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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ali yun waliullah in kalima/kalma/shahadah

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farhat abbas6

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Assalamualaikum. My friend is saying he will become shia but he wants proof from shia and sunni books, I have given him many refrences from sunni books, but I am left with a shia book that one of our imams are saying “la ila ha il lal la hu muhammad ur rasool Allah ali yun waliullah” if anyone can just give me any reference ill be thankful.(shia sources pls thanks)

(there are many references that imam Ali is rightly guided and his wilayat perfected the religion but that shahadah I cant find)

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On 8/23/2020 at 5:41 AM, farhat abbas6 said:

Assalamualaikum. My friend is saying he will become shia but he wants proof from shia and sunni books, I have given him many refrences from sunni books, but I am left with a shia book that one of our imams are saying “la ila ha il lal la hu muhammad ur rasool Allah ali yun waliullah” if anyone can just give me any reference ill be thankful.(shia sources pls thanks)

(there are many references that imam Ali is rightly guided and his wilayat perfected the religion but that shahadah I cant find)

I have a question. If عليٌ ولي الله is the third shahadah, does this not indicate that it's denial is kufr in the sense of expulsion from the circle of Islam and the Millat? After all, denial of the shahadatayn لا اله الا الله and محمد رسول الله is indisputably kufr that expels one from the circle of Islam and the Millat.

Secondly, by Aliun Waliullah is meant that sayyidina Ali كرم الله وجهه الكريم is the Wali in the political/administrative sense to whom absolute, unconditional obedience is required, and not merely in the sense that we Sunni Muslims regard him as Wali Allah (friend of Allah, sainthood). Since Sunnis do not believe in Aliun Waliullah according to the Shi'ite interpretation of that formula, does it not indicate that all Sunnis are disbelievers, non-Muslims?

Edited by Cherub786
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Salams @Cherub786 and @farhat abbas6.

From what i heard, i can't remember the sources, is that this part 'aliyun waliuallah' isn't a compulsory part of the shahadah, and so not saying doesn't put anything on you. I also heard that believing it to be a compulsory part is actually bad and so we should just think of it as a recommended thing to say. (i have bad memory so i don't know where i heard this, if i remember ill post it).

30 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

does it not indicate that all Sunnis are disbelievers, non-Muslims?

Anyone that believes that Allah is the one and only God and believes in the prophethood of Muhammed ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) are muslims. Regardless whichever sect you are.

[EDIT] But people who do go actively go against the teachings of islam under the banner of islam, that's a different story and a separate issue

Edited by ShiaofAli12
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13 minutes ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Anyone that believes that Allah is the one and only God and believes in the prophethood of Muhammed ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) are muslims. Regardless whichever sect you are.

I certainly and whole-heartedly agree with this statement. I do not regard any sect or group which professes the Shahadatayn to be non-Muslim, including the Qadianis, Zikris, Mahmoud Taha and his followers, Quranists, and so on and so forth. Some have accused me of having Murji'ite tendencies in this regard, but in the issue of takfir, I believe too much caution can never be a bad thing. That doesn't mean I am giving a free pass to all manner of deviated and heretical sects, but from a legal point of view, I refuse to make takfir of any individual or group that profess the Shahadatayn.

Edited by Cherub786
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Walaikum as salam brother. The question is not really clear.

If you mean tashahhud in prayers, then no we don't include it and it isn't permitted to according to our fuqaha.

If you mean the adhan, it isn't part of the adhan. Most contemporary fuqaha have permitted reciting it as a supplement, but it isn't a part of the adhan itself. 

If you mean the shahadah that one professes to become a muslim, then no this line is not included in it. Again, it is often recited as a supplement to affirm one's belief in the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

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On 8/23/2020 at 5:41 PM, farhat abbas6 said:

(shia sources pls thanks)

Behaar ul Anwaar. The hadith you will have to find in it. The Kalma is written on the arsh and the door of heaven.

