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In the Name of God بسم الله

is it true shias will divide in to 13 sects and all but one goes to hell?


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7 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

can you name them?

Broadly speaking, the main branches of the Shi’ah are the Kaisaniya, Zaidiya, Imamiya, Isma’iliya and Ghaliya. These further split into countless sects. The main ones I’ve listed below

  1. Kaisaniya

    a. Mukhtariya b. Hashimiya c. Bayaniya d. Rizamiya e. Karbiya f. Rawandiya

  2. Zaidiya

    a. Jarudiya b. Sulaimaniya c. Salihiya d. Batriya e. Dukainiya

  3. Imamiya

    a. Baqiriya b. Nawusiya c. Aftahiya d. Shumaitiya e. Isma’iliya al-Khalisa f. Musawiya g. Muhammadiya h. Bishriya i. Mu’allifa j. Muhadditha k. Ahmadiya

    14 additional sects after the death of Hasan al-Askari including the Ithna Ashariya and Nafisiya

  4. Isma’iliya

    a. Mubarakiya b. Qaramita c. Hafiziya d. Nizariya e. Musta’aliya

  5. Ghaliya

    a. Saba’iya b. Kamiliya c. Alba’iya d. Mughiriya e. Mansuriya f. Khattabiya g. Kayyaliya h. Hishamiya i. Nu’maniya j. Yunusiya k. Nusairiya l. Ishaqiya m. Zarariya n. Abu Muslimiya

Sects continued to split up and give rise to more, especially the Isma’iliya until today. I’ve listed at least 55 sects.

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On 9/15/2020 at 9:40 PM, Cherub786 said:

Broadly speaking, the main branches of the Shi’ah are the Kaisaniya, Zaidiya, Imamiya, Isma’iliya and Ghaliya. These further split into countless sects. The main ones I’ve listed below

  1. Kaisaniya

    a. Mukhtariya b. Hashimiya c. Bayaniya d. Rizamiya e. Karbiya f. Rawandiya

  2. Zaidiya

    a. Jarudiya b. Sulaimaniya c. Salihiya d. Batriya e. Dukainiya

  3. Imamiya

    a. Baqiriya b. Nawusiya c. Aftahiya d. Shumaitiya e. Isma’iliya al-Khalisa f. Musawiya g. Muhammadiya h. Bishriya i. Mu’allifa j. Muhadditha k. Ahmadiya

    14 additional sects after the death of Hasan al-Askari including the Ithna Ashariya and Nafisiya

  4. Isma’iliya

    a. Mubarakiya b. Qaramita c. Hafiziya d. Nizariya e. Musta’aliya

  5. Ghaliya

    a. Saba’iya b. Kamiliya c. Alba’iya d. Mughiriya e. Mansuriya f. Khattabiya g. Kayyaliya h. Hishamiya i. Nu’maniya j. Yunusiya k. Nusairiya l. Ishaqiya m. Zarariya n. Abu Muslimiya

Sects continued to split up and give rise to more, especially the Isma’iliya until today. I’ve listed at least 55 sects.

Hi, just want to ask you for educative basis, how many of these sects are currently still practising their believes, and how many of these sects have now become extinct ? Also, without being bias, how many sub sects that have come and gone within  Sunni'sm ? In my estimation probably about 50+

You dont have to answer the second part of the question if you dont feel its relevant to the topic thanks.

 

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On 9/16/2020 at 1:10 AM, Cherub786 said:

Imamiya

a. Baqiriya b. Nawusiya c. Aftahiya d. Shumaitiya e. Isma’iliya al-Khalisa f. Musawiya g. Muhammadiya h. Bishriya i. Mu’allifa j. Muhadditha k. Ahmadiya

Surly all of A to K are extincted that nobody follows A to K also "e. Isma’iliya al-Khalisa " is not subsect of Imamiya which must be categories  under 4.Isma’iliya which you can replace it with extincted b. Qaramita  also No1. Kaisaniya & all of it's subgroups is extincted same as 5.Ghaliya but I know will insist on it like you fabricated  a fatwa that chicken is Haram for Shias :hahaha:

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On 9/18/2020 at 9:30 AM, power said:

Hi, just want to ask you for educative basis, how many of these sects are currently still practising their believes, and how many of these sects have now become extinct ?

Many of the Shi’ah sects are extinct, though others have been born and continue to split off. Recently (2014), with the death of the 52nd Da’i al-Mutlaq, Burhanuddin, the Dawudi Bohra sect of Isma’ilis split up over the succession issue. The main faction is led by Mufaddal Saifuddin, but a schismatic group recognizes Khuzaima Qutbuddin and now his son Taher Fakhruddin as the 53rd and 54th Da’i al-Mutlaq respectively. There are literally dozens of different Isma’ili-Tayibi sects all a consequence of succession disputes to the office of Da’i al-Mutlaq.

