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In the Name of God بسم الله

Fasting on the day of Ashura - How Ummayads wanted to turn Ashura into a day of blessing?


Guest Syed Jawad Asghar Rizvi

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@Cherub786 At first you were suggesting that the calendars no longer match because the the Jews changed it. Then when I asked you when this change occurred you tell me it happened before Islam and the

I had a similar topic 3 years ago. Here are 3 main problems on this issue: 1) Some narrations only mention "Ashura" which could be the 10th of any month. "Ashura" being associated with Muhar

l agree. His verbose diatribes border on the pontificating. He does appear to write from a pre-determined script. Pasting pre-writ paragraphs. l have also wonder if this is not a he, but 

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Your research is weak, firstly, it is clear English isn't your language, and so you have failed to comprehend the English translations of the Hadith you analyzed.

It is a fact that Jews, historically and until today, fast on the 10th of Tishrei. Tishrei, which literally means "beginning" is the first month of the Hebrew civil calendar. The 10th of Tishrei is the holiest day in Judaism, known as Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).

It is clear Tishrei is meant to coincide with Muharram, the first month of the Islamic lunar calendar. The reason the dates don't match is because Jews altered their calendar. Their calendar was originally a purely lunar calendar, but the Jewish Chazal changed the calendar so that their festivals were fixed by season.

Therefore it is true that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم observed the Jews fasting on Ashurah.

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Posted (edited)

Even you accept observing fasting of Jews on Ashurah then it’s an insult to prophet Muhammad (pbu) by fabrications of Ummayids 

Edited by Mahdavist
Personal attacks removed
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3 hours ago, dragonxx said:

i thought there was such a thing as fasting on ashura but that was stopped by the Prophet (pbuhf) when ramathan came along

lt was not "stopped" but made optional.

According to the Sunnah of al-Bukhari on the authority of abu Musa, A'isha and ibn Umar, saum is optional.

Sahih al-Bukhari Bk 26 #662; Bk 58 #172; Bk58 #278 and Bk60 #28

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Your research is weak, firstly, it is clear English isn't your language, and so you have failed to comprehend the English translations of the Hadith you analyzed.

It is a fact that Jews, historically and until today, fast on the 10th of Tishrei. Tishrei, which literally means "beginning" is the first month of the Hebrew civil calendar. The 10th of Tishrei is the holiest day in Judaism, known as Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement).

It is clear Tishrei is meant to coincide with Muharram, the first month of the Islamic lunar calendar. The reason the dates don't match is because Jews altered their calendar. Their calendar was originally a purely lunar calendar, but the Jewish Chazal changed the calendar so that their festivals were fixed by season.

Therefore it is true that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم observed the Jews fasting on Ashurah.

Your nonsense first point let's me dismiss you as easily as you've dismissed him. One, you don't know what his level of English is so don't make assumptions as God explicitly forbids that. Two, he also highlighted the Arabic section so on what grounds can you assume he was only using the English section? Did you even bother to read what he said? Or did you just regurgitate your prerehearsed bullet points? I think that because you did because you didn't really address what he said, in what way he failed to comprehend those specific ahadeeth.

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1 hour ago, guest 2025 said:

Your nonsense

l agree. His verbose diatribes border on the pontificating.

1 hour ago, guest 2025 said:

your prerehearsed bullet points?

He does appear to write from a pre-determined script. Pasting pre-writ paragraphs.

l have also wonder if this is not a he, but  fire-team spewing this stuff out.

l have to go and find citations for my posts,and then return to see paragraphs almost immediately displayed.

Of course, this not-a-he speculation may indicate we are dealing with an evilgelical Al experiment.

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19 hours ago, Guest Syed Jawad Asghar Rizvi said:

I have written a research paper trying to prove that the tradition about the fast of ashura or 10th muharram is not a sunnah but only a fabrication to dilute gham e hussain ((عليه السلام)) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x2Q8VU2JR2RbLNAqYaw6NJhCAwZZj_mKYYSrNtmnbvQ/edit?usp=drivesdk)

Great research paper in English/Urdu........NOT!

you haven’t proved nothing apart from your own assumptions which are nothing.

great research for the ones who haven’t an open mind.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

indicate we are dealing with an evilgelical Al experiment.

