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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophet ص Was Elected Through Consultation

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

@ShiaMan14 recommended I start a new thread

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Ohh, this is exciting. Can you please start a thread on this article un-debunkable arguement.

Also, what do you mean by inspired? Jibrael came you?

Like @Mahdavist pointed out, the discussion on the succession thread I started is simply going in circles, and nothing fruitful can come out of it further.

It is descending into debates over minor even petty points while overlooking the big picture. Therefore, I want to start such a discussion which will cut to the chase and get to the heart of the matter.

Therefore, this thread is dedicated solely to the next topic, which is my argument that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم possessed two capacities or roles, the first his original office of Prophesy, and the second he acquired after the Second Pledge of Aqabah, the office of judge and arbitrator of Medina.

The succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was to his office of ruler, and not Prophet, since he is the last Prophet, and a successor to his Prophesy will necessarily be a Prophet too. Since the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not divinely appointed to the role of judge and ruler of Medina, it makes sense that his successor to that role would also not be divinely appointed:

From my blog:

The Angel Gabriel عليه السلام came to our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم while he was in a state of seclusion at the Cave of Hira, and came to him with the Word of Allah, the divine Revelation. He was informed that he is a Prophet of God and was subsequently instructed to announce his Prophesy to the people. For some thirteen years, in his native Mecca, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prophesied, but he did not possess any administrative authority. Nor did he tell the people that administrative authority over Mecca or anyone else was his divine right.

When some of the people of Yathrib came into contact with him, and were persuaded that he was a true Prophet, they confessed faith in him. As their numbers grew, they consulted among themselves and made up their minds to invite the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to join them in Yathrib (Medina). They desired that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم not only dwell among them so they could benefit from the company of a Prophet, but that the Prophet serve as an arbitrator and judge among them, to settle their internal disputes. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم graciously accepted their invitation, and consecrated it through the Second Pledge of Aqabah. Sayyidina Ka’b bin Malik رضى الله عنه who was present on that occasion narrates: We gathered in the ravine to wait for the Messenger of God. He came to us accompanied by his paternal uncle al-Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib, who at that time still adhered to the religion of his people, but wished to be present when his nephew was negotiating and to see that there was a firm agreement. When he had sat down, al-Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib was the first to speak, and said, "People of the Khazraj (the Arabs used to call the Ansar, the Khazraj and the Aws together, by the name of the Khazraj), you know what Muhammad's position is among us. We have protected him against those of our people who have the same religious views as ourselves. He is held in honor by his own people and is safe in his country. He is determined to leave them and to join you, so if you think that you can fulfill the promises which you made in inviting him to come to you and can defend him against his enemies, then assume the responsibilities which you have taken upon yourselves. But if you think that you will abandon him and hand him over after he has come to you, then leave him alone now, for he is honored by his people and is safe in his country." We said to him, "We have heard what you have said. Speak, Messenger of God, and choose what you want for yourself and your Lord." The Messenger of God spoke, recited the Qur'an, summoned us to God, and made us desirous of Islam. Then he said, "I will enter a contract of allegiance with you, provided that you protect me as you would your wives and children." (Tarikh at-Tabari):

Untitled.pngAnsar%2BInvited%2BProphet%2BAS%2Bto%2BCome%2Bto%2Bthem.%2B2nd%2BPledge%2Bof%2BAqabah%2B%2528Tarikh%2BTabari%2Bv.2%2Bp.362%2529.pngAnsar%2BInvited%2BProphet%2BAS%2Bto%2BCome%2Bto%2Bthem.%2B2nd%2BPledge%2Bof%2BAqabah%2B%2528History%2Bof%2BTabari%2Bv.6%2Bp.133%2529.png

 

Now my thesis is that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was not divinely appointed as leader, administrator, arbitrator or judge over Medina. He was invited by their people, the Aws and Khazraj, to fulfill that role, and he accepted, under divine guidance. The Believers of the Aws and Khazraj had consulted among themselves and subsequently extended this invitation to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. When he accepted, and sealed that acceptance on both sides through the Second Pledge of Aqabah, then emigrated to Medina and practically assumed the position of authority, it is my assertion that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم took on an additional role to his role and office of Prophesy. The function of judge or administrator is not a necessary part of Prophesy, it is something that is in addition to it. That is of course demonstrated in the example of the vast majority of the Prophets of Israel, who did not possess administrative authority or dominion. And in his capacity of judge or administrator of Medina, with that jurisdiction later expanded to include all Arabia, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم concluded treaties, appointed judges and governors to various towns and provinces, dispatched armies and appointed their commanders, received delegations and entered into negotiations with them, and so on and so forth. These were responsibilities associated not with his divine office of Prophesy, but with his position of temporal authority that he received not through divine right, but having been invited to take it by the people of Medina. So when Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم passed away, he vacated that position of temporal authority, and not his office of Prophesy. That is because Islam fundamentally teaches that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the ‘Seal of Prophets’, after him the formal institution of Prophesy has concluded, and there cannot be any prophet after him. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم could not be succeeded in his capacity of Prophet, for the successor of that role would necessarily be a prophet himself, which is impossible. The community of Believers he founded understood this fact. But they also understood that the Prophet had a secondary role of administrator and possessed temporal authority which could be succeeded to. Since the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself was not divinely appointed to that role, it was obvious that any successor to that role would not be divinely appointed either. Rather, just as the Prophet was invited to take on the responsibility of administration and temporal authority after consultation among the Believers of Yathrib, likewise, their elders and the senior companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ought to consult among themselves and elect a suitable successor to that role of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. This they did, and consequently sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, the Prophet’s right-hand man and most senior companion, was elected his first Successor or Khalifah (caliph). He assumed only those responsibilities and functions that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم wielded which were not connected to his office of Prophesy.

