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In the Name of God بسم الله

Fasting on the day of Ashura - How Ummayads wanted to turn Ashura into a day of blessing?


Guest Syed Jawad Asghar Rizvi

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7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

What does "Semi-obligatory" mean?

So you admit that fasting on Ashura was in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but that it is not obligatory, and neither is it haram. So what are we arguing about? We Sunnis don't saying fasting on Ashura is obligatory, we say it is mustahhab.

Salam because Ummayyid made it an official Eid for celebrating martyring of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that they forged & fabricated hadiths for highlighting an Islamic Eid as one of their innovation like cursing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that both f these two traditions innovated by Ummayyids  that until know majority of sunni muslims are following this innovation unknowingly , without knowing real reason behind fasting & celebrating anyway because of linking this fasting to this innovation fasting of Ashura is Makruh for shias because it's linked to ummayid innovation for humilating Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

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@Cherub786 At first you were suggesting that the calendars no longer match because the the Jews changed it. Then when I asked you when this change occurred you tell me it happened before Islam and the

I had a similar topic 3 years ago. Here are 3 main problems on this issue: 1) Some narrations only mention "Ashura" which could be the 10th of any month. "Ashura" being associated with Muhar

l agree. His verbose diatribes border on the pontificating. He does appear to write from a pre-determined script. Pasting pre-writ paragraphs. l have also wonder if this is not a he, but 

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After reviewing what Sayyed Al-Khoei said on this topic, his argument was as follows:

- the narrations which forbid fasting are weak with the exception of one hadith, which does not explicitly mention it is haram, it merely states that "fasting on Ashura was before Shahr Ramadhan, so after fasting on Shahr Ramadhan came about, fasting on Ashura was left".

- he says this is not strong on nahi (forbidding) of fasting, and when compared to the hadiths that recommend fasting, they are stronger and more authentic.

- he then says that it is obviously haram to fast on Ashura if it is with the intention of celebrating the death of Imam Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) as the Umayyads had done, but that fasting in and of itself is mustahab. 

Here he is discussing the differing views of the ulama and reviewing them, for those interested and whom can read Arabic:

https://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=3258

Again, I say this because I believe the brothers on here, who I am sure their intention is to stand for the musaab of Abu Abdillah (عليه السلام) - may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward them - but they also have to understand that some of our great scholars said it is mustahab, so this is not only a "nasibi" thing.

The discussion would be much better if we reviewed our own books and hadiths on this topic, and the views of our own scholars, and dissected them, rather than ignoring them and focusing on the books of others.

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11 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

After reviewing what Sayyed Al-Khoei said on this topic, his argument was as follows:

- the narrations which forbid fasting are weak with the exception of one hadith, which does not explicitly mention it is haram, it merely states that "fasting on Ashura was before Shahr Ramadhan, so after fasting on Shahr Ramadhan came about, fasting on Ashura was left".

- he says this is not strong on nahi (forbidding) of fasting, and when compared to the hadiths that recommend fasting, they are stronger and more authentic.

- he then says that it is obviously haram to fast on Ashura if it is with the intention of celebrating the death of Imam Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) as the Umayyads had done, but that fasting in and of itself is mustahab. 

All credit goes to Sayyed Al-Khoei. I think my work is done here (for now)

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3 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Why post this without a source? I know nothing about this group but a search says they are only a few decades old.

Messianic Jews are Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah, they continue to observe the Mosaic Law, more or less, and consider themselves a sect of Judaism.

Some of them follow the original lunar calendar while others follow the lunisolar calendar instituted by the Sanhedrin. Nazarene Israel, for example, have determined that for this year Yom Kippur corresponds to 30 August, 2020

https://nazareneisrael.org/events/

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14 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

If this is deemed sahih then why not fast on the 9th instead of the 10th?

