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In the Name of God بسم الله

matam and tatbir sunnah?

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Anyone that performs tatbir is silly. Remember the faze of teenage girls cutting themselves over Justin Bieber or zayn Malik? Sounds silly right? Well cutting yourself thinking you love imam Hussein doesn’t make sense. Go donate blood or pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and make dua for imam Hussein which I’m sure is more beneficial than cutting yourself 

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33 minutes ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Tatbir makes Shias look bad. If you search up Shia, the first thing you see is something related to tatbir. People should just ask themselves, if Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) or if any of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) saw this, would they approve? Definitely not. Okay maybe you're trying to express love for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام), but is this really the best expression of love. People are actually turning away from Shiaism because of this. Tatbir just doesn't make sense, light taps on the chest is fine, but having blood being split in this way is extremely wrong.

100% it turns people off problem is no one is taking a stand and stopping this 

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We don't live our life trying to be liked by others. It's simply a way to express grief. If one decides to donate blood or let it flow out through tatbir; it is the individuals choice. If It's out of love, then what's the issue? Anyway, some maraja allow it, it's better to see that they are coming from somewhere. 

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1 minute ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

We don't live our life trying to be liked by others. It's simply a way to express grief. If one decides to donate blood or let it flow out through tatbir; it is the individuals choice. If It's out of love, then what's the issue? Anyway, some maraja allow it, it's better to see that they are coming from somewhere. 

I understand what you mean, but isn't tatbir ruining the reputation of the shias, because shias are attributed to this and it turns people off. So this individuals choice is having a big impact on everyone.

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▪︎Taṭbīr (self flagellation) came from the Christians. 

There is a difference of opinions as to the origins of Taṭbīr. The likes of Shaykh al-Muṭahhari took the opinion that it was from the practices of the Christians that eventually found its way to us through the Orthodox of Caucasus . (Al-Jithib wal-Dafaʿ fi Shakhṣiyat al-Imām ʿAlī, Page 165.)

Dr. Alī Sharīʿati added that the timeframe was around the Ṣafavid era . (Al-Tashayyuʿ al-ʿAlawi wa al-Tashayyuʿ al-Ṣafawi, Page 208.)

Sheikh Ḥaydar Ḥubb-Allāh, adopted the opinion that the origins of Taṭbīr was during the Qajar dynasty. The one responsible for introducing it was al-Fādhl al-Darabandi in a ritual for the revival of ʿĀshūrā’. (Jadal wa Muwāqif fī al-ʿĀshir al-Ḥussainiyyah, Page 69.)

Aḥmed al-ʿĀmiri al-Nāṣiri adopted the opinion that the origins of Taṭbīr was from the Turks during the Ottoman dynasty under al-Ghāzi Murād Khān the first. This is from the affairs that is linked with the Inkishāri army. And there are other opinions which has no benefit to us in mentioning. (Al-Taṭbīr – Its History and stories, Page 42.)

As for our opinion, we outright reject that Taṭbīr could have originated from the Inkishāri army since the Ottoman empire was the arch-enemies of the Safavid empire; and it goes against the intellect to suggest that the Safavid empire would blindly adopt the practices of their enemies. 

For the one who looks deeply into the books of history, he will see that the strongest opinion is that Taṭbīr originated – in the way that it is practiced today – from the Safavid dynasty in Iran, a practice which crept into theirs through Caucasus.

From Sheikh Nami Farhat.

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17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

We don't live our life trying to be liked by others. It's simply a way to express grief. If one decides to donate blood or let it flow out through tatbir; it is the individuals choice. If It's out of love, then what's the issue? Anyway, some maraja allow it, it's better to see that they are coming from somewhere. 

Sorry my fellow Australian I am going to have to disagree. Tell me what is more beneficial donating or praying to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to bless Hussein or cutting? If I cut myself over a celebrity example Justin Bieber because I love him so much (which I don’t) but is that okay because I’m doing it out of love? 

 Walking on hot coal for the sake of Hussein which people started doing and copying the Hindus because they say it is out of love of Hussein.

whats next? can I kick your downstairs like the monks do if you’ve seen the videos I don’t know how they do it but would you do it and feel the pain for imams Hussein? Sounds silly right? Well that’s what’s happening. Stop following culture and follow Islam. If something is halal/ok doesn’t mean you should do it or over do it.

Edited by Ali2196
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Those who perform tatbir are not doing any haraam. They follow their marja. Neither Ali Shariati nor Nami Farhat nor any random Internet guy is a anyone's Mujtahid so their views doesn't matter. Some people don't even get basics. Listen to Sayyed Ammar Nakshawani's tatbir (explanation) lecture. 

