةِ فِي الْملاءِ الْحَاضِرِينَ

هَبَّ كَأَنَّهُ بُهِتَ لاَ يَدْرِي مَا يُجِيبُنِي بِهِ!

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-172-praise-be-allah-whose-view-one-sky

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

Quote

Letter 62: To the people of Egypt sent through Malik al-Ashtar when he was made the Governor of that place

ومن كتاب كتبه (عليه السلام)

إلى أهل مصر مع مالك الاشتر لما ولاّه إمارَتَها

Now, Allah the Glorified, deputed Muhammad (may Allah bless him and his descendants) as a warner for all the worlds and a witness for all the prophets. When the Prophet expired, the Muslims quarrelled about power after him. By Allah, it never occurred to me, and I never imagined, that after the Prophet the Arabs would snatch away the caliphate from his Ahlul Bayt (the members of his house), nor that they would take it away from me after him, but I suddenly noticed people surrounding the man to swear him allegiance. 1

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَإِنَّ اللهَ سُبْحَانَهُ بَعَثَ مُحَمَّداً(صلى الله عليه وآله) نَذِيراً لِلْعَالَمِينَ، وَمُهَيْمِناً عَلَى الْمُرْسَلِينَ. فلمَّا مَضى(صلى الله عليه وآله) تنَازَعَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ الاْمْرَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ، فَوَاللهِ مَا كَانَ يُلْقَى فِي رُوعِي، وَلاَ يَخْطُرُ بِبَالِي، أَنَّ الْعَرَبَ تُزْعِجُ هذَا الاْمْرَ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) عَنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ، وَلاَ أَنَّهُمْ مُنَحُّوهُ عَنِّي مِنْ بَعْدِهِ! فَمَا رَاعَنِي إِلاَّ انْثِيَالُ النَّاسِ عَلَى فُلاَن يُبَايِعُونَهُ،

I therefore withheld my hand till I saw that many people were reverting from Islam and trying to destroy the religion of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and his descendants). I then feared that if I did not protect Islam and its people and there occurred in it a breach or destruction, it would mean a greater blow to me than the loss of power over you which was, in any case, to last for a few days of which everything would pass away as the mirage passes away, or as the cloud scuds away. Therefore, in these happenings I rose till wrong was destroyed and disappeared, and religion attained peace and safety.

فَأَمْسَكْتُ يَدِي حَتَّى رَأيْتُ رَاجِعَةَ النَّاسِ قَدْ رَجَعَتْ عَنِ الاْسْلاَمِ، يَدْعُونَ إِلَى مَحْقِ دِينِ مُحَمَّد (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَخَشِيتُ إِنْ لَمْ أَنْصُرِ الاْسْلاَمَ أَهْلَهُ أَنْ أَرَى فِيهِ ثَلْماً أَوْ هَدْماً، تَكُونُ الْمُصِيبَةُ بِهِ عَلَيَّ أَعْظَمَ مِنْ فَوْتِ وِلاَيَتِكُمُ الَّتِي إِنَّمَا هِيَ مَتَاعُ أَيَّام قَلاَئِلَ، يَزُولُ مِنْهَا مَا كَانَ، كَمَا يَزُولُ السَّرَابُ، أَوْ كَمَا يَتَقَشَّعُ السَّحَابُ، فَنَهَضْتُ فِي تِلْكَ الاْحْدَاثِ حَتَّى زَاحَ الْبَاطِلُ وَزَهَقَ، وَاطْمَأَنَّ الدِّينُ وَتَنَهْنَهَ.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-62-people-egypt-sent-through-malik-al-ashtar-when

Why did you not argue against them (ansar) that the Prophet had left his will that whoever is good among Ansar should be treated well and whoever is bad should be forgiven.

People said: "What is the proof against them in it?"

Amir al-mu'minin said:

"If the Government was for them there should have been no will in their favour."

Then he said:

"What did the Quraysh plead?"

People said: "They argued that they belong to the lineal tree of the Prophet.

Then Amir al-mu'minin said:

"They defended themselves with the plea of the tree but neglected the fruit."

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-67-why-didnt-you-argue

Leave the Quraysh in their rushing into misguidance, their galloping in disunity and their leaping over destruction. They have joined together to fight me as they had joined to fight the Messenger of Allah (S) before me. I wish the Quraysh will get the reward of their treatment of me. For they disregarded my kinship and deprived me of the power due to me from the son of my mother (i.e. the Holy Prophet).