There are several Hadith on the subject, when taken together, the result is that we are meant to fast on the 9th and on the 10th, or on the 10th and the 11th. The purpose to make some distinction from the Jews who only fast on the 10th:

صُومُوا يَوْمَ عَاشُورَاءَ ، وَخَالِفُوا فِيهِ الْيَهُودَ ، صُومُوا قَبْلَهُ يَوْمًا أَوْ بَعْدَهُ يَوْمًا

The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Fast the day of Ashura, and be different from the Jews with regard to it; fast the day before it or the day after it.”

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18 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

1) Some narrations only mention "Ashura" which could be the 10th of any month.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2007-ashura

ASHURA (the "tenth" day):

By: Kaufmann Kohler, Richard Gottheil

A fast-day among the Mohammedans, observed on the tenth day of the month MuḦarram, and derived from the Jewish Day of Atonement, celebrated on the tenth of Tishri (Lev. xvi. 29, xxiii. 27). The name is an Aramaic form of the Hebrew word "'Asor" (the tenth), still to be found in a liturgical poem for the Day of Atonement (, M. Sachs, "Festgebete der Israeliten," 4th ed., pt. iv. 88). (Jewish Encyclopedia)

Now it's clear that Ashura is derived from the Hebrew word Asor that was specific for Yom Kippur

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2007-ashura

ASHURA (the "tenth" day):

By: Kaufmann Kohler, Richard Gottheil

A fast-day among the Mohammedans, observed on the tenth day of the month MuḦarram, and derived from the Jewish Day of Atonement, celebrated on the tenth of Tishri (Lev. xvi. 29, xxiii. 27). The name is an Aramaic form of the Hebrew word "'Asor" (the tenth), still to be found in a liturgical poem for the Day of Atonement (, M. Sachs, "Festgebete der Israeliten," 4th ed., pt. iv. 88). (Jewish Encyclopedia)

Now it's clear that Ashura is derived from the Hebrew word Asor that was specific for Yom Kippur

Except the Prophet entered Medina in Rabi-Ul-Awal so it negates the whole discussion. 

Unless you can prove that 12-16 Rabi-Ul-Awal = 10 Muharram.

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5 hours ago, Sumerian said:

The discussion would be much better if we reviewed our own books and hadiths on this topic, and the views of our own scholars, and dissected them, rather than ignoring them and focusing on the books of others.

Shias should not refute Sunnis by solely appealing to fasting on the day of Ashura. Rather, it should be appealing to the narrations which say that fasting is recommend because of supposed good things that happened on this day like Musa (a) being saved.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEUPkJZDspx/

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2 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Except the Prophet entered Medina in Rabi-Ul-Awal so it negates the whole discussion. 

Unless you can prove that 12-16 Rabi-Ul-Awal = 10 Muharram.

Suppose you are right the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina on that date (I don't know what your authentic source is), how is it relevant? Yes, the Hadith says when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم came to Medina he observed the Jews fasting on Ashura, that doesn't necessitate that the very first day he appeared in Medina was Ashura, it simply means that in the early period of the Prophet's stay in Medina.

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Suppose you are right the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina on that date (I don't know what your authentic source is), how is it relevant? Yes, the Hadith says when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم came to Medina he observed the Jews fasting on Ashura, that doesn't necessitate that the very first day he appeared in Medina was Ashura, it simply means that in the early period of the Prophet's stay in Medina.

10 months later is early period?

Am I going to have to list out all the narrations about "entering Medina"?

You are pretty resourceful - pls confirm when the Prophet entered Medina.

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10 hours ago, Sumerian said:

After reviewing what Sayyed Al-Khoei said on this topic, his argument was as follows:

- the narrations which forbid fasting are weak with the exception of one hadith, which does not explicitly mention it is haram, it merely states that "fasting on Ashura was before Shahr Ramadhan, so after fasting on Shahr Ramadhan came about, fasting on Ashura was left".

- he says this is not strong on nahi (forbidding) of fasting, and when compared to the hadiths that recommend fasting, they are stronger and more authentic.