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A man came to Imam Reza (عليه السلام) and asked some questions regarding the Almighty Allah. Then, The man stood up and kissed the head of the Imam ((عليه السلام).) and then said,
أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لا إِلَهَ إِلا الله
وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ الله
وَأَنَّ عَلِيّاً وَصِيُّ رَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَالْقَيِّمُ بَعْدَهُ بِمَا قَامَ بِهِ رَسُولُ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه)
وَأَنَّكُمُ الائِمَّةُ الصَّادِقُونَ
وَأَنَّكَ الْخَلَفُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِمْ
Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح Mirat Ul Uqool (page 308/ volume1)
 
image.thumb.png.80f1675904f37b6c1d6bc2edcfd67796.png
 
 
Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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hadith-2.JPG.34df538581969967ba5d417f49963f1b.JPG

This Hadith e Qudsi quoted by Sheikh Sadooq in Kamal Ud Deen

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says the one who doesn't testify that I am ila and wahid, or he testifies to this but doesn't testify that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is his messenger and Abd, or he testifies to it but doesn't testify that Ali is my caliph, or testifies to it but doesn't testify that Aima (عليه السلام) from his progeny are Hujjajullah, he denied my blessings, he degraded me, and he rejected the verses and the books. 

Thus when you convert, its obligatory to say Third testimony along with that of testimony of Aima (عليه السلام)

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 وعن الصادق عليه السلام أنه قال: الكلم الطيب قول المؤمن " لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله علي ولي الله وخليفة رسول الله ".

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "Kalima Tayyaba of Momin is La ilaha illalah Muhamamd ur Rasool ullah Ali un wali ullah wa khalifa tur Rasool ullah"

Tafseer E Qummi تفسير القمي - علي بن إبراهيم القمي - ج ٢ - الصفحة ٢٠٨.

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It has been related that Qasim Bin Muwaiya said to the Holy Imam Ja’far Al Sadiq (عليه السلام) : 


‘The people of the Sunnah relate a Hadeeth about Me’raaj that when the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was taken on Me’raaj he saw written upon the Throne – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Abu Bakr As Siddiq’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Glory be to 
Allah (azwj)! They have changed everything, even this?’ He said: ‘Yes!’ 

The Holy Imam (عليه السلام) continued: ‘When Allah (azwj) the High created the Throne, He (azwj) wrote upon it – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when He (azwj) the High Created the Chair, He (azwj) wrote upon it –There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when He (azwj) Created the Tablet, He (azwj) wrote on it - He (azwj) wrote upon it – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when He (azwj) the High Created Israfeel (the angel) he (azwj) wrote upon his forehead - There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when He (azwj) Created the heavens he (azwj) wrote on its fringes – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when he (azwj) the Exalted Created the earth He (azwj) wrote on its layers - There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when he (azwj) the High Created the sun he wrote on it - There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. And when He (azwj) Created the moon He (azwj) wrote upon it - There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and Ali is the Commander of the believers. 


Then the Holy Imam (عليه السلام)
added: 


Whenever any one of you says – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah – he must say – Ali is the Commander of the believers’.

BIHAR UL ANWAAR – VOL 27 CH1 H1

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Whenever any one of you says – There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah – he must say – Ali is the Commander of the believers’.

This sounds like a hubeali.com translation.

فليقل does not translate to 'he must say'

فإذا قال أحدكم. does not translate to 'Whenever' any one of you says

Edited by Mahdavist
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يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}

[Pickthal 5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

-----

فَأُلْقِيَ السَّحَرَةُ سُجَّدًا قَالُوا آمَنَّا بِرَبِّ هَارُونَ وَمُوسَىٰ {70}

[Pickthal 20:70] Then the wizards were (all) flung down prostrate, crying: We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.

-----

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {56}

[Pickthal 5:56] And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious.

-----

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

[Pickthal 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

-----

I can't get into Legal/Fiqhi/Jurisprudential - Legal Definition.