What are the indications that we are dealing with an evangelist? if we are dealing with an evangelist then let him debate me about Christ on the ground of the bible and Christian traditions and not runaway like [others] before him to other grounds.

@THREE1THREE

Edited by Hameedeh
[edit] Keep your posts polite or there will be a warning.
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20 hours ago, hasanhh said:

lt was not "stopped" but made optional.

According to the Sunnah of al-Bukhari on the authority of abu Musa, A'isha and ibn Umar, saum is optional.

Sahih al-Bukhari Bk 26 #662; Bk 58 #172; Bk58 #278 and Bk60 #28

from a sunni point of view... but from our aimmah there are hadiths saying it is makrooh no?

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On 8/29/2020 at 6:28 PM, Cherub786 said:

 The reason the dates don't match is because Jews altered their calendar. Their calendar was originally a purely lunar calendar, but the Jewish Chazal changed the calendar so that their festivals were fixed by season.

So please tell us,  when did they change their calender?  Before or after the Prophet {s} met them? And provide your source please. 

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43 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

So please tell us,  when did they change their calender?  Before or after the Prophet {s} met them? And provide your source please. 

Okay, but the first point is that not all Jews accepted the change in the calendar including at present. The Karaite sect follow a lunar calendar like us Muslims. The Jews of Arabia, or specifically, of Yathrib, requires research on what form of Judaism they adhered to. It is evident from other examples they weren't orthodox Jews of the Pharisaic/Rabbinic variety. It remains a matter of debate just how divergent they were from the orthodox Pharisaic/Rabbinic tradition of Judaism. So it is quite possible they were following a lunar calendar, which is why their fast of Yom Kippur coincided with the 10th of Muharram. It is also possible that they were following the modified calendar which is a lunisolar calendar, but the Muslims understood that their fast of Yom Kippur corresponds to Ashurah 10th Muharram. That is because, as I pointed out, Yom Kippur falls on 10th of Tishrei. Tishrei is the first month of the civil Hebrew calendar, just as Muharram is the first lunar month of our calendar.

And to answer your first question as to when (and why) they changed their calendar, don't take my word for it, listen to what a Jewish rabbi says:

 

In summary, according to Pharisaic/Rabbinic Jews, the Sanhedrin or highest Jewish court, is authorized to adjudicate and determine the modality of ceremonial laws and regulations. They were the ones who instituted a change of the lunar calendar to a lunisolar calendar. From our Islamic perspective, this was a corruption of their Rabbis that was in opposition to the Torah and the Prophets.

This change took place in the 4th century CE, by the Nasi of the Sanhedrin, Hillel the Nasi, but it was not universally implemented by even those Jews, and their celebration of festivals continued to vary

http://www.hakirah.org/vol20Ajdler.pdf

"But one thing is certain: our modern calendar in its final form was definitively not instituted before 922-924, after the end of the R. Sa’adia/Ben Meir controversy."

So I believe that the Jews of Yathrib were not following the fixed lunisolar calendar that the Sanhedrin had legislated, which took six additional centuries before it was finalized and became universal among the orthodox Pharisaic/Rabbinic tradition of Judaism (Karaites and Samaritans continue to follow lunar calendar)

Edited by Cherub786
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Sorry for digressing, but I just wanted to mention an important point that is somewhat relevant. In the video I posted of Rabbi Asher Meza, he explains that the motivation for the Sanhedrin authorizing the change of the lunar calendar based on the Torah to a modified lunisolar calendar so the festivals could be fixed was to maintain the unity of the Jewish people, as evidently they were disputing the sighting of the new moon and consequently celebrating the festivals on different days.

Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم warned his Ummah that we too would follow in the footsteps of the Jews and Christians.

Presently, a dangerous trend within the Ummah has emerged which is advocating for a fixed calendar based on astronomical calculations and not physical moon-sighting. Like the Jews before them, they argue it is necessary to maintain the unity of the Ummah so that the festivals (Eidain) are celebrated on the same day across the world.

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On 8/29/2020 at 10:38 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Even you accept observing fasting of Jews on Ashurah then it’s an insult to prophet Muhammad (pbu) by fabrications of Ummayids 

How did "Umayyad fabrications" find their way into your literature (al-Kafi)?

  محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسين جميعا، عن محمد بن إسماعيل ابن بزيع، عن منصور بن يونس، عن أبي الجارود، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: فرض الله عز وجل على العباد خمسا، أخذوا أربعا وتركوا واحدا، قلت: أتسميهن لي جعلت فداك؟ فقال: الصلاة وكان الناس لا يدرون كيف يصلون، فنزل جبرئيل عليه السلام فقال: يا محمد أخبرهم بمواقيت صلاتهم، ثم نزلت الزكاة فقال: يا محمد أخبرهم من زكاتهم ما أخبرتهم من صلاتهم، ثم نزل الصوم فكان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إذا كان يوم عاشورا بعث إلى ما حوله من القرى فصاموا ذلك اليوم

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad and Muhammad bin al-Husayn, the two together from Muhammad bin Isma'il bin Bazi' from Mansur bin Yunus that AbuI-Jarud said: I heard Abu Ja'far peace be upon him say: Allah, to Whom belong Might and Majesty, made five things incumbent on (his) servants: they accepted four and rejected one. I said: May I be made your ransom, name them for me. He said: 'Prayer; but the people did not understand how to pray, then Gabriel came down and said: O Muhammad, inform them of the timings of their prayers. Then zakat was sent down, and He said: O Muhammad, inform them of their zakat as you have informed them of their prayer. Then fasting was sent down, and, when the day of Ashura came, the Messenger of Allah sent a message to the villages around it (Medina), and they fasted on that day. (Al-Kafi; ch.64 Hadith #6)

Edited by Cherub786
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41 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

and, when the day of Ashura came, the Messenger of Allah sent a message to the villages around it (Medina), and they fasted on that day. (Al-Kafi; ch.64 Hadith #6)

It was about time of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) , also fasting in this day in this day is not obligatory also fasting in this day is not haram but because Ummayids made it semi obligatory for celebrating martyring  of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) so full fasting of this day becomes sign of enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)  & Nasibis that if any shia wants to fast this day then he must refrain from eating & drinking from dawn until afternoon then must breaks his fast at afternoon before sunset with dairy product like people that lost a beloved one .

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13 hours ago, dragonxx said:

from a sunni point of view... but from our aimmah there are hadiths saying it is makrooh no?

No.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 11:32 PM, hasanhh said:

lt was not "stopped" but made optional.

According to the Sunnah of al-Bukhari on the authority of abu Musa, A'isha and ibn Umar, saum is optional.

Sahih al-Bukhari Bk 26 #662; Bk 58 #172; Bk58 #278 and Bk60 #28

 

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On 8/29/2020 at 6:28 PM, Cherub786 said:

Your research is weak, firstly, it is clear English isn't your language,

The paper isn't written in English, it's romanised Urdu.

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I had a similar topic 3 years ago.

Here are 3 main problems on this issue:

1) Some narrations only mention "Ashura" which could be the 10th of any month. "Ashura" being associated with Muharram 10th only happened after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

2) Narrations from Aisha and Abdullah Ibn Umar mention this was a practice that happened in the pre-islamic aka Quraish aka kuffar aka jahiliya days that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) adopted. One has a right to question what other kaffir practices did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) choose to adopt which would lead down the rabbit hole of was the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) kaffir (nauzubillah, istagfirullah) before being visited by Jibrael.

3) The narrations about adopting the practice of the Jews in Medina is outrightly wrong or mis-interpreted because the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) migrated in Rabi-ul-Awal so fasting on "Ashura" would be the other Ashura aka Rabi-ul-Awal 10th.

I could go on and on about the problems associated with this whole concept of fasting on Ashura because it is a blessed day.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

An important question: Why did the narrator/fabricator of the hadith think Yom Kippur is the day when the Jews were saved when the Jews themselves and the Book of Exodus state that Yom Kippur happened much later?

To elaborate on what I said:

Quote
Ibn 'Abbas said:
When the Prophet (ﷺ) came to Medina, he found the Jews observing fast on the day of 'Ashurah; so they were asked about it (by the Prophet). They said: This is a day on which Allah gave Moses domination over Pharaoh. We fast on it out of reverence to him. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: We have a closer connection with Moses than you have. He then gave orders that it should be observed.
 

