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In the Name of God بسم الله

Muharram Rituals and Superstitions

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Many maraje` permit tatbir, zanjeer/qama zani, and other forms of lamentations. Many of us have seen Ayatullah Basheer al-Najafi's video of him encouraging these acts and I was personally also a staunch supporter of it at one point.

However over the years I have backtracked even to the point where I've started questioning our chest-beating rituals. There are many narrations of the Prophet himself weeping over his grandson's fate, even appearing in one of his wives' dreams grief-stricken and with dusty clothes (in the famous hadith al-qarurah). We even have narrations of the Ahlul Bayt encouraging weeping/eulogizing for the tragedy of Karbala and how they will be rewarded for it by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is indeed a teaching of the Ahlul Bayt. But is there any evidence for the act of chest-beating itself being a rewarded practice? Was it performed by the Ahlul Bayt themselves in any way similar to how it's done today (in a synchronized congregation)?

I've heard many argue that striking oneself in grief is permissible in Islam. But the question is not if it's a permissible practice, but if it's a practice that's rewarded. As someone who has walked over 80 kms from Najaf to Karbala in the past in a very physically painful journey, only to find out that the walk itself doesn't really have any basis in Islam, I started to reflect on many of our rituals for sayed al-shuhada'. In my opinion, it seems all of these acts are simply permissible, but we have no evidence that they are rewarded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) other than the hope that the Ahlul Bayt may grant us intercession on the Day of Judgement.

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If you insist. My criteria is pretty simple. Whatever that was conducted by the 4th Imam should be done. That would omit fire walking, mud bathing, dog imitations, lion plays, zuljinah dua, alam sajda

We have had differences and disrespect for Azadari rituals like Tatbir but now criticism has come to normal chest beating. Tomorrow you will hear why cry for Hussain or recite poetry or hold Majalis.

No. In some cultures people wear white to funerals and in others they wear black. In some cultures people sit on the floor in a place of mourning, in other cultures you can sit on chairs and sofas. 

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16 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Indo-Pak matam is not crazy, it's lit.

It’s crazy; normal Matam is what is ancient and appropriate, obviously we will have terrorists in this thread who will have double standards (you know who you are) when it comes to Matam alone, Jurists have spoken out against such style which is a bad image.

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WHY? Do you ALL fall for the Distractions Ever Year during the First 10 Days of Muharram. This is a time to Focus on the Tragedy, your plan to Serve. I don't care if you are 5 or 50 you may not get this chance next year. Plan and execute your Plan. 

Leave them( Modern day Khawarij)  to their game- come back after the 10th and handle it. 

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As usual in these types of discussions you have two groups. One that opts to follow the sunnah of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and the other that chooses to invent their own customs (using the most extraordinary stretches of qiyaas to try and justify them)

Whether it's methods of supplication, 'aza of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or various other topics, the split always seems to be of the same manner and between the same individuals.

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54 minutes ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

WHY? Do you ALL fall for the Distractions Ever Year during the First 10 Days of Muharram. This is a time to Focus on the Tragedy, your plan to Serve. I don't care if you are 5 or 50 you may not get this chance next year. Plan and execute your Plan. 

Leave them( Modern day Khawarij)  to their game- come back after the 10th and handle it. 

 

Dude relax. You just expect people to shut up and accept things simply because it’s the first ten days. This ten day phenomenon is fairly new as well. It used to be a 2 day thing in the past. I could understand your amber alert if this was Ashura or the night before. But it makes zero difference if this is discussed during the first ten nights or on eid.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

It’s crazy; normal Matam is what is ancient and appropriate, obviously we will have terrorists in this thread who will have double standards (you know who you are) when it comes to Matam alone, Jurists have spoken out against such style which is a bad image.

Who are you calling terrorists? 

Which jurist have said against it? Majority follow Sayed Ali Sistani. Please post if you have something from him. 

Edited by Sirius_Bright
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5 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

And their Muqallad are okay with it. So ideally no one should have problem. 

