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In the Name of God بسم الله

Will all ex-muslim go to hellfire?

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Salaam, assuming that they are unsure if Islam is true and are convinced of atheism would ex-muslims be classified as Jahil-e-Qasir here?

Please give evidence (even anecdotal).
 

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1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’) and who are obstinate non-believers. That is, Islam has reached them and they have understood its truthfulness; however, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group of non-believers deserves to be punished in Hell because despite having known the truth, they have chosen with their own free will to reject Islam. These non-believers, even though they may be of good conduct, could have attained salvation but instead have closed the path to salvation themselves as they have covered the truth and are rebellious and obstinate in relation to it. As a result, they have chosen their own predicament.

2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner; so for example, they think that Islam has the same status and rank as the religions of India and China and at the most, Judaism and Christianity. This group of non-believers, whether they live in the most remote parts of the world or in the most civilized, will not be subject to the punishments of Hell because they are not blameworthy for their lack of belief, and punishment is only for blameworthy sinners.

https://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason/question-13-non-muslims-and-hell

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No if he genuinely reached to a different conclusion and does not have any kind of false accusations(hatred) against Islam. But if he apostates and says a bunch of rubbish Iike “apostate prophet” guy  then he is a infidel. 

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54 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

No if he genuinely reached to a different conclusion and does not have any kind of false accusations(hatred) against Islam. But if he apostates and says a bunch of rubbish Iike “apostate prophet” guy  then he is a infidel. 

Still it’s more likely that apostate or non-muslim will be in hell compared to a Muslim right?

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Still it’s more likely that apostate or non-muslim will be in hell compared to a Muslim right?

No unless She/he rejects the truth after it he/she has recognised it and the rest of the Answer to your question is in the video. Only a polytheist (I.e the trinitarians and Dualists, adoptionists, Hellenistics and all sorts of mushriks) will not enter heaven as the Quran has made that clear and savage oppressors (i.e like Abu baker, Yazid, Muawiyah and etc) 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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Just now, THREE1THREE said:

 Only a polytheist (I.e the trinitarians and Dualists, adoptionists, Hellenistics and all sorts of mushriks) will not enter heaven as the Quran has made that clear

Sura Al-Hajj 22:17 "Indeed Allah will indeed judge between the faithful, the Jews, the Sabaeans, the Christians, the Magians and the polytheists on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is witness to all things."
I think this quote makes it clear that it doesn't matter what your religion is called. Only how faithful / trustworthy you are to Allah.

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4 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

Sura Al-Hajj 22:17 "Indeed Allah will indeed judge between the faithful, the Jews, the Sabaeans, the Christians, the Magians and the polytheists on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is witness to all things."
I think this quote makes it clear that it doesn't matter what your religion is called. Only how faithful / trustworthy you are to Allah.

Might not make sense but then what’s the point in being Muslim? I’d rather be atheist belive God exist Or some divine being and be a good person whatever exactly that means and at least I don’t have to pray fast perform hajj make up qadhas but you know it doesn’t matter as long as I’m Good? 

Of coarse end of the day allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the judge but it just makes it unfair compared to Muslims doing wajib things compared to non Muslims being less strict for example. We should bring people to the truth being Islam. 
 

if Islam never reached a specific tribe or person than that’s understandable they didn’t get anyone to spread the message. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ali2196 said:

I’d rather be atheist belive God

Well currently, assuming you have realised that a God exists through his signs,  and despite this you’re still an atheist you will be classified as Jahil e Muqassir

All of your good acts will certainly benefit you, given it’s done as per your fitrah and for your Khaliq, “whoever does an atoms weight of good shall see it, and whoever does and atoms weight of evil shall see it”

Edited by Ejaz
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

No unless She/he rejects the truth after it he/she has recognised it and the rest of the Answer to your question is in the video. Only a polytheist (I.e the trinitarians and Dualists, adoptionists, Hellenistics and all sorts of mushriks) will not enter heaven as the Quran has made that clear and savage oppressors (i.e like Abu baker, Yazid, Muawiyah and etc) 

So Jahil e Qasir concept doesn’t apply to polytheists (those intellectually convinced of their polytheistic beliefs)?


I’ve read two hadiths indicating that the effect of the fire is removed from some polytheists for performing certain good deeds... and there is a mud house between heaven and hell also that protects from fire and has sustenance brought into it from where Allah wills. e.g. a group of polytheists who helped children of Israel.

