Does Imam Ali have knowledge of all things except creation?

[In Gods Name]

2 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother!

I don't think you are speaking anything different either. I am only viewing Imams as "book" (كتاب مبين)

و انه في ام الكتب لدينا لعلي الحكيم

and that's why I have mentioned the book as finite because no book can ever "contain" knowledge of divine essence.

The "containment" means finiteness, that's why there are verses in Quran commanding Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) "qul Rabbi zidni ilma". 

[In Gods Name]

[Ashvazdanghe]

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Yes, the انيق as well as عميق has limits. Do we have knowledge of the hour in Quran? Do we have knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His essence in Quran? 

it depends on level of your knowledge do your knowledge equivalent to knowledge of infallible Imam which you can say how determine boundaries of knowledge inside  holy Quran !!!?

[In Gods Name]

Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

it depends on level of your knowledge do your knowledge equivalent to knowledge of infallible Imam which you can say how determine boundaries of knowledge inside  holy Quran !!!?

According to Shaykh Tusi, who is regarded as our greatest classical scholar and who has such a high position, Sayed Khui' refers to him as merely 'The Shaykh' instead of naming him, we do not regard it necessary for Imams to have knowledge beyond shariah. They do not know all is to happen etc...and if they happen to know something, it's what was passed down from the Messenger of Allah. I don't even think they knew exactly how they were going to die.

[In Gods Name]

[Cool]

1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it depends on level of your knowledge do your knowledge equivalent to knowledge of infallible Imam which you can say how determine boundaries of knowledge inside  holy Quran !!!?

My dear brother! 

I am sorry if I am unable to explain you my point. 

Please consider me an ignorant and don't compare me and my knowledge with Imams. I only know that I know nothing. 

I only consider Imams as nitiq Quran and not something else. I consider Imams as creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that's why I am using the words like "finite-ness" & "limited-ness". 

While Quran has explicitly stated that the knowledge of everything has been enveloped in "Imamin Mubeen" and I have seen the hadith where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has introduced Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Imamin Mubeen, therefore I am considering the finite-ness. 

Allah's knowledge is not limited, not even limited to Lauhin Mehfooz, not even limited to Kitabin Mubeen, not even limited to Ummil Kitab. 

[In Gods Name]

There are some Shias who believe the Imams have knowledge of all is to happen apart from the day of judgement. They hold that the Imams are masters of all the sciences, they know every little tiny bit of what everyone is doing, including a random tiny dustmite in the middle of the siberian mountains.

The Imams cursed these people, they did not appreciate their ghuluw , and their exaggerating did not make the Imams feel they loved them more. 

Verily, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed knowledge down to his ahlulbayt over restricted matters. The Ahlulbayt of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are pious scholars, imams of the Ummah after him, who hold fast to his sunnah and preserve it, as his Ahlulbayt, the second of the Thaqalyn.

They are not these demi-Gods that know all, grant prayers, nor is there any evidence God made them before the universe or made the universe for them. Rather, they are non-prophets, who we believe Allah gave hikmah, wisdom and the ability to keep away from sin as they saw sin and evil in its true nature. But they could make mistakes when it came to biology, they could err if they tried to guess what someone was thinking because they did not read peoples minds. They were Ma'asum from sin, and from errors in Shariah. 

[In Gods Name]

Be very careful of people who come to you without proof, who try to make this all wish-washy, sufi, and 'esoteric' who give you vauge unconnected verses of the Quran and them make enormous leaps of logic using intellectual gymnastics.

Follow those who bring clear cut evidence. Follow the clear in the Quran and the Sunnah.

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Follow the clear in the Quran and the Sunnah.

Follow the clear in Quran and the Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) .

[Cool]

There infact are some shias who don't ponder over the verses of Quran. 

What is meant by being witness over people?

هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ

22:78) He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; 

How much is the knowledge of Imam, if Imam (عليه السلام) is the witness over people? 

Can any ignorant claim what has been claimed by the Imams by saying "salooni salooni"? So people used to ask from him the names of their fathers lol. Some have asked the scientific questions too. Some have asked the philosophical questions. Some have asked the religious questions. All have received the answers. 