This argument was inspired to me, and I am fairly positive it has never truly been put forward by any Sunni Muslim to refute the falsehood of Shi’ism prior to this.

 

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم @ShiaMan14 recommended I start a new thread Like @Mahdavist pointed out, the discussion on the succession thread I started is simply going in circles, and nothing fr

Cherry - you need to read more sunni literature than shia literature. Yes, you are rejecting the Tabari narration about Hudaibiya but the same narration exists in Sahih Bukhari as well. I am sure you

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124} [Shakir 2:1

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Salaam Cherry,

Thank you for starting this thread.

If i am reading and understanding this correctly, your entire inspiration is that since the Medinites made the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) their "caliph", it is not a divine post and as such the Saqifahites were okay to select Caliph Abu Bakr.

Do I understand the inspiration correctly?

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4 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam Cherry,

Thank you for starting this thread.

If i am reading and understanding this correctly, your entire inspiration is that since the Medinites made the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) their "caliph", it is not a divine post and as such the Saqifahites were okay to select Caliph Abu Bakr.

Do I understand the inspiration correctly?

Wa salaam

Yes, you have understood the gist. The Aws and Khazraj invited the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to come to Medina and assume the office of judge and ruler, for they were in desperate need of someone to unite them and resolve their internal disputes. So this office was 1. not divinely appointed and 2. assumed after a process of consultation among the Ansar

Now I have set the framework for this debate (if your side intends to debate this). It was important to set this conceptual framework, because the previous discussions on my original thread on succession were not bearing any fruit, as your side were making isolated objections and arguments that could not be effectively answered without first explaining the big picture, the conceptual framework, and the proper historical context

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:bismillah:

فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىَ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيمًا

4:65

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34 minutes ago, Cool said:

:bismillah:

فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىَ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيمًا

4:65

I was hoping you would elaborate in your own words.

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4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

This argument was inspired to me, and I am fairly positive it has never truly been put forward by any Sunni Muslim to refute the falsehood of Shi’ism prior to this.

lets breakdown my understanding section by section then.

Can you please confirm who inspired you and how? And when?

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

lets breakdown my understanding section by section then.

Can you please confirm who inspired you and how? And when?

This was the last sentence of my argument and it's the first thing you want to break down? Why are you avoiding the meat and potatoes?

Inspiration, as in Ilham. It was an Ilqa to my heart and mind, a sudden realization of the truth after I was praying and reflecting for guidance on the matter a few weeks ago. It came from God

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@Cherub786

In term of logic and humanity  yes people have the freedom to select their administrative leaders.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) affirmed that freedom.

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion;

Every single human will have the freedom to believe in Tawhid of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),  Prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imamat of Ali (عليه السلام), and make them leaders in religion and their daily affairs.

And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave us hujjah so that we don't blame Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophets and Imams in hereafter.

Because in the final moment, in the hereafter when all humans are put on the plain field of mahsyar, the only question that will be asked will be "who do you follow that will lead you to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).".  Who are you wali?

 

♡2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Taghut and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Taghut who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

25 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

 

Inspiration, as in Ilham. It was an Ilqa to my heart and mind, a sudden realization of the truth after I was praying and reflecting for guidance on the matter a few weeks ago. It came from God

My conclusion, we have freedom.  But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants us to choose the right path through his chosen Prophets, Imams as Walis or Ulil Amr.

The Wali that will bring us from darkness into the Light.

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5 minutes ago, layman said:

@Cherub786

In term of logic and humanity  yes people have the freedom to select their administrative leaders.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) affirmed that freedom.

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion;

I think you're missing the point. I am arguing that the political administration of the Muslims is not, strictly speaking, Religion. Therefore, even the verse you quoted "there is no compulsion in Religion" is regarding those affairs which are strictly in the realm of Religion.

This is the ideological difference between mainstream Sunni Islam and the schismatic Shi'ah. Your side has made the error of considering the political administration of the Muslims a matter of Religion, as though it is a purely religious institution like Salat or the other Pillars of Islam, etc.

As I explained in my argument, the institution of administrative and executive authority is distinct from the Prophet Muhammad's صلى الله عليه وسلم office of Prophesy. But your side has made the mistake of failing to make a distinction between these two separate roles, and combines them into a single role.

