Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
ShiaChat.com
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

The Downside of Dualism; Humility or Self-Humiliation?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

After reading some of the works of Mullah Sadra and his likes, I have come to conclude that Wahdatul Wujood is the reality. The separation of God and non-God (a duality) is not real but metaphorical. There is no God outside this existence. If there is then prove it. You can't because such an external existant who watches and judges humanity is not real but metaphorical. If there really was an external God outside this existence (non-God) surely He would make Himself known to us with objective verifiable evidence. The only leg that tradition dualistic world-views like tradition Islam offer is faith. Just believe, have faith, based on fear and threats.
Wahdatul Wujood world-view offers you certainty not faith. You accept what is verifiable and seen, not unseen. With Wahdatul Wujood there is no need at all to accept anything is true without objective verifiable evidence.

This is why Mullah Sadra and his likes called Wahdatul Wujood the real Islam and Monotheism because in it there is no duality. All is God and God is All. This is not because creation = nothing. Not at all. In reality there is no creation. All is Creator creating everything from Himself, not from anything else, so all is God. God is conscious energy. Physics explains that energy can not be created nor destroyed, but can transform from one state to another. That is exactly what God is. God is both Matter and Mind. Matter is just an energy shift from mind to matter. What existed always existed and will always exist. You think you are separate from God? No, you are God. God is everything and you are a piece of the jigsaw puzzle of existence. Without you existence would be incomplete. If existence saw no need for you to exist you would not exist. Stop denying the value of your existence and your greatness.

Many people think they are being humble but they are actually practicing self-humiliation, as if they don't remember the concept of 'Izzah in the Qur'an.

If you feel that you are great that does not make you arrogant. There are 3 levels.

To think you are less than you really are. That is self-humiliation.

To think you are what you really are without any exaggeration nor its opposite. That is humility.

To think you are more than you really are. That is arrogance.

Many dualists suffer from self-humiliation. They think that if they consider themselves worthless and low that that brings them closer to God. It doesn't! It takes you further away. What happens to these people is a demolition of their self-esteem, a necessary element of living a good and enjoyable balanced life. This approach leads to self-loathing.

The arrogant, narcissist, also suffers from a lack of self love.

Only the middle category will find what is real self love and come to love all of existence.

My point is that dualism is the cause of low self-esteem. Religious leaders typical destroy your self esteem. They do not encourage you to love yourself. If you don't love yourself you can't love anyone else either because you can not give what you don't have. People who have no self-esteem are easy to control. A person who loves himself is a free man.

After so long I feel I have escaped the prison of duality. Now I see existence in a different light. I invite you to escape the prison of duality as well and find freedom.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+sadra+pantheism 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/4/2020 at 3:47 PM, pantheistica said:

Many dualists suffer from self-humiliation. They think that if they consider themselves worthless and low that that brings them closer to God. It doesn't! It takes you further away. What happens to these people is a demolition of their self-esteem, a necessary element of living a good and enjoyable balanced life. This approach leads to self-loathing.

Interesting. Lately I have been feeling weird about what I say about myself in order to be humble, I have a hunch that some of the things I say may actually hurt my eman in the long run. It seems reasonable that as with all things, there is a right and wrong way to approach humility. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2020 at 12:47 PM, pantheistica said:

God is conscious energy. Physics explains that energy can not be created nor destroyed, but can transform from one state to another. That is exactly what God is.

Is this a parable to describe God, or do you literally believe God is cosmic energy?

Quote

Many dualists suffer from self-humiliation. They think that if they consider themselves worthless and low that that brings them closer to God. It doesn't! It takes you further away. What happens to these people is a demolition of their self-esteem, a necessary element of living a good and enjoyable balanced life. This approach leads to self-loathing.

I disagree, self-deprecation is the means to purify and negate the ego, and to transcend one’s own personality and be able to take on the persona of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم a concept we call Fana fil-Rasul

I don’t think someone can be “too humble”, the humbler the better.

Edited by Cherub786
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
3 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Interesting. Lately I have been feeling weird about what I say about myself in order to be humble, I have a hunch that some of the things I say may actually hurt my eman in the long run. It seems reasonable that as with all things, there is a right and wrong way to approach humility. 