Note that Ibn Abbas {r} was toddler in Mecca at the time of this event. 

But if you try to verify this claim by reading Jewish texts:

Quote

Just months after the people of Israel left Egypt in the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), they sinned by worshipping a golden calf. Moses ascended Mount Sinai and prayed to G‑d to forgive them. After two 40-day stints on the mountain, full Divine favor was obtained. The day Moses came down the mountain (the 10th of Tishrei) was to be known forevermore as the Day of Atonement—Yom Kippur.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/177886/jewish/What-Is-Yom-Kippur.htm

If you read the Book of Exodus you will see that there is quite a long time between the splitting of the sea (the defeat of the Pharaoh) and the day when Moses {a} came back from the mountain.

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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Posted (edited)

An interesting article about the origin of Yom Kippur:

Quote

We do know that the holiday was observed by the 3rd century B.C.E., because it’s mentioned in the Septuagint – the Greek translation of the Torah. Perhaps, after the time of Ezra, someone – probably a temple priest – “invented” Yom Kippur and added Leviticus 16 into the biblical text.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-origin-of-yom-kippur-a-murder-1.5400654

Now for some contradictions in the ahadith:

As some have already pointed out, some ahadith say it was practiced by the pagans before Islam:

Quote

 

'Aishah said:


The Quraish used to fast on the day of 'Ashurah in pre Islamic days. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would fast on it in pre-Islamic period. When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came to Medina, he fasted on it and commanded to fast on it. When the fast of Ramadan was prescribed, that became obligatory, and (fasting on) 'Ashurah was abandoned. He who wishes may fast on it and he who wishes may leave it.

Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani)

 

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/14

But in this hadith it says the companions believed that the Jews and the Christians fasted on that day and for that reason the date was changed to the 9th. If this is deemed sahih then why not fast on the 9th instead of the 10th?

 
Quote

 

Ibn 'Abbas said:
 
When the Prophet (ﷺ) on the day of 'Ashurah and commanded us to fast on it, they (i.e. Companions) said: Messenger of Allah, this is a day which is considered great by Jews and Christians ? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: When the next year comes, we shall fast on the 9th of Muharram. But the next year the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) breathed his last.
 
Grade    : Sahih (Al-Albani)

 

 
 
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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Narrations from Aisha and Abdullah Ibn Umar mention this was a practice that happened in the pre-islamic aka Quraish aka kuffar aka jahiliya days that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) adopted

The interesting thing is that both of them were born around the same time as the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) declared his prophethood.

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6 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

@Cherub786 At first you were suggesting that the calendars no longer match because the the Jews changed it. Then when I asked you when this change occurred you tell me it happened before Islam and then suggest that perhaps the Arab Jews never followed that change and were following the original calendar. A typical ad hoc explanation without evidence. This is what happens when people find that they are wrong - they have to make things up.

I presented more than enough evidence. The finalization and broad acceptance of the Jewish calendar among orthodox Jews took place centuries after the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

Quote

Now can you tell me do you think the forbiddance of Intercalating months in the latter part of the Prophet's {s} life is also responsible for the divergent calanders? Look at verse 9:37. You must know that the Arabs used to do that. Your answer to this question could make you contradict what you said earlier.

How is it relevant? We are talking about the Jews of Medina and their fasting on Ashura, not the pagan Arabs

Quote

An important question: Why did the narrator/fabricator of the hadith think Yom Kippur is the day when the Jews were saved when the Jews themselves and the Book of Exodus state that Yom Kippur happened much later?

The narrator could have made a mistake as to why they were fasting, mixing up Passover with Yom Kippur. Nonetheless, the important thing to note is that the Jews were observed fasting on the tenth day of the first month of the lunar calendar. They call it Yom Kippur we call it Ashura. Jews fast on Yom Kippur till this day. Where is the fabrication?

Plus, I quoted your own Hadith from the words of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir that Allah initially mandated through the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم a fast on the Day of Ashura. What is your response?

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It was about time of Prophet Muhammad (pbu) , also fasting in this day in this day is not obligatory also fasting in this day is not haram but because Ummayids made it semi obligatory 

What does "Semi-obligatory" mean?