- he then says that it is obviously haram to fast on Ashura if it is with the intention of celebrating the death of Imam Al-Husayn (عليه السلام) as the Umayyads had done, but that fasting in and of itself is mustahab. 

Here he is discussing the differing views of the ulama and reviewing them, for those interested and whom can read Arabic:

https://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=3258

Again, I say this because I believe the brothers on here, who I am sure their intention is to stand for the musaab of Abu Abdillah (عليه السلام) - may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward them - but they also have to understand that some of our great scholars said it is mustahab, so this is not only a "nasibi" thing.

The discussion would be much better if we reviewed our own books and hadiths on this topic, and the views of our own scholars, and dissected them, rather than ignoring them and focusing on the books of others.

@Sumerian - we went through this back in 2018. Please do not selectively present information. Ayatollah Khoei is explicit in stating that fasting on Ashura is an abominable act.
 

khoei ashura fasting.gif

I would advise you to read more, fully understand the issue at hand and then discuss it. 

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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

@Sumerian - we went through this back in 2018. Please do not selectively present information. Ayatollah Khoei is explicit in stating that fasting on Ashura is an abominable act.
 

khoei ashura fasting.gif

I would advise you to read more, fully understand the issue at hand and then discuss it. 

I am not selectively presenting information, it is a fact that many of our scholars said fasting is mustahab, to which Sayyed Al-Khoei is one of them.

An English translation of his Farsi book does not suffice for me when the hard Arabic copy of his most important books, Minhaj Al-Saliheen and Urwat Al-Wuthqa, say the opposite.

I would advise you my dear friend and brother to not accuse people of selectively presenting information, and perhaps study the books of Sayyed Al-Khoei and his views, wholistically. 

A further point is, it is not only Sayyed Al-Khoei with the opinion of istihbaab of fasting on Ashura, you have a plethora of other fuqaha as well. What are you going to do with them? 

All I'm trying to say is that instead of claiming this fast was a "nasibi" or "fabricated" thing, we should review the hadiths and fatwas from our own side first. This is not a Sunni/Umayyad-Shi'a issue, this is an intra-Shi'a debate in itself. As brother @Follower of Ahlulbayt said, our main issue is with the reasonings behind the fasting from their side, not the actual act of fasting in itself (which its thawab is debated among us).

Finally, I am on your side brother, remember that. Barak Allahu Feek as well on your efforts to defend Aba Abdillah (عليه السلام) and his musaab. In no way shape or form am I endorsing the views of the person you are debating, just saying let's open our books first before theirs.

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8 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

They don’t they just carry the Jewish culture. 

Depends which specific group or sub sect of Messianic Jews we're talking about. There have always been non-Christian Messianic Jews in history (not counting Jesus and his original disciples and followers), like the Ebionites, Judaizers, etc.

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10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

10 months later is early period?

Yes, especially considering the full duration after his emigration to Medina was 10 years. The first 10 months of a 10 year period certainly will be relegated to the early period of those 10 years.

Quote

Am I going to have to list out all the narrations about "entering Medina"?

List at least one

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16 hours ago, Sumerian said:

I am not selectively presenting information, it is a fact that many of our scholars said fasting is mustahab, to which Sayyed Al-Khoei is one of them.

An English translation of his Farsi book does not suffice for me when the hard Arabic copy of his most important books, Minhaj Al-Saliheen and Urwat Al-Wuthqa, say the opposite.

I would advise you my dear friend and brother to not accuse people of selectively presenting information, and perhaps study the books of Sayyed Al-Khoei and his views, wholistically. 

A further point is, it is not only Sayyed Al-Khoei with the opinion of istihbaab of fasting on Ashura, you have a plethora of other fuqaha as well. What are you going to do with them? 