That is why we charge your side with violating aspects of the Prophet's finality (Khatm an-Nubuwwah) by transferring those aspects of his office which are exclusively prophetic and therefore terminated in his person to the Twelve Imams.

 

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

This was the last sentence of my argument and it's the first thing you want to break down? Why are you avoiding the meat and potatoes?

Inspiration, as in Ilham. It was an Ilqa to my heart and mind, a sudden realization of the truth after I was praying and reflecting for guidance on the matter a few weeks ago. It came from God

Sorry, the post was rather long so I am working it bottom-up. I want to understand the inspiration piece because you deemed it worthy to include in the post.

I got it - you were inspired by Allah with ilham - I am not going to assume you are implying you are a prophet. Glad we got that squared away.

BTW, do you spend a lot of time in caves?

7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

This they did, and consequently sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, the Prophet’s right-hand man and most senior companion, was elected his first Successor or Khalifah (caliph). He assumed only those responsibilities and functions that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم wielded which were not connected to his office of Prophesy.

Still working bottom up:

So criteria to select Caliph was Be Prophet's right hand man AND most senior companion? 

Please explain what you mean by "right hand man". Surely you don't mean "what your right hand possess" (مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ). Caliph Abu Bakr was not the Prophet's slave.

Please define "senior most". Age? Tenure?

Was there any other criteria?

Edited by ShiaMan14
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32 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Sorry, the post was rather long so I am working it bottom-up. I want to understand the inspiration piece because you deemed it worthy to include in the post.

I got it - you were inspired by Allah with ilham - I am not going to assume you are implying you are a prophet. Glad we got that squared away.

BTW, do you spend a lot of time in caves?

If I was claiming to be a Prophet (God forbid), it would invalidate my entire argument, which is that since Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is the last prophet in the formal sense, his succession necessitates it is a succession to his secondary role separate from his role of Prophet. The Finality of Prophesy is the foundation of my argument.

I haven't spent considerable time in a cave, but I do enjoy seclusion in certain peaceful, isolated areas and practice muraqabah.

Quote

Still working bottom up:

So criteria to select Caliph was Be Prophet's right hand man AND most senior companion? 

That's why you need to analyze from top to bottom, because you would never make these mistaken assumptions otherwise, like you assumed I might be claiming prophesy for myself (God forbid), so if you read my thesis from the beginning you won't make such false assumptions.

Therefore, I never said this is the necessary criteria to select a Caliph, nor can such an idea be derived from my thesis. The rest of your questions are therefore moot

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

That's why you need to analyze from top to bottom, because you would never make these mistaken assumptions otherwise, like you assumed I might be claiming prophesy for myself (God forbid), so if you read my thesis from the beginning you won't make such false assumptions.

Brother - I said I am not even going to assume that you are claiming to be Prophet. I appreciated you using the word ilham. I had to call this out because in another thread when someone claimed inspiration, you doubted their belief in the finality of Prophethood.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

I haven't spent considerable time in a cave, but I do enjoy seclusion in certain peaceful, isolated areas and practice muraqabah.

Very cool. I received ilham once too - it was an early Monday morning, I felt the words, "Think, think in the name of your Lord". Then I felt like my head was split open and filled with inspiration and all of a sudden I was able to think clearly. But enough about me, back to the discussion.

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Therefore, I never said this is the necessary criteria to select a Caliph, nor can such an idea be derived from my thesis. The rest of your questions are therefore moot

Your exact words were, "consequently sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, the Prophet’s right-hand man and most senior companion, was elected his first Successor or Khalifah (caliph)."

Please confirm if these were or were not the criteria for Calipha Abu Bakr's selection.

If not, why did you mention it.

If yes, then

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So criteria to select Caliph was Be Prophet's right hand man AND most senior companion? 

Please explain what you mean by "right hand man". Surely you don't mean "what your right hand possess" (مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ). Caliph Abu Bakr was not the Prophet's slave.

Please define "senior most". Age? Tenure?

Was there any other criteria?

 

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1 minute ago, ShiaMan14 said:

in another thread when someone claimed inspiration, you doubted their belief in the finality of Prophethood.

I don't recall this, what are you referring to?

Quote

Your exact words were, "consequently sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, the Prophet’s right-hand man and most senior companion, was elected his first Successor or Khalifah (caliph)."

Please confirm if these were or were not the criteria for Calipha Abu Bakr's selection.

If not, why did you mention it.

This is a descriptive statement regarding sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, not me speaking about the criteria for Caliphate.

I mentioned it as is my habit to praise and mention, including in passing, the virtues of eminent individuals of this Ummah, like the Sahabah and Awliya رضى الله عنهم اجمعين

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22 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I don't recall this, what are you referring to?

I believe it was on the Ghadeer thread but thats neither here nor there.

23 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

This is a descriptive statement regarding sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, not me speaking about the criteria for Caliphate.

I mentioned it as is my habit to praise and mention, including in passing, the virtues of eminent individuals of this Ummah, like the Sahabah and Awliya رضى الله عنهم اجمعين

Sorry, I am the opposite. I try to get the message across in the fewest words possible - kind of like how I summarized your lengthy initial post.