As long as everyone is honest about the fact that it doesn't come from the teachings of the aimmah (عليه السلام), then yes I don't see a problem. This way it's clear to everyone and the people can choose whether they want to follow the path of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) or not.

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8 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Who are you calling terrorists? 

If you look around you would know who.

10 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Which jurist have said against it? Majority follow Sayed Ali Sistani. Please post if you have something from him. 

I recall al-khoei giving a fatwa about extreme chest beating.  If I  find the fatwa I’ll post here 

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8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

-Various aimmah (عليه السلام)

-Holding majalis/attending majalis where the events of karbala and affairs related to the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) were revived and narrated and poetry was recited

https://www.al-islam.org/forty-hadith-on-azadari/ahadith-traditions#1-inferno-husayni-love

So it seems like you and @786:) agree on azadari DOs and DONTs:
 

DO:
majlis/lectures

Possible with certain criteria:
poetry

DONT:
everything else

 

Given the general rule in Shia Islam that everything is permitted unless expressly forbidden AND none of the Aimmah put any restrictions on azadari, I am curious what gives you that right?

For example, @786:) considers voting for just ruler to be azadari - no problem
kids in US hold a candle-light vigil on 6th Muharram for Hz. Ali Asghar (عليه السلام) - no problem

What and who has given you the right to define and confine azadari?

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8 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So it seems like you and @786:) agree on azadari DOs and DONTs:
 

DO:
majlis/lectures

Possible with certain criteria:
poetry

DONT:
everything else

 

Given the general rule in Shia Islam that everything is permitted unless expressly forbidden AND none of the Aimmah put any restrictions on azadari, I am curious what gives you that right?

For example, @786:) considers voting for just ruler to be azadari - no problem
kids in US hold a candle-light vigil on 6th Muharram for Hz. Ali Asghar (عليه السلام) - no problem

What and who has given you the right to define and confine azadari?

How do you interpret the hadith of being an ornament for Ahlulbayt?

ornament: a thing used to make something look more attractive but usually having no practical purpose, especially a small object such as a figurine. Source: Oxford dictionary 

So now you tell me if any filters can or cannot be applied using the hadith. “It’s subjective” is a weak response as cutting open a baby’s head is not attracting anyone towards Ahlulbayt.

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13 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So it seems like you and @786:) agree on azadari DOs and DONTs:

Not exactly. I simply differentiate between the sunnah of the aimmah (عليه السلام) and the inventions of the people. 

Whether one wants to follow the ahlulbayt or make up their own rituals is their problem, as long as they're honest and transparent about what they are doing. 

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2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

If you look around you would know who.

I recall al-khoei giving a fatwa about extreme chest beating.  If I  find the fatwa I’ll post here 

Please share. I’ve never really seen an issue with normal chest beating but it’s hard to draw the line. Some even take their shirts off and it becomes a flex-a-thon. Interested to see the reasonings Khoei used to prohibit it.

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15 minutes ago, 786:) said:

How do you interpret the hadith of being an ornament for Ahlulbayt?

ornament: a thing used to make something look more attractive but usually having no practical purpose, especially a small object such as a figurine. Source: Oxford dictionary 

So now you tell me if any filters can or cannot be applied using the hadith. “It’s subjective” is a weak response as cutting open a baby’s head is not attracting anyone towards Ahlulbayt.

You had a simple task - come up with a list of DOs in azadari and you came up to "vote". I gave you a clean slate to start with - everything that is happening in the name of azadari is wrong, now fix it and you couldnt get past 1 line.

You are simply unqualified to discuss anything related to azadari - good or bad.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You had a simple task - come up with a list of DOs in azadari and you came up to "vote". I gave you a clean slate to start with - everything that is happening in the name of azadari is wrong, now fix it and you couldnt get past 1 line.

You are simply unqualified to discuss anything related to azadari - good or bad.

