Does Imam Ali have knowledge of all things except creation?

[313_Waiter]

What is meant by “all things”? All knowledge except knowledge of Creation?

 

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Quran 36:12
Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear register [“Imam”]

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The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about Ali “He is the Imam in whom God records the knowledge of all things“ al Qummi (from The Study Quran)

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“I, by God, am the clear imām; I clarify truth from falsehood. I inherited it from the Messenger of God” The study quran

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

28 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

What is meant by “all things”? All knowledge except knowledge of Creation?

 

 

There was knowledge of the books given to them.

And what was from ghaib , Allah told them from it but never gave all of the Ghaib to Imams (عليه السلام)

Thats our aqeedah.

[randomly curious]

Surely, We Revive the dead, and We Write down whatever they send forward and their impacts, and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12]

And Ali Bin Ibrahim said, 

Regarding His Words:

 and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12],

 Ibn Abbas mentioned from Amir-al-Momineen (عليه السلام) having said:

‘By Allah (عزّ وجلّ), I am the clarifying Imam, clarifying the Truth from the Falsehood, having inherited it from Rasool-Allah (saws)’.

تفسير الق ّمي 2 :212

 

The Sheykh in the Book Misbaah Al-Anwaar by his unbroken chain going up to Mufazzal-Ibn Umar, who said, 

‘I went to Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) one day, He (عليه السلام) said to me:

 ‘O Mufazzal! Do you recognise Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and Ali (عليه السلام), and (Syeda) Fatima (عليه السلام), and Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), and Al-Husayn a s about what they knew?’ I said, ‘O my master, what was it that they (عليه السلام) knew?

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Mufazzal, you should know that they (عليه السلام) are among the flyers from the creatures besides the green Garden. So the one who recognises them (عليه السلام) would be with us (عليه السلام) in the highest level. I said, ‘Let me know that, O my Master (عليه السلام).’

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Mufazzal, know that they (عليه السلام) knew what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic has Created, and it creation, and they (عليه السلام) are the Pious Words, and the treasurers of the skies and the firmaments, and the mountains, and the sands, and the oceans, and they (عليه السلام) knew the stars in the sky, and Angels, and the weight of the mountains, and depth of the water of the oceans, and rivers, and springs, and not a single leaf fell down except that they had its knowledge, there was no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing wet, and nothing dry except that it is in a clear Book, and that was in their (عليه السلام) knowledge, and they knew that.’

I said, ‘O my Master, I know that (now), and I accept it and believe in it.’ He (عليه السلام) said: 

‘Yes, O Mufazzal, yes O honoured one, yes O goodly one, yes O beloved one and there is Paradise for you willingly, and for all who believe in this.’

 

مصباح األنوار: 134« مخطوط«، 
تأويل اآليات 2 :488 /4.

P.s

And as soon as an Imam (عليه السلام) is about to pass away (apparently), the next Imam (عليه السلام) after him inherits His knowledge.

 

 

And from Ammar Bin Yaasir, who said, 

‘I was with Amir-Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) in one of the military expeditions. We passed by a valley of ants. I said,

 ‘O Amir-Al-Momineen (عليه السلام), do you know of anyone from the creation of Allahazwj who knows about the number of these ants?’ 

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Yes, 

O Ammar, I am aware of a man who knows their number, and how many of them are male, and how many of them are female.’ 

I said, ‘Who is that man, O my Master?’ 

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Ammar, Have you not read in Surah Ya Seen: and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12]?

 I said, ‘Yes, O my master!’

 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘I  am that clarifying Imam.

الفضائل البن شاذان: 94.

 

 

And from him, from Abu Ali Al-Ashary, from Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Ibn Fazal, and Al-Hajaal, altogether, from Sa’albat, from Ziyad who said, 

 

‘Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) said: ‘Rasool-Allah (saws) encamped at barren land, and He said to his companions:

 ‘Come to me with the firewood’. 

They said, ‘O Rasool-Allah (saws), we are at a barren land, there is no firewood here’.

 He (saws) said:

 ‘So every person should bring whatever he can’. So they came with it (small sticks) until they threw these in front of him, on top of each other (in a pile).

Rasool-Allah (saws) said:

 

‘This is how the sins pile up’. Then he (saws) said:

 ‘And beware of the belittled Sins (Sins held in light estimation). For everything, there is a seeker. 

Indeed, and if you were to seek these, He (عزّ وجلّ) will Write down whatever you send before and its effects: 

[36:12] and We Write down what they have sent before and its effects, and We have Enumerated everything in a Manifest Imam’.

 

3 /218 :2 

 

Al Husayn Bin Muhammad Al Ashary, from Moalla Bin Muhammad, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, 
from Al Haris Bin Ja’far, from Ali Bin Ismail Bin Yaqteen, from Isa Bin Al Mustafad Abu Musa Al Zareyr who said,

 

It was narrated to me by Musa Bin Ja’fara (عليه السلام).

 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘I said to Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام): ‘Wasn’t Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) the writer of the will, and Rasool-Allah (saws) dictated it to him, and Jibraeel and the Angels of Proximity witnesses?’

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘After pausing for a for a long time, he (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام)! It had transpired what you said, but when the Command descended unto Rasool-Allah (saws), the will (also) descended from the Presence of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) as a written record. Jibraeel descended with it along with the Trustees of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Blessed and Exalted, from the Angels'.

 

So I (the narrator) said to Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام), ‘By my father and my mother! Will you not mention what was in the will?’

 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Sunnah of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and Sunnah of His Rasool’.

 

So I said, ‘Was their usurpation in the will, and their opposition against Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) ?’ He said: ‘Yes, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)! Thing by thing, and letter by letter. Have you not heard the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic:

Surely, We Revive the dead, and We Write down whatever they send forward and their impacts, and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12]?’’

 

  23H – تفسير نور الثقلين، ج4 ،ص: 378

 

 

Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Abu Zahir, or someone else, from Muhammad Bin Hammad, from his 
father Ahmad Bin Hammad, from Ibrahim, from his father, 

 

‘From Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام) the 1st, said,

 ‘I said to hima, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! Inform me about the Prophet. Did he inherit the Prophets, all of them?’ He (عليه السلام)
said:

 ‘Yes’. I said, ‘From Adam (عليه السلام) until it ended to himself?’

 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) did not Send a Prophet  except that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was more knowledgeable than him (عليه السلام)'. 

He (the narrator) said, ‘I said, ‘Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام) used to revive the dead by the Permission 
of Allah (عزّ وجلّ)’. 

 

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘You speak the truth’. (I said), ‘And Suleyman Bin Dawood (عليه السلام) used to understand the speech of the bird, and was Rasool-Allah able to be upon this status?’ 

He (the narrator) said,

 ‘Suleyman Bin Dawood said to the Hoopoe (bird) when he missed it and doubted regarding its matter, so he said:

 

What is the matter that I cannot see the hoopoe or is it from the absentees? [27:20],

when he (عليه السلام) missed it. So heas was angry upon it, so he said:

 

‘I will punish it with a severe punishment, or slaughter it, or it brings to me a clear authorisation (for its absence) [27:21]’.