As salaamun aleikum,

You make a good point, cuz if someone suffers from low self worth or bad opinion of himself, he probably doesnt care about himself much and thats very dangerous cuz if someone doesnt care about their self, then tbe fear of sinning and punishment doesnt seem to have much of an effect cuz they dont care about themself anyway so neither do they care about doing what they need to do to obtain a good afterlife.

Just a quick knee jerk response and not a very well thought out reply.

W/s

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

I disagree, self-deprecation is the means to purify and negate the ego, and to transcend one’s own personality and be able to take on the persona of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم a concept we call Fana fil-Rasul

I don’t think someone can be “too humble”, the humbler the better.

What do you think al 'Izzatu lillah wa lirasulihi wa lil Mumineen means? If what you say is true then we should say al 'Izzatu lilla wadhillatu lirasulihi wal mu'mineen.
Just look at the name of your Prophet. What does it mean? The praised one (not the humble unpraised one).
Does that sound self-deprecating to you? Look at the name 'Ali. Does that sound like a self-deprecating name?
Dhillah is not a virtue in Islam. It is a vice. 'Ali allegedly said Halaka man lam ya'rif qadrah. Has perished the one who does not know his worth.
It would have been much easier to say if you think you have worth you will perish

It is simple. If you think you have little worth, your are humiliating yourself and stripping yourself of all 'Izzah. If you think you are more than you really are you are arrogant. If you know and understand and accept your worth you have 'Izzah. 
Self-deprecation is undignified.

You might find this video interesting. He is a top psychiatrist and he says almost all mental health illnesses are caused by low self-esteem.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/6/2020 at 7:50 PM, pantheistica said:

What do you think al 'Izzatu lillah wa lirasulihi wa lil Mumineen means?

Having izzah (honor) does not negate humility, nor does having humility negate one’s izzah. They are not mutually exclusive. On the other hand, there are Ayat of the Quran and many Ahadith which rebuke arrogance and pride. But we are speaking of personal pride, having pride in one’s own person, and not having pride in one’s Religion, or one’s attribution to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. In the personal capacity, pride is a vice, as they say “pride came before the fall”. Pride is what caused the Devil’s destruction, not humility.

Quote

Just look at the name of your Prophet. What does it mean? The praised one (not the humble unpraised one).

Muhammad means he is praised by others, he does not praise himself, he is not arrogant. His humbleness is from his virtues and merits, which is one of the reasons he is praised and loved, by Allah and by the Believers. Our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was the model of humbleness, he was a paragon of virtue, and the polar opposite of arrogance and pride. I can give you so many examples. Just consider that when he entered Mecca on the day of conquest, that was the day of his ultimate victory. An ordinary conqueror would come in with pomp and ceremony, his head raised high. But our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered on his camel, his head lowered to such an extent that his beard was touching the hump of the camel.

Quote

Dhillah is not a virtue in Islam. 

I’m not speaking of dhillah but tawade تواضع

As the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ أَوْحَى إِلَىَّ أَنْ تَوَاضَعُوا

Verily, Allah revealed to me that you must be humble”

Quote

'Ali allegedly said Halaka man lam ya'rif qadrah. Has perished the one who does not know his worth.

Knowing your worth means knowing your level, it works both ways. An arrogant person who thinks he is all that doesn’t know his true worth. In the sight of Allah we are all insignificant, that is our true worth, realization of it should make us humble.

Quote

He is a top psychiatrist and he says almost all mental health illnesses are caused by low self-esteem.

It is a religious matter for us, how can we take advice from a someone that approaches the subject from a purely secular perspective, such as a psychiatrist. Modern day psychiatrists would diagnose every Prophet of God as having “mental health issues”, perhaps of the most severe kind, like schizophrenia and what not. But as Believers we reject their analysis because it is based on a materialist worldview and foundation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

If one is arrogant he should humble himself. If one has low-self esteem he should learn to love himself and raise himself. Islam is a middle path. To have no humility (arrogance) and also to have too much humility (low self esteem) are evils. Virtue is the center between these two extremes. Self annihilation and deprecation are innovations of the Sufis. They have no grounding in the Qur'an.