Struck a nerve? Lol it’s okay dude. I would find it hard to be on the pro-baby tatbir side too just to save face. I did not expect a decent conversation with you. Every time I am to answer your repetitive questions, but when I ask you one it’s suddenly about qualifications. If there are no rules around azadari there should be no qualifications to talk about it right?
 

You’re simply trying to use some sort of dialogue dominance in your approach to shut me up, but it’s not going to work. If you don’t like the thread or concern then you don’t have to participate. Read the first thread. You haven’t added anything of value to it. Simply concluded that I am not qualified to speak. What a big boy answer. You should have bigger things to do right now than to busy yourself with Shiachat.

Edited by 786:)
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1 minute ago, 786:) said:

Struck a nerve? Lol it’s okay dude. I would find it hard to be on the pro-baby tatbir side to just to save face. I did not expect a decent conversation with you. Every time I am to answer your repetitive questions, but when I ask you one it’s suddenly about qualifications. If there are no rules around azadari there should be no qualifications to talk about it right?

What nerve did you strike? I am still laughing that you think Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) voted.

As for qualifications, it is not limited to azadari but everything in life that unlearned should keep their opinions to themselves or they come out with ridiculous ideas such as "Imam Sajjad voted" examples. In case you don't recall, your statements were "do azadari as 4th Imam". I asked for a list and you said, "vote for a just leader". Either your first statement is wrong or your list of DOs is full of it.

You still make me laugh :)

 

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29 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Not exactly. I simply differentiate between the sunnah of the aimmah (عليه السلام) and the inventions of the people. 

Whether one wants to follow the ahlulbayt or make up their own rituals is their problem, as long as they're honest and transparent about what they are doing. 

Here is a reference to a book on Karbala with a few sections devoted to Azadari & Innovation.

Understanding Karbala: Azadari & Innovation

At the very least, azadari list is:

DO (from the book)

Lectures/Majlis
Poetry

  • salam
  • soz
  • mersiya
  • nohay

Crying

Matam - on the spur

Matam - organized

Taboot

Taziyah

Juloos (Procession)

Zuljana

Deshelved hair

Black clothes

Azakhana (Mourning house) at home

Drums - (happens in Iraq mostly)


It would behoove you and others to do some research before forming opinions on any topic let alone azadari.

I could have posted the reference and the list 2 days ago but I wanted to highlight the ignorance of OP and how people fall for it. I will address his original post next.

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9 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I am not even going to waste my time replying to that.

Nerve struck? Based on your responses on this thread, you shouldn't be responding on this thread at all.

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On 8/19/2020 at 11:49 AM, 786:) said:

Do the ulema do enough to clean up the baseless rituals and superstitions that come with Muharram? I feel they are very staunch when it comes to certain fiqhi matters but then very lenient and enabling when it comes to Muharram practices and superstitions. Everyone’s thoughts welcomed. If you feel defensive or think this is some Wahhabi post, please do not participate.

Time to end this discussion.

Our ulema do plenty on plenty of things. 

There are new and what some may consider bizarre rituals that creep into Muharram rituals. Most of them work themselves out or are so trivial that they do not warrant their attention. If 10 out 300,000,000 people crawl - who cares. Forming an opinion on this topic would give it more attention than the act would get in itself.

Someone makes a video of 1 person crawling and you make it seem like the entire 300,000,000 millions are on their way to deviancy.

Let's take tatbir - may be 1% do it, 89% ignore it but then there are those 10% who are hell-bent on 'saving' shias from shias because they know what is right for azadari. But when given the choice, they come up with "voting" as a form of azadari.

These things are nothing but a ruse to take away from mourning Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Its akin to raising the Quran on spears. Pointing fingers and criticizing everything happens every year and unfortunately there are some shia who fall for it much like the shias in Siffin.

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6 hours ago, Jaabir said:

Many maraje` permit tatbir, zanjeer/qama zani, and other forms of lamentations. Many of us have seen Ayatullah Basheer al-Najafi's video of him encouraging these acts and I was personally also a staunch supporter of it at one point.