And rather, he (عليه السلام) was angry because it used to navigate for him upon the waters. So, this one, and it was a bird, and it had been Given what Suleyman had not been Given. And it was so that the wind, and the ant, and the humans, and the jinn, and the Satans (l.a) were chained to him (عليه السلام) in obedience, and he did not happen to recognise the water beneath the atmosphere, and the bird used to recognise it.

And Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is Saying in His Book: 

And even if there were a Quran by which the mountains were made to pass away, or the earth were travelled over by it, or the dead were made to speak thereby [13:31],

and we (عليه السلام) have inherited this Quran wherein is what the mountains can be made to passed with, and the cities be made to travel with, and the dead to be revived with, and we (عليه السلام) know the water beneath the atmosphere.

And in the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) there are Verses what a matter can be intended with except that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has Permitted with it, along with what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) had Permitted from what He (عزّ وجلّ) had Prescribed the past ones with. Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has Made it to be for us in the Mother of the Book (Umm Al-Kitab). Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is Saying:

 

 [27:75] And there is nothing concealed in the sky and the earth but it is in a Clarifying Book.

 

Then He (عزّ وجلّ)Said:

Then We Gave the Book as an inheritance to those whom We Chose from among Our servants. 

So we (عليه السلام) are those whom Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic has Chosen and Made us (عليه السلام) to inherit this (Quran) wherein is an explanation of everything’’.

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 10

 

 

Ali Bin Khalid, from Ibn Yazeed, from Abbas Al Waraq, from Usman Bin Isa, from Ibn Muskan, from Lays Al Murady, from Sadeyr who said, 

 

‘I was in the presence of Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) when a man from the people of Yemen passed by, so Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) asked him about Yemen. He went on to narrate.

Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said to him: 

‘Do you recognise such and such house?’ He said, ‘Yes, and I have seen it’.

He (the narrator) said, ‘Abu Ja’far (asws) said: 

‘Do you recognise a rock by it in such and such place?’ He said, ‘Yes, and I have seen it’. Then the man said, ‘I have not seen any man more knowing with a city than you (عليه السلام) are’.

When the man arose, Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) said to me:

 

‘O Abu Al-Fazl! That is the rock when Musa (عليه السلام) was angry and threw the Tablets, and whatever went from the Torah, the rock swallowed. 

When Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Sent His Rasool (saws), fulfilled (brought it out) to him (saws), and it is with us".

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 19

From Abu Khalid Al Qamat, 

‘From Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) having said: ‘With us are the Parchments of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), and Musa (عليه السلام), and we inherited from Rasool-Allah (saws)’

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 20

 

Ibn Marouf, from Hamad, from Hareyz, from Abu Baseer, 

‘From Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) having said: ‘Ali (عليه السلام) was asked about the knowledge of the Prophet (saws), 

 

so he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Knowledge of the Prophet (saws) is the knowledge of the entirety of the Prophets (عليه السلام), and knowledge of what has happened, and knowledge what will be happening up to the establishment of the Hour’’

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 31

 

 

Ahmad Bin Is’haq, from Abdullah Bin Hamad, from Sayf Al Tammar, 

‘From Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) having said: ‘By the Lord of the Kabah, and by the Lord of the House!’ – three times – 

If I  were in-between Musa (عليه السلام) and Al-Khizr (عليه السلام), I would have informed them both than I am more knowledgeable than them, and informed them with what wasn’t in their hands, because Musa and Al-Khizr  were both Given the knowledge of what had happened, and were not Given the knowledge of what would be happening.

And Rasool-Allah (saws) was Given knowledge of what had happened and what would be happening up to the Day of Qiyamah, and we (saws) inherited from Rasool-Allah (saws) and (it is in our) inheritance’’

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 32

 

Ali Bin Muhammad Bin Saeed, from Hamdan Bin Suleyman, from Ubeydullah Bin Muhammad Al Yamani, from Muslim Bin Al Hajjaj, from Yunus, from Al Husayn Bin Ulwan,

‘Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) having said:

 ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Created the Determines ones (Ul Al-Azm) from the Rasools (عليه السلام), and Merited them with the knowledge, and we a.sinherited their knowledge and are Merited over them regarding their knowledge and knowledge of Rasool-Allah (saws)
what they did not know, and we (asws) know the knowledge of Rasool-Allah (saws)’’.

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 33

 

Muhammad Bin Isa, from Al Barqy, from Al Nazar, from Yahya Al Halby, from Abu Baseer who said,

 

‘I said to Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام), 

‘Did Muhammad (saws) see the kingdoms of the skies and the earth 
just as Ibrahim (عليه السلام) saw?’

 He (عليه السلام) said: ‘As so did your Master’’

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 39

Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Muhammad bin Al Fazeyl, from Abu Al Sabah Al Kanany, 

‘From Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام), from his forefathers  having said:

‘Rasool-Allah (saws) came out to us and there was a book in his right hand, and there was a book in his left hand.

He (saws) spread out the book which was in the right hand and read: ‘In the Name of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Beneficent the Merciful. (This is) a book of the people of the Paradise with their names and the names of their fathers. Not one will increase among them nor will anyone be reduced from them’

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Then he (saws) spread out that which was in the left hand and read: ‘(This is) a book from Allah (عزّ وجلّ) the Beneficent the Merciful of the people of the Fire with their names and the names of their fathers and their tribes. Not one will increase in them nor will anyone will be reduced from them’’.

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 40

 

 

Abu Al Fazal Al Alawy, from Saeed Bin Isa, from Ibrahim Bin Al Hakam Bin Zaheer, from his father, from 
Shareek Bin Abdullah, from Abdul A’ala, from Abu Waqas, 

 

‘From Salman Al-Muhammadi who said,

 ‘I heard Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) saying regarding the Words of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic:

Surely, in that are Signs for the distinguishers 
[15:75].

 

Rasool-Allah (saws) used to distinguish the people with their markings, and I am a distinguisher after him, and the Imams (عليه السلام) from my offspring are the distinguishers up to the Day of Qiyamah’’.

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 42

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Al Hassan Bin Sayf, from his father, from the one who mentioned it, 

 

‘From Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) having said:

‘Rasool-Allah (saws) addressed the people, then raised his right hand gripping his palm, then said:

 ‘O you people! What is in my palm?’ 
They said, 

‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and His Rasool (saws) are more knowing’. 

So he (saws) said:

‘In it are the names of the inhabitants of the Paradise and the names of their fathers and their tribes, up to the Day of Judgment’.

 

Then he (saws) raised his left hand and he (saws) said: 

 

‘O you people! Do you know what is in my palm?’ They said, ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and His Rasool (saws) are more knowing’. So he (saws) said: 

‘The names of the inhabitants of the Fire, and the names of their fathers and their tribes, up to the Day of Judgment’.

Then he (saws) said:

 ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Judged and was Just! Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Judged and was Just! A party in the Paradise and a party in the Blazing Fire’’.

 

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 17, The book of our Prophet, Ch 17 H 55

 

‘From Abu Abdullah (asws) having said:

‘When Rasool-Allah (saws) passed away, Ali (asws) inherited his knowledge and his weapons, and whatever was there. Then it came to Al-Hassan (asws) and Al-Husayn (asws), then it came to Ali Bin Al-Husayn (asws)'’.