All I'm trying to say is that instead of claiming this fast was a "nasibi" or "fabricated" thing, we should review the hadiths and fatwas from our own side first. This is not a Sunni/Umayyad-Shi'a issue, this is an intra-Shi'a debate in itself. As brother @Follower of Ahlulbayt said, our main issue is with the reasonings behind the fasting from their side, not the actual act of fasting in itself (which its thawab is debated among us).

Finally, I am on your side brother, remember that. Barak Allahu Feek as well on your efforts to defend Aba Abdillah (عليه السلام) and his musaab. In no way shape or form am I endorsing the views of the person you are debating, just saying let's open our books first before theirs.

Salaam @Sumerian - first, we are on the same team - the team of Allah, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlul-Bayt (عليه السلام) alhumdulillah.

Second, if you remember I called you my younger brother so anything I tell you is brotherly advise so please take it as such. :cuddle:

Now, it is wrong to say "many" scholars say it is mustahab. By and large the vast majority do not approve of fasting on Ashura.

Ayatollah Khoei may have written hundreds of books on hadees and its authenticity but what matters is what he wrote in his tawzih...which can and is a culmination of all his works translated into religious edict. So when he said "fasting on ashura is abominable", you have to accept it as his stance. If you do not agree with the translation, then bring forth the Arabic of Edict 1756 and your translation of it so we can have a meaningful discussion. You will be hard-pressed to show that the arabic said mustahab and the english states abominable.

 

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16 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Yes, especially considering the full duration after his emigration to Medina was 10 years. The first 10 months of a 10 year period certainly will be relegated to the early period of those 10 years.

List at least one

If I list one, do you promise not to ask for more?

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Why should I promise? If you list one that is your best reference, most authentic, and not problematic, it should be sufficient

Okay, then I will play along knowing exactly where you will attempt to take this discussion:

Narrated Abu Musa:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, he noticed that some people among the Jews used to respect Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram) and fast on it. The Prophet (ﷺ) then said, "We have more right to observe fast on this day." and ordered that fasting should be observed on it.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3942

 

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, the Jews were observing the fast on 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) and they said, "This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh," On that, the Prophet (ﷺ) said to his companions, "You (Muslims) have more right to celebrate Moses' victory than they have, so observe the fast on this day."

Sahih al-Bukhari 4680

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, he found the Jews observing the fast on the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram). The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them (about it) and they replied, "This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh." The Prophet (ﷺ) said (to the Muslims), "We are nearer to Moses than they, so fast on this day."

Sahih al-Bukhari 4737

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) came to Medina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of Ashura. He asked them about that. They replied, "This is a good day, the day on which Allah rescued Bani Israel from their enemy. So, Moses fasted this day." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "We have more claim over Moses than you." So, the Prophet fasted on that day and ordered (the Muslims) to fast (on that day).

Sahih al-Bukhari 2004

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) came to Medina, he found (the Jews) fasting on the day of 'Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram). They used to say: "This is a great day on which Allah saved Moses and drowned the folk of Pharaoh. Moses observed the fast on this day, as a sign of gratitude to Allah." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I am closer to Moses than they." So, he observed the fast (on that day) and ordered the Muslims to fast on it.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3397

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) arrived at Medina he found that the Jews observed fast on the day of 'Ashura'. They were asked the reason for the fast. They replied, "This is the day when Allah caused Moses and the children of Israel to have victory over Pharaoh, so we fast on this day as a sign of glorifying it." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "We are closer to Moses than you." Then he ordered that fasting on this day should be observed.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3943

Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported that when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to Medina, he found the Jews observing the fast on the day of Ashura. They (the Jews) were asked about it and they said:

It is the day on which Allah granted victory to Moses and (his people) Bani Isra'il over the Pharaoh and we observe fast out of gratitude to Him. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: We have a closer connection with Moses than you have, and he commanded to observe fast on this day.