It is often argued, erroneously, that Sunnis are divided into four sects (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanbali), but these are not sects, only four different schools of jurisprudence which recognize each other as valid and orthodox. But if this argument is to be made, the Shi’ah will have to realize that every Marja and his muqallidin in the world of Shi’ism is a distinct sect too!

12 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

There are way more than 72/73 Christian sects.

Yes, the Hadith which numbers of the sects as seventy something can be interpreted to mean multiple sects, as seventy is an expression in Arabic to signify countless or numerous. The Hadith then means that Muslims will divide even more than the Christians, who divided even more than the Jews.

Alternatively, it means that at a certain point in history there were 71 main branches of Judaism (which further subdivided), and 72 main branches of Christianity which subdivided, and finally, there are 73 main branches of Islam which have all subdivided into hundreds if not thousands of groups.

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8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

divided into four sects (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanbali), but these are not sects, only four different schools of jurisprudence which recognize each other as valid and orthodox. But if this argument is to be made, the Shi’ah will have to realize that every Marja and his muqallidin in the world of Shi’ism is a distinct sect too!

Non of 4 main Sunni sects of Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki & Hanbali even can't reach an agreement that where is position of folded hands during their Namaz but every Shia Maraja & Mualids have same type of Namaz only difference in Shia Marjas is their viewpoint about controversial issues that is also common between sunnis too  but it doesn't mean that every marja leads a sect but people like you are trying to prove your false idea with any means. 

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Non of 4 main Sunni sects of Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki & Hanbali even can't reach an agreement that where is position of folded hands during their Namaz but every Shia Maraja & Mualids have same type of Namaz only difference in Shia Marjas is their viewpoint about controversial issues that is also common between sunnis too  but it doesn't mean that every marja leads a sect but people like you are trying to prove your false idea with any means. 

The position of the hands in Salat is not a creedal point, or a fundamental aspect of the Religion difference over entailing sectarianism. On the contrary, it is a minor point of jurisprudence of interpretation with regard to the ceremonial laws.

Your comment also reveals that you imagine the Twelver Marjas have absolutely no difference with respect to the interpretation of ceremonial laws related to the Salat. What about the famous dispute regarding the recitation of Aliun Waliullah in Tashahhud and in the Adhan? That is significantly greater issue then where to fold the hands in Qiyam.

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35 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Your comment also reveals that you imagine the Twelver Marjas have absolutely no difference with respect to the interpretation of ceremonial laws related to the Salat. What about the famous dispute regarding the recitation of Aliun Waliullah in Tashahhud and in the Adhan? That is significantly greater issue then where to fold the hands in Qiyam.

if you read their Rislas then you will see that all of them agree on that saying Aliun Waliullah in Tashahhud and in the Adhan is optional which is not compulsory in Adhan but minorities like Shirazi grouplet are insisting on it as a shia slogan but even they agree that it is not compulsory in Adhan but in any sunni sect you can find a great difference in Halal & Haram foods. 

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30 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

if you read their Rislas then you will see that all of them agree on that saying Aliun Waliullah in Tashahhud and in the Adhan is optional which is not compulsory in Adhan but minorities like Shirazi grouplet are insisting on it as a shia slogan but even they agree that it is not compulsory in Adhan but in any sunni sect you can find a great difference in Halal & Haram foods. 

The Shi’i scholar in Pakistan, Allamah Muhammad Husain al-Najafi, known as "Dhaku" says it is a bid'ah and therefore haram:

image.jpeg.e9eff570c42a7f9320cc35722e5bc294.jpeg

Untitled.pngAliun%2BWaliullah%2Bin%2BAdhan%2Band%2BIqamah%2Bis%2Binnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.97%2529.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.103%25291.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.104%25292.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.106%2529.png

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7 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

e is a Marja and an “Ayatollah” in your madhhab

you mistaken him with "Ayatollah " Bashir Najafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashir_al-Najafi  like you said that chicken is haram in our madhhab :blabla:

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6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

you mistaken him with "Ayatollah " Bashir Najafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashir_al-Najafi  like you said that chicken is haram in our madhhab :blabla:

Wrong, I didn’t confuse him with Bashir al-Najafi.

Muhammad Husain al-Najafi is considered a Marja and Ayatollah in the Twelver madhhab. You called him a “random guy from Pakistan”.