 

Basaair Al Darajaat – P 4 Ch 4 H 8

 

It is narrated to us by Ibn Yazeed and Muhammad, from Al Husayn, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Ibn Uzina, from Ali Bin Saeed who said, 

‘I was in the presence of Abu Abdullah (asws) and I heard him (asws) saying: ‘With me is the seal (insignia) of Rasool-Allah (saws), and his armour, and his sword, and his banner’’.

 

Basaair Al Darajaat – P 4 Ch 4 H 12

 

It is narrated to us by Muhammad Bin Al Husayn, from Musa Bin Sa’dan, from Abu Al Husayn Al Asady, from 
Abu Baseer, 

 

‘From Abu Ja’far (asws) having said: ‘One night, AmirAl-Momineen (asws) came out to his companions after darkness, and they were in Al-Rahba, and he (asws) was saying humming: 

‘And the night is dark, the Imamasws is coming out to you and upon him (asws) is the shirt of Adam (a), and in his hand is the ring of Suleyman (a) and staff of Musa (a)’’.

Basaair Al Darajaat – P 4 Ch 4 H 13

 

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed, from Al Nazar Bin Suweyd, from Yahya Al Halby, from Bureyd Bin Muawiya, from Muhammad Bin Muslim, 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (asws) having said: ‘Surely, Ali (asws) was a Knowledgeable one, and the Knowledge is inherited and the knowledgeable one will never pass away except that there would remain from after him (asws) the one  who knows his knowledge, or whatever Allah (عزّ وجلّ) so Desires’

71 Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 32 H 1

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Hammad Bin Isa, from Hareyz, from Zurara and Al Fuzayl, 

 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’far (asws) having said: 

‘The Knowledge is that which descended with Adam (a). It has not been Raised (ever since). And the Knowledge is inherited, and It was so that Ali (asws) was a knowledgeable one of this community, and a knowledgeable one from us does not pass away at all except he (asws) is replaced from his family, one who knows the like his knowledge, or whatever Allah (عزّ وجلّ) so Desires’.

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 32 H 2

 

Muhammad, from Ahmad Bin Ali Bin Al Numan, raising it from Abu Ja’far (asws), said: 

‘Abu Ja’far (asws) said:

 

‘They (people) are sucking the moisture and are leaving the magnificent river’. 

It was said to him (asws), ‘And what is the magnificent river?’ He (saws) said:

‘Rasool-Allah (saws) and the Knowledge which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Granted him. Allah Mighty and Majestic Gathered for 
Muhammad (saws(, the Sunnah of the Prophets (a), from Adam (a) and brought forwards flowing up to Muhammad (saws)’

 

It was said to him (asws), ‘And what is that Sunnah?’ He (asws) said: ‘Knowledge of the Prophets (a) in its entirety, and that Rasool-Allah (saws) rendered that, all of it with Amir Al-Momineen (asws).

So a man said to him (asws), 

‘O son of Rasool-Allah (saws)! So, is Amir Al-Momineen (asws) more knowledgeable or some of the Prophets (a)?’ So Abu Ja’far (asws) said to him: ‘Listen to what he is saying! Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Opens the hearing of the ones He so Desires to. I narrated to him that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Gathered to Muhammad (saws) the Knowledge of the Prophets (a), and that he (saws) gathered that, all of it, to be with Amir Al-Momineen (asws), and he is asking me, is he (asws) more knowledgeable or some of the Prophets?’.

 

 Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 32 H 6

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Abdul Aziz Bin Al Muhtady,

(It has been narrated) from Abdullah Bin Jundab that Al-Reza (asws) wrote to him: ‘As for after this, so Muhammad (saws) was a trustee of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) among His creatures. So when he (saws) passed away, it was us, the People of the Household who inherited him. Thus, we (asws) are the trustees of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) in His earth.

With us is the knowledge of the calamities and the deaths, and the lineages of the Arabs, and the birth of Al-Islam. And we tend to recognise the man when we see him, by the reality of the Eman and the reality of the hypocrisy, and that our Shias are recorded with their names and the names of their fathers. Allah (عزّ وجلّ)Took the Covenant upon us and upon them. They are intending our intentions and are entering our entries. There isn’t upon the nation of Al-Islam apart from us and them.

We are the saviours for the salvation, and we are the amplified of the Prophets (a), and we are the sons of the successors, and we the ones particularised in the Book of Allah Mighty and Majestic, and we are the closest of the people with the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), and we are the closest of the people with Rasool-Allah (saws).

And we are those for whom Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Legislated His Religion for us, so He Said in His Book [42:13] He has Legislated to you O Progeny of Muhammad (saws) from the Religion what He Enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have Revealed to you O Muhammad (saws), and that which We Enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa.

So He (عزّ وجلّ) has Taught us, and Delivered to Us the Knowledge what we know, and Entrusted us their knowledge. We are the inheritors of the Determined Ones (Ul Al-Azam) from the Rasools (a) that you would be steadfast upon the Religion O Progeny of Muhammad (saws) and be not divided therein, and become one group, hard it is to the Polytheists the ones who associate others with the Wilayah of Ali (asws) that which you call them to from the Wilayah of Ali (asws). Allah, O Muhammad (saws), Guides to Himself him who turns, the one who answers you to the Wilayah of Ali (asws)’.

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 33 H 1

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Abdullah Bin Al Hajjal, from Ahmad Bin Umar Al Halby, from Abu Baseer who said, 

‘I went over to Abu Abdullah (asws( and I said to him, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! I want to ask you a question. Is there anyone over here who would hear my speech?’ So Abu Abdullah (asws) raised a curtain between him and another room, and looked into it, then said: ‘O Abu Muhammad! Ask about whatever comes to you’.

He (Abu Baseer) said, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! Your Shias are narrating that Rasool-Allah (saws) taught Ali (asws) such a door (of knowledge) that a thousand (other) doors (of knowledge) opened from it’. So he (asws) said: ‘O Abu Muhammad! Rasool-Allah (saws)taught Ali (asws) a thousand doors (of knowledge), there opening from each of the doors, a thousand (other) doors (of knowledge)’. I said, ‘This, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ), is the knowledge!’. So he (asws) made marks in the ground for a while, then said: ‘It is a knowledge, but it is not that (knowledge)’.

He (Abu Baseer) said, ‘Then he (asws) said: ‘O Abu Muhammad! And with us is the Jami’e, and what do they (people) know what the Jami’e is?’ I said, ‘May be sacrificed for you! And what is the Jami’e?

He (asws) said: ‘A Parchment of the length of seventy cubits by the cubit (measurement) of Rasool-Allah (asws) and his dictation from his own mouth, and handwritten by Ali (asws) by his right hand. Therein are the Permissible and the Prohibitions, and everything that the people would be needy to, to the extent of the compensation regarding the scratch’, and he (asws) struck with his hand towards me, and he (asws) said: ‘Will you permit me, O Abu Muhammad? I said, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! But rather, I am for you, therefore do whatever you so desire to’. So he (asws)pressed me by his hand and said: ‘To the extent of this’, as if he (asws)  was angry. I said, ‘This, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ), is the knowledge!’. He (asws) said: ‘It is a knowledge, but it is not that (knowledge)!’

