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In the Name of God بسم الله

Random Question: Your Muslim Friend Comes Out to You as Gay/Whatever...

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Will they still be your friends? 

Doesn't matter whether they partake in the 'lifestyle' or not. Just given this information, would you still want to hang out with them? Will you still are about them? 

If this is too offensive mods lemme know...I'll delete it after

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If one of my friends did disclose this to me in confidence, I would take his secret with me to the grave, as it is strictly forbidden to expose other people’s sins or weaknesses to others.

Secondly, I would definitely feel uncomfortable around such a person after such a shocking disclosure. I wouldn’t terminate the friendship as long as he remains a good Muslim and doesn’t act on his evil desires. But I would probably start avoiding his company for obvious reasons.

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40 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

If one of my friends did disclose this to me in confidence, I would take his secret with me to the grave, as it is strictly forbidden to expose other people’s sins or weaknesses to others.

Secondly, I would definitely feel uncomfortable around such a person after such a shocking disclosure. I wouldn’t terminate the friendship as long as he remains a good Muslim and doesn’t act on his evil desires. But I would probably start avoiding his company for obvious reasons.

I agree.

I had a friend who was, I told him to read the Quran than he converted!

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows were he is now.

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One day science will find parts of the brain related to sexual desires and how gay people biologically ( physical material difference) are different in the brain vs. heterosexual people. What argument will you have then? If they were born gay its not their fault. 

Same way man is born with forskin.

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I have a friend, he isn't Muslim but I suspect that he may be a closet alphabet person. We had a bit of a back and forth over this story:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/13/world/asia/philippines-us-marine-transgender-woman.html

Which I kind of understand, some people are quite sensitive about that kind of thing. He crossed the line when he took offence to the theme of JK Rowling's new book.

But the bottom line is that I don't know, his brain may have just been rotten by liberalism, I don't see him very often but we go back a long way and whenever I see him he is the same old guy.

I do know this other Muslim guy who people have told me has gay traits, but I have never witnessed that myself, other than him taking umbrage when certain words are used. But I don't think he is gay, and even if he is, he definitely isn't the type of guy to act on it.

I guess it all comes down to how these people behave in public.

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55 minutes ago, pakistanyar said:

One day science will find parts of the brain related to sexual desires and how gay people biologically ( physical material difference) are different in the brain vs. heterosexual people. What argument will you have then? If they were born gay its not their fault. 

Same way man is born with forskin.

Even for the most LGBT-sympathetic person, the biological essentialism argument isn’t as useful anymore considering the complexity in human sexuality. Physiological desires of those of the same gender has always been around, but how those feelings are expressed (whether by monogamous relationships or sleeping with the slave boy as they did back then) often is influenced by society. 
 

Here’s a pretty interesting argument on it: https://aeon.co/essays/why-should-gay-rights-depend-on-being-born-this-way

 

“Desire might be biologically driven, but it moves on tracks laid forth by human culture”

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4 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I should say though that Muslim communities are never gonna rid themselves of homosexuals, ya just can’t. So this tension will always exist. 

Muslim and many other communities have come to a modus vivendi with people of non-orthodox sexualities i.e. they get on with their lives as long as the issue is not thrust into everyone else's face.

And that is not so difficult because discretion also applies to heterosexuals as well.

As Muslims we don't need to face the charge of homophobia as long as we focus on the de-sexualisation of the public space for everyone.

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To answer your question if they are attracted to me I will be creeped out and probably nicely tell them that I can’t keep the friendship.

If they are gay in general I will still keep them as friends but not close friends.

That being said does this hadith condemn being friends with gay people:

Quote

Al-Husayn from Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Imran from ‘Abd Allah ibn Jabalah from Ishaq ibn ‘Ammar who has said the following:

“This is concerning my question before abu ‘Abd Allah (Imam Jafar al Sadiq), ‘Alayhi al-Salam, about the hermaphrodites who suffer because of this misfortune (sexual intercourse in their anus). Will a believing person suffer from this sickness and people think Allah does not allow one whom He finds of any benefit at all to suffer from this sickness. He (the Imam) said, ‘Yes, one may suffer from such sickness and you must not speak to such person because when you speak they find comfort.’ I then asked, ‘I pray to Allah to keep my soul in service for your cause, can they not bear patience?’ He (the Imam) said, ‘They are able to exercise patience but they want to enjoy. If Allah, most High causes one to suffer from such sickness he would be compelled and cannot bear patience or to control himself even in the presence of people. When he feels ashamed before people and does not do it in the presence of people but does it in private then it is not Allah who has caused him to suffer; in fact he enjoys it.’”

Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: مجهول - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (0/400)

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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7 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I should say though that Muslim communities are never gonna rid themselves of homosexuals, ya just can’t. So this tension will always exist. 

It isn't about ridding ourselves of it, it is more about avoiding this kind of nonsense:

https://www.tatler.com/article/mohsin-zaidi-barrister-muslim-gay-a-dutiful-boy-memoir

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4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

To answer your question if they are attracted to me I will be creeped out and probably nicely tell them that I can’t keep the friendship.

If they are gay in general I will still keep them as friends but not close friends.

That being said does this hadith condemn being friends with gay people:

 

Thought we was cool with hermaphodites though. 

Quote

 

"To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; He creates what he wills. He gives to whom He wills female [children], and He gives to whom He wills males.

Or He makes them [both] males and females, and He renders whom He wills barren. Indeed, He is Knowing and Competent." 42:49-50 

 

Quote

"Or He combines them that is to say or He makes them males and females; and He makes whomever He will infertile such that she is unable to conceive or he cannot have a child. Surely He is Knower of what He creates Powerful in bringing about whatever He will." Tafsir al-Jalalayn

 

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4 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

Thought we was cool with hermaphodites though. 

 

I think it might be referring to those people who enjoy it up the .... if u refer to the hadith. But it sounds extreme to me because it says don’t even talk to them as they might find comfort from u talking to them :censored:.

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4 hours ago, notme said:

Why are straight males afraid of homosexual males? Do you think they might try to force themselves upon you?

No that’s not the reason we are uncomfortable being around them. There is no fear of being “forced upon”, but there is the legitimate discomfort of being “hit on” by some homo, or knowing that you are dealing with someone who could potentially be sexually attracted to you. It would be very uncomfortable having a normal friendship with such a person for obvious reasons.

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5 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

No that’s not the reason we are uncomfortable being around them. There is no fear of being “forced upon”, but there is the legitimate discomfort of being “hit on” by some homo, or knowing that you are dealing with someone who could potentially be sexually attracted to you. It would be very uncomfortable having a normal friendship with such a person for obvious reasons.

Does the same apply to your interaction with women? 

Why is a man being attracted to you something to feel uncomfortable about? From my (female) point of view, that has no impact whatsoever on you or your life. Even if he asks you out, you can just say no, nothing happens.

Women, especially young or attractive women, constantly have to deal with being "hit on" by men. How is that different from a man being "hit on" by a gay man? (Aside from potential for legitimate marriage if the advances are wanted - which they almost never are.)

Given that men feel uncomfortable in the presence of gay men because they might be attracted to them, should all women feel uncomfortable in the presence of all straight men? And also should all men feel uncomfortable in the presence of women? 

If yes, how would society function like that? 

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This happened to me, except that that friend of mine was a non-Muslim guy. 

I realised only a few years ago, but yeah I did stop hanging out with him and not just cos of this but also cos his lifestyle started becoming more and more anti-Islamic.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Why is a man being attracted to you something to feel uncomfortable about?

I think during high school I was being hit on by a man that might have been gay. He always very gave long handshakes and long hugs. After playing sports my back was once aching and he gave me a massage and told me to close my eyes. It was very uncomfortable to say the least. I was such a fool that I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to come across as homophobic or rude.

Homosexual acts aren’t something we should take lightly 

Quote

Imam ar-Riďa ((عليه السلام).) has remarked,

“When a person kisses a young man sensually, the angels of the sky, the angels of the earth, the angels of mercy, and the angels of wrath curse him. And Allah decrees for him a place in Hell. O, what a dreadful place it is!”10
https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy

 

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3 hours ago, Guest Baqir Kazmi said:

Homosexual acts aren’t something we should take lightly

Ok, but unless you fear that you, yourself might be tempted, why worry about the morality of other people? If they are a close friend or relative, you might advise them, but if they're a stranger, acquaintance, colleague, or classmate, why even be bothered by it? 