Although, I am using the words like finite & limited here (that is only because of them being divine creation only), but I have no idea of the vastness and depth-ness of their knowledge. 

 

 

[In Gods Name]

Did you see it brothers and sisters?

I brought clear evidence from the scholars, clear ahadith from the Ahlulbayt.

In response, vauge verses, an appeal to the 'esoteric' sufi style meaning, and linguistic and mental gymnastics.

Follow the clear.

Keep away from people who throw you on a path of the unclear when your own soul isn't happy.

[Cool]

19 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

In response, vauge verses, an appeal to the 'esoteric' sufi style meaning, and linguistic and mental gymnastics.

I wish you ever tried to see how Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام have interpreted these type of verses. 

[Cool]

Who are the witness appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? What is meant by الشهادة here? This is an oft repeating phrase not only present in al-Hajj but also present in al-Baqarah

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ 

2:143) And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you

In Chapter 4:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاء وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـئِكَ رَفِيقًا

4:69) And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

In chapter 39:

وَأَشْرَقَتِ الْأَرْضُ بِنُورِ رَبِّهَا وَوُضِعَ الْكِتَابُ وَجِيءَ بِالنَّبِيِّينَ وَالشُّهَدَاء وَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُم بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ لَا يُظْلَمُونَ

39:69) And the earth shall beam with the light of its Lord, and the Book shall be laid down, and the prophets and the witnesses shall be brought up, and judgment shall be given between them with justice, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly

In chapter 57:

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الصِّدِّيقُونَ وَالشُّهَدَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ وَنُورُهُمْ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَكَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا أُوْلَئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ

57:19) And (as for) those who believe in Allah and His messengers, these it is that are the truthful and the "shuhada" in the sight of their Lord: they shall have their reward and their light, and (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the inmates of the hell.

Who are these "believers" who are the truthful ones and the shuhada in the sight of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

And why He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded this:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

9:119) O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

Nothing is vague here. We know very well who the truthful ones and who the divinely appointed witnesses are! 

وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ

7:46) and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks

We know very well who these "rijaal" are!

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Follow the clear in Quran and the Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) .

Follow the clear in the Quran and the Sunnah (even the Ahlulbayt have said, it is only the Quran and the Sunnah which is the ultimate authority, this is in the Quran too).

However, the Sunnah is what has been preserved and narrated by the Ahlulbayt and the pious of the sahaba.

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Who are the witness appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? What is meant by الشهادة here? This is an oft repeating phrase not only present in al-Hajj but also present in al-Baqarah

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ 

2:143) And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you

In Chapter 4:

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاء وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَـئِكَ رَفِيقًا

4:69) And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

In chapter 39:

وَأَشْرَقَتِ الْأَرْضُ بِنُورِ رَبِّهَا وَوُضِعَ الْكِتَابُ وَجِيءَ بِالنَّبِيِّينَ وَالشُّهَدَاء وَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُم بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ لَا يُظْلَمُونَ

39:69) And the earth shall beam with the light of its Lord, and the Book shall be laid down, and the prophets and the witnesses shall be brought up, and judgment shall be given between them with justice, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly

In chapter 57:

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الصِّدِّيقُونَ وَالشُّهَدَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ وَنُورُهُمْ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَكَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا أُوْلَئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ

57:19) And (as for) those who believe in Allah and His messengers, these it is that are the truthful and the "shuhada" in the sight of their Lord: they shall have their reward and their light, and (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the inmates of the hell.

Who are these "believers" who are the truthful ones and the shuhada in the sight of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

And why He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded this:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

9:119) O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

Nothing is vague here. We know very well who the truthful ones and who the divinely appointed witnesses are! 

وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ

7:46) and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks

We know very well who these "rijaal" are!

This has nothing to do with the Ghulat belief that the Imams know all there is to know apart from the date of the day of judgement etc

[Cool]

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

This has nothing to do with the Ghulat belief that the Imams know all there is to know apart from the date of the day of judgement etc

Your earlier comment tells something else;

3 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

I brought clear evidence from the scholars, clear ahadith from the Ahlulbayt.

In response, vauge verses, an appeal to the 'esoteric' sufi style meaning, and linguistic and mental gymnastics.