Many Sufis always talk about Jihad al Nafs etc. Most of them don't even know what they are talking about. The key of Jihad al Nafs is not to efface your self but to keep it clean of all inordinate desires. Desire itself is a blessing and it is the essence of life. Islam is not against desire. We are not buddhists here. Islam just doesn't want you to desire bad things. As for good things, seek and desire and be ambitious and motivated. Life is good.

واما من خاف مقام ربه ونهى النفس عن الهوى

And as for those who were in awe of standing before their Lord and restrained themselves from ˹evil˺ desires, Paradise will certainly be ˹their˺ home. 79:40

Ego/Identity (Nafs) has a very important function. You should not hate your Nafs. You should love your Nafs with intensity and befriend your Nafs and protect it from harm like a father protects his child from harm.
Most of Sufism has become institutions for self loathing. It is really tragic. Most of the are the furthest people from God because of their acosmism leanings. How can you value anything if you feel it doesn't exist?
Without an Ego you can not survive in this world. Ego is just a collection of identity cards, your definitions of what you are and what you are not, what you want and what you don't want. Without Ego you could not differentiate between I, he and she. Your brain would go to mush. You will become psychotic without ego. For God's sake do not try to demolish your ego. It has terrible consequences. Don't listen to those sufis. Most of them are not ok. Did not 'Isa say to God, You know what is in my Nafs and I do not know what is in your Nafs? If effacing the ego is a virtue then why does 'Isa still have a Nafs when he is talking to God? (5:116)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, pantheistica said:

The key of Jihad al Nafs is not to efface your self but to keep it clean of all inordinate desires. Desire itself is a blessing and it is the essence of life. Islam is not against desire. We are not buddhists here. Islam just doesn't want you to desire bad things. As for good things, seek and desire and be ambitious and motivated.

I agree with this. The idea of effacing your human desires and becoming an emotionless “Vulcan” is totally alien to Islam and to human nature. I have nothing but contempt for Buddhism which even teaches that people should rid themselves of romantic feelings, and have zero attachment in order to avoid suffering. The risk of getting hurt and suffering makes Buddhists want to have no feelings of love or any emotion whatsoever, which is an extremely shallow and stupid thinking.

But this is not what Islam teaches. Islam teaches humility and humbleness, that doesn’t entail effacing one’s emotions and healthy, natural desires.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/7/2020 at 3:48 AM, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

You make a good point, cuz if someone suffers from low self worth or bad opinion of himself, he probably doesnt care about himself much and thats very dangerous cuz if someone doesnt care about their self, then tbe fear of sinning and punishment doesnt seem to have much of an effect cuz they dont care about themself anyway so neither do they care about doing what they need to do to obtain a good afterlife.

Just a quick knee jerk response and not a very well thought out reply.

W/s

@shia farm girl

Do you care to explain this better? They way you said it sounds rather judgmental. Are you assuming everyone with low self-worth is a good-for-nothing?

Again, maybe I’m misunderstanding you. This is the Internet, after all. But a clarification could be useful. Why assume a one-size-fits-all criterion?

Edited by Northwest
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/10/2020 at 10:41 AM, Northwest said:

@shia farm girl

Do you care to explain this better? They way you said it sounds rather judgmental. Are you assuming everyone with low self-worth is a good-for-nothing?

Again, maybe I’m misunderstanding you. This is the Internet, after all. But a clarification could be useful. Why assume a one-size-fits-all criterion?

Salaam @Northwest

No,  someone with low self esteem is definetly not "good for nothing", in fact, theyre just as good as anyone of us, but they have an issue with their personal outlook that needs to be addressed. If they dont address it, its possible for some that because they dont feel or see themselves in a good way, that they may be so self loathing that they wont have the motivation in this life to work for the best outcome for themselves in the akhira. Sinning, overlooking the mustahabat, etc could become not so important because they dont see themselves as worth the effort because their low opinion/view of themself so they may not strive very hard in that way.

Again, this is not everyone, and maybe not the majority, but definetly some. I used to be one, and there are others as well..alhamdulilah Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) somehow removed that confusion and falsehood from me. 

Thanks for asking for clarification of my statement. I think  my use of the word "probably" in that part you boldened is the problem. I shouldve used the word "may" instead. Please forgive me.