It becomes difficult to separate fluff from actual matter or like you stated, "get to meat and potatoes".

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I was hoping you would elaborate in your own words.

Sorry, I was running out of time at that moment and it was not possible for me to respond fully to your lengthy post from my cell phone.

I thought that the verse quoted (4:65) by me was sufficient to puncture your argument that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was elected as "judge" by consultation.

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The opening phrase of this verse (No, by your Lord) asserts that the decision of Allah is final and irrevocable. Allah has decreed that the Holy Prophet's judgements, decisions and directions (concerning all material, spiritual, personal and public matters) should be accepted and carried out by his followers, else profession of their faith would not be genuine and sincere.

Fima shajara baynahum gives unlimited powers to the Holy Prophet.

Thumma la yajidu fi anfusihim seals the decisive nature of the Holy Prophet's judgements, decisions and directions.

 

10 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

and a successor to his Prophesy will necessarily be a Prophet too

Not necessarily! 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not only holds the status of Prophethood but also the "Wilayah". A successor can also be nominated as "Mowla" and that is exactly what happened in Ghadeer.

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10 minutes ago, Cool said:

I thought that the verse quoted (4:65) by me was sufficient to puncture your argument that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was elected as "judge" by consultation.

Once elected to the office of judge (in the temporal sense), the judgments of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم are obviously binding upon the Believers. But the Verse also encompasses the judgments of the Prophet in his Prophetic capacity, as the one who conveys and judges by the Shari'ah.

In fact, every judge that is appointed over the people is required to judge by the Shari'ah. The method of passing judgment is one thing, the method of becoming judge is another. And so even the common judge (qadi) when he judges by the Shari'ah, his judgment must be obeyed and is binding upon those within his jurisdiction.

Finally, the act of judging does not necessarily mean one has attained the formal office of judge. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم made judgments even before his migration to Medina (and from the Islamic perspective those were binding upon the Believers), but did not possess the power to execute those judgments by force until after he was invited to occupy the office of a formal judge by the Ansar. They invited and elected him to that office of formal judge, he was not divinely appointed to it.

Quote

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not only holds the status of Prophethood but also the "Wilayah". A successor can also be nominated as "Mowla" and that is exactly what happened in Ghadeer.

You need to define this Wilayah and what you mean by it, what are its functions that are distinct from the office of Nubuwwah? Then we can proceed on this point

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Karen Armstrong writes: "Muhammad's position in Mecca remained dangerously insecure. During the hajj of 620, he again visited the pilgrims who were camping in the valley of Mina, going from tent to tent in the hope of attracting support and protection. This time, instead of wholesale rejection, he met a group of six Arabs from Yathrib, who had camped in the gully of 'Aqabah. As usual, Muhammad sat with them, explained his mission and recited the Qur'an, but this time, he noticed that the pilgrims were attentive and excited. When he had finished, they turned to one another and said that this must be the prophet expected by their Jewish and hanifi neighbors. If Muhammad really was the messenger of Allah, he might be just the person to solve the seemingly insuperable problems of Yathrib."

"At certain key moments, 'Abdullah ibn Ubayy, a chief of Khazraj, had stood aloof from the fighting and thus acquired a reputation for impartiality. Some saw him as a possible king or supreme chief, who could enforce law and order. But the Arabs were averse to monarchy, and this type of experiment had never worked well in the peninsula. The Aws were naturally reluctant to hand leadership to a member of Khazraj, while the other chiefs of Khazraj were equally unwilling to relinquish their power to Ibn Ubayy. The six pilgrims immediately realized that, as the spokesman of Allah, Muhammad would be a far more effective arbitrator (hakam) than Ibn Ubayy."

"But they admitted that they had little influence in the oasis, and needed to consult their chiefs and wise men. If he was to be an effective hakam, it was essential that he have wide support." (Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time)

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Another proof that the Prophet's صلى الله عليه وسلم role of judge in Medina was separate from his office of Prophesy is the fact that the Jews were required to accept his role of judge, which they did. They remained upon Judaism, but understood Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to be a judge, so they approached him for judgment. There are many narrations which detail this with examples. The Jews even invited the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to their madrassah in al-Quff, and asked him to judge a matter of adultery that happened in their community. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم judged their matter in accordance with the Torah, which they accepted and implemented.

It is obvious the Jews did not recognize Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم as a Prophet and Messenger of God, but they did recognize him as judge, which is proof that it is a separate office to his Prophesy.

A Shi'i scholar, Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi, writes: "All future disputes between those who accept this Charter shall be finally referred, after God, to the Prophet. The Jews of Medina accepted this Pact" (The Life of Muhammad the Prophet)

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Prophets are Khalif-at Allah on earth, from Prophet Adam onwards. Their authority is not limited and its from Allah. Its up to the people on earth to accept such authority, hence by accepting, they’re accepting authority of Allah, if not authority of taguts (false authorities)

Hence, when the people accept the authority of Rasoulalah (عليه السلام) ( all encompassing) , they’re accepting authority of Allah. We see that Rasoulallah excersizes that authority through leading the muslim ummah. 