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16 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Muhammad Husain al-Najafi is considered a Marja and Ayatollah in the Twelver madhhab. You called him a “random guy from Pakistan”

i don't choose a Marja from Wikipedia :hahaha:

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7 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

non of them are my Marja , I follow Imam Khamenei 

https://www.leader.ir/ur

https://www.leader.ir/en

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

if you read their Rislas then you will see that all of them agree on that saying Aliun Waliullah in Tashahhud and in the Adhan is optional which is not compulsory in Adhan 

What they actually say is that reciting it in the tashahhud is not permitted and that it isn't part of the adhan. 

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The Shi’i scholar in Pakistan, Allamah Muhammad Husain al-Najafi, known as "Dhaku" says it is a bid'ah and therefore haram:

image.jpeg.e9eff570c42a7f9320cc35722e5bc294.jpeg

Untitled.pngAliun%2BWaliullah%2Bin%2BAdhan%2Band%2BIqamah%2Bis%2Binnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.97%2529.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.103%25291.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.104%25292.pngThird%2BShahadah%2Bin%2BTashahhud%2BInnovation%2B%2528Islah%2Bur%2BRusum%2Bp.106%2529.png

Again, the brother above mentioned "OPTIONAL" means if you don't consider it a part of Tashahud, some Marjas do permit it.

As for Dhako, he has said that about people who consider it a part of tashahud and wajib without which Namaz is void. This position is absolutely false and thats what has been addressed by Dhako.

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1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Again, the brother above mentioned "OPTIONAL" means if you don't consider it a part of Tashahud, some Marjas do permit it.

As for Dhako, he has said that about people who consider it a part of tashahud and wajib without which Namaz is void. This position is absolutely false and thats what has been addressed by Dhako.

image.png.4c16fbbca4f7b3eca364e87c4fcfeed5.png

It has been mentioned in the same book but you didn't highlight it.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Again, the brother above mentioned "OPTIONAL" means if you don't consider it a part of Tashahud, some Marjas do permit it.

As for Dhako, he has said that about people who consider it a part of tashahud and wajib without which Namaz is void. This position is absolutely false and thats what has been addressed by Dhako.

Dhaku is saying that the third shahadah in Adhan or Tashahhud has no proof from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم or your Ma’sumin. He has mentioned this in his book Islah ur-Rusum which is to rectify common innovations that people have added into Islam.

Now my question is, how can third shahadah be optional in specific acts of worship like Adhan and Tashahhud if it has no proof from Quran, Sunnah, or your Ma’sumin?

Do you agree that performing bid’at (innovations) is haram? Are there not Ahadith in your literature which state “every innovation is misguidance leading to Hell”?

Explain to me how reading third Shahadah “Aliun Waliullah” in the Adhan and Tashahhud is not an innovation and is not changing these legislated acts of worship?

Furthermore, if you believe they are optional despite being innovative, why do you not consider praying Tarawih optional? Why do you not consider folding hands in Qiyam optional? Why do you not consider many other acts of worship associated with Sunni Islam that you regard innovative to be optional?

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8 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

image.png.4c16fbbca4f7b3eca364e87c4fcfeed5.png

It has been mentioned in the same book but you didn't highlight it.

He is not only refuting those who say Salat is invalid without third shahadah in tashahhud, he is also refuting those who say it is optional, or may be read for the sake of blessing:

تبھی تو تبرکا وتیمنا کہنے کا سہارا لیتے ہیں

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9 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Dhaku is saying that the third shahadah in Adhan or Tashahhud has no proof from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم or your Ma’sumin. He has mentioned this in his book Islah ur-Rusum which is to rectify common innovations that people have added into Islam.

Well that's a 50-50. 

You know, there is a group among shias, who deny Ilm-ur-rijal. So for them, its easy to find anything like that, but for those who believe in it, there is a difference of opinion.

It indeed is true, that there is no proof from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) reciting it in Azaan/Iqamah or Tashahud of Namaz. But there are some general hadiths, that say ke its Mustahab to pronounce Ali un wali ullah after you pronounce la ilaha illalah Muhamamd ur rasool ullah. Some people use them to prove ali un wali ullah in Adhan/Iqamah and Namaz as Mustahab and they say the reason why imams didn't preach it was to save the lives of their companions "Taqqiyah" which has basis in hadith.

As for those who call it wajib, its Qias which is haram in Mazhab e Shia. 

There is even difference among Classical Scholors and Today's Scholors on this issue.

Classical Scholors claimed No Addition or subtraction is to be made in Adhan/Iqamah while according to them, two testimonies are part of tashahud and adding to it is sunnah or Ibadah

But todays scholors issued opposite fatwas. i:e Adhan/Iqamah isn't fixed , you can even drink water while pronouncing azaan (Got this reply from Bashir Najafi facebook page) but tashahud is part of namaz and you msut have a proof from imams (عليه السلام) in order to recite it in Namaz.

