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In the Name of God بسم الله

What does it mean that "God is in me"?

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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Salam God is not inside anybody nor anybody inside God but because people see Allah/ God anywhere (ie his signs) so some people under delusion like Sufis said that God is inside them. 

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It is Sufi and Hindu belief that God is in me or everything. Our belief if Hulool i.e. It means "entering". Nothing enters Allah nor does He enter anything or anybody. Therefore, the belief of Incarnation in any form is abhorrent to the conception of Divinity.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Is God in you (in a non-physical and non-spiritual sense)??

Thanks

Khoda Hafez

It is a figure of speech.  Obviously God is not physically "in" anything. 

It is equally true to say the following:

1) God is in you and you are in God.

2) God is in everything and everything is in God. 

The reason for this the following:

 The "relatively here" that is relative to the "relative there" are (in a "Space") that is at once "Absolutely Here & There"

The "relatively inside" that is relative to the "relatively outside" are (in a "Space") that is at once "Absolutely Inside & Outside"

Alternatively:

The "relatively here" that is relative to the "relative there" are (in a "Space") that is neither "relatively here" nor "relatively there".

The "relatively inside" that is relative to the "relatively outside" are (in a "Space") that is neither "relatively inside" nor "relatively outside".

  

Edited by eThErEaL
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41 minutes ago, Cool said:

I wonder where are we in our bodies? 

Good question, to which I don’t know the answer to.

It reminds me of Ibn Sina’s Floating Man thought experiment though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_man

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12 hours ago, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Is God in you (in a non-physical and non-spiritual sense)??

Thanks

Khoda Hafez

God is meant the limitless Awareness, the universal Consciousness that is experienced in the contemplative state. That universal Consciousness is, of course, beyond names and images, as It is That which exists prior to the manifestation of name and form;but, from another perspective, every name that can be uttered is God's name, as there is no name or form that is not His manifestation. God exists as both the subjective and the objective Reality. He may be intuited in the objective world, but He can only be directly known as the subjective Reality; i.e., from within as I. The objective Reality is that which is perceived, either as subtle form (on the mental, or psychic, level), or as gross form (on the sensual level). The subjective Reality is the perceiver, the Witness. It is that very consciousness which we experience as our very own existence. That is God; and it is That which is to be known.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

if you say you are “a soul”, is the soul a physical entity that it can be said to be localized “in” the body?  

Well it is not a physical entity yet we believe in the "يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ", what is this "taking & sending back" of the soul? From where it is taken & to where it is sent back? 

Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 42:
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
(English - Shakir)

See the words فَيُمْسِكُ & وَيُرْسِلُ (to withhold & to send)

Edited by Cool
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Wow this simple (??) question has led into a really complex logical philosophical discussion which has stretched my mind, especially the link to the floating man!

I think that we would all agree that as God created the universe, he must be different from his creation and separate from it.  Both the Qur'an and the Bible assume that.

The next step is to ask can this 'separate' and 'different' God enter his creation in some way?  If we say 'No' to this question we end up with Deism.  God the great watch maker, made the world; wound it up; and watches from a distance as it runs down.

So how does God enter his creation? I would suggest through revelation. In Islam, Judaism and Christianity we see God as speaking to his prophets.  How does he do this?  One answer is only by sending a messenger (angel) - he is so separate he can only engage from a distance.  Another answer would be he does this by allowing his voice (whatever that is) in some way to be 'heard'.  The accounts of Moses and Abraham would indicate that this was the case they heard God's voice.  So, God, through his voice, has entered his creation.

We would also agree that we have a book which is understood to be God's revelation.  So, God not only speaks, but he allows, even encourages, those words to be recorded in a physical form and teaches their meaning.

  • Qur'an 96:3  Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous - 4  Who taught by the pen - 5  Taught man that which he knew not.

  • Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways.

So does God's 'entering' his creation end with words and a book?

As a Follower of Jesus, I would say no.  God in his greatness has chosen to come close to his creation, and, while at the same time remaining separate, came in a physical form.  The New Testament writers see this 'entering' as Jesus the Messiah.  The verse in Hebrews chapter 1 continues

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

In Jesus the Messiah we see God entering his creation in some miraculous, incredible, way.  The ultimate revelation.

Now we come to the original question can "God be in a human"?

Because I believe that God entered his creation in Jesus the Messiah, I believe that he can also enter my physical body through the power of his Holy Spirit.

As God remained God - separate and different from his creation - but at the same time entered through his voice, his books and ultimately through Jesus.  There is no doubt in my mind that he can enter a human and give us the power to live a godly life and defeat the whispers of satan.

For me this is not just empty words and a vague, theoretical belief, it is a lived daily experience of God at work within me and through me.  I am a clay container through which God's glory shines.  Not because of me, but because of who he is.

1Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

Sorry my response is sooo long - please forgive me

 

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14 hours ago, Cool said:

Well it is not a physical entity yet we believe in the "يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ", what is this "taking & sending back" of the soul? From where it is taken & to where it is sent back? 

Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 42:
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
(English - Shakir)

See the words فَيُمْسِكُ & وَيُرْسِلُ (to withhold & to send)

Alright. 

So if "you" = a nafs, then the nafs is not "in" the body.  The nafs is more like meaning in relation to form or words.  Each thing has a "nafs" in a sense.  Each thing has a unique identity (and therefore a nafs).  Your identity (your nafs or your uniqueness) appears differently depending on the different modes you see it through.  So your identity in the corporeal realm will appear as a corporeal body, your identity in the subtle / khayali (or barzakhi) realm will appear as a subtle/barzakhi body.  And your identity in the realm of the spirits will appear as a spiritual body.  In all cases, it is your one and the same nafs (as they say in Arabic, "nafsu shay").    So you cannot truly separate your corporeal body from your nafs, as they are two sides of the same coin (just as meaning and form are two sides of the same coin).  It is certainly not the case that the nafs is "IN" the corporeal body.     

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Alright. 

So if "you" = a nafs, then the nafs is not "in" the body.  The nafs is more like meaning in relation to form or words.  Each thing has a "nafs" in a sense.  Each thing has a unique identity (and therefore a nafs).  Your identity (your nafs or your uniqueness) appears differently depending on the different modes you see it through.  So your identity in the corporeal realm will appear as a corporeal body, your identity in the subtle / khayali (or barzakhi) realm will appear as a subtle/barzakhi body.  And your identity in the realm of the spirits will appear as a spiritual body.  In all cases, it is your one and the same nafs (as they say in Arabic, "nafsu shay").    So you cannot truly separate your corporeal body from your nafs, as they are two sides of the same coin (just as meaning and form are two sides of the same coin).  It is certainly not the case that the nafs is "IN" the corporeal body.     

 

 

 

Isn’t the nafs the inner part of the body, instead of a mixture of composition. The nafs is “in” the body, because the body is the container.

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1 minute ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Isn’t the nafs the inner part of the body, instead of a mixture of composition. The nafs is “in” the body, because the body is the container.

For the record, I never said anything of a mixture (nor was I implying a mixture).

And no, the body is not a "container".  At all.  

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

And no, the body is not a "container".  At all.  

So the body isn’t a vessel for the nafs? 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

So the body isn’t a vessel for the nafs? 

No.  

 

Also, does it look like a container to any of us?  

Do you imagine your nafs to be some kind of ghost hovering invisibly inside your body?

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Do you imagine your nafs to be some kind of ghost hovering invisibly inside your body?

 

A flow of chakra of some sort, Allah knows best.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

A flow of chakra of some sort, Allah knows best.

no.  that is something completely different.  

The idea of the body and the soul being two separate entities is a dualistic idea that crept into Christianity from Gnostic Dualism.  This is where the notions of the body being evil, or the body needing to be deprived (came about).  

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

no.  that is something completely different.  

 

God is believed to endow humans with rūḥ and nafs (نَفْس, psyche, i.e. ego or "(inner) soul"). The rūḥ "drives" the nafs, which comprises temporal desires and sensory perceptions. The nafs can assume control of the body if the rūḥ surrenders to bodily urges. The nafs is subject to bodily desire, whereas the rūḥ is a person's immaterial essence, beyond the emotions and instincts shared by humans and other animals; rūḥ makes the body alive. Some arwah (pl. spirits) dwell in the seventh heaven. Unlike the angels, they are supposed to eat and drink. An angel called Ar-Rūḥ(the spirit) is responsible for them.

Okay, so the nafs and soul are different, the nafs is what influences the soul through the psyche (brain), correct?

 

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1 minute ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

The nafs and ruh are different.  

 I am translating nafs as soul, and ruh as spirit (I have always done so).

So mind rewording your question again? 

 

 

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The idea of the body and the soul being two separate entities is a dualistic idea that crept into Christianity from Gnostic Dualism.  This is where the notions of the body being evil, or the body needing to be deprived (came about).  

@Mohammad313Ali

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The rooh/soul/self is different from mind/nafs and organs that is to say from gross and subtle bodies. The external objects are experienced by the mind through the sense organs. The mind and the sense organs clearly seen to be different from experienced objects. By the same reasoning, soul (individual consciousness) which illumines the mind and sense organs must necessarily be different from them. It is only by the light of consciousness that is the soul that the mind and organs, which are themselves insentient, perform there function like thinking seeing , hearing and so on.
The mind and organs of sense can experience only external objects, they cannot know the soul. The mind by itself has no consciousness  but appear to be conscious only because of the reflection of consciousness of the soul on it. The sense organs also derive their apparent sentiency only from this reflected consciousness. This is being so, it is obvious that the mind and organs cannot know the soul.  
The soul is ever the subject and cannot become object to be experienced by sense organs. 