So you admit that fasting on Ashura was in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but that it is not obligatory, and neither is it haram. So what are we arguing about? We Sunnis don't saying fasting on Ashura is obligatory, we say it is mustahhab.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The interesting thing is that both of them were born around the same time as the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) declared his prophethood.

Let's take this hadith as an example:

Narrated Aisha:

During the Pre-lslamic Period of ignorance the Quraish used to observe fasting on the day of 'Ashura', and the Prophet (ﷺ) himself used to observe fasting on it too. But when he came to Medina, he fasted on that day and ordered the Muslims to fast on it. When (the order of compulsory fasting in ) Ramadan was revealed, fasting in Ramadan became an obligation, and fasting on 'Ashura' was given up, and who ever wished to fast (on it) did so, and whoever did not wish to fast on it, did not fast.

Sahih al-Bukhari 4504

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/65/31

Is Hz Aisha saying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used to follow the practice of the kuffar before bringing Islam? I am no historian but I do not recall any conversations between the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the kuffar along the lines of, "you used to follow our practices but have stopped now..." or "why are you still fasting on Ashura when you have shunned our gods?", etc.

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The reason of Fasting Ashura is on of the biggest Nasibi lies I have ever seen,

Let's see where this lie came from,

Ibn' Abbas (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) arrived in Medina and found the Jews observing fast on the day of 'Ashura. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said to them:

What is the (significance) of this day that you observe fast on it? They said: It is the day of great (significance) when Allah delivered Moses and his people, and drowned the Pharaoh and his people, and Moses observed fast out of gratitude and we also observe it. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: We have more right, and we have a closer connection with Moses than you have; so Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) observed fast (on the day of 'Ashura), and gave orders that it should be observed.

Sahih Muslim

https://sunnah.com/muslim/13/164

1. Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) is the Narrator.

2. This happened when the Prophet arrived in Medina.

3.The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is taking from the Jews.

1st,

I would like to address when the Hijra was,

September 20, 622

Now when was Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) born?

619 AD

Ibn Abbas was 3 years old when the Hijra happened and Abbas and his family moved to Medina after the Conquest of Mecca, so Ibn Abbas couldn't narrate this.

2nd

For people that don't know, Ashura is the 10th of Muharram, but the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arrived at Medina on the 5th of Rabi al Awwal so there is no way the Jews fasted this day on the 10th of Muharram

Now if we convert September 20th, 622 (day the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) got to Medina) to the Hebrew and Hijri calendar what do we get?

Tishrei 7, 4383

Rabi al Awwal 5, 1

Let's convert Muharram 10, 1 to Hebrew and Gregorian Calendar,

Av 12, 4382

July 28, 622

3rd,

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is taking from the Jews!? :hahaha:

Isn't there a full door in Sahih al Bukhari saying Don't ask the People of the Book anything?

باب قَوْلِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لَا تَسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ عَنْ شَيْءٍ <------ Look this up and Bukhari Hadiths will be everywhere.

1. Ibn Abbas couldn't have narrated the event.

2.  The dates don't line up.

3. Its impossible for the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to take from Jews.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I presented more than enough evidence. The finalization and broad acceptance of the Jewish calendar among orthodox Jews took place centuries after the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

You are missing the point. The point is your contradiction. Previously you said that Jews didn't change the calendar until after, but then you changed your stance to there being differences among the Jews.

"finalization and broad acceptance" is a bit of sophistry. Just because something wasn't finalized doesn't mean it wasn't there in other forms. And you gave no evidecne that the Arab Jews didn't do it.

However here is some evidence that they did:

Quote

and, following him, in al-Blruni, who also deals at length with this intercalation in his Chronology (ed. Sachau, 11-12, 62-3). According to him, the Arabs took this intercalation from the Jews.

https://library.ut.ac.ir/documents/381543/3581025/Brill_-_The_Encyclopaedia_of_Islam_Vol_7_Mif-Naz_.pdf  Under the entry for 'Nasi'. The author makes an argument for the Arabs taking the intercaltion from the Jews. Although they intercalated using different methods.