فَدَعْ عَنْكَ قُرَيشاً وَتَرْكَاضَهُمْ فِي الضَّلاَلِ، وَتَجْوَالَهُمْ فِي الشِّقَاقِ، وَجِمَاحَهُمْ فِي التِّيهِ، فَإِنَّهُمْ قَدْ أَجْمَعُوا عَلَى حَرْبِي كَإِجمَاعِهِمْ عَلَى حَرْبِ رَسوُلِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) قَبْلِي، فَجَزَتْ قُرَيْشاً عَنِّي الْجَوَازِي! فَقَدْ قَطَعُوا رَحِمِي، وَسَلَبُونِي سُلْطَانَ ابْنِ أُمِّي.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-36-his-brother-aqil-ibn-abi-talib

O My God! I seek Thy succour against the Quraysh and those who are assisting them, because they are denying me (the rights of) kinship, have lowered my high position, and are united in opposing me in the matter (of the caliphate) which is my right, and then they said, "Know that the rightful thing is that you have it and also that you may leave it." 2

اللَّهُمَّ إنَّي أَسْتَعْدِيكَ عَلى قُرَيْش وَمَنْ أَعَانَهُمْ! فَإِنَّهُمْ قَطَعُوا رَحِمِي، وَصَغَّرُوا عَظِيمَ مَنْزِلَتِي، وَأَجْمَعُوا عَلَى مُنَازَعَتِي أَمْراً هُوَ لِي. ثُمَّ قَالُوا: أَلاَ إنَّ فِي الْحَقِّ أَنْ تَأْخُذَهُ، وَفِي الْحَقِّ أَنْ تَتْرُكَهُ.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-172-praise-be-allah-whose-view-one-sky

http://aminsearch.com/doc/20996731/در-مورد-منصوص-بودن-امامت-حضرت-علی-(علیه-السلام)-از-طرف-خدا-و-رسول-،-یکی-از-شبهاتی-که-مطرح-میشود-اینست-که-خود-حضرت-علی-چنین-ادعایی-را-مطرح-نکرده-است-و-شما

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
9 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

Thanks that’s exactly what I was looking for. I haven’t yet found evidence of Imam Ali (a) actually encouraging the idea that his appointment was divinely decreed.

Salam

Quote

By Allah, I shall not be like the badger, that feigns sleep on continuous (sound of) stone-throwing till he who is in search of it finds it or he who is on the look out for it overpowers it. Rather, I shall ever strike the deviators from truth with the help of those who advance towards it, and the sinners and doubters with the help of those who listen to me and obey, till my day (of death) comes. By Allah I have been continually deprived of my right, with others being given preference to me, from the day the Prophet died till today.

وَاللهِ لاَ أَكُونُ كالضَّبُعِ: تَنَامُ عَلى طُولِ اللَّدْمِ، حَتَّى يَصِلَ إِلَيْهَا طَالِبُهَا،وَيَخْتِلَهَا رَاصِدُها، وَلكِنِّي أَضْرِبُ بِالمُقْبِلِ إِلَى الحَقِّ المُدْبِرَ عَنْهُ، وَبِالسَّامِعِ المُطِيعِ العَاصِيَ المُريبَ أَبَداً، حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ عَلَيَّ يَوْمِي. فَوَاللهِ مَا زِلتُ مَدْفُوعاً عَنْ حَقِّي، مُسْتَأْثَراً عَلَيَّ، مُنْذُ قَبَضَ اللهُ تعالى نَبِيَّهُ (صلى الله عليه وآله) حَتَّى يَوْمِ النَّاسِ هذَا.

Alternative Sources for Sermon 6

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 9/18/2020 at 2:59 PM, BleedKnee said:

Thanks that’s exactly what I was looking for. I haven’t yet found evidence of Imam Ali (a) actually encouraging the idea that his appointment was divinely decreed. 
 

Seems to me at this point that really the only Shias at the time were those that like Ali (a) to be a leader, rather than seeing him as the Divinely appointed Imam. 

 H 483, Ch. 10, h 2 (Alkafi, Vol 1, Part 4)

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Muhammad ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Buray al-‘Ijli from Ima abu Ja'far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following about the words of Allah.

"(Muhammad), you are only a Warner. For every nation there is a guide. (13:7)" The Imam (a. s.) said that at all times there is a guide from us who guides people to the teachings of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) Of the guides who possess Divine authority after the holy Prophet (s.a.) is Amir al-Mu’minin ((عليه السلام).) and his successors one after the other."

Grading  Majlisi Hasan

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The Prophet (saww) himself told Ali b. Abi Talib that he and the Imams from his children will be able to separate the believers from the criminals on the Day of Judgement. The Prophet himself says the Ali will be the divider of those who enter heaven and hell. These aren't small words and neither have they been said for any Abu Tom, Abu Richard, or Abu Harry. If you believe the Shi'as at the time "only saw him as their leader and not as a divinely appointed authority" then you haven't understood wilayah yourself.