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On 9/15/2020 at 1:29 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

Those who perform tatbir are not doing any haraam. They follow their marja. Neither Ali Shariati nor Nami Farhat nor any random Internet guy is a anyone's Mujtahid so their views doesn't matter. Some people don't even get basics. Listen to Sayyed Ammar Nakshawani's tatbir (explanation) lecture. 

And if a scholar one day comes out and says it’s halal to drink alcohol at moderate limits and they’ve somehow backed up their argument does that means it’s fine? You have to know when wrong is wrong. I’m a nobody I know that but come on they are making it as if it’s sunnah/wajib/mustahab to cut yourself rather it should be “ pray and make dua” as mustab

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3 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

And if a scholar one day comes out and says it’s halal to drink alcohol at moderate limits and they’ve somehow backed up their argument does that means it’s fine?

Apple and Oranges. Alcohol consumption is haraam and has clear proof in Qur'an as well as hadith. So no mujtahid is going to say it's allowed. Tatbir is a way of commemorating Azadari. It doesn't have specific rules nor is it forbidden. Therefore, we turn towards Mujtahid we follow. 

3 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

I’m a nobody I know that but come on they are making it as if it’s sunnah/wajib/mustahab to cut yourself

Yes, you are no one and nor am I. That's the reason we emulate those who know. And it's not one or two, there are/were many mujtahid who permitted tatbir and considered it as mustahab. 

3 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

as if it’s sunnah/wajib/mustahab to cut yourself rather it should be “ pray and make dua” as mustab

Why choose one. Why not both? 

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I find it kinda hypocritical how we bring in our own opinions and logic simply cos we follow the views of a particular group of maraja.

If every single maraja agreed that tatbir was allowed, then I would love to see whether Shias would still shame those who do tatbir. Very interesting. At the end of the day the laymen should refrain from giving such strong opinions. It's a matter of choice who does tatbir. 

Reputation of Shias are at stake? I still see people joining our madhab despite tatbir. If Allah wants to guide others, he will. 

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4 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I find it kinda hypocritical how we bring in our own opinions and logic simply cos we follow the views of a particular group of maraja.

If every single maraja agreed that tatbir was allowed, then I would love to see whether Shias would still shame those who do tatbir. Very interesting. At the end of the day the laymen should refrain from giving such strong opinions. It's a matter of choice who does tatbir. 

Reputation of Shias are at stake? I still see people joining our madhab despite tatbir. If Allah wants to guide others, he will. 

Just because something is ok doesn’t mean it should be done and when I mean done most go overboard lol. People cut themselves (non Muslims) because they are depressed/suicidal so it seems like it’s the same. Of coarse we should be upset about our beloved Hussein (عليه السلام) but come on just like tattoos just because some say it’s permissible doesn’t mean yallah that’s it I’m gonna get my body head to toe tattooed you know because it’s permissible. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:41 AM, Lion of Shia said:

i read some where in a book that tatbir and shedding of blood and adziari rituals are sunnah in 12er from an ahkbari book, what do usulis say?

The act of tatbir didn't even exist a couple of centuries ago, so obviously it isn't a sunnah. 

The akhbari school traditionally referred almost exclusively to hadith (where tatbir is nowhere to be found), and the usuli references don't include such an act either.

In short, it's not a sunnah because neither the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) nor the aimmah (عليه السلام) ever did such a thing.

Regarding it's permissibility, as others have mentioned it depends on which jurist you refer to. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 5:48 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

Sayed Ali Sistani (most followed) does not have any fatwa regarding this matter. 

Actually, Sistani says you should avoid it,

http://ijtihadnet.com/shia-scholars-fatwas-on-tatbir/

AyatUllah_Ali_Sistani_Reply.gif

Edited by Ansur Shiat Ali
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On 9/15/2020 at 2:36 AM, Ali2196 said:

And if a scholar one day comes out and says it’s halal to drink alcohol at moderate limits and they’ve somehow backed up their argument does that means it’s fine? 

Outside of tatbir, same thing basically applies. People should not be afraid to exercise reason whenever assessing the arguments made by their religious leaders. It's their job to make the religion understandable to us. Not for us to simply listen to their rulings just cuz. 

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13 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Actually, Sistani says you should avoid it,

http://ijtihadnet.com/shia-scholars-fatwas-on-tatbir/

AyatUllah_Ali_Sistani_Reply.gif

This answer is a little confusing still. Mainly because what could be considered as respecting "the signs and symbols of Religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (a), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam" can depend on the culture. You know what I mean? 

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On 9/14/2020 at 7:53 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

it is the individuals choice. If It's out of love, then what's the issue?

No it’s not the individuals choice, it is what has been established as a legitimate way to mourn Imam Hussein, otherwise you’ll give precedence to other ways of “mourning”, ever heard of the dogs of ruqaya? 