21 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Do you agree that performing bid’at (innovations) is haram? Are there not Ahadith in your literature which state “every innovation is misguidance leading to Hell”?

Agreed, Everyone agree to this.

22 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Now my question is, how can third shahadah be optional in specific acts of worship like Adhan and Tashahhud if it has no proof from Quran, Sunnah, or your Ma’sumin?

 

24 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Explain to me how reading third Shahadah “Aliun Waliullah” in the Adhan and Tashahhud is not an innovation and is not changing these legislated acts of worship?

The people who prefer to pronounce it, use general hadiths as I mentioned above.

People who deny Ilm-ur-Rijal use Azaan Iqamah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in Kabah mentioned in "Mashariq Al Anwaar Al Yaqeen"  and hadith of Al-Kafi (Amali of Sadooq) that when Allah created universe, he ordered a caller to call out 3 testimonies thrice. Testimony of tauheed, Risalah and Wilayah of Ali (عليه السلام). 

As for my position, i consider it a Biddah in Azaan/Iqamah and optional in Tashahud.

26 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

why do you not consider praying Tarawih optional?

I think shias have many optional prayers for nights of Ramazaan. They are against Jamaa'at of Tarawih. 

27 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Why do you not consider folding hands in Qiyam optional?

As per Reference of Dhako you gave, he mentioned a hadith that prohibits it. Thats why.

Plus i am not a molvi, i study selective topics. Idk much about taravih etc

 

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26 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

He is not only refuting those who say Salat is invalid without third shahadah in tashahhud, he is also refuting those who say it is optional, or may be read for the sake of blessing:

تبھی تو تبرکا وتیمنا کہنے کا سہارا لیتے ہیں

Its specifically for Azaan / iqamah not tashahud.

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3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Well that's a 50-50. 

You know, there is a group among shias, who deny Ilm-ur-rijal. So for them, its easy to find anything like that, but for those who believe in it, there is a difference of opinion.

Okay, well this is your internal dispute. My point was only to draw your attention to the fact that a contemporary Shi’ah Marja, Dhaku sahib, has declared reading third Shahadah in Adhan and Tashahhud to be an innovation.

This discussion arose because Ash claimed that we Sunnis are divided into four sects (Hanafi, Shafie, Maliki, Hanbali). I told him these are not sects but only schools of jurisprudence. He said if they are not sects why do they differ on the details of offering Salat like the place of folding the hands. I said the Shi’ah also have differences in Salat, and mentioned this difference regarding the reading of third Shahadah in Tashahhud. He said all the Marjas agree it is optional and not obligatory. I told him that Dhaku sahib considers it an innovation. He then proceeded to dismiss Dhaku sahib as “a random guy from Pakistan”, although Dhaku is a well known Ayatollah and Marja.

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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Okay, well this is your internal dispute. My point was only to draw your attention to the fact that a contemporary Shi’ah Marja, Dhaku sahib, has declared reading third Shahadah in Adhan and Tashahhud to be an innovation.

This discussion arose because Ash claimed that we Sunnis are divided into four sects (Hanafi, Shafie, Maliki, Hanbali). I told him these are not sects but only schools of jurisprudence. He said if they are not sects why do they differ on the details of offering Salat like the place of folding the hands. I said the Shi’ah also have differences in Salat, and mentioned this difference regarding the reading of third Shahadah in Tashahhud. He said all the Marjas agree it is optional and not obligatory. I told him that Dhaku sahib considers it an innovation. He then proceeded to dismiss Dhaku sahib as “a random guy from Pakistan”, although Dhaku is a well known Ayatollah and Marja.

Still there is a difference. Fatwa of a scholors isn't a hujjah without evidence. Qias is haram in Mazhab e Shia and if someone dost that, he is going against Usool of shias.

Your mathab has many rulings based on fatwa and taweel of fallibles. Dis agreement among your Imams is not the same as dis agreement among our scholors.

As for optional, i believe no one deny that in tashahud. Imams (عليه السلام) added many testmonies in tashahud like Jannah is Haq, Hell is Haq, Allah will raise people from graves etc.

And based on general hadiths, one can say if he likes to it in tashahud.

Dhako etc objected to people who made it obligatory or spread it based on some hadiths which are known to have no basis.

"Talking about Tashahud only"

 

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:00 PM, Cherub786 said:

Do you agree that performing bid’at (innovations) is haram? Are there not Ahadith in your literature which state “every innovation is misguidance leading to Hell”?

Explain to me how reading third Shahadah “Aliun Waliullah” in the Adhan and Tashahhud is not an innovation and is not changing these legislated acts of worship?