See if any hadith of Imam (عليه السلام) is colliding with the verses of Quran, colliding with their status as witness over people, colliding with their status as "people have knowledge of the book", I can easily discard such ahadith and this would be in accordance with the principle we have with us of verifying a hadith. 

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Your earlier comment tells something else;

See if any hadith of Imam (عليه السلام) is colliding with the verses of Quran, colliding with their status as witness over people, colliding with their status as "people have knowledge of the book", I can easily discard such ahadith and this would be in accordance with the principle we have with us of verifying a hadith. 

Not exactly because you're not actually verifying them against the Qur'an but rather with other narrations. This isn't an issue in itself, but the principle you are referring to is not actually the one you are using to deny these ahadith.

[Abu Nur]

10 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Be very careful of people who come to you without proof, who try to make this all wish-washy, sufi, and 'esoteric' who give you vauge unconnected verses of the Quran and them make enormous leaps of logic using intellectual gymnastics.

Follow those who bring clear cut evidence. Follow the clear in the Quran and the Sunnah.

Mysticsim have nothing to do with this. People get easily argument between philosophy and mysticism when both have different methods to understand reality. This is why those who study religion and philosophy will easily look down upon Mysticsim and make it sound it is sufi thing. 

[Ibn Tayyar]

14 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Brother, you are engaging in tadlees of the words of Al-Mufid (rah), and cutting what you wish to cut.

If you read the full passage, the Shaykh (rah) says that the consensus is that the Imams (عليه السلام) know the ahkam (rulings) of what is coming, not that they know in detail all of what is coming.

However he also adds that there is no issue with the Imams (عليه السلام) knowing what is to come if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives them that knowledge, and then he proceeds to answer the question of the questioner where he explains how and why the Imams (عليه السلام) did what they did despite them having knowledge of what will transpire such as in the case of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

The Shaykh (rah) did not deny that they don't have knowledge of the future, he is saying that it is not general and that they know simply what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has allowed them to know, and in the case of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) he seemingly affirms that the Imam (عليه السلام) knew he will be killed and knew who his killer is, and so on.

Basically, what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to them then that is what they know.

[Cool]

7 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

you're not actually verifying them against the Qur'an but rather with other narrations

I think this is not the case. Quran has not only mentioned the sadiqeen but also have introduced them clearly. For instance, 

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الصِّدِّيقُونَ ۖ وَالشُّهَدَاءُ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ وَنُورُهُمْ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَكَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ {19}

[Shakir 57:19] And (as for) those who believe in Allah and His messengers, these it is that are the truthful and the faithful ones in the sight of their Lord: they shall have their reward and their light, and (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the inmates of the hell.

According to the above verse, it is clear that the truthful one are the witnesses in the sight of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Then the divine command:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ {119}

[Shakir 9:119] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

Then the truthful ones introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

I don't need to mention who are the truthful ones in above verse as the whole muslim ummah recognize them!

[Abu_Zahra]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

I think this is not the case. Quran has not only mentioned the sadiqeen but also have introduced them clearly. For instance, 

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الصِّدِّيقُونَ ۖ وَالشُّهَدَاءُ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ وَنُورُهُمْ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَكَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا أُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ {19}

[Shakir 57:19] And (as for) those who believe in Allah and His messengers, these it is that are the truthful and the faithful ones in the sight of their Lord: they shall have their reward and their light, and (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the inmates of the hell.

According to the above verse, it is clear that the truthful one are the witnesses in the sight of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Then the divine command:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ {119}

[Shakir 9:119] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

Then the truthful ones introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

I don't need to mention who are the truthful ones in above verse as the whole muslim ummah recognize them!

None of these verses contradicts the ahadith you are rejecting.

Like I mentioned, it is up to you if you want to reject them but claiming that they contradict the Qur'an is inaccurate 

Fee amanillah

[In Gods Name]

8 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Brother, you are engaging in tadlees of the words of Al-Mufid (rah), and cutting what you wish to cut.

If you read the full passage, the Shaykh (rah) says that the consensus is that the Imams (عليه السلام) know the ahkam (rulings) of what is coming, not that they know in detail all of what is coming.