Therefore: 

  • Khalfa is tied to accepting Allah’s authority 
  • Khalifa of Allah has no limitations (all encompassing)
  • Rasoulallah (عليه السلام) is messenger and Khalifa of Allah
  • Muslims accepted his Khalifa and accepted his leadership ( we can find similarities with prophet Musa (عليه السلام)
  • Rasoulallah (عليه السلام) exercised his authority (from Allah) without limitations
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4:59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you...." (known as The obedience verse

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وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً

 And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” Allah said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know.

(6:165)

وَهُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَكُمْ خَلَائِفَ الْأَرْضِ

And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

Prophets are Khalif-at Allah on earth, from Prophet Adam onwards. Their authority is not limited and its from Allah. Its up to the people on earth to accept such authority, hence by accepting, they’re accepting authority of Allah, if not authority of taguts (false authorities)

All Prophets possessed khilafat fil-Ard?

In the holy Quran, it is only King David عليه السلام who is directly named Khalifatan fil-Ard (38:26). Adam also possessed khilafat fil-Ard (2:30), but remember, in that Ayah, Adam is not named, and the Khalifah that Allah intends to place on the Earth is Adam who represents mankind collectively, because mankind is the chosen, collective Successor of God on the Earth.

Apart from these two individuals, Adam and David عليهما السلام, can you prove that all other Prophets possessed khilafat fil-Ard? You are required to prove that as it is your positive claim, and it is my negative claim that the vast majority of Prophets did not possess khilafat fil-Ard. However, the burden of proof is on you to establish your claim with definitive evidence as you are making a positive claim "Prophets are Khalif-at Allah on earth, from Prophet Adam onwards".

Next question: You say that in the presence of a Prophet, any other authority is the authority of taghut (false authority). So does that mean it is impossible for any individual who is not a Prophet but is a contemporary of a Prophet to possess Earthly authority that is valid in the sight of Allah?

 

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9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:
9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Once elected to the office of judge (in the temporal sense),

 

I have highlighted & underlined the word يُحَكِّمُوكَ specifically to show you that there is no concept of selection or election in Islam in case where a "wali e amr" is present.

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فَلَا وَرَبِّكَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَجِدُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا {65}

[Shakir 4:65] But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.
[Pickthal 4:65] But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission.
[Yusufali 4:65] But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

 

9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The method of passing judgment is one thing, the method of becoming judge is another. And so even the common judge (qadi) when he judges by the Shari'ah, his judgment must be obeyed and is binding upon those within his jurisdiction.

The choice whether to act as an arbitrator in the suits and disputes of the Jews, devourers of gains through unlawful means, entirely lay with the Holy Prophet

فَإِنْ جَاءُوكَ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ ۖ وَإِنْ تُعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ فَلَنْ يَضُرُّوكَ شَيْئًا ۖ وَإِنْ حَكَمْتَ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِالْقِسْطِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ

5:42

If the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was an "elected" judge, why many people say like this:

يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَٰذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِنْ لَمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُوا ۚ

What I would say is that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has accepted their offer to act as arbitrator. So instead of saying that People of Madina elected him as "judge", it is better to say that people of Madina have delegated the authority to settle or judge any dispute to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This makes him an arbitrator not the judge.

The role of a judge is limited & related with the administration of law. So what was the law of Madina which Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) administered and on what laws did he presided trials & passed judgements? 

9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم made judgments even before his migration to Medina (and from the Islamic perspective those were binding upon the Believers), but did not possess the power to execute those judgments by force until after he was invited to occupy the office of a formal judge by the Ansar. They invited and elected him to that office of formal judge, he was not divinely appointed to it.

Again, the duty of a judge is to administer the law. What was the law of that alleged public office which Prophet administered? 

According to an agreement between the two Jewish tribes of Madina (Bani Nadhir and Bani Qurayza) if a man of Bani Nadhir killed a man of Bani Qurayza, he would only pay half of the blood-money and would be paraded in the streets sitting on a camel with his face towards its tail On the other hand the murderer from the Bani Qurayza would pay full blood-money and would also face death if he killed any one of the Bani Nadhir tribe. This unjust arrangement was imposed on Bani Qurayza with the help of Abdullah bin Obayy. After the arrival of the Holy Prophet in Madina, a case of murder was referred to him for arbitration by both the tribes because the murderer, who belonged to Bani Qurayza, refused to comply with the terms of the unjust agreement which, his tribe declared, was against the law of Musa. The tribe of Bani Nadhir tried to influence the Holy Prophet through Abdullah bin Obay for obtaining his judgement in their favour, with the reservation that if he did not oblige them his judgement would not be accepted. 

 

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9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

You need to define this Wilayah and what you mean by it, what are its functions that are distinct from the office of Nubuwwah?

Please go through the following article:

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/wilayat-and-its-scope

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21 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

It is descending into debates over minor even petty points while overlooking the big picture. Therefore, I want to start such a discussion which will cut to the chase and get to the heart of the matter.