Quote

According to the majority of Shiite fuqaha, this phrase is not part of adhan or iqama, but it is mustahab or permissible to recite it with the intention

 
Translation Adhan  

Allah is the Greatest

I bear witness there is no God but Allah

I bear witness Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah

I bear witness 'Ali is the wali of Allah

Hurry toward prayer

Hurry toward salvation

Hurry toward the best of deeds

Allah is the Greatest

There is no God but Allah

(4 times) اَللّهُ اَکبَرُ

(2 times) اَشْهَدُ اَنْ لا اِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللّهُ

(2 times) اَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ اللّهِ

[1]اَشْهَدُ أَنَّ عَلِیاً وَلِی اللّهِ

(2 times) حَیِّ عَلَی الصَّلاةِ

(2 times) حَیِّ عَلَی الْفَلاحِ

(2 times) حَیِّ عَلی خَیرِ الْعَمَلِ

(2 times) اَللّهُ اَکبَرُ

(2 times) لا اِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللّهُ

of proximity to God in a way that it is known that the phrase is not part of adhan or iqama.

It is said that 'Abd Allah al-Maraghi al-Misri has cited hadiths in his book, al-Silafa fi amr al-khilafa, according to which Salman and Abu Dhar recited the Third Testimony in the period of the Prophet (s).[8] However, some people have doubted the existence of such a book.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Third_Testimony

Among Shi'is, it has become common to say "'Ali is the wali of Allah" during the adhan. There are some narrations indicating that this was said in the presence of the Prophet, for instance, that on the Day of Ghadir Salman al-Farsi recited it during the adhan, and the Prophet approved of it. 

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/topics/8198/questions-about-Shahada

 

Salam again :censored:

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Quote

Question:

Was the sentence “I testify that Ali (عليه السلام) is God’s friend” a part of Adhan from the beginning or it was added later?

Answer:

We have a number of revayats in this regard. In the book Al Silafa Fi Amr Al Khilafa by Maraqi Misri, we read:

A man went to the Holy Prophet and said “Abuzar added ‘I testify that Ali (عليه السلام) is God’s friend’ in his Adhan”. The Holy Prophet replied “That is true. Have you forgotten what I said on the day of Qadir which I said ‘Whoever I am his master, so now Ali is his master’”.[28]

Also on the next page, it is written:

A man went to the Holy Prophet and said “I heard something that I haven’t heard it before”. The Holy Prophet said “What was it that you heard?” That man said “I heard Salman testified to Welayat of Ali (عليه السلام) after testifying of Risalat”. The Holy Prophet replied “You heard a really good thing”[29].    

[29] Al Silafa fi Amr Al khilafa by Maraqi Al Misri, p 33

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=119

في بعض كتب أصحابنا، عن كتاب ]السلافة في أمر الخلافة[، للشيخ عبد اللّه المراغي المصري: إنّ سلمان الفارسي ذكر في الأذان والإقامة الشهادة بالولاية لعلي بعد الشهادة بالرسالة في زمن النبي صلّى اللّه عليه وآله وسلم، فدخل رجل على رسول اللّه فقال: يا رسول اللّه، سمعت أمراً لم أسمع به قبل هذا، فقال رسول اللّه: «ما هو؟» قال: سلمان شهد في أذانه بعد الشهادة بالرسالة بالشهادة بالولاية لعلي، فقال: «سمعتم خيراً».
وعن كتاب السلافة أيضاً: إنّ رجلاً دخل على رسول اللّه فقال: يا رسول اللّه، إنّ أبا ذر يذكر في الأذان بعد الشهادة بالرسالة الشهادة بالولاية لعلي ويقول: أشهد أنّ عليّاً ولي اللّه، فقال: «كذلك، أوَ نسيتم قولي يوم غدير خم: من كنت مولاه فعليّ مولاه؟ فمن نكث فإنّما ينكث على نفسه!!».
هذان خبران عن هذا الكتاب.
إن تسألوني عن رأيي في هذا الكتاب، وفي هذين الخبرين، فإنّي لا يمكنني الجزم بصحّة هذين الخبرين، لأنّي بعدُ لم أعرف هذا الكتاب، ولم أطلّع على سند هذين الخبرين، ولم أعرف بعدُ مؤلّف هذا الكتاب، إلاّ أنّي مع ذلك لا يجوز لي أن أُكذّب، لا أُفتي على طبق هذين الخبرين، ولكنّي أيضاً لا أُكذّب بهما.