However he also adds that there is no issue with the Imams (عليه السلام) knowing what is to come if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives them that knowledge, and then he proceeds to answer the question of the questioner where he explains how and why the Imams (عليه السلام) did what they did despite them having knowledge of what will transpire such as in the case of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

The Shaykh (rah) did not deny that they don't have knowledge of the future, he is saying that it is not general and that they know simply what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has allowed them to know, and in the case of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) he seemingly affirms that the Imam (عليه السلام) knew he will be killed and knew who his killer is, and so on.

Basically, what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to them then that is what they know.

Salam brother.

I will also cite @Abu Nur

I hope you're doing well.

I didn't make any Tadlees whatsoever over what Shaykh Mufeed said.

Rather, the claim among some Shias today is, that the Imams know all there is to know, except the day of judgement. They know every loyal shia, they know all of what their Shias do, they know pretty much eveything.

I never denied the Imams have some knowledge of certain events that can come to pass, which is an inheritance from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I never denied Allah can bless them with restricted knowledge of the future. 

For example, some of the Imams , such as Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) inherited knowledge from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as to where he would die. But he did not necessarily know who would strike whom, which companions would die first, what they would say, etc in explicit detail. it's possible, but not necessary and he may well not have had that detailed knowledge, but the basics of what would happen in restricted context , yes perhaps.

Shaykh Mufeed was asked - how come the Imam did not vet some of his followers, given some of them were Munafiqoon and would spread erroneous things? Some modern day Shias would say, the Imams knew every hypocrite, they knew all of what the hypocrites spoke of, they could read the minds of every person on earth at the time, present or absent.

However, Shaykh Mufeed, Shaykh Tusi, and Shaykh Saduq almost build an Ijma here between them - the Imams did not know who the hypocrites were in totality, they often relied on what was reported to them and they often made judgement calls based on that. 

In terms of the Imams being given any knowledge they liked - this is dependent on if Allah willed for them to have that knowledge. They only had restricted information inherited from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). If Allah willed for them and accepted for them further knowledge , then this was dependent on if Allah had wanted them to know it.

Musa (عليه السلام) was not given knowledge , but Khidr was , a test for Musa (عليه السلام). 

<<>>

There is this notion among modern Shias --> Imams knew everything apart from the day of judgement. They know the thoughts, prayers, feelings of everyone at all times. They know every science. They know what each star is doing in every galaxy in the entire universe.  This is clear cut ghuluw, and the Imams have cursed people who say about them, what they did not say about themselves.

Apart from restricted knowledge which is an inheritance from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), as Shaykh Tusi perfectly put it, it is not necessary for the Imam to have knowledge outside of the Shariah.

[In Gods Name]

The Imams according to ahadith and the views of the scholars did not necessarily know what was going to happen in the next hour, let alone the next day. Their knowledge of future events was an inheritance from the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and very restricted. The Imams did not know who the munafiqoon were around them and did not have mind reading abilities and anyone who claims they had every single bit of knowledge of the unseen except when the day of judgement is, is in clear cut ghluw.

The Imams did not necessarily know evolutionary molecular biology, nor should we expect them to know how to program in Java, C++, or Python. If they were to indulge in these areas, they would likely need a teacher, and maybe like every student, make mistake in coding etc 

They ate, slept, defacated, laughed, loved. Some of the time they suffered from comment ailments. They enjoyed intercourse with their wives, and even bondswoman. Some of the time, they were not even aware of why their wives were unhappy with them.

Muhammed [saw] was not aware that Aisha and Hafsa were trying to cause him disunity with another one of his wives. He was not aware Allah was going to reprimand him to not deny himself what was halal. He often was not even aware of who the Munafiqoon were around him, and Allah at times, did not agree to give him this knowledge. He also was participating in a test.

However, in terms of the Shariah, and in terms of committing sins, the Prophet [saw] and his ale were M'asuum. However the ale of Muhammed were inferior in piety, wisdom, closeness to Allah (although they had high levels of it, and like all of us, were being tested and grew)  , etc, nobody could match the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

[In Gods Name]

[In Gods Name]

[In Gods Name]

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

None of these verses contradicts the ahadith you are rejecting.