However over the years I have backtracked even to the point where I've started questioning our chest-beating rituals. There are many narrations of the Prophet himself weeping over his grandson's fate, even appearing in one of his wives' dreams grief-stricken and with dusty clothes (in the famous hadith al-qarurah). We even have narrations of the Ahlul Bayt encouraging weeping/eulogizing for the tragedy of Karbala and how they will be rewarded for it by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is indeed a teaching of the Ahlul Bayt. But is there any evidence for the act of chest-beating itself being a rewarded practice? Was it performed by the Ahlul Bayt themselves in any way similar to how it's done today (in a synchronized congregation)?

I've heard many argue that striking oneself in grief is permissible in Islam. But the question is not if it's a permissible practice, but if it's a practice that's rewarded. As someone who has walked over 80 kms from Najaf to Karbala in the past in a very physically painful journey, only to find out that the walk itself doesn't really have any basis in Islam, I started to reflect on many of our rituals for sayed al-shuhada'. In my opinion, it seems all of these acts are simply permissible, but we have no evidence that they are rewarded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) other than the hope that the Ahlul Bayt may grant us intercession on the Day of Judgement.

My advice to you is not gauging "reward" as a deciding factor in (not)doing azadari.

There is a famous narration of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) something along these lines - there are 3 types of worshippers. 1) worships out of fear, this is worship of slaves; 2) worships for reward, this is a greedy person's worship; 3) worships out of love and because he deems Allah worship-worthy, this is a free man's worship.

Apply the same to azadari. Dont do azadari for reward or fear but because of love of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

If you were after reward in the walk, then know that Imam Jaffer (عليه السلام) has said that every step taken for azadari has the reward of 1000 hajj (paraphrasing). But it is and should be much more than that. The basis for the walk is love of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). It would be unfortunate if you did the walk for reward rather than love. 

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5 hours ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

WHY? Do you ALL fall for the Distractions Ever Year during the First 10 Days of Muharram. This is a time to Focus on the Tragedy, your plan to Serve. I don't care if you are 5 or 50 you may not get this chance next year. Plan and execute your Plan. 

Leave them( Modern day Khawarij)  to their game- come back after the 10th and handle it. 

 

Happens every year like clockwork. I call them Azadari termites :)

Its no different to raising the Quran on spears.

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21 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Here is a reference to a book on Karbala with a few sections devoted to Azadari & Innovation.

Understanding Karbala: Azadari & Innovation

Thanks for sharing the article brother. I have read it, and my answers to your questions are the same as before. 

Our guideline is the sunnah of the aimmah (عليه السلام), and the aimmah (عليه السلام) mourned in the manner that I previously described to you (as documented in narrations).

If someone wants to use Ayesha or Mutawakkil as their guides (examples given in your article) then they are free to do so as long as they are honest and transparent about who they are taking their sunnah from. 

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17 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Here is a reference to a book on Karbala with a few sections devoted to Azadari & Innovation.

Understanding Karbala: Azadari & Innovation

At the very least, azadari list is:

DO (from the book)

Lectures/Majlis
Poetry

  • salam
  • soz
  • mersiya
  • nohay

Crying

Matam - on the spur

Matam - organized

Taboot

Taziyah

Juloos (Procession)

Zuljana

Deshelved hair

Black clothes

Azakhana (Mourning house) at home

Drums - (happens in Iraq mostly)


It would behoove you and others to do some research before forming opinions on any topic let alone azadari.

I could have posted the reference and the list 2 days ago but I wanted to highlight the ignorance of OP and how people fall for it. I will address his original post next.