وفي كتاب [الإحتجاج]، في إحتجاجات أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام على المهاجرين والأنصار، هذه الرواية يستشهد بها علماؤنا بل يستدلّون بها في كتبهم الفقهيّة، أقرأ لكم نصّ الرواية:

http://al-milani.com/library/lib-pg.php?booid=31&mid=379&pgid=4420

http://ijtihadnet.com/al-shahada-al-thalitha-in-shia-jurisprudence/

So @Cherub786 you stand reject action of  Sahabas like Salman (رضي الله عنه) & Abudhar (رضي الله عنه) just based on ijtihad of Dhako 

 

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:00 PM, Cherub786 said:

why do you not consider praying Tarawih optional? Why do you not consider folding hands in Qiyam optional? Why do you not consider many other acts of worship associated with Sunni Islam that you regard innovative to be optional?

 ‘Aa’ishah may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  her said: “The Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) used to leave off doing a good deed although he liked to perform it, fearing that people would perform it, and then it would become obligatory on them. He (the Prophet) never performed Ath-Thuha prayer (according to her knowledge) but I did.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

So, the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) gave up performing the Taraweeh prayer at the Mosque after having performed it some nights.  ‘Aa’ishah may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  her narrated that the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) performed the Taraweeh prayer one night and many people prayed behind him. Then, he sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) performed it the next night and the people came in larger numbers, then they gathered the third or fourth night (for Taraweeh) but the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) did not come out to them. And in the morning he said: "I saw what you did (your gathering for the prayer) and nothing prevented me from coming out except my fear that performing Taraweeh would become obligatory on you”; and this was in the month of Ramadan." [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

Here, it is useful to state that Abu Bakr may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  him   did not do such a deed, even though he knew that there is no legislation that would be made obligatory after the death of the Prophet sallallaahu  `alayhi  wa  sallam ( may  Allaah exalt his mention ) 

saying of ‘Umar may  Allaah  be  pleased  with  him on Taraweeh prayer: “How good an innovation it is!” 

https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/85638/taraweeh-prayer-bidah-or-not

 

(II) Shiite traditions

1. Shaikh Toosi ((رضي الله عنه).) by his chain of narration has related through Masadah b. Sadaqah from Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).): The method of Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) in the blessed Ramazan month was that he would increase his recommended prayers progressively from the beginning of the month to the twentieth day to twenty additional units. Eight units after Maghrib and twelve units after Eshaa. And he recited thirty units in the last ten days. Twelve after Maghrib and eighteen after Eshaa. In addition to this, he read the tahajjud prayer and supplications a great deal. He prayed a hundred units in both the twenty-first and twenty-third nights and was awake throughout the nights.[13]

Quote

Hanafi Fiqh

We read in Durr al-Mukhtar, Volume 2 page 46:

(التراويح سنة) مؤكدة لمواظبة الخلفاء الراشدين (للرجال والنساء) إجماعا

“Tarawih unanimously is Sunnat Muakida as the guided caliphs were persevered in offering it with men and women”

We read in Durr al-Mukhtar, Volume 2 page 47:

(والجماعة فيها سنة على الكفاية) في الاصح، فلو تركها أهل مسجد أثموا

“To offer it in congregation is Sunnat Kiffaya according to the most correct opinion, if all the people of a mosque abandoned it, then all of them would be sinners”.

Note:The Sahaba didn’t offer Tarawih prayers during the lifetime of our Prophet (s) or during the reign of Abu Bakr, were all of these individuals, including the Prophet (s) and Abu Bakr, sinners as the Fatwa suggests?

We also read in Fatawa Alamgiri, Volume 1 page 116:

وَلَوْ صَلَّى التَّرَاوِيحَ ثُمَّ أَرَادُوا أَنْ يُصَلُّوا ثَانِيًا فُرَادَى

“If they offered Tarawih and then they want to offer it a second time then they should do it individually (not in a congregation)”.

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/tarawih-a-parody-of-prayers/the-lies-innovations-conjectures-behind-tarawih.html

2. Ibne Qaddamah says: Tarawih has been related to Umar since he ordered its performance in congregation to Ubayy b. Kaab and he did accordingly.[42]

3. Al-Aini opines: Umar called it an innovation because the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) has not called it Sunnat. It was also not acted upon in the caliphate of Abu Bakr. He continues: There are two types of innovation. If it is according to the action liked by Islamic law, then it is good innovation. If it is disliked by religious law, then it is a disliked innovation.[43] We will shortly conclude that we find only one kind of innovation and it is nothing except sin and prohibition.

4. Qalqashqandi adds: Among the original actions of Umar is the establishment of Tarawih with a congregational leader for the first time in the Ramazan month. This was done in the 14th Hijri.[44]

Al-Baasi, Suyuti, Sakhtewari and others have also written: The first person to establish the sunnat of Tarawih was Umar b. Khattab. They have also clarified that the order of performing recommended prayers of Ramazan month was an innovation from the innovations of Umar.[45]

https://www.world-federation.org/news/tarawih-sunnah-or-bidah

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:00 PM, Cherub786 said:

folding hands in Qiyam optional?