Further to this I’ve seen a hadith posted on here that the polytheists who haven’t heard of Islam will undergo another test in the hereafter where God will first make them agree that only He is God and then He will say to them to enter the fire and those who do will be saved but those who don’t will be doomed.

I can find above hadiths for you^
Aren’t atheist ex Muslims simply polytheists (denying the Originator, Fashioner of the Heavens and the Earth and the Creator /Khaliq)?

Edited by Ejaz
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1 hour ago, Revert1963 said:

think this quote makes it clear that it doesn't matter what your religion is called. Only how faithful / trustworthy you are to Allah.

The Quran is pretty clear on the polytheists. Their intellect is their prophet when no prophet if sent to them. They can chose to reason with it or ignore it. 

as for the monotheistic religions (Paulanity is not included) the answer is in the video. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

So Jahil e Qasir concept doesn’t apply to polytheists (those intellectually convinced of their polytheistic beliefs)?

No the Quran is clear on the mushriks that heaven will be forbidden for them.

A jahil would be someone is ignorant islam exsisting or not knowing much or has the wrong idea. Perhaps even when the person reaches to different conclusion sincerely. 
 

39 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Further to this I’ve seen a hadith posted on here that the polytheists who haven’t heard of Islam will undergo another test in the hereafter where God will first make them agree that only He is God and then He will say to them to enter the fire and those who do will be saved but those who don’t will be doomed.

Their intellect is their prophet, that means they can either use their intellect and come to conclusion of the same concept of God as Shia Muslims and Jews or ignore it which will lead to other nonsense 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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48 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

I’ve read two hadiths indicating that the effect of the fire is removed from some polytheists for performing certain good deeds... and there is a mud house between heaven and hell also that protects from fire and has sustenance brought into it from where Allah wills.

Yeah I’ve heard about that hadith its narrated by imam jafar al-sadiq ((عليه السلام)) 

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13 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Well currently, assuming you have realised that a God exists through his signs,  and despite this you’re still an atheist you will be classified as Jahil e Muqassir

All of your good acts will certainly benefit you, given it’s done as per your fitrah and for your Khaliq, “whoever does an atoms weight of good shall see it, and whoever does and atoms weight of evil shall see it”

Yeah that’s what I mean if the message/signs of God hasn’t come to them but they are generally Good people then yes I’m sure they can enter jannah. But if the people wether ex Muslim or anything else knows that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) exist or choose not to believe but just do say (Good actions) than they will be rewarded in this life not the afterlife. 

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On 8/15/2020 at 1:19 PM, THREE1THREE said:

No if he genuinely reached to a different conclusion and does not have any kind of false accusations(hatred) against Islam. But if he apostates and says a bunch of rubbish Iike “apostate prophet” guy  then he is a infidel. 

What? So let’s say a person is raised Muslim all there lives, but is convinced that Atheism is the way forward and ultimately reject Islam, this isn’t wrong?

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11 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

What? So let’s say a person is raised Muslim all there lives, but is convinced that Atheism is the way forward and ultimately reject Islam, this isn’t wrong?

Not necessarily from what I have researched, refer to these links:

https://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason/question-13-non-muslims-and-hell

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/en748
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGN40PuEmw0

https://www.al-islam.org/islam-and-religious-pluralism-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/summary-and-conclusion

Also, read my posts here to gain a comprehensive understanding:

 

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15 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Every stubborn, proud, haughty and mean will enter the fire and every humble meek will enter paradise.

Where would you put this chap?

 

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21 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

No the Quran is clear on the mushriks that heaven will be forbidden for them.

A jahil would be someone is ignorant islam exsisting or not knowing much or has the wrong idea. Perhaps even when the person reaches to different conclusion sincerely. 
 

Their intellect is their prophet, that means they can either use their intellect and come to conclusion of the same concept of God as Shia Muslims and Jews or ignore it which will lead to other nonsense 

Salaam the Quran also says

  • “and never would we punish until we send a messenger”(17:15)
  • “And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters.“ (27:14)
  • “Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way - For those it is expected that Allah will pardon them, and Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.“ (4:98)

Here is the hadith I was talking about, sourced from brother Qa’im:

Quote

A companion asked the Messenger of Allah (s), "Inform me, will Allah punish a person without a proof?"

The Messenger replied, "God forbid."

The companion asked, "So are the children of the polytheists in Paradise or in the Fire?"

The Messenger said, "Allah has more of a right over them.

When Allah gathers the creatures on the Day of Resurrection to cast judgment, He will begin with the children of the polytheists.