Then he (asws) was silent for a while, then said: ‘And with us is the Jaf’r, and what do they (people) know what the Jaf’r is?’ I said, ‘And what is the Jaf’r?’ He (asws) said: 

‘A receptacle from Adam (a) wherein is knowledge of the Prophets (a), and the successors (a), and knowledge of the scholars of the past from the Children of Israel’. I said, ‘This, is the knowledge!’ He (asws) said: ‘It is knowledge, and it isn’t that (knowledge)!

 

Then he (asws) was silent for a while, then said: ‘And with us is the Parchment of Syeda Fatima (asws), and what do they (people) know what the Parchment of Fatima (asws) is?’ I said, ‘And what is the Parchment of Fatima (asws)?’ He (asws) said: ‘A Parchment where is the likes of this Quran of yours three times over. By Allah (عزّ وجلّ)! And there is not a single letter from your Quran therein’. I said, ‘This, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ), is the knowledge!’ He (asws) said: ‘It is a knowledge, but it is not that (knowledge)!’.

Then he (asws) was silent for a while, then said: ‘With us is knowledge of whatever has happened, and what would be happening up to the establishment of the Hour’. I said, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! This, by Allah (عزّ وجلّ), it is the knowledge!’. He (asws) said: ‘It is a knowledge, and it isn’t that (knowledge)!’.

He (Abu Baseer) said, ‘I said, ‘May I be sacrificed for you! So which thing is the knowledge?’ He (asws) said: ‘Whatever newly occurs by the night and the day, the matter after the matter, and the thing after the thing, up to the Day of Judgment’.

 Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority

 

Imam Jafar Sadiq (عليه السلام) says,

 

“To Imam (عليه السلام), this whole universe, heavens, and earth is like (then Imam (عليه السلام) pointed towards His palm and said ) this (palm). He has full knowledge of the universe and heavens. Those things that can be seen and those that are hidden. Those which enter into it (born) and those which leave it (die).” 

 

Haqaiqul Wasiyat First Edition 
page no. 181 ref Bihar ul Anwar Seventh Edition,

 

 

And from (the book) ‘Nawadir Al Hikma’ – raising it to Is’haq Al Qummi who said, 

‘Abu Abdullah (asws) said to Humran Bin Ayn: 

‘O Humran! The world, and the skies and the earth(s) in the presence of the Imam (asws) are only like this’ – and he (asws) gestured by his hand to his palm. ‘He (asws) knows it’s apparent, and its hidden, and its interior, and its 
outside, and its wet and its dry’’.

Bihar Al Anwaar – V 25, The book of Imamate, P 3 Ch 13 H 42

 

Extract from Hadeeth e Tariq,

And they (Imams) are speaking on His behalf, and they are only acting by His Command [21:27]. The knowledge of the Prophets (a) is in their knowledge, and secrets of the successors (a) are among their secrets, and honour of the Guardians in among their honour, like the drop is in the ocean, and the particle in the wilderness, and the skies and the earth in the presence of the Imam (asws) are like his hand from his palm.

 

And unbroken chain going up to Salman Al Farsy (عليه السلام) having said, ‘Amir Al-Momineen (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘O Salman! The woe of all woes be unto the one who does not recognise for us the right of our (عليه السلام) recognition, and denies our merits.

 

O Salman! Which of the two is superior, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Suleyman Bin Dawood (عليه السلام)?’ Salman said, ‘But, (it is) Muhammad (saws)’. So he (asws) said: ‘O Salman! This is Asif Bin Barkhiya (عليه السلام) able upon carrying the throne of Bilquees from Sab’a to Persia in the blink of an eye, and with him was (some) knowledge from the Book, and would I (عليه السلام) not be able, and with me (عليه السلام) is the knowledge of a thousand Books?

 

From these, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Revealed unto Shees Bin Adam (عليه السلام) , fifty Parchments, and unto Idrees the Prophet were thirty Parchments, and unto Ibrahim (عليه السلام) the Friend were twenty Parchments, and the knowledge of the Torah, and Knowledge of the Evangel and the Psalms and the Qur'an’.

 

I said, ‘You (عليه السلام) speak the truth, O my Master (عليه السلام)!'

 

So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Know, O Salman, that the doubt in our matter and our knowledge is like the doubters in our  recognition and our rights, and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) he Exalted has Obligated our Wilayah in His (عزّ وجلّ) Book in many a place, and Explained in it what Obligates the deed with it, and it is open (for all to see).

 

And know that there has come the interpretation, clear evidence with regards to this and a clear proof of the superiority of Amir of the Momineen (himself) over the Determined ones (Ul Al Azam) from the Prophets (عليه السلام) , Salawat be upon them asws all. And rather the superiority upon them is due to the knowledge, as per the Words of the Exalted: Say: ‘Are they equal, those who are knowing and those are not knowing?’, and as per the Words of the Exalted:

 

Say: ‘I suffice with Allah as a Witness between me and you [13:43], I.e., present, knowledgeable who knows 
that I (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) am Sent from Him.

 

 

Then He (عزّ وجلّ) Inclined upon Himself, Glorious is He (عزّ وجلّ), so He (عزّ وجلّ)Said:

 

and one with whom is Knowledge of the Book [13:43], I.e., And I suffice with him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) along with Allah (عزّ وجلّ) between me and you all as a witness, due to his knowledge of the Book, and do not make, along with him, as being sufficient, other than him’’

Edited September 2, 2020 by randomly curious

[THREE1THREE]

12 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

By Allah (عزّ وجلّ), I am the clarifying Imam, clarifying the Truth from the Falsehood, having inherited it from Rasool-Allah (saws)’.

al-Hakim recorded that Anas Ibn Malik narrated that the Holy Prophet said to ‘Ali:

“You shall inform my nation about the truth and what they dispute after me":

Sunni reference:

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112, who wrote this is an authentic Hadith according to the stipulation of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim). (This would mean that the chain of narrators are considered to be authentic as stipulated by Bukhari and Muslim)

[313_Waiter]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:05 AM, THREE1THREE said:

al-Hakim recorded that Anas Ibn Malik narrated that the Holy Prophet said to ‘Ali:

“You shall inform my nation about the truth and what they dispute after me":

Sunni reference:

• al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p112, who wrote this is an authentic Hadith according to the stipulation of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim). (This would mean that the chain of narrators are considered to be authentic as stipulated by Bukhari and Muslim)

@randomly curious
 

what about these hadiths that contradict some of the above 

Quote

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

2) Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu'aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed they claim!" Imam (عليه السلام) asked: "And what do they claim?" I said: "They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand."So Imam (عليه السلام) raised his hand towards the sky and said: "Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)."