However, We in our Fundamental of Faith do believe in the following. Qur'an 5:67 above means neither the Complete Message is delivered or accepted with out it. 

Fundamental of Faith

Divine Unity( Tawhid )

Prophethood

Divine Leadership( Imamant) 

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

This sounds like a hubeali.com translation.

فليقل does not translate to 'he must say'

فإذا قال أحدكم. does not translate to 'Whenever' any one of you says

I think this already has been answered by Syed Hamid Ali Jafri (Wilayat Media uk)

Zarq Naqvi etc

Plus Allamah Taj Ud deen Haideri Translated it that way.

And many Fuqaha used this hadith like Allamah Baqir Majlisi used to prove third testimony in Azaan is Mustahab.

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20 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And many Fuqaha used this hadith like Allamah Baqir Majlisi used to prove third testimony in Azaan is Mustahab

I am not contesting the hadith, I am just informing you that when you copy paste attempted translations from such sources then keep in mind that they are (either deliberately or through ignorance) making errors that impact the conclusions one may draw from that narration.

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11 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

The Kalma is written on the arsh and the door of heaven.

As salaamun aleikum,

How should this be understood since Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesnt have a body to be sat on an arsh, and as far as ive understood, the door of heaven isnt a literal door..

Thanks!

W/s

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16 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

How should this be understood since Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesnt have a body to be sat on an arsh, and as far as ive understood, the door of heaven isnt a literal door..

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) sitting on the throne isn't literal though. But the chair and the throne exists literally.

Ibn Babuwayh, from Ahmad Bin Al Hassan Al Qataan, from Abdul Rahman Bin Muhammad Al Hasny, from Abu Ja’far Ahmad Bin Isa Bin Abu Maryam Al Ajaly, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad Bin Abdullah Bin Ziyad Al Arzamy, from Ali Bin Hatim Al Manqary, from Al Mufazzal Bin Umar who said,

‘I asked Abu Abdullah (asws) about the Throne and the Chair, what are these two?’ So he (asws) said: ‘The Throne in a perspective – it is the whole of the creation, and the Chair is its container (of the creation apart from the Throne).

And in another perspective, the Throne – it is the Knowledge which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Notified His Prophets, and His Rasools, and His Proofs. And the Chair – it is the Knowledge which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) did not Notify anyone from His Prophets, and His Rasools, and His Proofs’.

معاني األخبار: 29 /1.

From Al Hassan Al Masny, from the one who mentioned it,

(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (asws) having said: ‘Abu Zarr said: ‘O Rasool-Allah (saws)! What is the best of what is Revealed upon you?’ He (saws) said: 

‘The Verse of the Chair. What are the seven skies and the seven firmaments in the Chair, except like the ring thrown in the desert, then the excess of the Chair is like the (excess of the) desert over the ring’.

تفسير العّياشي 1 :137 /455

Ihtijaj Al-Tabarsy, in a Hadeeth from Al-Saadiq (asws), and a man had asked him, saying to him, ‘The Chair is greater or the Throne?’

He (asws) said: ‘Allah (عزّ وجلّ) Created everything inside the Chair, apart from His Throne, for it is greater than to be encompassed by the Chair’.

352:االحتجاج

Ahmad Bin Idrees, from Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Safwan Bin Yahya, from Aasim Bin 
Humeyd, 
(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (asws) having said: ‘I discussed with Abu Abdullah (asws) regarding what they (reporters) are reporting of the sighting. So he (asws)
said: ‘The sun is a one part from the seventy of the light of the Chair, and the Chair is one part of seventy parts from the Light of the Throne, and the Throne s one part from seventy parts from the Light of the Veil, and the Veil is one part from the seventy part from the Light of the Curtain. So if they were truthful, so let them be filling their eyes from the sun where there is no cloud under it’.

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Tawheed (Oneness of Allah عزّ وجلّ) CH 9 H 7

http://www.wilayatmission.org/EngBooks/Asma/Asma.pdf

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3 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

How should this be understood since Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesnt have a body to be sat on an arsh, and as far as ive understood, the door of heaven isnt a literal door..