He will say to them, 'My male and female servants, who is your Lord, what is your religion, and what are your deeds?'

So they will say, 'O Allah, You are our Lord, You created us, and we created nothing. You caused us to die, and we caused nothing to die. You did not give us a speaking tongue, nor a discerning ear, nor a book that we could read, nor a messenger that we could follow. We do not have knowledge, for You have not taught us.'

So He will say to them, 'My male and female servants, if I were to command you to do something, would you do it?'

So they will say, 'We hear and obey You, O our Lord.'

So Allah will bring a fire called al-Falaq, which is the most severe punishment in Hell, and burns dark black with chains and shackles. Then Allah will order it to blow into the faces of the creatures. The severity of its blow will sever the heavens, obliterate the stars, freeze the seas, shake the mountains, grieve the sight [of the creation], cause the pregnant to miscarry, and cause the children to grey due to its horror on the Day of Resurrection.

Then, Allah will order the children of the polytheists to throw themselves into that Fire. So those whom Allah knows would be good will throw themselves into it, and it will be cool and peaceful for them, just as it was for Abraham [a]. And those whom Allah knows would be wretched will not throw themselves into the fire, so Allah will order the fire to overtake them for abandoning His order, and they will follow their forefathers into Hell."

في كتاب التوحيد باسناده إلى عبد الله بن سلام مولى رسول الله صلى عليه وآله قال: سألت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فقلت: اخبرني أيعذب الله عز وجل خلقا بلا حجة؟فقال: معاذ الله، قلت: فأولاد المشركين في الجنة أم في النار؟فقال: الله تبارك و تعالى أولى بهم، انه إذا كان يوم القيامة وجمع الله عز وجل الخلائق لفصل القضاء يأتي بأولاد المشركين فيقول لهم عبيدي وإمائي من ربكم وما دينكم وما أعمالكم؟قال: فيقولون: اللهم ربنا أنت خلقتنا ولم نخلق شيئا، وأنت أمتنا ولم نمت شيئا، ولم تجعل لنا ألسنة ننطق بها ولا اسماعا نسمع ولا كتابا نقرؤه ولا رسولا فنتبعه، و لا علم لنا الا ما علمتنا، قال: فيقول لهم عز وجل: عبيدي وإمائي ان أمرتكم بأمر أتفعلونه؟فيقولون: السمع والطاعة لك يا ربنا، قال: فيأمر الله عز وجل نارا يقال لها الفلق أشد شئ في جهنم عذابا فتخرج من مكانها سوداء مظلمة بالسلاسل والأغلال، فيأمرها الله عز وجل ان تنفخ في وجوه الخلائق نفخة فتنفخ، فمن شدة نفختها تنقطع السماء وتنطمس النجوم وتجمد البحار وتزول الجبال وتظلم الابصار وتضع الحوامل حملها، وتشيب الولدان من هولها يوم القيامة ثم يأمر الله تبارك وتعالى أطفال المشركين أن يلقوا أنفسهم في تلك النار، فمن سبق له في علم الله عزوجل أن يكون سعيدا ألقى نفسه فيها فكانت عليه بردا وسلاما كما كانت على إبراهيم عليه السلام، ومن سبق له في علم الله عزوجل أن يكون شقيا امتنع فلم يلق نفسه في النار، فيأمر الله تبارك و تعالى النار فتلقطه لتركه أمر الله وامتناعه من الدخول فيها فيكون تبعا لآبائه في جهنم

Shaheed Mutahhari would disagree if you say all polytheists would end up in hell and stay there forever:

Quote

The good deeds of individuals who don’t believe in God and the Day of Judgement and perhaps may ascribe partners to God will cause their punishment to be lessened and, occasionally, be lifted.

https://www.al-islam.org/islam-and-religious-pluralism-murtadha-mutahhari/summary-and-conclusion

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

That’s are just articles by person who subscribed to particular opinion but the most rational conclusion would be kamal al-haydari’s 

1. Has to believe in the absolute oneness of God (the Quran calls the trinitarians and dualists and etc disbelievers) 

2. Do good deeds (I.e fulfil his religious obligations (Paulines are out in this one let alone being mushriks) 

3. Believe in the last Day (some Jews don’t believe in the last Day so they are out) 

4. be sincere in you research so if you have come to the conclusion that the the-Way Christianity is the truth and final message then he must act according to that and if he doesn’t he will be held accountable for denying the truth by not acting upon it. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ejaz said:
  • “and never would we punish until we send a messenger”(17:15)
  • “And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters.“ (27:14)
  • “Except for the oppressed among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan nor are they directed to a way - For those it is expected that Allah will pardon them, and Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving.“ (4:98)