Quote

The Jews of Yatrib (Medina) practiced a form of intercalation based either on an arithmetic method, some locally appointed Nasi, or in conjunction with the Babylonian academies.

http://www.alsadiqin.org/history/The Islamic Jewish Calendar.pdf

 

Quote

How is it relevant? We are talking about the Jews of Medina and their fasting on Ashura, not the pagan Arabs

Because it makes a mockery of your assumption that the Jews followed a purely lunar calendar and that Ahsura coincided with Yom Kippur. If the Arabs performed intercalation then their calendar would not be synchronous with the Jewish one if the Jews did no intercalation (as you assume). Remember the Muslims used to follow the pagan Arab calendar until near end of the life of the Prophet {s}. 

 

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People from our side tend to be quick to say this is an innovation and what not, although this is very much up in the air and is debated among the scholars.

I made a post about this long ago, regarding the differing views on scholars historically on this topic.

Basically some of the views our ulama concluded:

- mustahab (with no conditions attached)

- mustahab to fast with the intention of grief

- makrouh

Now, some who said it was makrouh also said it would be mustahab to abstain from drinking until Asr time.

My view: follow your aalim and see what he says.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The narrator could have made a mistake as to why they were fasting, mixing up Passover with Yom Kippur. 

Another assumption to try to make sure reality fits your belief? Is Passover the day that the Jews escaped through the sea? The narrator is Ibn Abbas {r} and you are stating that he or someone in the chain didn't quote what the Jews said but what he himself thought was the reason? You are willing to accept that the hadith has a mistake but you insist on clinging onto the hadith?

Quote

Plus, I quoted your own Hadith from the words of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir that Allah initially mandated through the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم a fast on the Day of Ashura. What is your response?

Shia ahadith are contradictory on this subject. With some strongly condemning the fast. There are shia ahadith which say that when we have contradictory ahadith then we must accept the one which contradicts the Sunni ones. This could be because of taqiyyah, infiltration etc. This is one way for us to deal with the issue.

There may be no harm in believing that the fast existed and that the tragedy took place on an already holy day but the problem is many in the Sunni world use this fast and some fantasy stories about what happened to various prophets on that day to distract people away from the tragedy. This is a serious sin. Considering that the evidence for these stories is very weak. It is not the fast itself which is the problem, it is the stories that come with it and how they are used to create a day of celebration. I personally follow an opinion that the fast is probably prohibited.

Another thing to remember is that the Shia view is irrelevant for you. If a non-Muslim was showing you the flaws in your narrations that we have discussed, then you wont say "what about this shia hadith?".

Now how do you reconcile the contradictions in your books? Was this fast Jewish, Pagan, Christian? You may have noticed that I posted a hadith that the fast was moved to the 9th - how do you deal with that?

Contradictions are often a sign of fabrication.

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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42 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Remember the Muslims used to follow the pagan Arab calendar until near end of the life of the Prophet {s}. 

Proof?

And do you accept the fact that Yom Kippur of the Jewish calendar, before it was altered to a lunisolar calendar by Hillel II and the Sanhedrin, corresponds to Ashura? Tishrei is the first month and Yom Kippur is on the 10th day. Muharram is the first month and Ashura is on the 10th day. That's the bottom line

Let me also reiterate that there are still Jewish sects today which follow a lunar calendar. The Messianic Jews, for example, just commemorated Yom Kippur yesterday (August 30, 2020). Is it just a coincidence, according to you, that it happened to fall on the exact same day as Ashura 2020?

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36 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Another assumption to try to make sure reality fits your belief? Is Passover the day that the Jews escaped through the sea? The narrator is Ibn Abbas {r} and you are stating that he or someone in the chain didn't quote what the Jews said but what he himself thought was the reason? You are willing to accept that the hadith has a mistake but you insist on clinging onto the hadith?

It is obvious it was a minor mistake regarding the reason for why the Jews fast on Yom Kippur/Ashura. It was probably a mistake by one of the narrators, evidently the Arabs were not extremely well-versed in Judaism, which is not surprising. Consider the fact that Passover (15th Nisan) corresponds to our 15th Sha'ban, known as Nisf Sha'ban or Shab-e-Baraat. Nisan is the eighth month of the Hebrew civil calendar, and Sha'ban is the eighth month of our Islamic lunar calendar. It's quite clear there was a mix up, because traditionally Muslims have understood Nisf Sha'ban as a night in which deeds of the year are presented, and atonement is made for the past year. This is why many Muslims even fast and perform extra worship on that night. It is quite similar to Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement for Judaism. Muslims have been mistaken in mixing up the background of Nisf Sha'ban with Ashura, i.e., Ashura is meant to be the day of atonement, and Nisf Sha'ban is significant as the day Allah Most High delivered Bani Israel from Pharaoh.