Thanks!

W/s

The arsh is a border, a final area for the angels to be in, beyond which they can not go (sidratul muntahaa). The pen and the book are situated here. Of course the arsh is not Allah's living room (maazallah). Allah has no shape or form or container to be contained in nor does He need a place, any place, nor time, He is limitless and free of limitations and needs. As for gates of heaven (and gates of hell) I can not say, I have not seen them. Its just what I read that the sentence/kalma the OP seeks is written there according to a hadith in that book.

Personally the whole kalma/sentence thing is a man made issue and trivial. What matters is what is in the heart, not what is on the tongue or what the tongue turns to sound waves or what it chooses to exclude. It shouldn't matter but to some it does. If the tongue says "Ali is my guardian" but the actions rather prove that he is of Muawiya's flock, would anyone be surprised. Today we have throngs of Muslim traders and shopkeepers who say "I believe in Muhammad" or "I love Muhammad" but their actions prove that they follow and love Shaitaan because they are enveloped in corruption and injustice and obviously do not fear God or believe in God, His justice, the afterlife and the chastisement of hell fire. So its all a waste of time these "sentences" / kalmaat. They are for wanabe believers, the armchair clerics seeking to win debates, not seeking truth.

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I am not contesting the hadith, I am just informing you that when you copy paste attempted translations from such sources then keep in mind that they are (either deliberately or through ignorance) making errors that impact the conclusions one may draw from that narration.

When A Faqih uses it for Either Azaan Iqamah or namaz, definitely he translates its like whenever you say , you must say

So that translation isn't incorrect since fuqaha have understood it that way.

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1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

When A Faqih uses it for Either Azaan Iqamah or namaz, definitely he translates its like whenever you say , you must say

Of course not. If they did they wouldn't conclude it to be an istihbab, rather it would be wajib. 

The arabic is quite clear, nobody would make such a basic mistranslation except:

1. Someone with very poor arabic

2. Someone who is dishonest and trying to mislead non arabic speaking readers

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2145761155_Screenshot_20200828-221045_SamsungInternet.thumb.jpg.969579d75d1a0be0da5b56bdc7dda413.jpg

Also check this since you know, you can explain better

On 8/27/2020 at 10:20 AM, Mahdavist said:

Of course not. If they did they wouldn't conclude it to be an istihbab, rather it would be wajib. 

The arabic is quite clear, nobody would make such a basic mistranslation except:

1. Someone with very poor arabic

2. Someone who is dishonest and trying to mislead non arabic speaking readers

Well maybe since i don't know arabic. But if you could write real translation here with a bit of explanation, it would help me and others as well.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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On 8/23/2020 at 7:41 AM, farhat abbas6 said:

Assalamualaikum. My friend is saying he will become shia but he wants proof from shia and sunni books, I have given him many refrences from sunni books, but I am left with a shia book that one of our imams are saying “la ila ha il lal la hu muhammad ur rasool Allah ali yun waliullah” if anyone can just give me any reference ill be thankful.(shia sources pls thanks)

(there are many references that imam Ali is rightly guided and his wilayat perfected the religion but that shahadah I cant find)

That doesn’t prove “Shiaism”

it proves only in the necessity of “wilayah” (which is it not particularly a Shia concept.  
Even Sunnis acknowledge Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is a wali of God. 

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It is often argued By Shias:

How can the Prophet (S) who has laid the foundation for almost every aspect of life (from eating, sleeping and walking) to neglect mentioning anything about his (S) successorship.  Logically, he must have mentioned something about who should come after him (S).  
 

My response:

the doctrine of Imamat as believed by Shias practically conflicts with the doctrine of the finality of the Prophet (S).  