First of all, I haven't "rejected" any hadith till yet. I only said "I can reject". 

Secondly, you are not focusing at the الشهادة? how can anyone ignorant be a witness? And how a person become a witness over people? We are talking about knowledge, so why you people ran away when these clear meanings from the verses of Quran came before you? 

[Cool]

40 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

some Shias today is, that the Imams know all there is to know

Read Quran and see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said:

عَلَّمَ الْإِنسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ

96:5 taught man what he did not know! 

What is the sphere of this لم يعلم and how much should we consider the sphere of عَلَّمَ ? 

It is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has taught the Quran, then created the Insaan according to Sura e Rehman. 

 

[In Gods Name]

8 minutes ago, Cool said:

Read Quran and see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said:

عَلَّمَ الْإِنسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ

96:5 taught man what he did not know! 

What is the sphere of this لم يعلم and how much should we consider the sphere of عَلَّمَ ? 

It is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has taught the Quran, then created the Insaan according to Sura e Rehman. 

 

Salam brother,

Again, you are using verses that are vague and then completely making leaps, esoteric interpretations without evidence, and linguistic and theological gymnastics. 

The Imams didn't know where tomorrow's food would come from. They didn't know who the hypocrites around them were. They had limited knowledge of future events which was an inheritance of the Messenger of Allah, but their knowledge did not need to encompass beyond the shariah. They did not have to have knowledge of how to code python, Java etc and probably would make mistakes if they learned to code like any other person.

[In Gods Name]

All from: https://shiiticstudies.com/2020/10/06/the-worldview-of-the-ghulat-pt-i/

The Imam would not have had sexual intercourse has he known a particular child would be born:

 

Anbasa b. Mus’ab informs Imam al-Sadiq that Abu al-Khattab was reporting that he (the Imam) had affirmed possessing knowledge of the Ghayb to him.

The Imam replied:

As for his saying that I said that I know the Ghayb (Unseen) then by Allah – the One whom there is no God but Him – I do not know the Ghayb (Unseen). May Allah not reward me by my dead nor bless me in my living if I had said that to him.

Anbasa comments:

And in front of him (i.e. the Imam) was a small black girl just beginning to walk

The Imam looks at her and says:

There was from me to the mother of this one like the tracing of the pen (i.e. slight sexual contact) but this one issued to me, so if I knew the Ghayb she would not issue to me! (i.e. the Imam would not have had intercourse with the mother if he knew that the union would result in a child).

The Imam cites another example of his lack of knowledge of future outcomes:

I also divided up with Abdallah b. al-Hasan a farm-land between me and him, so he got the even land and water (for well), while I ended up with a hilly tract, so If I knew the Ghayb then I would have acquired the even land and the water and he would have got the hilly tract!

Rijal al-Kashshi: No. 515

 

The Imam had slight sexual intercourse, and he was a bit upset because had he known he would have this girl he would not have engaged in this. 

The pious imam also states, he had done a business deal but got the short end because he didn't know what was where. 

 

<>

 

These men were pious scholars among the ahlulbayt, Imams chosen, not-demi Gods

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

They did not have to have knowledge of how to code python, Java etc and probably would make mistakes if they learned to code like any other person.

Salam if they have been present in our era so then they would know all of it better than anyone which they wouldn't make any mistake because they have had full knowledge of it in similar fashion which in their era they have had full knowledge about knowledge of their time which your assumption just leads to accusing them to being ignorant who need to receive education from people who have lower knowledge than them which if you take your religion from an Imam which there is another more knowledgeable person than him means that you have followed wrong Imam & became astray which about hypocrites prophet Muhammad (pbu) & infallible Imams have known them completely which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has introduced name of some of hypocrites who wanted to kill him to Hudhayfa_b._al-Yaman which in similar fashion infallible Imams have introduced hypocrites of their time to their confident trustworthy companions . 