On 9/14/2020 at 7:53 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Anyway, some maraja allow

Those who allow it are doing so for reasons that are more political then it being a sunnah, of course I’d be surprised for anyone to argue it is sunnah.

18 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

If every single maraja agreed that tatbir was allowed

Red herring fallacy

18 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

At the end of the day the laymen should refrain from giving such strong opinions

Majority of scholars are against tatbir, if it causes a bad image against Islam.

Imam Khomeini/Khamenei - forbidden

Khoei - forbidden if it tarnishes image 

Sistani - forbidden is it tarnishes image 

Obviously it tarnishes the image just put two and two together....

18 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Reputation of Shias are at stake? I still see people joining our madhab despite tatbir. If Allah wants to guide others, he will. 

Why give any legitimacy for practices that have no basis in the sunnah, nor Shariah. Why not advocate for maintaining our authentic traditions in lamenting the Ahlulbayt and disregard that which came later on, or was bored from the Christians/Hindus. 

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23 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Khoei - forbidden if it tarnishes image 

Sistani - forbidden is it tarnishes image 

So in summary they have nothing against the act of tatbir or the evidence other scholars use. At the end of the day, it isn't 'harram' to do tatbir. No one advocates for it, but those who choose to practice it, we can't consider it 'harram' or 'forbidden'.

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7 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Sistani - forbidden is it tarnishes image 

It is well known that Ayatollah al Sistani does not give any opinion on this matter. 

http://ijtihadnet.com/ayatollah-sistanis-opinion-on-tatbir/

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10 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Actually, Sistani says you should avoid it,

http://ijtihadnet.com/shia-scholars-fatwas-on-tatbir/

AyatUllah_Ali_Sistani_Reply.gif

This is also present on his website in Q&A section. I don't see anywhere 'It is forbidden' kind of thing. 

He doesn't have any fatwa. See brother Astruggler's post above. 

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Your asking the wrong question or at any rate a pointless question, because obviously people who engage in such activities aren't people for whom following the sunna is a top priority. 

And to be fair to them, they never claim to put much value in following the sunna, it is just useful for the issues where they can use it against the sunnis, other than that it doesn't mean much to them. You can never win an argument by trying to establish how the Messenger of Allah (s) behaved in a particular situation.

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2 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Your asking the wrong question or at any rate a pointless question, because obviously people who engage in such activities aren't people for whom following the sunna is a top priority. 

And to be fair to them, they never claim to put much value in following the sunna, it is just useful for the issues where they can use it against the sunnis, other than that it doesn't mean much to them. You can never win an argument by trying to establish how the Messenger of Allah (s) behaved in a particular situation.

i asked because i read it in a book which questions other shia sects particularly the usulis, i dont know what school the author followed but according to his book tatbir and matam is sunnah.

Edited by Lion of Shia
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21 minutes ago, Lion of Shia said:

i asked because i read it in a book which questions other shia sects particularly the usulis, i dont know what school the author followed but according to his book tatbir and matam is sunnah.

Which book is that?

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I have heard someone justify it in this way: “Yes, it is harām to do self-harm but things that are harām become halal for the sake of Abu ‘Abdullah al Husayn. For example, putting dirt on yourself and eating it is harām unless it is khak-e-shifa”.

This would be interesting since maraji’ like Ayatullah Sayed Sistani said that it is to be “avoided” if it damages the reputation of Islam but he did not outright call it harām. How many other maraji’ have given such fatāwā?

Edited by 313_Waiter
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This article takes a detailed look at the subject. Full text is available because it is open access.

Read with caution.

Motivations are ascribed to jurists' fatwas, which may simply be imperialist pot-stirring.

Quote

Shiis perform a number of rituals on the first 10 days of the Islamic month of Muḥarram to mourn the killing of the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad, Husayn, in Karbala in southern Iraq in 680CE. Among the most controversial rituals is the practice of blood-letting self-flagellation (taṭbīr). This article provides a comprehensive discussion of debates around this ritual among prominent Shii clerical figures of the 20th and 21st centuries. While the vast majority of senior clerics is either sympathetic to taṭbīr or retains an indifferent attitude, clerical interventions critical of it are informed by the discursive parameters of Islamic modernism and emphasize the universal moral and socio-political message of Husayn’s revolt. These debates also point at concerns over inter-sectarian relations between Sunnis and Shiis and efforts to discard Shii ritual practices that could antagonize Sunni Muslims. Finally, these debates contain an important political dimension reflecting contestations around Iran’s aim to exercise hegemony over Shii communities across the world. The 1994 fatwa by the Supreme Leader of the Islamic Republic ‘Ali Khamenei (b. 1939) in which he declared taṭbīr prohibited (ḥarām) has hardened existing cleavages between those supporting and those rejecting this practice, as this article illustrates.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13530194.2022.2057279

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