Quote

Abi Hamid Sae'di has described the prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) prayer in a hadith in full detail, from the beginning of the tahbiratul-ihram till the end of the salam, yet hasn't mentioned anything about him closing his hands, and instead says that after saying the takbiratul-ihram, he brought his hands down by his sides[4].

At the same time, one can't say that closing the hands isn't obligatory in the prayer and is only mustahahb, and that is why the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) wouldn't close them, because it is impossible for him not to perform this "mustahabb" act all his life.

In yet another hadith, Hammad ibn Isa asks Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) to portray the full and correct prayer for him. The imam (عليه السلام) stood towards the Qiblah, observing all of the mustahabb acts, said the takbiratul-ihram and began reciting and went on to finish the prayer the way the Shia currently pray, ending it with the salam[5]. In this hadith, the imam (عليه السلام) was showing Hammad how the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) would pray, yet there is no sign of the closing of the hands, and if this act was to truly be a tradition of the prophet, he would have surely included it in his description of the prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) prayer.

There are also multiple hadiths by the imams that say this act resembles that of the Maji and the kafirs and one shouldn't practice it; here we will list a few:

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1813

Did Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fight all innovations when he was in power?

One of the innovations (bid'ah) promoted during the time of the second caliph and which was initiated by him was 'folding hands during prayers'.[1] As well, the sentence "al-Salat khayrun min an-Nawm" (prayer is better than sleep) was added to the Fajr Adhan and the declaration "Hayya 'alaa khairil 'amal" was removed from it.

Imam Ali's sermon about the innovations and why he did not take action to change them. The narration is interesting to read:
"The caliphs before me deliberately opposed the Messenger of Allah doing things that led to alteration of his tradition (sunnah). Should I embark on stopping people from what they have innovated and make them adopt the tradition of the Prophet (S), no army will remain for me, except myself and a few of followers…".

Did you see that when I stopped them from performing Taraweeh (mustahab prayers which Sunnis perform in jama'at), some of those who fought alongside me in my army shouted, "O Muslims, Umar's tradition is gone" and the army was going to fall apart and follow the leaders of misguidance.[4]
This is Imam Ali's grievance and complaint which somehow give us an illustration into the Muslim society of his time as well as of Muslims who knew nothing about the difference between tradition and innovation

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa42030

Narrated ‘Aisha:
That she used to hate that one should keep his hands on his flanks while praying. She said that the Jew used to do so

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 664

005.064
YUSUFALI: “The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched

1) The Hanafis say that the males should place their right hand over the left and place them below the navel and the females should put their hands on the chest.

2) The Hanbalis are of the view that both the males and the females should put their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them below the navel.

3) The Shafis say that both the males and the females should place their right palms on the back of their left hands and place them above the navel but below the chest, as it is the Sunnah.
Al-fiqa al-Mazahib al-Arba’a, page 399-400, compiled by Allama Abdul Rehman Al-Jazeeri, published by Ulema Academy, Department of Auqaaf, Punjab

4) The early three Sunni Imams were born far away from Madina, but Imam Malik bin Anas was born there, he grew up he saw the elders, the literary people and the scholars of Madina offering prayers with unfolded hands, and therefore he ordered that the prayers be offered likewise. Allama Ghulam Rasool Sa’eedi writes about him in Sharh Muslim.

We read in Wasael al-Shia, volume 7 page 267:
 
محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن علي عليه السلام -في حديث الأربعمائة- قال : لا يجمع المسلم يديه في صلاته وهو قائم بين يدي الله عز وجل
Imam Ali said: ‘The Muslim shall not fold his hands while he is standing in front of God during his prayer’ 

Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Shawkani in Nayl al-Awtar, volume 2 page 67 also admits that the Ahl’ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet (s) offered prayers with unfolded hands.

Prophet (s) didn’t teach the folding of Hands during prayers

Imam Shawkani records the following statement of Ibn Manzar who was one of the teachers of Imam Bukhari:

قال ابن المنذر في بعض تصانيفه‏:‏ لم يثبت عن النبي صلى اللَّه عليه وآله وسلم في ذلك شيء فهو مخير‏

“There is no such proven tradition from Holy Prophet (s) in regard to folding of hands, therefore it is up to the worshipper [whether he offers the prayers with either folded or unfolded hands]”.
1. Nayl al Awtar, Volume 2, page 203
2. Aun al-Ma’bood, Sharh Sunan Abi Daud, volume 2, page 322, published by Dar ul-Kutb e Ilmia, Beirut.