Quote

الشيخ رشيد الدين محمد بن شهرآشوب المازندراني المتوفى عام 586هـ  يقول في كتابه «متشابه القرآن ومختلفه» (طبع طهران، ج1/ص211) ما نصُّهُ:
«النبيّ والإمام يجب أن يعلما علوم الدين والشريعة ولا يجب أن يعلما الغيب وما كان وما يكون، لأنّ ذلك يؤدّي إلى أنّهما مشاركان للقديم تعالى

Ibn Shahr Ashoob (586 AH) wrote in his book Mutashabih al Qur'an (Volume 1 page 211): "The Prophet and the Imam must have full knowledge of the Islamic laws,but it is not incumbent upon them to have knowledge of ghaib, after all that would then mean that they are partners of Allah".
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235022950-do-the-imams-know-everything/

 

 

[313_Waiter]

Is this ghuluw?

[randomly curious]

8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

@randomly curious
 

what about these hadiths that contradict some of the above 

According to the Infallibles (asws) if a Narration contradicts the Holy Qur'an, then throw it on the wall. And the Narrations you've quoted are crystal clear being contradictory with the verses of the Holy Qur'an. And why the Narrations i posted are authentic? Because Imam (asws) said this,

 

H 33344 – And from Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Abdullah Bin Muhammad, from Ali Ibn Al Hakam, from Aban Bin Usman, from Abdullah Bin Abu Ya’four who said that it was narrated to him from Al Husayn Bin Abu Al A’la, who was present with Ibn Abu Ya’four in this gathering, says:

 

‘I asked Abu Abd Allah (asws) about the differences in Hadith, narrated from one whom we trust and from those whom we do not trust’. Heasws said: ‘If a Hadith is referred to you and you find a witness for it from the Book of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) or from the statements of the Messenger of Allah (saws), then its authentic, otherwise give it back to the one who brought it’.

 

(Wasail ul Shia, H. 33344)

 

The Narrations I've posted are compatible with these verses.

Surely, We Revive the dead, and We Write down whatever they send forward and their impacts, and We have Enumerated all things in a clarifying Imam [36:12]

 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says he has enumerated "all things" in a clarifying Imam (asws) (Masoomeen).

 

And on the Day We will Send into every community a witness upon them from themselves, and We shall Come with you as a witness upon these (witnesses). And We Revealed the Book unto you as a clarification of all things, and Guidance and Mercy and glad tidings for the submitters [16:89]

 

Here, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) clearly says there's clarification of "all things" in the Holy Qur'an. And the Infallibles (asws) have the knowledge of a thousand books which includes the Holy Qur'an.

 

And those who are committing Kufr are saying, ‘He has not been Sent’. Say: ‘I suffice with Allah as a Witness between me and you, and one with whom is Knowledge of the Book [13:43]

 

As for Ilm ul ghaib (Knowledge of the unseen), according to the Narrations Allah (عزّ وجلّ) didn't gave them Knowledge of the unseen to demonstrate the difference between Creator and the creation. But Allah (عزّ وجلّ) revealed it upon them. And according to other Narrations, if the Infallibles (asws) desires to know the unseen, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) lets them know it. They can know whatever they desire to. And according to alot of Narrations from various books, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has revealed upon them Knowledge of the unseen till the establishment of the Hour.

 

For instance read these verses and its tafseer.

 

Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25]

 

(He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26]

 

Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27]

 

For Him to Know that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He Encompasses whatever is with them, and He Counts the number of all things[72:28]

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘Muhammad Bin Hamaam narrated to us from Ja’far Bin Muhammad Bin Malik, from Ja’far Bin Abdullah, from Muhammad Bin Umar, from Abad Bin Saheyb, who has said:

 

‘Ja’far Bin Muhammad (عليه السلام), from his father:

‘They (Quraysh) said, ‘So when will that take place?’ Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Said to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

 

Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25]

 

(He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26]

 

Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27]

 

Meaning Ali (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the Rasool, and he (عليه السلام) is from him (prophet).

 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Said: for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him. 

 

He (عليه السلام) said:

 

‘In his (prophet)'s heart is the Knowledge, and one behind him is the guard who knows his Knowledge, and he (Ali) distributes the Knowledge with a distribution, and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Taught him (عليه السلام) by inspiration.

 

And the guard, is the teacher from the Prophet, For Him to Know [72:28], the Prophet (عليه السلام), that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He – Ali (عليه السلام), Encompasses whatever is with the Rasool from the Knowledge, and He Counts the number of all things [72:28]– whatever has happened since the day Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Created Adam (عليه السلام) up to the Establishment of the Hour – from either a Fitna, or an earthquake, or a submergence, or eruption, or a community destroyed in the past or would be destroyed in the future, and how may tyrannical or just imams there would be. He (عليه السلام) recognises him by his name and his lineage. And whether one would be dying a (natural) death, or killed by a killing, and how many Imams would be abandoned, not being harmed by the abandonment of the one who abandons him (عليه السلام), and how many Imams (عليه السلام) would be helped, not benefitting by the help of the one who helps him (عليه السلام)’’.

 

(تفسير الق ّمي 2 :389 )

8 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Is this ghuluw?

Ghuluw is attributing lordship to Masoomeen (asws).

Edited September 16, 2020 by randomly curious

[313_Waiter]

@randomly curious what do you mean by all things? Does the imam (عليه السلام) know what I’m doing right now? If it is finite knowledge then I don’t see any shirk. But if it is omniscience then it’s shirk.

how does ilm ul ghayb differ from ilm ul kitab.

 

thank you

Edited September 16, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[Follower of Ahlulbayt]

29 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

According to the Infallibles (asws) if a Narration contradicts the Holy Qur'an, then throw it on the wall. And the Narrations you've quoted are crystal clear being contradictory with the verses of the Holy Qur'an. And why the Narrations i posted are authentic? Because Imam (asws) said this,

If we were to be just, then we should not just quote the Qur'anic verses which seem to agree with your position that the Prophet and Imams know all things.

As it is clear from other numerous Qur'anic verses, that the Prophet did not have knowledge in certain matters. For example, quoting from this article:

Quote

One of the opposing evidences used by supporters of this perspective is the following verse in which God addresses the Prophet:

﴿وَمِمَّنۡ حَوۡلَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡأَعۡرَابِ مُنَـٰفِقُونَ‌ۖ وَمِنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡمَدِينَةِ‌ۖ مَرَدُواْ عَلَى ٱلنِّفَاقِ لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ سَنُعَذِّبُہُم مَّرَّتَيۡنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ۬﴾

Among the Bedouin around you there are hypocrites, and among the people of Madinah, who are headstrong in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; We know them and We shall punish them twice. Then they shall be relegated to a great punishment. (9:101)

If the Prophet did not know some of the hypocrites around him, then how could he have knowledge of the entire world, administer the universe and possess complete existential guardianship over it?