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Shia ahadith are contradictory on this subject. With some strongly condemning the fast. There are shia ahadith which say that when we have contradictory ahadith then we must accept the one which contradicts the Sunni ones. This could be because of taqiyyah, infiltration etc. This is one way for us to deal with the issue.

Are you serious? Look how many problems this theory of yours presents. Firstly, it casts doubt on your entire Hadith corpus, now we cannot be certain if any Hadith is to be taken seriously and acted upon, or was stated under Taqiyah and therefore not valid.

Secondly, what is the need to do Taqiyah about something that is Nafl? Fasting on Ashura is optional and recommended, when were the Shi'ah ever historically persecuted because they refused to fast on Ashura?

Even among Sunni Muslims there are certain sections that do not practice things that are clearly from the Sunnah because they regard them as "Judaic". The Malikis dislike performing infant circumcision (which is the Sunnah, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم had Hasanayan رضى الله عنهما circumcised in their infancy, on the seventh day), they consider it a resemblance with Jews, hence why they circumcise their boys when they reach puberty (apparently still the normative practice in most of North Africa). Many Hanafis and others dislike wearing the Tayalisah, they regard it as resemblance with the Jewish tallit, even though Tayalisah is established from the Sunnah and adapted by Sahabah رضى الله عنهم as Imam Jalal-ud-Din as-Suyuti wrote an entire book on it (al-Ahadith Hisan fi Fadl at-Taylasan), and many prominent scholars especially of the Shafi'i school distinguished themselves by adapting the Tayalisah (notably Abu Dawud at-Tayalisi رحمة الله عليه)

Then you claim it is your principle that if you have contradictory Ahadith you discard the ones which match the Sunni ahadith. That is of course counter intuitive. One would think that since Sunni and Shi'ah Hadith are independent sources and witnesses to the Sunnah, where they corroborate each other it is added weight and strength to the historicity. This is why we say Ibn Saba must have certainly been a historical figure and not a fabrication, as his existence is corroborated in Shi'ah literature.

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There may be no harm in believing that the fast existed and that the tragedy took place on an already holy day but the problem is many in the Sunni world use this fast and some fantasy stories about what happened to various prophets on that day to distract people away from the tragedy.

You call this an academic argument? Firstly, you are casting aspersions on our motivation for fasting on Ashura without any concrete evidence. If it is granted that the tragedy of Karbala took place on an "already holy day", then according to the Shari'ah, does the tragedy nullify the holiness of that day? If a great tragedy occurred on Eid day, does that then mean Eid day is stripped of its original meaning and purpose?

You have also spilled the beans on the fact that you believe new meanings and significance can be added to the Religion of Islam after the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم

We believe the Religion was perfected and completed in the lifetime of the Prophet (5:3), and that he is the Seal of Prophets (33:40)

Evidently, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم fasted during Ashura (which you concede is a possibility), but he certainly did not engage in your rituals of azadari on that Day (which you also must necessarily concede).

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This is going to be my last post here because it is taking too much of my time and we are going off-topic. And you are ignoring a number of my objections and questions. E.g. the one about the 9th of Muharram. You can have the last word, and I hope I am not tempted to reply.  

2 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Proof?

Do you really think the Muslims used a different calendar to the Arabs even when they were a small group with no power? Isn't it sensible to believe that they continued to have the same months as the Arabs until intercalation was banned in the very late part of the Prophet's {s} life? You cannot simply assume that the Muslims had their own calendar and lived by it and that we have no evidence for it. 

But above all it's irrelevant because intercalation would have made the Jewish and Muslim calendars out of sync before the birth of the Prophet {s}.

9:36 says the months are 12 because the Arabs used to increase the number of Months. 