قال حدثنا أبو جعفر محمد بن علي بن الحسين قال حدثني أبي قال حدثني محمد بن يحيى العطار قال حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن علي بن الحكم عن هشام بن سالم عن سليمان بن خالد عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد الصادق عن آبائه ع قال قال رسول الله ص لعلي ع

يا علي أنت مني و أنا منك وليك وليي و وليي ولي الله و عدوك عدوي و عدوي عدو الله يا علي أنا حرب لمن حاربك و سلم لمن سالمك يا علي لك كنز في الجنة و أنت ذو قرنيها يا علي أنت قسيم الجنة و النار لا يدخل الجنة إلا من عرفك و عرفته و لا يدخل النار إلا من أنكرك و أنكرته يا علي أنت و الأئمة من ولدك على الأعراف يوم القيامة تعرف المجرمين بسيماهم و المؤمنين بعلاماتهم يا علي لولاك لم يعرف المؤمنون بعدي

Rasul Allah (saww) said: [...] Oh Ali, you and the A’immah from your children are upon al-A`raf on the Day of Judgment, you will recognize the criminals by their marks, and the believers by their signs.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2012/09/merits-of-ali.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Salam,

Maybe we need to follow the history of Arab Quraish prior to Islam.  What were they familiar with and what were introduced to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the Prophet (عليه السلام).

1.  The Arab Quraish were familiar their own culture.  Very much ashabiyyah approach and leadership must be from tribe elders.  Any changes to the system were opposed by them even after they accepted Islam.  The Ashabiyyah concept was very much deeply enshrined in their souls until today.  Islam has failed to break that belief in them except for a few.  This is very much syaitanic originated belief where Iblis made a claim that he was better than Adam  because he was made from fire.  This type of belief already plagued the whole world... Chinese prefer Chinese and oppresses non Chinese,  White over black,  native verse non native, Aryan over other races... 

2.  Islam introduced the concept of leadership where the Leader must have a direct guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), from Adam (عليه السلام) to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).  Humans will never be without a person who will guide them.  Therefore, there will be no more hujjah from all humans that a Guide is never sent down to them in the hereafter.  And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will select those who will guide humans.  Islam introduced the Prophethood and Imamat as Divinely Guided Persons as hujjah to all humans.  The last of physically available Guided Imam will be Al Mahdi (عليه السلام).  Sunnis and Shias believe in the concept of Mahdi.

3.  There will be oppositions to those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) selected/will select.  As in the case of Adam(عليه السلام), Iblis did opposed and he turned into Syaitan. All the Prophets were opposed.  Certainly  the selection of Ali (عليه السلام) as Leader for the Mukminin were opposed.  Even Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) will be opposed.

4.  When the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) drawing near, the concept of "elected Leadership for Arab Quraish as consensus " was not introduced to them.  The concept of Caliphate was an innovation (derived from their past culture...arab ashabiyyah).  Who was closer to Rasulullah by means of culture shall have the right to rule Arab Quraish.  This was nothing to do with Islam.  It was just to satisfy the vacuum on Leadership for Arab Quraish and NOT for Islamic leadership.  Non of those who were presence during Saqifa mentioned that they should be appointed as Leader for Quraish based on Qur'an or directive from the Prophet.

5.  Why Prophet didn't introduced the Concept of Elected Caliphate?  It was never introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Only available options were Nubuwwah and Imamah.  Nubuwwah was sealed.  That was the reason Rasulullah said to the companions "Ali to me as Aaron to Moses, with exception there will be no more Prophethood after me".  But, no mentioned of Khataman Imam, only Khataman Anbiya walmursalin.

6.  As in the of Tauheed and Nubuwwah, muslims are free in term of religion to accept Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophets and Imams as their guides.

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انْفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ {256}

[Shakir 2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made it clear that there is no compulsion in religion, but the truth has been very clear.  Don't follow Syaitans..remember the case of Adam (عليه السلام) and how Iblis opposed the appointment of Adam (عليه السلام).

So Muslims from the time of Adam (عليه السلام) to the Last Prophet(عليه السلام), and the start of Imamate  and until the Last Imam, must make that choice to accept those whom Allahbswt has appointed.

All of Muslims accepted the appointment of Adam (عليه السلام) to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  But majority failed to see whom after the Prophet.  Alhamdulillah, we shall agreed on Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) after lots of killings of those who going to oppose him.

Allahbswt said...

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

So muslims still having problems (in astray) because they keep upholding the first innovation introduced during non divinely appointed Caliph at Saqifa as the way forward.

Wallahualam.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...