Another evidence used is the verse:

﴿قُل لَّآ أَقُولُ لَكُمۡ عِندِى خَزَآٮِٕنُ ٱللَّهِ وَلَآ أَعۡلَمُ ٱلۡغَيۡبَ وَلَآ أَقُولُ لَكُمۡ إِنِّى مَلَكٌ‌ۖ إِنۡ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰٓ إِلَىَّ‌ۚ قُلۡ هَلۡ يَسۡتَوِى ٱلۡأَعۡمَىٰ وَٱلۡبَصِيرُ‌ۚ أَفَلَا تَتَفَكَّرُونَ﴾

Say, “I do not say unto you that with me are the treasuries of God; nor do I know the unseen; nor do I say unto you that I am an angel. I follow only that which is revealed unto me.” Say, “Are the blind and the seer equal? Will you not, then, reflect?” (6:50)

Is this verse compatible with the view that the Ahl al-Bayt have absolute knowledge of the unseen?!

And another evidence is:

﴿قُل لَّآ أَمۡلِكُ لِنَفۡسِى نَفۡعً۬ا وَلَا ضَرًّا إِلَّا مَا شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ‌ۚ وَلَوۡ كُنتُ أَعۡلَمُ ٱلۡغَيۡبَ لَٱسۡتَڪۡثَرۡتُ مِنَ ٱلۡخَيۡرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِىَ ٱلسُّوٓءُ‌ۚ إِنۡ أَنَا۟ إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ۬ وَبَشِيرٌ۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يُؤۡمِنُونَ﴾

Say, “I have no power over what benefit or harm may come to me, save as God wills. Had I knowledge of the unseen, I would have acquired much good, and no evil would have touched me. I am naught save a warner and a bearer of glad tidings unto a people who believe.” (7:188)

In this verse, is there a restriction of independence from God? For the Prophet negates his knowledge of the unseen, with the explanation that if he had known the unseen, he would have acquired much good and no evil would have touched him. Is the Prophet’s lack of being touched by evil dependent on knowledge of the unseen, in a manner independent from God, or does knowledge of the unseen, even if it be dependent on God, achieve this protection also?

Another evidence is:

﴿وَيَـٰقَوۡمِ لَآ أَسۡـَٔلُڪُمۡ عَلَيۡهِ مَالاً‌ۖ إِنۡ أَجۡرِىَ إِلَّا عَلَى ٱللَّهِ‌ۚ وَمَآ أَنَا۟ بِطَارِدِ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ‌ۚ إِنَّهُم مُّلَـٰقُواْ رَبِّہِمۡ وَلَـٰكِنِّىٓ أَرَٮٰكُمۡ قَوۡمً۬ا تَجۡهَلُونَ (٢٩) وَيَـٰقَوۡمِ مَن يَنصُرُنِى مِنَ ٱللَّهِ إِن طَرَدتُّہُمۡ‌ۚ أَفَلَا تَذَڪَّرُونَ (٣٠) وَلَآ أَقُولُ لَكُمۡ عِندِى خَزَآٮِٕنُ ٱللَّهِ وَلَآ أَعۡلَمُ ٱلۡغَيۡبَ وَلَآ أَقُولُ إِنِّى مَلَكٌ۬ وَلَآ أَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ تَزۡدَرِىٓ أَعۡيُنُكُمۡ لَن يُؤۡتِيَہُمُ ٱللَّهُ خَيۡرًا‌ۖ ٱللَّهُ أَعۡلَمُ بِمَا فِىٓ أَنفُسِهِمۡ‌ۖ إِنِّىٓ إِذً۬ا لَّمِنَ ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ﴾

O my people! I ask not of you any wealth in return for it; my reward lies only with God. And I shall not drive away those who believe; truly they shall meet their Lord. But I see that you are an ignorant people. (29) O my people! Who would help me against God, were I to drive them away? Will you not remember? (30) I say not unto you that with me are the treasuries of God; nor do I know the Unseen. And I say not that I am an angel; nor do I say of those who are despicable in your eyes, ‘God will not give them any good’—God knows best what is in their souls—for then I would indeed be among the wrongdoers. (31) (11:29-31)

Is this language from Prophet Noah (peace be upon him) consistent with someone who has existential guardianship upon the world as well as absolute knowledge?

And the following verse:

﴿قُلۡ مَا كُنتُ بِدۡعً۬ا مِّنَ ٱلرُّسُلِ وَمَآ أَدۡرِى مَا يُفۡعَلُ بِى وَلَا بِكُمۡ‌ۖ إِنۡ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰٓ إِلَىَّ وَمَآ أَنَا۟ إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ۬ مُّبِينٌ۬ (٩) قُلۡ أَرَءَيۡتُمۡ إِن كَانَ مِنۡ عِندِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَفَرۡتُم بِهِۦ وَشَہِدَ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۢ بَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ عَلَىٰ مِثۡلِهِۦ فَـَٔامَنَ وَٱسۡتَكۡبَرۡتُمۡ‌ۖ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يَہۡدِى ٱلۡقَوۡمَ ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ﴾

Say, “I am no innovation among the messengers, and I know not what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which has been revealed unto me, and I am naught but a clear warner.” (9) Say, “Have you considered if it is from God and you disbelieve in it, though a witness from the Children of Israel bore witness to the like thereof, then believed in it, while you waxed arrogant? Surely God guides not wrongdoing people.” (10) (46:9-10)

Is this type of discourse consistent with someone who knows all the knowledge of the unseen? Rather, the Prophet (upon him and his household be peace) claims here that he is no different to the rest of the messengers, that he is nothing but a warner and a bearer of glad tidings and that he does not have knowledge of what will occur. So how can we say that he has knowledge of destiny and fate, of calamities and affliction, of what is and of what will be, until the Day of Judgement? Are these concepts consistent with the spirit of these noble verses?!

And God, the Exalted, said:

﴿تِلۡكَ مِنۡ أَنۢبَآءِ ٱلۡغَيۡبِ نُوحِيہَآ إِلَيۡكَ‌ۖ مَا كُنتَ تَعۡلَمُهَآ أَنتَ وَلَا قَوۡمُكَ مِن قَبۡلِ هَـٰذَا‌ۖ فَٱصۡبِرۡ‌ۖ إِنَّ ٱلۡعَـٰقِبَةَ لِلۡمُتَّقِينَ﴾

These are among the accounts of the Unseen that We reveal unto thee. Thou knewest not of them, neither thou nor thy people, beforehand. So be patient. Truly the end belongs to the reverent. (11:49)

 

[Abu Nur]

Quote

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘O Mufazzal, know that they (عليه السلام) knew what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Mighty and Majestic has Created, and it creation, and they (عليه السلام) are the Pious Words, and the treasurers of the skies and the firmaments, and the mountains, and the sands, and the oceans, and they (عليه السلام) knew the stars in the sky, and Angels, and the weight of the mountains, and depth of the water of the oceans, and rivers, and springs, and not a single leaf fell down except that they had its knowledge, there was no seed in the darkness of the earth, and nothing wet, and nothing dry except that it is in a clear Book, and that was in their (عليه السلام) knowledge, and they knew that.’

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

2) Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu'aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed they claim!" Imam (عليه السلام) asked: "And what do they claim?" I said: "They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand."So Imam (عليه السلام) raised his hand towards the sky and said: "Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)."

- And that's how you recognize what is Ghulat narration and what is not. Because these hadiths are found in our books, and layman people can easily believe in them, so I don't find any surprise if some Shia believe in ghulat narration. 