Therefore, this thread is dedicated solely to the next topic, which is my argument that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم possessed two capacities or roles, the first his original office of Prophesy, and the second he acquired after the Second Pledge of Aqabah, the office of judge and arbitrator of Medina.

The succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was to his office of ruler, and not Prophet, since he is the last Prophet, and a successor to his Prophesy will necessarily be a Prophet too. Since the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not divinely appointed to the role of judge and ruler of Medina, it makes sense that his successor to that role would also not be divinely appointed:

The prophet is a chosen representative  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  as mentioned below:

1. Prophet appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error, (62:2)

2. As a Ruler / Leader to be obeyed .

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:29)

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:30)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

The prophet has authority to be obeyed by all the muslims and those who were mentioned as Ulil Amr, those in authority comes after the prophet to confirm his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  divine authority over the believers as Ruler / Leader.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَن تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُم بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَن تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُم بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا

Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. (4:58)

The prophet has both capacities to acquire the prophet hood and as Ruler over believing muslims as divine appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that has been mentioned in the above verses. wasalam

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21 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

 The community of Believers he founded understood this fact. But they also understood that the Prophet had a secondary role of administrator and possessed temporal authority which could be succeeded to. Since the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself was not divinely appointed to that role, it was obvious that any successor to that role would not be divinely appointed either. Rather, just as the Prophet was invited to take on the responsibility of administration and temporal authority after consultation among the Believers of Yathrib, likewise, their elders and the senior companions of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ought to consult among themselves and elect a suitable successor to that role of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. This they did, and consequently sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, the Prophet’s right-hand man and most senior companion, was elected his first Successor or Khalifah (caliph). He assumed only those responsibilities and functions that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم wielded which were not connected to his office of Prophesy.

I have already shown to you before that consultation is not a basis to choose a divine leader, ruler ,caliph, prophet or imam with the verses of Quran. I like to add the following verses in support my view from quran:

The interpretation for verse 42:38 is explained as below:

وَالَّذِينَ اسْتَجَابُوا لِرَبِّهِمْ وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَىٰ بَيْنَهُمْ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنفِقُونَ

And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.

It is worthy of note that one is supposed to seek consultation regarding the affairs of people, but one is not supposed to do likewise concerning Divine matters, e.g. Prophethood, Resurrection, Imamate, and worship of God. Imamate and leading the Muslim community are also Divine Covenants, since Abraham (عليه السلام) invoked God Almighty and asked Him to appoint his offspring to lead the community and God Almighty answered to him:

“Leadership and Imamate are My Covenants and appointment of individuals to the same is dependent upon My Will rather than your invocation, since wrong-doers do not deserve leadership.” (2:124)

Thus, we should surrender to Him in terms of the leadership of the Muslim community, as it is reflected in the Holy Qur’an,

“Indeed, I appoint you as the leader of people.”

Believers also consult with each other and act upon each other’s discretion. They do not act opinionatedly. Consultation is fruitful in consulting with the wise and scholars since it leads to favorable consequences.

The selection of leaders / prophets/ imams / prophets /caliphs is not the affair of the people but it is the right of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone. The evidence can be seen from the following verses:

1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as caliph / successor on the earth.  No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

2- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

3-  Hz Adam, Nuh,  Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were  sent to his nation. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

5- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

6- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

7-Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, No consultation was made for his selection with any one. whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams.

8- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made Dawood  a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

9- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection?

10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor  in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for this worst action.

11- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made 12 leaders among the children of israel. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

12- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. No consultation was made for his selection by any one.

13- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did Almighty aj make any consultation for his selection?

14- Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection?

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

ۚ فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ ۚ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration. (35:43)

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the successor(Calif Abubakr) is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (33:36)

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21 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

 This argument was inspired to me, and I am fairly positive it has never truly been put forward by any Sunni Muslim to refute the falsehood of Shi’ism prior to this.

I like to mention that before we move further in the discussion  where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people by consultation?

The answer is No.

The examples have been mentioned in my last post above that no consultation was taken place as per quran for the selection of a prophet, leader, caliph, or imam except they were appointed by Alalh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

wasalam

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

it is better to say that people of Madina have delegated the authority to settle or judge any dispute to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This makes him an arbitrator not the judge.

In Muhammad's last years in Mecca, a delegation from Medina from its twelve important clans invited him as a neutral outsider to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

And the following text mentions at what capacity Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) operated and acted as arbitrator

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In the name of God, the Beneficent and the Merciful

(1) This is a prescript of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم), the Prophet and Messenger of God (to operate) between the faithful and the followers of Islam from among the Quraish and the people of Madina and those who may be under them, may join them and take part in wars in their company.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

 

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For further explaining my point to layman, where I am coming from & what exactly I am arguing:

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Differences Between Arbitration and Litigation 

Litigation is an ancient process that involves determining issues through a court, with a judge or jury. The type of court is decided by the type of dispute, based on jurisdiction. In most civil cases, jurisdiction is based on where the lawsuit originated.