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6 hours ago, notme said:

Does the same apply to your interaction with women? 

Why is a man being attracted to you something to feel uncomfortable about? From my (female) point of view, that has no impact whatsoever on you or your life. Even if he asks you out, you can just say no, nothing happens.

Women, especially young or attractive women, constantly have to deal with being "hit on" by men. How is that different from a man being "hit on" by a gay man? (Aside from potential for legitimate marriage if the advances are wanted - which they almost never are.)

Given that men feel uncomfortable in the presence of gay men because they might be attracted to them, should all women feel uncomfortable in the presence of all straight men? And also should all men feel uncomfortable in the presence of women? 

If yes, how would society function like that? 

Friendships of the same sex have an element of candidness and openness that can only be possible if both friends are attracted to the opposite sex and there is no potential for attraction to each other. Anyone who went to High School and knows how young men stick together in groups, how they talk and behave in the locker room, or in sports, and so forth, knows what I mean. When it comes to ladies, then men behave with a bit more caution and are not as open, and vice versa, unless both a man and woman are in a personal, romantic relationship.

In society, there is an unwritten rule that men and women have some kind of separation and behave more professionally when interacting with each other (this is all the more true in the Muslim world). But when you introduce the gay factor, that is disrupted big time.

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17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

No that’s not the reason we are uncomfortable being around them. There is no fear of being “forced upon”, but there is the legitimate discomfort of being “hit on” by some homo, or knowing that you are dealing with someone who could potentially be sexually attracted to you. It would be very uncomfortable having a normal friendship with such a person for obvious reasons.

I believe that you're extremely handsome brother, but that's still never gonna happen. In any part of the world, homosexuals generally tend to go to certain circles where they can confidently expect that men there would also be homosexual. Gay bars, cafes, etc.

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14 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

I believe that you're extremely handsome brother

I’m no Tom Cruise, but I’m alright. I definitely stand out in Pakistan. Although I'm a Punjabi-Hyderabadi mix, but most people assume I'm Pathan.

I'm 5'11", have a fair complexion and hazel colored irises. I suspect my ancestors way back were Khatri Hindus, but it's somewhat speculative.

Sadly, when you go to Punjab province of Pakistan, people have deteriorated in their physical appearance and stature because of continuous cousin marriage, generation after generation, and because of poor nutrition. Fat, ugly noses, tiny beady eyes - a sign of lack of genetic diversity IMHO.

14 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

In any part of the world, homosexuals generally tend to go to certain circles where they can confidently expect that men there would also be homosexual. Gay bars, cafes, etc.

Every straight guy, myself included, can tell you at least two or three stories where some homo tried to make unwanted advances.

You may be right that this is generally not the case, but my point is that a straight man and a homo can practically never be close friends. Just like a platonic relationship between two young individuals, a man and a woman, will probably not last or not remain platonic for long. At least in a man-woman friendship both sides are usually attracted to each other, but in a straight-homo friendship the attraction is a one way street.

Edited by Cherub786
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On 9/16/2020 at 6:57 PM, BleedKnee said:

 Physiological desires of those of the same gender has always been around, but how those feelings are expressed (whether by monogamous relationships or sleeping with the slave boy as they did back then) often is influenced by society. 

 

whaaa please do link more info on the slave boy thing.... 

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7 hours ago, pakistanyar said:

whaaa please do link more info on the slave boy thing.... 

Yeah sure, there's this great article on the history of gay rights and sexuality that talks a bit about past. Even in Muslim empires, at least for those of the elite, it was assumed that 'right hand possess'  didn't have any gender connotation, and as such sleeping with slave boys was a perfectly normal thing. Such as with the Ottomans.

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17 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Every straight guy, myself included, can tell you at least two or three stories where some homo tried to make unwanted advances.

You may be right that this is generally not the case, but my point is that a straight man and a homo can practically never be close friends

I don't think the same applies to women. Plenty of straight women have lesbian (probably non-Muslim) friends and never think anything of it. She's no different from any other friend. 

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