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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) take women and children with him?

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Was it to sacrifice them, based on the hadith that he was given the choice between victory and return to Allah, or was it because he legitimately wanted to be victorious as brother Ibn al Hussain said in his topic?

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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Was it to sacrifice them, based on the hadith that he was given the choice between victory and return to Allah, or was it because he legitimately wanted to be victorious as brother Ibn al Hussain said in his topic?

Good question. Taking women and children is never done if one intends to fight a battle. This is solid proof that Imam Husain رضى الله عنه never intended to fight a battle. He was simply migrating with his family to Kufah.

But the Twelver doctrine that the Imams are omniscient (have knowledge of literally everything) and that they do not die except voluntarily, doesn’t jive well with the above stated fact.

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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Was it to sacrifice them, based on the hadith that he was given the choice between victory and return to Allah, or was it because he legitimately wanted to be victorious as brother Ibn al Hussain said in his topic?

 

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37 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

But the Twelver doctrine that the Imams are omniscient (have knowledge of literally everything) and that they do not die except voluntarily, doesn’t jive well with the above stated fact.

It seems like this guy has nothing better to do than to constantly misrepresent Twelver creed. 

Refer to this thread, where brother @Ibn al-Hussain who is well versed in Twelver theology as he has been studying in the seminaries in Qum for many years now, explains that the belief that "the Imams know everything" is not what Shi'as believe:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235063650-were-the-prophets-marriages-to-aisha-hafsa-a-colossal-mistake/?do=findComment&comment=3238340

See here as well:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235063650-were-the-prophets-marriages-to-aisha-hafsa-a-colossal-mistake/?do=findComment&comment=3238355

Shaykh al-Mufid actually says that the only consensus among us is that the Imams have knowledge of all the rulings, but beyond that, there is a difference of opinion. So Mr. Cherub here is lying about Twelver doctrine. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt
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8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Was it to sacrifice them, based on the hadith that he was given the choice between victory and return to Allah, or was it because he legitimately wanted to be victorious as brother Ibn al Hussain said in his topic?

Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام) brought his Family because he wanted to show the Ummah that Banu Ummaya ruling the Islamic Ummah is a terrible thing. History narrates what the people of Syria did to the Family of Imam al Husayn (عليه السلام).

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19 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

It seems like this guy has nothing better to do than to constantly misrepresent Twelver creed. 

 "the Imams know everything" is not what Shi'as believe:

So Mr. Cherub here is lying about Twelver doctrine. 

The chapter headings of Kitab al-Hujjah in al-Kafi represent the official creed of the Twelvers. Kulayni then quotes narrations to back up that creed. One of those chapter headings is:

Quote

The Imams ((عليه السلام).) do have the knowledge of what was and will be, and that nothing is unknown to them

And in this chapter is the following narration attributed to Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq: “I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was and what will be.”

466241341_ImamsKnowEverything.NothingHiddenfromThem(alKafiv_1p.155).png.93329839b6fabb981451f1a629f4f89b.png

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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

The chapter headings of Kitab al-Hujjah in al-Kafi represent the official creed of the Twelvers. Kulayni then quotes narrations to back up that creed. One of those chapter headings is:

Who said the chapter headings of al Kafi represent Twelver creed? The Imams? Is this a consensus and necessary belief that all Twelver scholars have said that the chapter headings of al Kafi represent the necessary beliefs of Twelver creed?

The chapter headings simply summarize the general topic that the ahadith in the chapter will pertain to. Those ahadith could be weak or inauthentic. If the chapter only contains narrations which are weak and narrated by ghulat, how can the chapter heading be considered creed?

5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

And in this chapter is the following narration attributed to Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq: “I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was and what will be.”

466241341_ImamsKnowEverything.NothingHiddenfromThem(alKafiv_1p.155).png.93329839b6fabb981451f1a629f4f89b.png

Yep, weak hadith.

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42 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The chapter headings of Kitab al-Hujjah in al-Kafi represent the official creed of the Twelvers. Kulayni then quotes narrations to back up that creed. One of those chapter headings is:

And in this chapter is the following narration attributed to Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq: “I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was and what will be.”