[Abu Nur]

Quote

Ghuluw is attributing lordship to Masoomeen (asws).

Not necessary, it also means those who hold beliefs deemed deviant by mainstream, orthodox Shi'a theology. If the Imams (عليه السلام) says we don't know every single leaf that fell down, and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows, then a Ghali comes and say Imams (عليه السلام) knows every single leaf that fell down, then they are attributing this knowing to Imams (عليه السلام) when it is only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who have such a Knowledge.

[Cool]

25 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If the Imams (عليه السلام) says we don't know every single leaf that fell down, and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows, then a Ghali comes and say Imams (عليه السلام) knows every single leaf that fell down

What if Allah says that He has written "everything" in the clear book (Kitabin Mubeen), and He says the we have recorded "everything" in Imamin Mubeen & Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mention to sahaba by pointing finger towards Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that look this is the Imamin Mubeen?  

Fact is that my brother, and it really is the fact that we are totally ignorant. We are nothing to talk about the knowledge of "Madinatul ilm" and "Bab e Madinatul ilm". We have just heard the voice of "Salooni Salooni" from our Imam which is a Murtaza & Mujtaba Abd of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). When He taught some one/ grant some one "ilmun min al-kitab" (knowledge from book), that person start doing miracles by bringing the throne of queen with the twinkle of an eye. Far above than him would be the person who possess "knowledge of book" (ilmul kitab).

I know my Imam as sahib e minber e salooni. How much he know, I have no idea. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Cool

[Abu_Zahra]

The aimmah (عليه السلام) have addressed this in various narrations. Sheikh Ibrahim Amini has cited a few of them in his work on Imamate:

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-2-ahlul-bayt-quran-and-traditions#two-devious-beliefs

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Mahdavist

[Abu Nur]

7 hours ago, Cool said:

What if Allah says that He has written "everything" in the clear book (Kitabin Mubeen), and He says the we have recorded "everything" in Imamin Mubeen & Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mention to sahaba by pointing finger towards Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that look this is the Imamin Mubeen?  

There is a different groups with different interpretation. The thing is that the Imams (عليه السلام) do have comprehensive knowledge and even access to any knowledge they wish to know. The narration that I quoted is Sahih, and we can not deny it. It actually tells you that such a knowledge is only with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He is the one who knows all the leaf that drops, because how human being can handle to know such a knowledge in his mind?

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It actually tells you that such a knowledge is only with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He is the one who knows all the leaf that drops, because how human being can handle to know such a knowledge in his mind?

True, but the hadith never said that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never discloses His knowledge to anyone. Can Imam know through Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the weight of the mountains, and depth of the water of the oceans, and rivers, and springs, and every single leaf fell down etc? I think yes.

So problem here is to believe that Imams have any sort of knowledge independent of Allah. This sort of belief is a sin & is called ghalat otherwise denying the comprehensive knowledge of Imams given to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would come under the clause of taqseer. 

Quote

A muqassir person is the one who denies the Prophet (S)’s or the Imams’ ((عليه السلام).) comprehensive knowledge, is doubtful about their infallibility of mistakes, sins, or forgetfulness, knows them fallible like other humans, or attributes a wrongdoing to them.

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-2-ahlul-bayt-quran-and-traditions#two-devious-beliefs

 

[ShiaMan14]

@313_Waiter,

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) know more than us but less than Allah.

No one can quantify how much they know but that is not ghuluw. It would only be ghuluw if someone says they know as much as Allah which no one says.

As for ilm-e-ghaib, there is no such thing when it comes to Allah. He knows everything so nothing is hidden from Him. Out of his knowledge, He chose to give some to most and most to some.

[313_Waiter]

10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

but less than Allah.

Thank you. How much less than Allah do they know?

I have heard that it’s only 1 out of 73 parts of ilm ul kitab or something. Which does not make sense to me.

[313_Waiter]

14 hours ago, Cool said:

True, but the hadith never said that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never discloses His knowledge to anyone. Can Imam know through Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the weight of the mountains, and depth of the water of the oceans, and rivers, and springs, and every single leaf fell down etc? I think yes.

What do you mean by “through”? Did they have it in their memory or was the knowledge given to them when the situation arised?

If it isn’t omniscience I don’t see any shirk...

Edited September 17, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[ShiaMan14]

5 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Thank you. How much less than Allah do they know?

I have heard that it’s only 1 out of 73 parts of ilm ul kitab or something. Which does not make sense to me.

Does it really matter? Having less knowledge than Allah is all that matters. If I said the only thing the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) dont know is the Day of Judgement, will that change anything?

[313_Waiter]

26 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Does it really matter? Having less knowledge than Allah is all that matters. If I said the only thing the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) dont know is the Day of Judgement, will that change anything?

Yes, well I think so, but maybe you can correct me. God is Greater than can be conceived, divinely transcendent as per tanzih while creation is limited and dependent.

I think if we say there is only one thing that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn’t know but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows it may equate to a deification of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

[ShiaMan14]

7 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Yes, well I think so, but maybe you can correct me. God is Greater than can be conceived, divinely transcendent as per tanzih while creation is limited and dependent.

I think if we say there is only one thing that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn’t know but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows it may equate to a deification of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

How so? There is full acknowledgement that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) knows less than Allah. More importantly, whereas Allah's knowledge is inherent to Allah, the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) knowledge is what Allah has chosen to disclose to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

To put it another way, Allah's innate knowledge is not the same as the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) learned knowledge.

Where's the deification?

[Cool]

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

What do you mean by “through”?

وَعَلَّمَهُ مِمَّا يَشَاء

2:251) and taught him of what He pleased

This is the case of Prophet Dawood (عليه السلام)

 نَبَّأْتُكُمَا بِتَأْوِيلِهِ قَبْلَ أَن يَأْتِيكُمَا ذَلِكُمَا مِمَّا عَلَّمَنِي رَبِّي

12:37) but I will inform you both of its interpretation before it comes to you; this is of what my Lord has taught me

This is the case of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام)

عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَى

53:5) The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him

This is the case of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

Did they have it in their memory or was the knowledge given to them when the situation arised?

Both are the cases, they have it in their memory which will remain there subject to the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they can access to it whenever situation arises. 

عَلَّمَ الْإِنسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ

96:5) Taught man what he knew not.

I don't know the sphere of "ma lam ya'lam". How much a man is capable to know? Whatever the limit is, it has been taught to him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Lets take the example of a "servant of Allah" (Khizr (عليه السلام)):

 

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا

18:65) Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.

Read this whole story to the verse 81 and you will be surprised by the words of Khizr (عليه السلام):

رَحْمَةً مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۚ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي

18:81) a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord.

He did the hole in the boat:

فَأَرَدْتُ أَنْ أَعِيبَهَا 

and I wished that I should damage it.

Then He killed the boy:

فَأَرَدْنَا أَنْ يُبْدِلَهُمَا رَبُّهُمَا خَيْرًا مِنْهُ زَكَاةً وَأَقْرَبَ رُحْمًا

So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.