Sahih Muslim 1130 a

Ibn'Abbas (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) arrived in Medina and found the Jews observing fast on the day of 'Ashura. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said to them:

What is the (significance) of this day that you observe fast on it? They said: It is the day of great (significance) when Allah delivered Moses and his people, and drowned the Pharaoh and his people, and Moses observed fast out of gratitude and we also observe it. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: We have more right, and we have a closer connection with Moses than you have; so Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) observed fast (on the day of 'Ashura), and gave orders that it should be observed.

Sahih Muslim 1130 c

Ibn ‘Abbas said that God’s messenger came to Medina and found the Jews observing the fast on the day of ‘Ashura’, so he asked them what was the significance of that day which they were observing and they replied, “It is a great day on which God delivered Moses and his people and drowned Pharaoh and his people; so Moses observed it as a fast out of gratitude, and we do so also.” He said, “We have more right, and we have a closer connection with Moses than you have,” so God’s messenger observed it as a fast himself and gave orders that it should be observed.
Mishkat al-Masabih 2067

 

 
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8 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam @Sumerian - first, we are on the same team - the team of Allah, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlul-Bayt (عليه السلام) alhumdulillah.

Second, if you remember I called you my younger brother so anything I tell you is brotherly advise so please take it as such. :cuddle:

Now, it is wrong to say "many" scholars say it is mustahab. By and large the vast majority do not approve of fasting on Ashura.

Ayatollah Khoei may have written hundreds of books on hadees and its authenticity but what matters is what he wrote in his tawzih...which can and is a culmination of all his works translated into religious edict. So when he said "fasting on ashura is abominable", you have to accept it as his stance. If you do not agree with the translation, then bring forth the Arabic of Edict 1756 and your translation of it so we can have a meaningful discussion. You will be hard-pressed to show that the arabic said mustahab and the english states abominable.

 

alaykum al salam.

The group of scholars whom deemed it mustahab to fast the full day, either with the condition of grief, and those without that condition are:

Al-Saduq, Al-Tusi, Al-Khwansari, Al-Mufid, Muhaqiq Al-Hilli, Allamah Al-Hilli, Al-Najafi, Al-Sabzawari, Al-Khoei, and others.

Source: https://www.valiasr-aj.com/persian/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=6288

(The source provides the names of the books wherein they described their views)

These are not a small bunch and certainly not small names.

As for Sayyed Al-Khoei, he made his opinion clear in response to Sayyed Al-Yazdi in his commentary of Urwat Al-Wuthqa, who was of the opinion that it is makruh to fast on Ashura, he said this to confirm his opinion;

فالأقوى استحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم من حيث هو كما ذكره في الجواهر

[Therefore] what is stronger is that it is recommended to fast on this day in and of itself, as stated by Sahib Al-Jawahir (Muhaqiq Al-Najafi).

As for the book Tawdhih Al-Masa'il, as far as I know it is a Farsi book, and there is no Arabic version of it, and I'm not sure if he wrote it himself. That's not to say I'm doubting it, as it is an official book, but in Hawza people usually refer to his primary sources like his commentary on Urwat Al-Wuthqa to discuss his views. 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Okay, then I will play along knowing exactly where you will attempt to take this discussion:

Narrated Abu Musa:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, he noticed that some people among the Jews used to respect Ashura' (i.e. 10th of Muharram) and fast on it. The Prophet (ﷺ) then said, "We have more right to observe fast on this day." and ordered that fasting should be observed on it.

Sahih al-Bukhari 3942

I already answered this

What happened to your list of references that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina in Rabi al-Awwal?

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34 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I already answered this

What happened to your list of references that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina in Rabi al-Awwal?

That's a secondary request.

Are we in agreement that per the narrations it was Jewish Ashura whenever the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) entered Medina and not several months later?

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8 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Are we in agreement that per the narrations it was Jewish Ashura whenever the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) entered Medina and not several months later?