So you post an article as a reference for your list then add on to the list from your own conjecture. The article only lists majlis, poetry, matam, and taboot/taziya. Not sure how you got the others, but we’ll just assume dressing up horses with food colored cloth asking haajat from it is a Sunnah for now.
By the way, did you even read the article? The justification given for matam was that matam was performed during the funeral of Ahmad ibn Hanbal...solid proof. For taziyas he states a hadith of the Prophet in which the Prophet instructs a person to draw lines in the ground in reference to his dead parents graves as the individual had no knowledge of their graves. Not exactly a sound justification to make zaris and prostrating to them and asking for haajat. Your attempt is underwhelming.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, 786:) said:

The article only lists majlis, poetry, matam, and taboot/taziya

The example given for ta'ziyah was Ayesha playing with dolls and the example given for ma'tam was Mutawakkil holding a mourning ceremony for Ahmed ibn Hanbal. Later on in the same book a more concrete example for ma'tam is given (women of Banu Hashim slapping their faces) but as far as what the aimmah themselves did, you will only find the first two points (which are certainly not small or minor points, so I don't know why there is an insistence on having some kind of a long list when the majalis and poetry/lamentation themselves hold such a great merit). 

I respect the tableegh/da'wah work that the late Syed Rizvi did in Africa and I pray that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) rewards him for it. Unfortunately the argumentation used in this work is not the greatest. 

Edited by Mahdavist
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40 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Here is a reference to a book on Karbala with a few sections devoted to Azadari & Innovation.

Understanding Karbala: Azadari & Innovation

At the very least, azadari list is:

DO (from the book)

Lectures/Majlis
Poetry

  • salam
  • soz
  • mersiya
  • nohay

Crying

Matam - on the spur

Matam - organized

Taboot

Taziyah

Juloos (Procession)

Zuljana

Deshelved hair

Black clothes

Azakhana (Mourning house) at home

Drums - (happens in Iraq mostly)


It would behoove you and others to do some research before forming opinions on any topic let alone azadari.

I could have posted the reference and the list 2 days ago but I wanted to highlight the ignorance of OP and how people fall for it. I will address his original post next.

This is an awful book to quote because on the first page he says:

" Innovation is generally defined as something new created after the completion of religion or it denotes the invention of new beliefs and rituals after the passing away of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).8 In the same way Majmaul Bahrayn defines Bid’ah as:

“That which was not present in the period of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an innovation.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, not only Azadari but all the sciences and arts, which have safeguarded the survival of Islam, all of them seem to be wearing the label of ‘innovation’. "

So this is the foundation upon which he will build his argument, the problem is that he lied, what is written in Majma' al-Bahrayn is:

و " البدعة " بالكسر فالسكون الحدث في الدين، وما ليس له أصل في كتاب ولا سنة

http://www.shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3961_مجمع-البحرين-الشيخ-الطريحي-ج-١/الصفحة_162

'And al-bid'a (with a kasra followed by a sukoon) is the innovation in religion, that which has no foundation in the book or the sunna'

So you have to wonder why he would build his whole argument on a lie if his position has any strength.

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53 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The example given for ta'ziyah was Ayesha playing with dolls and the example given for ma'tam was Mutawakkil holding a mourning ceremony for Ahmed ibn Hanbal

Many times while addressing opposition we give examples as per their books and leaders. The author might have sunnis in mind. However, actions of enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) are in no way hujjat upon us. 

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

As long as everyone is honest about the fact that it doesn't come from the teachings of the aimmah (عليه السلام), then yes I don't see a problem.

Yes, no one claims Imams did tatbir that doesn't automatically make it wrong. 

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3 hours ago, 786:) said:

So you post an article as a reference for your list then add on to the list from your own conjecture. The article only lists majlis, poetry, matam, and taboot/taziya. Not sure how you got the others, but we’ll just assume dressing up horses with food colored cloth asking haajat from it is a Sunnah for now.
By the way, did you even read the article? The justification given for matam was that matam was performed during the funeral of Ahmad ibn Hanbal...solid proof. For taziyas he states a hadith of the Prophet in which the Prophet instructs a person to draw lines in the ground in reference to his dead parents graves as the individual had no knowledge of their graves. Not exactly a sound justification to make zaris and prostrating to them and asking for haajat. Your attempt is underwhelming.

This is so funny.

First, it is a book and not an article.

Second, do more than read the Index and you will find all of the list is from the book.

Third, the book is written to answer Sunni-finger pointing hence sunni rerferences were used. 