Tafsir of Maududi on 9:37: 

"This has been mentioned to refute the practice of nasi (v. 37) whereby the pagan Arabs increased the number of the months of a year to 13 or 14 to enable them to interpose in the calendar the forbidden month which had been made lawful by them."

"The pagan Arabs practiced nasi in two ways. Whenever it suited them, they would declare a prohibited month to be an ordinary month in which fighting, robbery and murder in retaliation were lawful for them. Then they would declare an ordinary month to be a prohibited month instead of this month in order to make up for the deficiency caused in the number of the prohibited months.

The other way of nasi was the addition of a month in order to harmonize the lunar with the solar year so that the Haj should always fall in the same season"

BTW don't forget that the Arabs and Jews performed intercalation in different ways. So don't say that they had the same calendar. 

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And do you accept the fact that Yom Kippur of the Jewish calendar, before it was altered to a lunisolar calendar by Hillel II and the Sanhedrin, corresponds to Ashura?

You are talking about something which happened 100's of years before Islam. How am I or anyone else supposed to know if at that time the Jewish and Arab calendars were in harmony? 

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Tishrei is the first month and Yom Kippur is on the 10th day. Muharram is the first month and Ashura is on the 10th day. That's the bottom line

As you know the Torah says Tishrei is the 7th month, you purposely used the civil calendar. Also I posed an article in this thread which says that maybe the fast of Yom Kippur is a latter addition to the text. And what evidence is there that Muharram was the 1st month pre-Islam? I haven't looked into it. Please enlighten us with evidence. I don't even know if Ashura was a concept prior to Karbala. Even if we accept that it was, what evidence is there that the two months occurred at the same time? You can't use those ahadith since we are disputing their authenticity.

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Let me also reiterate that there are still Jewish sects today which follow a lunar calendar. The Messianic Jews, for example, just commemorated Yom Kippur yesterday (August 30, 2020). Is it just a coincidence, according to you, that it happened to fall on the exact same day as Ashura 2020?

Why post this without a source? I know nothing about this group but a search says they are only a few decades old. Again we are talking about Arab Jews and I gave evidence that they practiced intercalation.

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It is obvious it was a minor mistake regarding the reason for why the Jews fast on Yom Kippur/Ashura. It was probably a mistake by one of the narrators, evidently the Arabs were not extremely well-versed in Judaism, which is not surprising. Consider the fact that Passover (15th Nisan) corresponds to our 15th Sha'ban, known as Nisf Sha'ban or Shab-e-Baraat. Nisan is the eighth month of the Hebrew civil calendar, and Sha'ban is the eighth month of our Islamic lunar calendar. It's quite clear there was a mix up, because traditionally Muslims have understood Nisf Sha'ban as a night in which deeds of the year are presented, and atonement is made for the past year. This is why many Muslims even fast and perform extra worship on that night. It is quite similar to Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement for Judaism. Muslims have been mistaken in mixing up the background of Nisf Sha'ban with Ashura, i.e., Ashura is meant to be the day of atonement, and Nisf Sha'ban is significant as the day Allah Most High delivered Bani Israel from Pharaoh.

This whole block of text is irrelevant and a red herring. The hadith says they were saved from Firaun. And that didn't happen on Passover - so why post about passover? I asked about this previously but you didn't answer and you didn't answer my other questions regarding this issue. So mistakes can appear in so called sahih hadith?

I am going to skip the part on Azadari and hadith methodology - it's going off-topic and I don't like writing prolifically. 

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If a great tragedy occurred on Eid day, does that then mean Eid day is stripped of its original meaning and purpose?

Eid is strongly established. This fast is not. There are many contradictions and errors in what is narrated. And in Shia books, some ahadith outright condemn this fast as the practice of the enemies of Imam Hussain {a}. 

It's late and I need to sleep. You can have the final say.

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@Cherub786 aka Cherry

@Muhammed Ali

Brothers - leys say Tishrei 10 = Muharram 10. The problem is that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) migrated in Rabi-Ul-Awal.

So "Ashur" could mean 10th Rabu-Ul-Awal. But wait there is more.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is said to have reached Medina between 12-16 Rabi-Ul-Awal. So the next "Ashura" would be Rabi-Us-Sani. 

So this myth is busted. 

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