No, as I already explained to you, it is not necessary (though possible) that the day when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina it was Ashura. The narrations do make it necessary that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم observed the Jews fasting on Ashura in the beginning of his Medinese period - a period of ten years. It is not necessary that he observed them fasting on the very first day he entered into Medina.

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33 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

No, as I already explained to you, it is not necessary (though possible) that the day when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم entered Medina it was Ashura. The narrations do make it necessary that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم observed the Jews fasting on Ashura in the beginning of his Medinese period - a period of ten years. It is not necessary that he observed them fasting on the very first day he entered into Medina.

I was afraid you were going to go there.

I citied 9 narrations that are very explicit that the Prophet found the Jews fasting when he arrived in Medina. You can't arrive for 10 months. 

Also, are we really going to have to discuss the use of AND as a conjunction?

The Prophet (ﷺ) came to Medina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of Ashura

The use of AND is evident that coming to Medina and seeing Jews fasting is simultaneous.

Come on Cherry. You are better than this.

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43 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I was afraid you were going to go there.

I citied 9 narrations that are very explicit that the Prophet found the Jews fasting when he arrived in Medina. You can't arrive for 10 months. 

The problem is you are putting too much stock in the English translation with the word arrival, which understandably conveys a sense of immediate arrival. But the waw in conjunction with the verb qadima doesn't necessitate that that which follows happened literally during the very act of arrival itself. It only expresses the idea that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم witnessed the event at the beginning of his stay in Medina - though it could also mean the first day, that is not necessarily the case.

When an immigrant arrived in America he saw firsthand how Americans celebrate the Fourth of July.

This sentence doesn't necessitate that the immigrant arrived in America on the 4th of July, though it is possible he did going by the sentence alone.

This interpretation is further enforced by the fact that all these narrations never say "the Prophet arrived in Medina on the Day of Ashura", but they say "when the Prophet arrived in Medina he saw the Jews fasting on Ashura". The former would explicitly confirm the date of arrival of the Prophet, the latter does not

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

The problem is you are putting too much stock in the English translation with the word arrival, which understandably conveys a sense of immediate arrival. But the waw in conjunction with the verb qadima doesn't necessitate that that which follows happened literally during the very act of arrival itself. It only expresses the idea that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم witnessed the event at the beginning of his stay in Medina - though it could also mean the first day, that is not necessarily the case.

When an immigrant arrived in America he saw firsthand how Americans celebrate the Fourth of July.

This sentence doesn't necessitate that the immigrant arrived in America on the 4th of July, though it is possible he did going by the sentence alone.

This interpretation is further enforced by the fact that all these narrations never say "the Prophet arrived in Medina on the Day of Ashura", but they say "when the Prophet arrived in Medina he saw the Jews fasting on Ashura". The former would explicitly confirm the date of arrival of the Prophet, the latter does not

Okay so we've made a little progress where at least you are acknowledging it is possible it was Ashura when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) reached Medina.

5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

When the Prophet (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, the Jews were observing the fast on 'Ashura

When Immigrant Harry arrived in New York, the Irish were celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) arrived at Medina, he found the Jews observing the fast on the day of 'Ashura

When Immigrant Harry arrived in New York, he found the Irish celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The Prophet (ﷺ) came to Medina and saw the Jews fasting on the day of Ashura.

Immigrant Harry came to New York and saw the Irish celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

In all 3 examples, there simply is not any sense of delay. The events are clearly simultaneous. 

I could give you 1-2 days as settling period but there is no way you can infer from any of the 9 narrations that there was a 10-month delay. At that point, the narration would have been, "The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw Jews fasting...". The fact that arrival and fasting are in the same sentence means they were closely tied events.

We won't move forward in this discussion unless you accept that Jews were fasting when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arrived in Medina based on the narrations I cited. Conversely, you can reject the narrations by calling them false. You can't rely on "implied 10-months." Remember that people on SC and more importantly Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is watching.

 

PS. My earlier comment/feeling about knowing what direction you will take this in was spot on.