466241341_ImamsKnowEverything.NothingHiddenfromThem(alKafiv_1p.155).png.93329839b6fabb981451f1a629f4f89b.png

Hadith is Weak according to Allamah Majlisi and Behbudi

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43 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Who said the chapter headings of al Kafi represent Twelver creed?

This is the explanation of the chapter I quoted, by Ja’far al-Shirazi. According to him, the Imams have knowledge of كل شىء “everything”

Untitled.png.f21902c20316d650763c021732ea301a.png579613762_ImamsKnowEverything.NothingHiddenfromThem(SharhalKafiv_4p.170)Shirazi.png.bdc4188f27e9609c28afd78aa8e0a104.png

Whether the particular narration is authentic or weak is immaterial. The belief that nothing is hidden from the knowledge of your Imams is part of Twelver dogma.

Edited by Cherub786
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Would appreciate your comments on this topic 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235068038-does-imam-ali-have-knowledge-of-all-things-except-creation/?tab=comments#comment-3311344

Al Qummi said that the Surah yasin verse saying all things are preserved in the manifest Imam refers to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). ^^

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

2) Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu'aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed they claim!" Imam (عليه السلام) asked: "And what do they claim?" I said: "They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand."So Imam (عليه السلام) raised his hand towards the sky and said: "Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)."

  Quote

الشيخ رشيد الدين محمد بن شهرآشوب المازندراني المتوفى عام 586هـ  يقول في كتابه «متشابه القرآن ومختلفه» (طبع طهران، ج1/ص211) ما نصُّهُ:
«النبيّ والإمام يجب أن يعلما علوم الدين والشريعة ولا يجب أن يعلما الغيب وما كان وما يكون، لأنّ ذلك يؤدّي إلى أنّهما مشاركان للقديم تعالى

Ibn Shahr Ashoob (586 AH) wrote in his book Mutashabih al Qur'an (Volume 1 page 211): "The Prophet and the Imam must have full knowledge of the Islamic laws,but it is not incumbent upon them to have knowledge of ghaib, after all that would then mean that they are partners of Allah".
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235022950-do-the-imams-know-everything/

Edited by 313_Waiter
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9 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

This is the explanation of the chapter I quoted, by Ja’far al-Shirazi. According to him, the Imams have knowledge of كل شىء “everything”

His words are not hujjah, nor are representative of Twelver creed. I can bring you 50 other scholars who say the opposite. 

As I already mentioned, Shyakh al-Mufid literally says that there is no consensus on the extent of the Imams knowledge besides knowledge of Islamic rulings. 

10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Whether the particular narration is authentic or weak is immaterial. The belief that nothing is hidden from the knowledge of your Imams is part of Twelver dogma.

Don't make me laugh more, you are really embarrassing yourself now.

A weak hadith means it is part of Twelver dogma. How comedic is that. 

A weak hadith is not even consider in fiqh, let alone aqeedah.

 

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25 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Whether the particular narration is authentic or weak is immaterial. The belief that nothing is hidden from the knowledge of your Imams is part of Twelver dogma

You really don't wanna go there bud

We too can play the weak Hadith trick

So I advise we not go there

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11 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Was it to sacrifice them, based on the hadith that he was given the choice between victory and return to Allah, or was it because he legitimately wanted to be victorious as brother Ibn al Hussain said in his topic?

Before we begin this discussion, you should read all the sermons and letters Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) wrote between Medina and Karbala.

His intent was clear from the onset.

Edited by ShiaMan14
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Imam Sajjad (P) assigned the responsibility of performing and executing the missions for which he himself was apparently responsible to the learned woman Zeinab (P) while she was enduring the worst crises. Indeed, the culture of Ashoora is a culture wherein women and men partake in the open and the fact is that when people asked Imam Hosein (P) why he took women to the battlefield knowing that he would not win the battle and he replied: 

شاء ان يريهنَّ سبايا 

“God had wanted them to be captives

http://www.shiavault.com/books/woman-s-dignity-in-the-words-of-amir-ul-muminin-ali-ibn-abi-talib/chapters/4-can-you-give-an-explanation-on-imam-s-p-prohibition-on-consultation-with-woman-mentioned-in-nahjul-balaghah

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