I didn’t put these verses into consideration.... but the in our time monotheism(i.e Tawheed) can be proven from the bible and outside of it very easily, so for example I have shown Dave all the proofs of Tawheed from the bible accompanied with arguments Yet he denies them arrogantly after I have refuted all his arguments and has nothing else to bring forth (at this stage he is supposed to become a Unitarian). so in short 17:15 could be possibly be Slightly not applicable in many parts of the world due to our advanced environment. 
 

thanks for the Hadith btw. 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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Posted (edited)

@Abu Nur @Haji 2003

Salaam bros,

Any thoughts on what I wrote above^ (my discussion with Br. Three1three)?

I find this an interesting topic.

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On 8/15/2020 at 6:19 PM, THREE1THREE said:

The Quran is pretty clear on the polytheists.

Who are the polytheists in a Quranic context? It is the Qureysh. They are the ones who regarded the Ka'aba to be the most holy place on earth. They are the ones who prostrated when they prayed. They are the ones who originally got the message from prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) and his son Ismail. They are the ones who believed in Allah. Only they attributed partners to him. They gave him children. They put other gods at his side that they claimed was equal to him.
Now what where they suppose to do in order to be faithful / trustworthy? Follow the original message they was given by the prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) and his son Ismail when they build the Ka'aba and worship Allah alone. In effect they would become Muslims. At the time of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Islam was not a separate religion like we see it to day. The Mu'min was those who believe in the original message sent to them through their previous prophets and that the prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had come to confirm as the last of the prophets.

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On 8/15/2020 at 4:35 PM, Ali2196 said:

Might not make sense but then what’s the point in being Muslim?

The one who is Muslim is the one who submit to Allah, follow his prophets and act with justice.  Religion as a social structure or ethnic marker is not what counts.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/16/2020 at 4:35 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Where would you put this chap?

 

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows the heart's of the people. As for Christians who come to conclusion that Islam is truth and still reject it because of arrogance or proudness, then that is rejecting God. But if they don't find the truth in Islam but they find it in Christianity and they follow it's principles of doing good and believe in one God, then they are safe.

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

Salaam, assuming that they are unsure if Islam is true and are convinced of atheism would ex-muslims be classified as Jahil-e-Qasir here?

If he/she is convinced of atheism then he/she is not believer in God an thus infidel.

Edited by Abu Nur
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50 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

 

If he/she is convinced of atheism then he/she is not believer in God an thus infidel.

Not a mustadh'af infidel?

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@THREE1THREE

dont these verses contradict what you were saying about the ex Muslims? 

Quote

Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray  3:90

Do not make excuses; you have denied indeed after you had believed; if We pardon a party of you, We will chastise (another) party because they are guilty. 9:66

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement. 16:106

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30 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray  3:90

The condition is how sincere the person is on his/her research, if the person recognises islam being the true path but still leaves it then this verse applies to them. If a person leaves islam because they wanna run around in a bikini despite recognising Islam being the truth final path then this verse applies to them. It comes down to matter of arrogance and sincerity. 
 

34 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Do not make excuses; you have denied indeed after you had believed; if We pardon a party of you, We will chastise (another) party because they are guilty. 9:66

Apply the bikini example to this one.

 

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44 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The condition is how sincere the person is on his/her research, if the person recognises islam being the true path but still leaves it then this verse applies to them. If a person leaves islam because they wanna run around in a bikini despite recognising Islam being the truth final path then this verse applies to them. It comes down to matter of arrogance and sincerity. 

Thank you brother for your response. This is a very fair and rational view.

There is a third category however, what if a person does not know whether Islam is the true path, or never reached Yaqeen and subsequently leaves Islam. I have an acquaintance like this, he has drunk alcohol from time to time, is a kind person, but is not religious despite a Muslim upbringing   (but I haven’t talked to him in a long time so he might have become religious again). He told me that he read the entirety of the Holy Qur’an. I sent him a couple of YouTube videos but that didn’t convince him to come back.
 

Is it possible for such a person may be retested in the hereafter, as in the above hadith^? He has made some research, but not come to the conclusion Islam is true.

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On 8/15/2020 at 9:35 AM, Ali2196 said:

Might not make sense but then what’s the point in being Muslim? I’d rather be atheist belive God exist Or some divine being and be a good person whatever exactly that means and at least I don’t have to pray fast perform hajj make up qadhas but you know it doesn’t matter as long as I’m Good? 