Arbitration, on the other hand, involves two parties in a dispute who agree to work with a disinterested third party in an attempt to resolve the dispute. 

 

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Salaam @Cool @Muslim2010 @Shiawarrior313 and @Cherub786 aka Cherry.

I think this is a fantastic topic that should be explored in great depth.

Reluctantly, I do have to burst Cherry's bubble when he said that is the first time any one has ever thought of separate offices of Prophet & Caliphate, and Imamat & Caliphate and it was inspired to him. Shia scholars have literally been discussing this for centuries so at the very least, sunni inspiration is severely lagging behind shia inspiration. I could throw in a dig about following Ahlul-Bayt leads to faster inspiration but let's leave that alone.

Now, Prophethood and caliphate. Before we discuss the invitations of the Medinites, shouldn't we investigate the role of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in Mecca. Was he acting as a religious figure only for the Muslims or was he their political leader as well.

I contend that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the political leader of the Muslims in Mecca (before hijra). An example is telling people to move to Abyssinia was a political move.

Thoughts? 

 

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13 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

All Prophets possessed khilafat fil-Ard?

In the holy Quran, it is only King David عليه السلام who is directly named Khalifatan fil-Ard (38:26). Adam also possessed khilafat fil-Ard (2:30), but remember, in that Ayah, Adam is not named, and the Khalifah that Allah intends to place on the Earth is Adam who represents mankind collectively, because mankind is the chosen, collective Successor of God on the Earth.

Apart from these two individuals, Adam and David عليهما السلام, can you prove that all other Prophets possessed khilafat fil-Ard? You are required to prove that as it is your positive claim, and it is my negative claim that the vast majority of Prophets did not possess khilafat fil-Ard. However, the burden of proof is on you to establish your claim with definitive evidence as you are making a positive claim "Prophets are Khalif-at Allah on earth, from Prophet Adam onwards".

Khalifa of Allah (representatives of Allah). Its not only limited to the direct example in Quran and Allah has specified Khalifa on earth on multiple general instances regarding those he chooses. such as:

Quote

“It is He who has made you successors on the earth, and raised some of you in rank above others so that He may test you in respect to what He has given you. quran:6:165  rest can be found here: https://www.thelastdialogue.org/article/the-word-khalifa-mentioned-in-quran/

 Their rank and scope might differ. Some for their own community, some greater. eg. multiple prophets at the same time follow a hierarchy. prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) had higher authority than prophet Lut (عليه السلام). Regardless, being representatives of Allah (prophets, messengers, imams), gives them authority from Allah.

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“For every nation/community there has been a guide” {Qur’an 13:7}

“And verily, We have sent among every community a messenger” {Qur’an 16:36}

 

The scope of their authority upon the people, however is not limited, as it entails the entirety of Allah's guidance and authority, including governance. 

In particular, Rasoulallah (عليه السلام), his authority is explained to be encompassing and obedience on every matter obligatory, same as obeying Allah

Quote

4:59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you...." (known as The obedience verse

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Next question: You say that in the presence of a Prophet, any other authority is the authority of taghut (false authority). So does that mean it is impossible for any individual who is not a Prophet but is a contemporary of a Prophet to possess Earthly authority that is valid in the sight of Allah?

Prophet can appoint someone to lead the masses and people are obligated to obey, as prophet relay Allah's command. Prophets do not act upon their own desires. If reference here are to Ahlul bait, then they posses the rank of Imammat and are representatives of Allah. There are the ones referred to "those charged with authority among you". Their authority, much like the messenger of Allah, is not limited and all encompassing. 

You need to show proof that Allah limits the authority of his representatives.

 

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5 hours ago, Shiawarrior313 said:

The scope of their authority upon the people, however is not limited, as it entails the entirety of Allah's guidance and authority, including governance. 

You need to show proof that Allah limits the authority of his representatives.

I don't claim that a Prophet's authority is limited. A Prophet possesses the highest authority, as he speaks directly on behalf of God. No one can overrule a Prophet.

The issue is do all Prophets necessarily occupy an office of administrative rule and leadership? The answer is no. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did not occupy such an office during the Meccan phase. He was appointed to it in the Medinese phase by the Ansar, who consulted among themselves and decided to select him to act as their judge and ruler in the political sense.

Consider the example of Prophet Samuel عليه السلام appointing Talut (Saul) King of Israel. Talut was not a prophet, but he was the one who became king and not the Prophet (Samuel).

This doesn't mean Prophet Samuel's authority was ever limited, or that Talut possessed greater authority than him. Prophet Samuel, being a Prophet, possessed the highest authority at the time, as he spoke directly on behalf of God. He could potentially overrule Talut, if Talut acted or ordered something contrary to the divine Revelation of the Prophet Samuel.

But note Prophet Samuel did not occupy any office of political authority, before or after the appointment of Talut as king.