He was trusted by the Prophet (s). The Prophet (s) let him know about many future events and seditions, the true character of some people and hypocrites.^[18] In particular, when the Prophet (s) was returning from Tabuk, he told Hudhayfa the names of all the hypocrites.^[19] This is why biographers called him the Prophet (s)'s "Sahib al-Sirr" (confidant).^[20]

The Prophet (s) said about Hudhayfa and Imam Ali (a) that "they know the hypocrites better than all other people".^[21]

Many hadiths have been narrated by Hudhayfa.^[22] He was known as being pious, ascetic, and avoiding to accumulate wealth.^[23]

Hudhayfa in the Period of Imam Ali (a)

He is considered as one of the four main companions of Imam Ali (a).^[29] Al-Kashshi^[30] cited a hadith in which Hudhayfa is considered one of the seven people because of whom God bestows His blessings and bounties to people. These seven people attended the funeral of Fatima al-Zahra (a).

 

 

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hudhayfa_b._al-Yaman

The Hypocrites

Quote

Hudhayfah had three qualities which particularly impressed Muhammad: his unique intelligence, quick-wittedness, and his ability to keep a secret even under persistent questioning. A notable policy of Muhammad was to utilize the special strengths of each companion, carefully choosing the right man for the right task. A primary problem the Muslims encountered were hypocrites who had superficially accepted Islam while simultaneously plotting against the Muslim community. Because of Hudhayfah's ability to keep a secret, Muhammad told him the names of the twelve hypocrites, a trust not bestowed upon any other companion.

 

Quote

Hudhayfah was commissioned to watch their movements and follow their activities. The hypocrites, because of their secrecy and intimate knowledge of the developments and plans of the Muslims, presented a greater threat to the community than external enemies. From this time onward, Hudhayfah was called The Keeper of the Secret of the Messenger of Allah, remaining faithful to his pledge of secrecy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudhayfah_ibn_al-Yaman

 

11 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

but their knowledge did not need to encompass beyond the shariah.

Their knowledge has been about having full knowledge about all knowledges  of their time anyway having knowledge about Shariah always has had more priority than other knowledges which knowing other knowledge likewise chemistry & physics & medicine & etc which have had lower priority than Shriah  have been mentioned as their merits 

Naming, Teknonym, and Epithets

Many years before Imam al-Baqir (a) was born, the Prophet (s) named him Muhammad and titled him "al-Baqir". Hadith al-Lawh transmitted by Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari and others corroborate this.^[3]

His epithets were, al-Baqir, al-Shakir (the thankful to God), and al-Hadi (the guide), the former of which is the most famous. The meaning of "al-Baqir" is "splitter." Al-Ya'qubi wrote that, "He (a) was named al-Baqir since he split knowledge."^[4] His famous teknonym is Abu Ja'far.^[5] In hadith references, he (a) is mostly referred to as Abu Ja'far al-Awwal.

Quote

Al-Shaykh al-Mufid said Imam al-Baqir (a) was superior to all his brothers in knowledge, piety, and dignity. He had a higher position in relation to his siblings. Everyone praised him with glory and he was respected by the Suuni and Shi'a scholars. He (a) had knowledge of religion, the Qur'an, ethics, and morals to such a great extent that even these had not been formerly taught by any of the children of al-Hasan (a) and al-Husayn (a). The rest of the companions of the Prophet (s), noble ones among the Followers, and highest ranking of jurisprudence scholars have narrated from him. His position in merits and nobility reached a level of being exemplary among the people of knowledge. They wrote works and composed poems to praise his personality^[13].

 

Quote

 By the beginning of Imam al-Baqir's (a) imamate a great scientific movement by him emerged in Shi'a which reached its peak at the time of his son, Imam al-Sadiq (a). He (a) was superior to all nobles of Banu Hashim in knowledge, piety, dignity, and merits. His narrations in religion, the conduct of the Prophet (s), Qur'an sciences, moral conduct, and manners are more than what remained from the children of Imam al-Hasan (a) and Imam al-Husayn (a) until then.^[16] It was in this period that Shi'a started to establish its culture -including jurisprudence, exegesis, and ethics.^[17]

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

The Imam had slight sexual intercourse, and he was a bit upset because had he known he would have this girl he would not have engaged in this. 

The pious imam also states, he had done a business deal but got the short end because he didn't know what was where. 

lol  from a shia site you have reched to a false  wahabi conclusion 

[In Gods Name]

13 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

lol  from a shia site you have reched to a false  wahabi conclusion 

It's in the hadith itself.