Of coarse end of the day allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the judge but it just makes it unfair compared to Muslims doing wajib things compared to non Muslims being less strict for example. We should bring people to the truth being Islam. 
 

if Islam never reached a specific tribe or person than that’s understandable they didn’t get anyone to spread the message. 

Brother, this reasoning is problematic for a number of reasons:

 You are presuming that the laws set in Islamic jurisprudence are merely there to test us by reducing the way in which we can live a 'comfortable' lifestyle and instead add many strenuous rules and regulations. This of course is very far from the truth as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) states in Chapter 2:180

 يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ  Indeed Allah wishes for you (O'Children of Adam) ease and does not intend for you hardship. 

You find that through a deliberate and apt take on the Quranic discourse with respect to Islamic law a beautiful, albeit unfavorable (to some) process of restriction to further enhance our humane and moral potential while alleviating the numerous harms that we may face, be they of spiritual, physical, and or mental capacity. The intricate nature of Islamic law which follows wherever you may go and be in the most private areas of your life highlight to the believer the purpose in which the all merciful has intended for the human being and that is to be meaningful and deliberate with all that you do, by being considerate of the nuanced effects your behaviorism may pose. As Muslims we believe that we cling to a sense of superiority when it comes to guidance and that is of course true, as we (Insha'Allah) have reached the unequivocal belief which is the truth of the Islamic reality - the oneness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the Prophethood of his immaculate messenger. Thereby, putting us at a great advantage when it comes to the perfection of our intrinsic and extrinsic realities; one may of course draw a dichotomy between said ex-muslims, or other groups/denominations highlighting through statistical reasoning the supposed 'better life' many secularists occupy outside of the realm of Islamic law, however, if you examine the root of what differentiates them within any dichotomous scale you would find that they are concordant with the Islamic worldview and encouraged by our traditions.  Anecdotal instances of success  between non-muslims and Muslims as individual are henceforth null.

 I have seen a common trend and this of course is not directed toward what you've raised, but I do believe it is important to note and that is the glamorization of sin which is being furthered at an all time high in contemporary times, for example we see many young (Muslim) males and females stressed or troubled by the fact that they can't go party at discos, engage in extra-marital relations, drink alcohol, and the list goes on. These of course carry a theme and it appears that the very vast majority are reeled in by this theme which entices the human being to participate in activities that hold at the forefront the sole excitement of an individual's  carnal  nature. Taking discos/nightclubs as an example we see that these are hotspots for 'enjoying life', 'letting loose', etc. However, there is a misunderstanding once again between what feels right/enjoyable as opposed to what is right and beneficial, sure someone can live an entire life of clubbing, alcoholism, and debauchery and upon their deathbed may recollect seldom complaint regarding their lives, but to what expense? 

The constant engagement of sin has been narrated to darken the heart and a dark heart indicates very poor foresight, especially when it comes to that which pertains to the reality of trouble your actions may and are indeed causing to not your ascension as a dignified human being, but also the detriment you may bring to a society. The person who lived a life of debauchery, how much of their perception have they dulled? How have they contributed unknowingly to the degradation and exploitation of women? How many avenues of evil were able to open as they danced intoxicated by the delusion of a repetitive cycle of self-enjoyment and self-indulgence. One does not even need to resort to the Islamic reality which shatters any such purposelessness, rather read of what the ancient Greeks had to say of self-enjoyment; what did the Stoic philosophers deduce regarding the nature of man, read Seneca's discourse on the shortness of life. these ideals are not a set of inculcated dogmatic beliefs, this is the universality of Islam and any one who has achieved greatness has forsaken all that which we see many covet.

 Blood was spilled, tears were shed, and years were sacrificed to bring what we have in our very palms, the guideline towards actualizing our essence and reverting back to the pure and serene state which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has intended for us. we may all be living organisms, but in the end what separates a believers existence with the psuedo-reality of the non-believer is removing the veils of egoism, narcissism, and vanity from ourselves and rising to become the champions of our existence. Much of what little I had to say can be further examined and discussed, no matter how far we dig through Islam seeking to unravel ourselves and awaken from this deep sleep hoping to realize all that which has been veiled from us. The Commander of the Faithful once said that if all the veils between him and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were removed it would not affect (i.e increase) his faith and certainty in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). May we seek to take from the example of the champion of champions and highlight to Muslims, non-muslims, and ex-muslims alike the unadulterated version of what it means to be one who submits to the will of the most high. 

 

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