Essential to the very message of the Prophet (S) was was the emphasis placed on his finality, the fact that he (S) will be the last and the seal of all prophets and messengers.  To mention  that another person is to take over his position would have been conflicting with his message of finality.  That someone is to take over his status, his position, and his role, would have appeared to be contradictory to his message.  Therefore the Shia doctrine of Imamat is an inherently flawed doctrine and is clearly man made.

I am now becoming more convinced about this.  
 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 9/1/2020 at 1:57 PM, eThErEaL said:

it proves only in the necessity of “wilayah” (which is it not particularly a Shia concept.  

 

On 9/1/2020 at 2:10 PM, eThErEaL said:

It is often argued By Shias:

How can the Prophet (S) who has laid the foundation for almost every aspect of life (from eating, sleeping and walking) to neglect mentioning anything about his (S) successorship.  Logically, he must have mentioned something about who should come after him (S).

Please go through the article to know what exactly is the shi'i belief:

Quote

Imamah, in the sense of religious and political guardianship (Wilayah) of the twelve Imams ((عليه السلام).), is a pivotal cornerstone of the Shia school of thought, the school of the Ahl Al-Bayt ((عليه السلام).). According to the Shia, Imamah is a part of the Usul Al-Din (fundamental principles of faith); however, the Sunnis, though they believe in a certain type of Imamah, nevertheless, place it as part of the Furu Al-Din (subsidiary aspects of religion) and not the Usul. 

https://www.al-islam.org/al-taqrib/number-5-november-2009/imamah-and-wilayah-allamah-sharaf-al-dins-approach-conciliation-0

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On 9/1/2020 at 2:10 PM, eThErEaL said:

It is often argued By Shias:

How can the Prophet (S) who has laid the foundation for almost every aspect of life (from eating, sleeping and walking) to neglect mentioning anything about his (S) successorship.  Logically, he must have mentioned something about who should come after him (S).  

I don't know which Shia you've been arguing with. We don't need to ask the above question because we already have several hadith from the prophet where he has explicitly named Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, both in our own books as well as those of the ahl us sunnah. 

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A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ) in his (last) illness asked me to call Abu Bakr, her father, and her brother too, so that he might write a document, for he feared that someone else might be desirous (of succeeding him) and that some claimant may say:I have better claim to it, whereas Allah and the Faithful do not substantiate the claim of anyone but that of Abu Bakr.(Sahih Muslim 6181)

The case is close, Succession have already declared to Abu Bakr, but then why did we need Saqifa in first place if Prophet (saws) already choosed Abu Bakr? And why to declare in his last illness?

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 9/1/2020 at 2:10 PM, eThErEaL said:

My response:

the doctrine of Imamat as believed by Shias practically conflicts with the doctrine of the finality of the Prophet (S).  

Essential to the very message of the Prophet (S) was was the emphasis placed on his finality, the fact that he (S) will be the last and the seal of all prophets and messengers.  To mention  that another person is to take over his position would have been conflicting with his message of finality.  That someone is to take over his status, his position, and his role, would have appeared to be contradictory to his message.  Therefore the Shia doctrine of Imamat is an inherently flawed doctrine and is clearly man made.

I am now becoming more convinced about this.

No you’re just delusional like always, it doesn’t not contradict the final prophethood of Muhammad.

a prophet is sent either to come and confirm the truth that is contained within a tampered Scripture (which what John the Baptist did and also Jesus) or prophet who is a messenger of God (who came with a new or slightly new Sunnah like Jesus did) then a person succeeds them so that the message may not get lost nor the people go astray; in prophet Muhammad’s case he came with a new law. Further more for the prophet Muhammad, he is responsible for governing and implementing sharia law and taking care of the orphans, other people’s rights, and etc, do really think after the prophet working so hard to establish sharia of Islam and a peaceful society he is just gonna leave that all and say you appoint a leader amongst yourselves....? As you can clearly see, chaos would happen if that was the case. The prophet appointing imam Ali exposed truth from falsehood. The role of the imams is to protect the Sunnah and message of the prophet and protect what he has established in the state they don’t not receive any new revelation LIKE THE PROPHETS OR MESSENGERS.

plus the context of ghadir khumm is clear as daylight despite all the “arguments”, only a kaffir would deny it.  History shows why successor is needed, look at Christianity with Paul vs James the Just and Peter.  Mathew 16 clearly shows authority and knowledge was passed on from Christ to Simon Peter and again in John’s gospel Jesus appoints Simon Peter as shepherd for his flock yet the Christians went astray taking Paul as a guardian.