According to your doctrine, the Israelites should never have asked their Prophet (Samuel) to appoint a king for them, since the Prophet is present and should already possess the office of political rule. The fact that the Israelites asked for a king, so they could have a kingdom and wage Jihad, points to its administrative benefit. It also proves that just because there is a Prophet present, it doesn't follow that he occupies an office of political authority. If he does occupy that office after becoming a Prophet (in the case of Prophet Muhammad), then that office is separate from the Prophetic role, though subject to it

Edited by Cherub786
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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I contend that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the political leader of the Muslims in Mecca (before hijra). An example is telling people to move to Abyssinia was a political move.

Hmmm, I was expecting a curveball, instead you throw me this softball.

So is your argument that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم made a strategic, political decision which indicates he possessed political authority? (it doesn't, any one can make a strategic, political decision, that doesn't necessitate possession of formal, official political authority)

Or is your argument that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم telling his followers to emigrate to Abyssinia required political authority to issue such a decision? (it doesn't)

Regarding the second scenario, did the Prophet order, permit or recommend that his followers emigrate to Abyssinia? There are fine distinctions between all three (order, permit and recommend).

The Believers are required to obey the Prophet, regardless of whether the Prophet possesses formal, political office or not. Possession of formal, political office means an individual is in a position to execute his orders with the backing of power, force (the Prophet clearly did not possess such power in Mecca), and that the functions of political authority are organized and systematized.

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9 hours ago, Cool said:

In Muhammad's last years in Mecca, a delegation from Medina from its twelve important clans invited him as a neutral outsider to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

And the following text mentions at what capacity Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) operated and acted as arbitrator

Please don't quote Wikipedia, quote primary sources only. I'm saying this even though, ironically and surprisingly, what you quoted actually summarizes and confirms my argument: "In Muhammad's last years in Mecca, a delegation from Medina from its twelve important clans invited him as a neutral outsider to serve as the chief arbitrator for the entire community."

That just proves my position that the Prophet was not divinely appointed to the office of "chief arbitrator", he was invited to occupy that office by the clans of Medina

 

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11 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

I like to mention that before we move further in the discussion  where is the verse of Quran that states that the People can choose a prophet, leader, caliph, imam or successor of the prophet? Any example from quran of the caliph chosen by the people by consultation?

The answer is No.

Perhaps not an example (though the king of Egypt did chose to appoint Prophet Joseph to a position of authority that was not divinely appointed), but certainly the principle is enshrined in the Quran that Believers are authorized (actually encouraged) to determine their affairs through consultation (Surah 42:38). That includes the affair of leadership.

The example of Prophet Joseph is another proof for my argument. Prophet Joseph possessed Nubuwwah before he was appointed by the king of Egypt to the portfolio of minister of the treasury. Does anyone deny that that role of treasury minister was in addition to, separate from, the original role of Prophesy? And does anyone deny that Prophet Joseph عليه السلام was not divinely appointed by Allah to be the treasury minister of Egypt?

The only difference is, Prophet Joseph عليه السلام was directly appointed to that role by a king, whereas Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was appointed to the role of chief arbitrator through a process of consultation among the clan elders and chieftains of Medina, and further, Prophet Joseph, in his capacity of treasury minister was still subject to the king's authority. Yet both assumed this additional role to their Prophesy which they were not divinely appointed to.

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Would you please quote by a verse of quran to justify your claim that no successor was left by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after him?

Firstly, this isn't the topic of this thread (go back to my first thread on the succession topic). Secondly, the burden of proof is on you to prove from the Quran that the Prophet appointed a successor, the burden of proof is not on me to prove the Prophet did not appoint a successor (this was the original point I made to Ansur at the beginning of our debate). The fact that the Quran is silent on the matter of who should succeed the Prophet is proof that the Prophet didn't select a successor, not a proof that he did

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11 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The prophet is a chosen representative  by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  as mentioned below:

1. Prophet appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error, (62:2)

Your argument is so weak :NH:

The verse you quoted is regarding the office of Nubuwwah and Risalah. Who is disputing that this is a divinely appointed office?

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2. As a Ruler / Leader to be obeyed .

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:29)

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:30)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

I already clarified that the obligation to obey someone does not necessitate that he occupies a formal office of political authority. The Quran does say we are required to obey the Prophet, it doesn't say he has been divinely appointed to be the ruler. If the axis of your entire argument is going to be that Prophets must be obeyed and possess the highest authority in that respect among the creation, this is going to be a very easy and short discussion for me.

The point you need to address is was the Prophet divinely appointed to his office of formalized, political authority, his role of being chief arbitrator of Medina? I've already proven he was not divinely appointed to that office, he was elected to it by the clans of Medina. That's the point you need to refute.

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إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَن تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُم بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَن تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُم بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا

Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. (4:58)

"when you [plural] judge between people you [plural] judge with justice" 

Hakamtum and Tahkumoo are in the plural, it proves that it is not a specific address to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but to all Believers. This actually demolishes your entire argument (how ironic), because all Believers are authorized to judge according to this Ayah, yet it is obvious that not all Believers have been divinely appointed to a formal office of political authority or judge.

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