[Cool]

3 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

you are using verses that are vague and then completely making leaps, esoteric interpretations without evidence, and linguistic and theological gymnastics. 

Alaikum Salam! 

These verses are "vague" for you only. Ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to open up your breast (شرح صدر) and unfold the meanings, understanding and ta'veel of these verses:

ثم انا علينا بيانه

Since you have no idea of how Imams have interpreted the verses, I am just quoting few ahadith explaining their status as الشهداء، there is a whole chapter in al-Kafi that Imams are the witnesses of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon creation:

 أن الأئمة شهداء الله عز وجل على خلقه

1.

علي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن زياد القندي، عن سماعة قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل: " فكيف إذا جئنا من كل أمة بشهيد وجئنا بك على هؤلاء شهيدا (2) " قال: نزلت في أمة محمد صلى الله عليه وآله خاصة، في كل قرن منهم إمام منا شاهد عليهم ومحمد صلى الله عليه وآله شاهد علينا.

2.

الحسين بن محمد، عن معلى بن محمد، عن الحسن بن علي الوشاء، عن أحمد بن عائذ، عن عمر بن أذينة، عن بريد العجلي قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام، عن قول الله عز وجل: " وكذلك جعلناكم أمة وسطا لتكونوا شهداء على الناس (3) " قال: نحن الأمة الوسطى ونحن شهداء الله على خلقه وحججه في أرضه، قلت: قول الله عز وجل: " ملة أبيكم إبراهيم " قال: إيانا عنى خاصة " هو سماكم المسلمين من قبل " في الكتب التي مضت " وفي هذا " القرآن " ليكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا (4) " فرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله الشهيد علينا بما بلغنا عن الله عز وجل ونحن الشهداء على الناس فمن صدق صدقناه يوم القيامة، ومن كذب كذبناه يوم القيامة.

3.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن إبراهيم بن عمر اليماني، عن سليم بن قيس الهلالي، عن أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى طهرنا وعصمنا وجعلنا شهداء على خلقه، وحجته في أرضه، و جعلنا مع القرآن وجعل القرآن معنا، لا نفارقه ولا يفارقنا

4.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن ابن أذينة، عن بريد العجلي قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: قول الله تبارك وتعالى: " وكذلك جعلناكم أمة وسطا لتكونوا شهداء على الناس ويكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا " قال: نحن الأمة الوسط ونحن شهداء الله تبارك وتعالى على خلقه، وحججه في أرضه،

Now you have seen sufficient evidences for them being the witness over creation/people. I would like you to assess their knowledge and ask yourself how would they testify the truth and lies of people? 

Imagine there will be men (رجال) on A'raaf who recognize everyone from their marks:

وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ

7:46) and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks

So these rijaal suddenly becomes aware of people's deeds without even witnessing them? How they distinguish between good & bad people by their "marks" ? Is this the evidence of ignorance or knowledge? 

Now I can quote multiple sahih ahadith for this verse as well.

3 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

The Imams didn't know where tomorrow's food would come from. They didn't know who the hypocrites around them were. They had limited knowledge of future events which was an inheritance of the Messenger of Allah, but their knowledge did not need to encompass beyond the shariah. They did not have to have knowledge of how to code python, Java etc and probably would make mistakes if they learned to code like any other person.

Your above expression can also be seen in light of Quran, and I am viewing it as Qur'an expressed about some people:

 

ذَلِكَ مَبْلَغُهُم مِّنَ الْعِلْمِ

(Such is their sum of knowledge)

So according to you, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed witnesses who do not witness anything (na'udobillah). The oft repeating word الشهداء is a lie or a drama (na'udobillah)? Or these الشهداء are blind & deaf (na'udobillah)? 

[Muslim2010]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:34 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

it depends on level of your knowledge do your knowledge equivalent to knowledge of infallible Imam which you can say how determine boundaries of knowledge inside  holy Quran !!!?

I like to add the following link that mentions authentic hadith from Alkafi about the knowledge of Imams from ahl albyat (عليه السلام):

wasalam

Edited October 16, 2023 by Muslim2010