Prophet (s) tought Sahaba to offer prayers without folded hands
Imam Ahmed reocrds:

حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا الأعمش عن مسيب بن رافع عن تميم بن طرفة عن جابر بن سمرة قال : خرج علينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ذات يوم فقال ما لي أراكم رافعي أيديكم كأنها أذناب خيل شمس أسكنوا في الصلاة
Jabi bin Samara said: ‘Once Allah’s messenger (s came to us one day ‘Why you fold your hands as the tails of horses, you have to settle in prayer’’.
Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 5 page 93 Hadith 20905

Shaykh Shoib Al-Aranut stated about this Hadith:

‘The chain is Sahih according to Muslim’s standard’

Imam Showkani records in Nail al-Awtar, Volume 2 page 200:

واحتج القائلون ) بالإرسال بحديث جابر بن سمرة المتقدم بلفظ : (ما لي أراكم رافعي أيديكم)
Those who deem unfolding relied on the tradition of Jabir bin Samara (why do you fold your hands).

A Salafi scholar’s admission that praying with unfolded hands is valid

Ahmad al-Duwaish who is a Salafi scholar of Saudi Arabia records in his book Fatawa al-Lajna al-Daema, Volume 6 page 366:

فإذا صلى شخص وهو مرسل يديه فصلاته صحيحة؛ لأن وضع اليمنى علي اليسرى ليس من أركان الصلاة ولا من شروطها ولا من واجباتها

‘If some one prayed with unfolded hands, his prayer is valid, because putting the right hand on the left is neither part of prayer’s pillars nor is a condition of prayer, nor its wajib.’

Fatah al Qadeer:

يُسَنُّ الْإِرْسَالُ فِي الْجِنَازَةِ وَتَكْبِيرَاتِ الْعِيدِ وَالْقَوْمَةِ فَيَكُونُ الْقِيَامُ مُطْلَقًا .
وَعَنْ قَوْلِ أَصْحَابِ الْفَضْلِيِّ أَبِي عَلِيٍّ النَّسَفِيِّ وَالْحَاكِمِ وَعَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ : السُّنَّةُ فِي هَذِهِ الْمَوَاضِعِ الِاعْتِمَادُ مُخَالَفَةً لِلرَّوَافِضِ ، فَإِنَّهُمْ يُرْسِلُونَ

The Sunnah in Funeral prayers and Eid is to unfold and stand, the companions of Fadheli Abu Ali al-Nasafi and al-Hakim and Abdulrahman said: ‘The sunnah in such cases is to oppose the Rawafidh [Shi'a] as they pray with their arms open’.

Kifaya:
“The opening of the arms in Salat is in the Madhab of the Rafidi, we fold our arms and the reason is to oppose the Shi’a”

Tanveer al Aynain:
“Imam Malik gave an order to read Salat with open arms, and the Sunni Ulema here (i.e. the Indian Subcontinent) sau that praying with open hands in the cities means imitating the Shi’a. The Hanafee Ulema have rejected opening the arms in salat, opening the arms is a Shi’a practice, and nothing else will remain, and the Prophet (s) said ‘protect yourself from acusation”

 Sahabi Malik bin Anas in Sahih al Bukhari Volume 1 hadith number 507:

“Anas said, “I do not find (now-a-days) things as they were (practiced) at the time of the Prophet.” Somebody said “The prayer (is as it was.)” Anas said, “Have you not done in the prayer what you have done?”

Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him the reason for it. He replied, “I do not know anything which I used to know during the lifetime of Allah’s Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)”.

Of relevance is the fact that we read in Sahih Bukhari, Virtues of the Prayer Hall Volume 1, Book 12, Number 751:

Narrated Imran bin Husain:
I offered the prayer with ‘Ali in Basra and he made us remember the prayer which we used to pray with Allah’s Apostle. ‘Ali said Takbir on each rising and bowing.

Tanveer al Aynain:
“Ibn Sireen was asked a man why e placed his right hand over the left hand in Salat, he said this was practice of the Romans”

 

Contradicting Fatawas amongst the Sunni Ulema on folding the arms

Fatah ul Bari:

The Ulema have said that there is wisdom behing the Sunni method of Salat, since the act of folding the hands is the act of a pathetic beggar, and positioning hands in this way prohibits bad acts and this is a purer method.

Kifaya:

“Long recitals amongst the Muslims, meant people stood for lengthy periods. And blood would rush down to the finger nails, that’s why via wisdom of the State the order was given to fold the arms”

http://www.shiapen.com/fiqh/shia-method-of-prayers-salat/open-hands.html

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