Foreword:
 

We are all aware of the malicious propaganda of the enemies of Islam and humanity to target the Muharram ceremonies and the conspiracy to belittle the Great Sacrifice of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)). This book is a refutation of all objections raised in this connection.

The author, in his typical style has refuted all the allegations in a scholarly manner but at the same time made the text readable and interesting even for laymen.

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3 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The example given for ta'ziyah was Ayesha playing with dolls and the example given for ma'tam was Mutawakkil holding a mourning ceremony for Ahmed ibn Hanbal. Later on in the same book a more concrete example for ma'tam is given (women of Banu Hashim slapping their faces) but as far as what the aimmah themselves did, you will only find the first two points (which are certainly not small or minor points, so I don't know why there is an insistence on having some kind of a long list when the majalis and poetry/lamentation themselves hold such a great merit). 

I respect the tableegh/da'wah work that the late Syed Rizvi did in Africa and I pray that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) rewards him for it. Unfortunately the argumentation used in this work is not the greatest. 

Please bear in mind his target audience were sunni finger-pointers and not shia hence the sunni references.

Foreword:
 

We are all aware of the malicious propaganda of the enemies of Islam and humanity to target the Muharram ceremonies and the conspiracy to belittle the Great Sacrifice of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)). This book is a refutation of all objections raised in this connection.

The author, in his typical style has refuted all the allegations in a scholarly manner but at the same time made the text readable and interesting even for laymen.

 

The late allama has done great work. May he be in the highest of places in Jannah.

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3 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

This is an awful book to quote because on the first page he says:

" Innovation is generally defined as something new created after the completion of religion or it denotes the invention of new beliefs and rituals after the passing away of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).8 In the same way Majmaul Bahrayn defines Bid’ah as:

“That which was not present in the period of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is an innovation.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, not only Azadari but all the sciences and arts, which have safeguarded the survival of Islam, all of them seem to be wearing the label of ‘innovation’. "

So this is the foundation upon which he will build his argument, the problem is that he lied, what is written in Majma' al-Bahrayn is:

و " البدعة " بالكسر فالسكون الحدث في الدين، وما ليس له أصل في كتاب ولا سنة

http://www.shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3961_مجمع-البحرين-الشيخ-الطريحي-ج-١/الصفحة_162

'And al-bid'a (with a kasra followed by a sukoon) is the innovation in religion, that which has no foundation in the book or the sunna'

So you have to wonder why he would build his whole argument on a lie if his position has any strength.

read the whole book please. Its targeted at sunnis.

 

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I am shocked that the first thing @786:) @Mahdavist and @Ali_Hussain have done is criticize the late and great Allama Syed Saeed Akhtar Rizvi....well I am shocked about 2 out of 3, one I expect to do this.

If you had taken a little bit of extra time and read the book from the beginning, you would realize who the book was targeted at and why he used the references that he did.

I suppose I will have to find a book where our ulema have justified azadari rituals to shias...truly sad times.

 

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30 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I am shocked that the first thing @786:) @Mahdavist and @Ali_Hussain have done is criticize the late and great Allama Syed Saeed Akhtar Rizvi....well I am shocked about 2 out of 3, one I expect to do this.

If you had taken a little bit of extra time and read the book from the beginning, you would realize who the book was targeted at and why he used the references that he did.

I suppose I will have to find a book where our ulema have justified azadari rituals to shias...truly sad times.

 

Honestly, I don’t know who that is. No disrespect to him, but the proofs that he presented were rather weak from my vantage point. It would be like me bringing up Sayed Fadlallah and getting emotional about how you did not find his word as truth.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

read the whole book please. Its targeted at sunnis.

 

And?

Is it ok to try and be deceptive when aiming things at other sects? If anything that makes it worse because it shows that you can't make a decent argument by being honest.

Also if it is aimed at Sunnis, why is he quoting Majma' al-Bahrayn? The author is Shi'a, why not quote a Sunni scholar to Sunnis that would be more persuasive.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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