W/s

 

 

Edited by shia farm girl
Forgot to tag
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...
  • Advanced Member
On 9/6/2020 at 6:20 PM, guest 2025 said:

Interesting. Lately I have been feeling weird about what I say about myself in order to be humble, I have a hunch that some of the things I say may actually hurt my eman in the long run. It seems reasonable that as with all things, there is a right and wrong way to approach humility. 

Yes.  It is called false humility.  Humility is not a free floating virtue.  Humility is always humility in the face of Truth.   So, for example, if you know that 2+2=4 and because in trying to be humble you agree with someone else when he says that 2+2=5, this is not humility but false humility.  Humility should not prevent one from being courageous for the sake of the Truth. Humility is not cowardice.  For example:  “I am the greatest sinner ever”, “I am the most ignorant of you all” statements... are either signs of mental problems (assuming It truly believed), or false humility.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/5/2020 at 7:47 AM, pantheistica said:

My point is that dualism is the cause of low self-esteem. Religious leaders typical destroy your self esteem. They do not encourage you to love yourself. If you don't love yourself you can't love anyone else either because you can not give what you don't have. People who have no self-esteem are easy to control. A person who loves himself is a free man.

Dualism is basically the embodiment of gaslighting oneself. 

Creation is matter of fact subject to opposites (as the Qur'an clearly states, and in spiritual ways) however that is creation and not God, and not the greater reality beyond the Veil (al-Hijab).

It should be mentioned though that knowledge (ilm and marifa) is not ignorance (jahl), and the defeat of dualism is not the appraisal of ignorance or of darkness. It is dispelling their illusions and delusions and freeing oneself from them.

Edited by al-Muttaqin
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
2 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Dualism is basically the embodiment of gaslighting oneself. 

Yeah . . . kind of.

When l read the OP a moment ago, it struck be - a`la Dietzgen - as a "dialectical devilment".

Like kind of mental wandering Qur'an warns us about. Ayat 26:224

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

One thing people fail to say about this topic probably cause their experience is limited but once a person reaches these stages u don’t just like die from the world, u get to this point then u go back to normal life ie Isa Musa Prophet Muhammad they did 40 days of leaving the people they attain their knowledge and then return back but now with new knowledge and perspective,it’s not an end to life it’s just a momentum thing u do and return back but with new knowledge 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/5/2020 at 12:17 AM, pantheistica said:

After reading some of the works of Mullah Sadra and his likes, I have come to conclude that Wahdatul Wujood is the reality. The separation of God and non-God (a duality) is not real but metaphorical. There is no God outside this existence. If there is then prove it. You can't because such an external existant who watches and judges humanity is not real but metaphorical. If there really was an external God outside this existence (non-God) surely He would make Himself known to us with objective verifiable evidence. The only leg that tradition dualistic world-views like tradition Islam offer is faith. Just believe, have faith, based on fear and threats.
Wahdatul Wujood world-view offers you certainty not faith. You accept what is verifiable and seen, not unseen. With Wahdatul Wujood there is no need at all to accept anything is true without objective verifiable evidence.

This is why Mullah Sadra and his likes called Wahdatul Wujood the real Islam and Monotheism because in it there is no duality. All is God and God is All. This is not because creation = nothing. Not at all. In reality there is no creation. All is Creator creating everything from Himself, not from anything else, so all is God. God is conscious energy. Physics explains that energy can not be created nor destroyed, but can transform from one state to another. That is exactly what God is. God is both Matter and Mind. Matter is just an energy shift from mind to matter. What existed always existed and will always exist. You think you are separate from God? No, you are God. God is everything and you are a piece of the jigsaw puzzle of existence. Without you existence would be incomplete. If existence saw no need for you to exist you would not exist. Stop denying the value of your existence and your greatness.

Many people think they are being humble but they are actually practicing self-humiliation, as if they don't remember the concept of 'Izzah in the Qur'an.

If you feel that you are great that does not make you arrogant. There are 3 levels.

To think you are less than you really are. That is self-humiliation.

To think you are what you really are without any exaggeration nor its opposite. That is humility.

To think you are more than you really are. That is arrogance.