These clear verses further explains the verses of Sura e Dahr:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

يُدْخِلُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۚ وَالظَّالِمِينَ أَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا

76:30-31

[Abu Nur]

Quote

True, but the hadith never said that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never discloses His knowledge to anyone. Can Imam know through Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the weight of the mountains, and depth of the water of the oceans, and rivers, and springs, and every single leaf fell down etc? I think yes.

Really? Sharing the knowledge means that by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Will, he gives to whomever He wish, it is always with limit. That's fine, I'm not talking about. What I'm amazed are the Quranic verses, they always portrait the lack of knowledge of Prophet and the infinite knowledge of Allah. The leaf verse is amazing and it is attributed to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) of how He knows every single detail at same time, but how in the world this make any sense to attribute to Imam that he knows every single movement of the leafs of earth? What human capacity can handle so much knowledge at same time?

I'm not limiting Imams (عليه السلام) knowledge. And I do believe that they can ask for whatever God allows to ask about and they receive the knowledge. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Abu Nur

[313_Waiter]

5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

but how in the world this make any sense to attribute to Imam that he knows every single movement of the leafs of earth?

Yes plus the amount of rainfall is changing and the leaves‘ position is changing every moment.

Also this knowledge does not really benefit the Imam (a,s).

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

I think we are confused between narrations in refutation of Ghalis, and in refutation of Muqasirs.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
spelling mistake

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 9/16/2020 at 5:09 AM, Abu Nur said:

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

2) Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu'aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed they claim!" Imam (عليه السلام) asked: "And what do they claim?" I said: "They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand."So Imam (عليه السلام) raised his hand towards the sky and said: "Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)."

- And that's how you recognize what is Ghulat narration and what is not. Because these hadiths are found in our books, and layman people can easily believe in them, so I don't find any surprise if some Shia believe in ghulat narration. 

[27:75] And there is nothing concealed in the sky and the earth but it is in a Clarifying Book..

You need to look at Quran. Matching narration with Quran is more important than evaluating chains.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

 

In Authentic hadith, Whenever imam (عليه السلام) desires to know anything, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lets Imam (عليه السلام) know it.

So Knowledge of Ghaib is what Imam (عليه السلام) can access at will, but indeed Imams (عليه السلام) depends upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for that.

And @Abu Nur these hadiths show finite knowledge of Imams (عليه السلام) and that Imams (عليه السلام) depend upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for everything and Infinite Knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that Allah doesn't depend upon anyone and Allah gives Imams (عليه السلام) knowledge so this by no means is ghuluw and is in accordance with verses that you indirectly mentioned.

[Abu Nur]

Yes, I did mentioned before that brother, i agree on the narration where they can ask when they desire.

My concern is this:

Quote

What I'm amazed are the Quranic verses, they always portrait the lack of knowledge of Prophet and the infinite knowledge of Allah. The leaf verse is amazing and it is attributed to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) of how He knows every single detail at same time, but how in the world this make any sense to attribute to Imam that he knows every single movement of the leafs of earth? What human capacity can handle so much knowledge at same time?

 

[Cool]

On 9/18/2020 at 1:41 AM, Abu Nur said:

I'm not limiting Imams (عليه السلام) knowledge. And I do believe that they can ask for whatever God allows to ask about and they receive the knowledge. 

Salam!

What I am viewing brother is the fact that if knowledge of everything is in the protected or manifest book, this embodiment of knowledge means it is something finite. Because any book has a beginning and an end.

We know God's knowledge as infinite. So there must be, much infinitely more, with God than the knowledge of everything and that includes the knowledge of divine essence, knowledge of the hour etc. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 minutes ago, Cool said:

this embodiment of knowledge means it is something finite. Because any book has a beginning and an end.

Salam it's not an ordinary book which we can say knowledge within it is whether finite or infinite although physically is a book but on the other hand it's word of Allah which only infallible Imams (عليه السلام) have full knowledge of it which nobody else can claim that has access to full knowledge of it so therefore talking about being finite or infinite is irrelevant which best thing according to Imam Reza (عليه السلام) is that know it word of Allah & try to follow it but refrain other assumptions about it  likewise being finite or infinite or old or  a creation . 

[Cool]

21 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's not an ordinary book which we can say knowledge within it is whether finite or infinite although physically is a book but on the other hand it's word of Allah which only infallible Imams (عليه السلام) have full knowledge of it which nobody else can claim that has access to full knowledge of it so therefore talking about being finite or infinite is irrelevant

Salam Brother!

I don't think you are speaking anything different either. I am only viewing Imams as "book" (كتاب مبين)

و انه في ام الكتب لدينا لعلي الحكيم

and that's why I have mentioned the book as finite because no book can ever "contain" knowledge of divine essence.

The "containment" means finiteness, that's why there are verses in Quran commanding Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) "qul Rabbi zidni ilma". 

[Ashvazdanghe]

46 minutes ago, Cool said:

if knowledge of everything is in the protected or manifest book, this embodiment of knowledge means it is something finite. Because any book has a beginning and an end.

Salam your idea is against saying of commander of faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) about holy Quran

Certainly the outside of the Qur’an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its intricacies cannot be cleared except through itself.

وَإِنَّ القُرآنَ ظَاهِرُهُ أَنِيقٌ وَبَاطِنُهُ عَمِيقٌ، لاَ تَفْنَى عَجَائِبُهُ، وَلاَتَنْقَضِي غَرَائِبُهُ، وَلاَ تُكْشَفُ الظُّلُمَاتُ إلاَّ بِهِ.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-18-when-problem-put

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

The "containment" means finiteness, that's why there are verses in Quran commanding Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) "qul Rabbi zidni ilma". 

This is comparing apples with oranges which both of real content of holy Quran & divine knowledge of prophet Muhammad(pbu) are not measurable by our understanding & standards although knowledge of Allah always more than prophet Muhammad (pbu) so therefore Allah always can increase knowledge of prophet Muhammad (pbu) toward his infinite knowledege . 

[Cool]

Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam your idea is against saying of commander of faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Its not my idea my brother!

Who is "Imamin Mubeen" of verse 12 of Yasin? 

و كل شيء احصيناه في امام مبين

So if knowledge of everything has been present in Imamin Mubeen, what & who Imamin Mubeen is? Something infinite? 

3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

وَإِنَّ القُرآنَ ظَاهِرُهُ أَنِيقٌ وَبَاطِنُهُ عَمِيقٌ

Yes, the انيق as well as عميق has limits. Do we have knowledge of the hour in Quran? Do we have knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His essence in Quran? 

 

[Cool]

5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

real content of holy Quran & divine knowledge of prophet Muhammad(pbu) are not measurable by our understanding & standards

Brother, Prophet's knowledge is something limited, something that has a beginning. Divine knowledge i.e., Allah's knowledge is not limited, it has no beginning & no end. And that's why creation, because of its finiteness/limited-ness, cannot hold/bear the divine knowledge. 

I don't know what is making my comment difficult that you are not understanding it!

Now since Prophet's knowledge, in itself, is what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taught him, I am considering it as limited. I am not setting any idea any unit for its limit-ness. He is Madinatul ilm, I am not setting any boundaries of that madinah.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Cool