Imamate is all over the Quran, you are just blind. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 2:16 PM, Mahdavist said:

I don't know which Shia you've been arguing with. We don't need to ask the above question because we already have several hadith from the prophet where he has explicitly named Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, both in our own books as well as those of the ahl us sunnah. 

It is explicit enough for 3% of the world population.

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On 9/2/2020 at 2:16 PM, Mahdavist said:

I don't know which Shia you've been arguing with. We don't need to ask the above question because we already have several hadith from the prophet where he has explicitly named Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, both in our own books as well as those of the ahl us sunnah. 

Which Shia?

just telling you all what we hear a lot!

is it not commonly argued that the Prophet (S) would dictate all affairs and should therefore not leave out guidance on who should succeed him (S)? 

In any case,

no, it is explicit for Shias who believe it ought to be explicit.  Shias have to believe it is explicit.  But is it in fact explicit?  No.  

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On 9/1/2020 at 2:10 PM, eThErEaL said:

the doctrine of Imamat as believed by Shias practically conflicts with the doctrine of the finality of the Prophet (S).  

Essential to the very message of the Prophet (S) was was the emphasis placed on his finality, the fact that he (S) will be the last and the seal of all prophets and messengers.  To mention  that another person is to take over his position would have been conflicting with his message of finality.  That someone is to take over his status, his position, and his role, would have appeared to be contradictory to his message.  Therefore the Shia doctrine of Imamat is an inherently flawed doctrine and is clearly man made.

I am now becoming more convinced about this.  

The Holy Ahlul Bayt AS were tasked with protecting the message of Prophet Muhammad SA.

He SA wished for the Muslims to refer to his Ahl al-Bayt AS as a reliable, pure and inerrant source for his Sunnah.

He SA wanted us to love and respect them and take explanations of Islamic doctrine, practices, hadith and tafsir from them.

How many times did you see this pamphlet posted at ShiaChat?  https://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/files/family.pdf   

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5 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

The Holy Ahlul Bayt AS were tasked with protecting the message of Prophet Muhammad SA.

He SA wished for the Muslims to refer to his Ahl al-Bayt AS as a reliable, pure and inerrant source for his Sunnah.

He SA wanted us to love and respect them and take explanations of Islamic doctrine, practices, hadith and tafsir from them.

How many times did you see this pamphlet posted at ShiaChat?  https://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/files/family.pdf   

What you are saying is it not particularly Or specifically Shiite.  Every Muslim would / should naturally affirm that.  
do you disagree?  If you feel it is particularly Shiite then perhaps there ought to be. A debate of definitions or terms about who or what it means to be Shia.  

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On 9/2/2020 at 3:37 PM, Abu Nur said:

A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger ( ‌صلی ‌اللہ ‌علیہ ‌وسلم ‌ ) in his (last) illness asked me to call Abu Bakr, her father, and her brother too, so that he might write a document, for he feared that someone else might be desirous (of succeeding him) and that some claimant may say:I have better claim to it, whereas Allah and the Faithful do not substantiate the claim of anyone but that of Abu Bakr.(Sahih Muslim 6181)

The case is close, Succession have already declared to Abu Bakr, but then why did we need Saqifa in first place if Prophet (saws) already choosed Abu Bakr? And why to declare in his last illness?

I don’t know know what Sunnis have to say of such a hadith.  I don’t know what type of contextual treatment (and therefore interpretation) they give such a hadith.  Perhaps @Cherub786 can fill in this detail??

Edited by eThErEaL
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