Many dualists suffer from self-humiliation. They think that if they consider themselves worthless and low that that brings them closer to God. It doesn't! It takes you further away. What happens to these people is a demolition of their self-esteem, a necessary element of living a good and enjoyable balanced life. This approach leads to self-loathing.

The arrogant, narcissist, also suffers from a lack of self love.

Only the middle category will find what is real self love and come to love all of existence.

My point is that dualism is the cause of low self-esteem. Religious leaders typical destroy your self esteem. They do not encourage you to love yourself. If you don't love yourself you can't love anyone else either because you can not give what you don't have. People who have no self-esteem are easy to control. A person who loves himself is a free man.

After so long I feel I have escaped the prison of duality. Now I see existence in a different light. I invite you to escape the prison of duality as well and find freedom.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+sadra+pantheism 

can you guide me on where to find out more about this, apart from the google search.

Sheikh Farrokh started a lecture series related to this topic which really helped me... sadly he didn't continue.

please define "God" and purpose of existence, and why God deems to test us based on above... how hell amd punishment fit into this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 9/5/2020 at 5:47 AM, pantheistica said:

After reading some of the works of Mullah Sadra and his likes, I have come to conclude that Wahdatul Wujood is the reality. The separation of God and non-God (a duality) is not real but metaphorical. There is no God outside this existence. If there is then prove it. You can't because such an external existant who watches and judges humanity is not real but metaphorical. If there really was an external God outside this existence (non-God) surely He would make Himself known to us with objective verifiable evidence. The only leg that tradition dualistic world-views like tradition Islam offer is faith. Just believe, have faith, based on fear and threats.
Wahdatul Wujood world-view offers you certainty not faith. You accept what is verifiable and seen, not unseen. With Wahdatul Wujood there is no need at all to accept anything is true without objective verifiable evidence.

This is why Mullah Sadra and his likes called Wahdatul Wujood the real Islam and Monotheism because in it there is no duality. All is God and God is All. This is not because creation = nothing. Not at all. In reality there is no creation. All is Creator creating everything from Himself, not from anything else, so all is God. God is conscious energy. Physics explains that energy can not be created nor destroyed, but can transform from one state to another. That is exactly what God is. God is both Matter and Mind. Matter is just an energy shift from mind to matter. What existed always existed and will always exist. You think you are separate from God? No, you are God. God is everything and you are a piece of the jigsaw puzzle of existence. Without you existence would be incomplete. If existence saw no need for you to exist you would not exist. Stop denying the value of your existence and your greatness.

Many people think they are being humble but they are actually practicing self-humiliation, as if they don't remember the concept of 'Izzah in the Qur'an.

If you feel that you are great that does not make you arrogant. There are 3 levels.

To think you are less than you really are. That is self-humiliation.

To think you are what you really are without any exaggeration nor its opposite. That is humility.

To think you are more than you really are. That is arrogance.

Many dualists suffer from self-humiliation. They think that if they consider themselves worthless and low that that brings them closer to God. It doesn't! It takes you further away. What happens to these people is a demolition of their self-esteem, a necessary element of living a good and enjoyable balanced life. This approach leads to self-loathing.

The arrogant, narcissist, also suffers from a lack of self love.

Only the middle category will find what is real self love and come to love all of existence.

My point is that dualism is the cause of low self-esteem. Religious leaders typical destroy your self esteem. They do not encourage you to love yourself. If you don't love yourself you can't love anyone else either because you can not give what you don't have. People who have no self-esteem are easy to control. A person who loves himself is a free man.

After so long I feel I have escaped the prison of duality. Now I see existence in a different light. I invite you to escape the prison of duality as well and find freedom.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+sadra+pantheism 

This idea that we are God and God is us is incorrect, God implies an idea that describes control power infinite etc but we don’t have such power control etc so we aren’t God for we have no control and we are under His control , God implies control power knowledge etc we came into existence and will go out of existence so again our limitations seperate us from God , the idea of space is just an idea and it’s true nature we don’t know , yes God created us from his infinite but the idea of us came later on , doesn’t matter that whatever we were made from always existed with God our nature our consciousness came later on and will cease to exist then resurrect and become something else for whatever period follows that 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...