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2 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I could give you 1-2 days as settling period but there is no way you can infer from any of the 9 narrations that there was a 10-month delay

If you concede a possibility of 1-2 days, then why not several months (in a period of ten years, the first couple of months certainly constitute the early phase of that period). By conceding 1-2 days you indirectly acknowledge that it is an expression of language and doesn't necessarily have to be taken literally, that's the point.

So I'm still waiting for the proof about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم arriving in Medina in Rabi al-Awwal. That's the bottom line

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4 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

If you concede a possibility of 1-2 days, then why not several months (in a period of ten years, the first couple of months certainly constitute the early phase of that period). By conceding 1-2 days you indirectly acknowledge that it is an expression of language and doesn't necessarily have to be taken literally, that's the point.

So I'm still waiting for the proof about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم arriving in Medina in Rabi al-Awwal. That's the bottom line

I am a reasonable person. You conceded that it was possible to be same day so I showed magnanimity by giving you another couple of days.

But the real reason to give you 1-2 days is because the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) exact arrival date range is between Rabi-Ul-Awal 12-16 so the couple of days would cover any date conversion errors.

I will cite my examples again for you to confirm imminence of the 2 events:

11 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

When Immigrant Harry arrived in New York, the Irish were celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

When Immigrant Harry arrived in New York, he found the Irish celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

Immigrant Harry came to New York and saw the Irish celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

Same time.

We will move on to Rabi-Ul-Awal once this is settled. If you refuse to acknowledge the obvious, then just clearly say so and we can stop this discussion.

I really thought you would be different from the other Sunnis that frequent(ed) ShiaChat.

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5 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

But the real reason to give you 1-2 days is because the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) exact arrival date range is between Rabi-Ul-Awal 12-16 so the couple of days would cover any date conversion errors.

Is that when the calendar is adjusted to correct the phenomenon of nasi (intercalation)?

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20 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Is that when the calendar is adjusted to correct the phenomenon of nasi (intercalation)?

Nope,  not referring to nasi but hijra to gregorian calc.

Are we okay to proceed with the understanding that "when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arrived in Medina, the Jews were fasting on Ashura"?

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10 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Nope,  not referring to nasi but hijra to gregorian calc.

So when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم arrived in Medina, it was between 12-16 Rabi al-Awwal according to our reckoning based on the Hijri Islamic calendar. But what was the date according to the reckoning of nasi, which was forbidden toward the end of the Prophet's life?

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Karen Armstrong writes: "Muhammad had also instructed Mus'ab to hold a special prayer meeting on Friday afternoon while the Jews were preparing for their Sabbath, and to fast with the Jews on Yom Kippur." (Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time)

Yet another modern, Western, non-Muslim scholar and historian who contradicts the Shi'ah narrative

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2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Yet another modern, Western, non-Muslim scholar and historian who contradicts the Shi'ah narrative

Yet she is honest enough to say in the book that you reference:

Quote

Until recently I was almost entirely ignorant about the religion

She says that on page 13 and yet feels qualified to write an entire book from a standing start.

Impressive.

How does she do it? Go to her bibliography. It's full of works by western authors, there is no attempt to at least delve into original sources. It's an entirely derivative work whose positioning in the market place was to present a more sympathetic view on Islam.  

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12 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

So when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم arrived in Medina, it was between 12-16 Rabi al-Awwal according to our reckoning based on the Hijri Islamic calendar. But what was the date according to the reckoning of nasi, which was forbidden toward the end of the Prophet's life?

Cherry - i need you to confirm we are in agreement that it was a Jewish celebration whenever the Prophet arrived in Medina before we go to the next discussion around date of entry.

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On 9/3/2020 at 12:45 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Cherry - i need you to confirm we are in agreement that it was a Jewish celebration whenever the Prophet arrived in Medina before we go to the next discussion around date of entry.

@Cherub786 - still waiting brother.

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