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Mashallah brothers, thank you for educating me on this topic, as I am quite new to it. I hope to inshallah read more about the nafs and soul in an attempt to pose better questions and reach inshallah a sound conclusion. 

@eThErEaL are there any books you recommend on this topic brother?

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Salam wa Alaikum Rahmat'Allah wa Barikatu, 

Islamically, In my view this means everything that we see that exists is a hologram(something that doesn't hold Allahs names) compared to Allah. God in "me" is the pure noor that is manifest in you through His Names(Patience, Good, Charitable, Peaceful, Calm, Compassionate, these are the most loved people in this world who act on these attributes) . Since God doesn't exist in this world(He created existence) and we can only see his creation but even in them the only thing with substance or meaning is in the metaphysical(can be described but not necessarily seen/unseen), which comes in the form of Allahs names or Truth. The Good(kind people), The Pure(clean people) are the only thing that is remembered, its not the attributed(a person himself) that we remember in this world but attributes in people . Understanding this concept is one of the ultimate ways to come closer to Allah in my search. I believe the Prophet And His Holy Household(اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ) where the best role models in doing this.

 

Salam

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Posted (edited)
On 8/15/2020 at 3:36 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Is God in you (in a non-physical and non-spiritual sense)??

Thanks

Khoda Hafez

سلام

God's essence is completely apart and separate from everything and anything, a thing unlike anything else. 

God's names/qualities/attributes emanate from His essence and are dispersed in various degrees throughout the cosmos. 

Inside humans, all of His qualities are located, all of His attributes, His names. And based on our deeds and nature we manifest these qualities in various degrees. We are the microcosm, and the cosmos is the macrocosm.

A Perfect Human (الانسان الکامل) has all of His qualities inside of him/her, which manifest perfectly. 

Imams (عليه السلام) manifest God's qualities perfectly. They are His face. If you want to know God, know your Imam (عليه السلام). 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The idea of the body and the soul being two separate entities is a dualistic idea that crept into Christianity from Gnostic Dualism.  This is where the notions of the body being evil, or the body needing to be deprived (came

This has more to do by the way the heretics discussed the concept.

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

For the record, I never said anything of a mixture (nor was I implying a mixture).

And no, the body is not a "container".  At all.  

Hypothetically, if our bones suddenly became metal, then we'd all be cyborgs, but we would not be "cybernetic organisms" because we'd still be 'me' -ourselves.

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Posted (edited)

@Dave follower of The Way Thanks for the response. I invite you to read Nahjul Balagha (The Peak of Eloquence), by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) (the cousin and successor of the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-186-he-who-assigns-him-different-conditions-does-not-believe

Here is a sneak peek:

Quote

Stillness and motion do not occur in Him, and how can that thing occur in Him which He has Himself made to occur, and how can a thing revert to Him which He first created, and how can a thing appear in Him which He first brought to appearance. If it had not been so, His Self would have become subject to diversity, His Being would have become divisible (into parts), and His reality would have been prevented from being deemed Eternal. 

If there was a front to Him there would have been a rear also for Him. He would need completing only if shortage befell Him. In that case signs of the created would appear in Him, and He would become a sign (leading to other objects) instead of signs leading to Him. Through the might of His abstention (from affectedness) He is far above being affected by things which affect others.

 

Edited by Ejaz
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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The idea of the body and the soul being two separate entities is a dualistic idea that crept into Christianity from Gnostic Dualism.  This is where the notions of the body being evil, or the body needing to be deprived (came about).  

@Mohammad313Ali

I have heard this is why we (Shiites) have jurisprudential rulings of refraining from shaking the hand of the opposite gender, covering the body through the hijab or beard, and why being mushrik (the true mânâ of mushrik) leads to physical najasa. Because the body is a manifestation of the soul.

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13 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So you cannot truly separate your corporeal body from your nafs, as they are two sides of the same coin (just as meaning and form are two sides of the same coin).  It is certainly not the case that the nafs is "IN" the corporeal body.     

So how it happens that nafs leaves this material body at the time of death & during our sleep?

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10 hours ago, Ejaz said:

I have heard this is why we (Shiites) have jurisprudential rulings of refraining from shaking the hand of the opposite gender, covering the body through the hijab or beard, and why being mushrik (the true mânâ of mushrik) leads to physical najasa. Because the body is a manifestation of the soul.

This is just an Islamic Doctrine.  It is no particularly Shiite.  The rulings are not really derived from the doctrine in this case.  

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