This Twitter Thread on Rape...

[KnowledgeSeeker36]

Asalamu Alaikum, 

Hi, can anyone parse through this Twitter thread and explain it to me? What are we to make of this? 

Thanks 

 

[AkhiraisReal]

gross and disgusting.

[Ali_Hussain]

wa 'alaykum assalam,

He is stating some different fiqhi opinions, though it seem abhorrent to most of us (especially depending on the type of coercion) I would imagine that you can find fuqaha from the imamiyya who also have such a fatwa.

[Abu_Zahra]

It would be easier if you simply state what your objections are here, but as @Ali_Hussain has already mentioned you will probably find similar fiqhi positions in our madhab as well. 

 

[starlight]

In islamic law there isn't such a thing as marital rape. Nikkah is the 'consent'. 

[KnowledgeSeeker36]

10 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

It would be easier if you simply state what your objections are here, but as @Ali_Hussain has already mentioned you will probably find similar fiqhi positions in our madhab as well. 

 

Salaam, I first joined ShiaChat about 2 years ago to genuinely gain knowledge on matters pertaining to Islam. When I posted this it wasn’t really a matter of objection outwardly, rather to just understand the matter generally so then I have an understanding of where our fiqh lands so then I have an idea where to be land/be. Most of my posts on ShiaChat are actually of this matter. I apologize if I seemed to be an outward critique on my post. Maybe I should have worded it better, but I wanted to understand. I actually do thank you for contributing to my thread, it does help! 

[starlight]

2 minutes ago, KnowledgeSeeker36 said:

rather to just understand the matter generally so then I have an understanding of where our fiqh lands s

According to fiqh, marriage contract stripped down is : man is has right to intercourse and woman has right to get maintenance from man.

As long as she is getting nafaqa she cannot deny him intercourse.

If the man doesn't provide him necessary maintenance she has the right to use his money for food etc without taking his permission and ....viceversa. 

[KnowledgeSeeker36]

17 minutes ago, starlight said:

According to fiqh, marriage contract stripped down is : man is has right to intercourse and woman has right to get maintenance from man.

As long as she is getting nafaqa she cannot deny him intercourse.

If the man doesn't provide him necessary maintenance she has the right to use his money for food etc without taking his permission and ....viceversa. 

These comments are helpful as I have just started reading threads on this topic that I didn’t check if they existed...time to read and learn. Sorry if it’s repetitive! 

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, KnowledgeSeeker36 said:

Salaam, I first joined ShiaChat about 2 years ago to genuinely gain knowledge on matters pertaining to Islam. When I posted this it wasn’t really a matter of objection outwardly, rather to just understand the matter generally so then I have an understanding of where our fiqh lands so then I have an idea where to be land/be.

Walaikum as salam. Thanks for your reply. Perhaps I misphrased my post. Rather than objections, I would say if there are specific questions or points that are listed then they can be addressed inshaAllah.

Was it only about sexual consent in marriage (which is already being discussed in this thread) or are there also other points to clarify? 

[AkhiraisReal]

6 hours ago, starlight said:

In islamic law there isn't such a thing as marital rape. Nikkah is the 'consent'. 

 

6 hours ago, starlight said:

According to fiqh, marriage contract stripped down is : man is has right to intercourse and woman has right to get maintenance from man.

As long as she is getting nafaqa she cannot deny him intercourse.

If the man doesn't provide him necessary maintenance she has the right to use his money for food etc without taking his permission and ....viceversa. 

There's a difference between "forcing" your wife to sex and her giving you sex whether she likes it or not.

 

[313_Waiter]

Basically, jurisprudence covers dunyawi punishments and what could be proven (there is diya for bruises or red skin). Divorce or khula is always an option.

Quote

Such is the chastisement, and certainly the chastisement of the hereafter is greater, did they but know! 68:33

 

[Haydar Husayn]

As often with these kind of discussions, a little bit more context would be in order rather than just presenting the bare minimum facts. It’s so irresponsible for people to make threads like that, on twitter of all places! That guy has no idea what people’s level of knowledge is, their level of faith, their world view, or anything.

Anyway, the issue here is obviously there is no legal concept of martial rape in Islam in the sense that is understood in the modern West (although even there, it was only made criminal relatively recently). So maybe in a theoretical sense you could say it was ‘allowed’. But in reality if the wife really refuses to consent you will almost certainly end up causing physical damage of some kind, which is haram (not to mention very stupid). It might also be possible to argue that given modern conceptions of rape and consent, this would be far more traumatic for a woman today than it may have been in times where this was relatively normal or expected. So the psychological damage will be far greater, and hence harmful in itself. Either way, this is completely stupid and against the example of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

[Follower of Ahlulbayt]

12 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Anyway, the issue here is obviously there is no legal concept of martial rape in Islam in the sense that is understood in the modern West (although even there, it was only made criminal relatively recently). So maybe in a theoretical sense you could say it was ‘allowed’. But in reality if the wife really refuses to consent you will almost certainly end up causing physical damage of some kind, which is haram (not to mention very stupid). 

I used to use this argument all the time as well. Based on the secondary principle that we are not allowed to harm others, coercive sex would be considered haram.

However, the twitter thread seems to reply to this argument. There are instances where the Qur'an allows us to harm others (for example, the wife beating verse).

From my understanding of the thread, the guy seems to be arguing that coercive sex is one of those exceptions where you are allowed to harm others. I think he was arguing that if the wife refuses to have sexual intercourse with the husband, then the husband is allowed to force himself on her (and thus, harm her) as a way to discipline her. This is the right of the husband as he provides for her. 

How would you respond?

[Cherub786]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:32 PM, starlight said:

In islamic law there isn't such a thing as marital rape. Nikkah is the 'consent'. 

With all due respect, this is a very wrong and scandalous statement. Islamic law gives all individuals the fundamental human right to say "no". The Hadith which says the Angels curse a woman who refuses her husband demonstrates that a husband cannot force himself on his wife without her permission, otherwise why the need to mention a scenario in which a wife is refusing her husband? It implies that sex can never be coerced.

[starlight]

42 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

With all due respect, this is a very wrong and scandalous statement.

If you look at the literal meaning of the word 'Nikkah' in Arabic you might find my statement even more 'scandalous' 

[Cherub786]

Just now, starlight said:

If you look at the literal meaning of the word 'Nikkah' in Arabic you might find my statement even more 'scandalous' 

The lughawi meaning of Nikah is irrelevant, it is the istilahi meaning which matters.

The lughawi meaning of sawm, for example, includes abstaining from speech. Does that mean when Allah commands us to keep a fast in Ramadan we cannot speak? No, because that is not the istilahi or terminological meaning in the Shari'ah. It is futile to use the linguistic meaning of a word to prove a Shari' mas'alah when it is contrary to the istilahi meaning.

[Mariam17]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:57 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I think he was arguing that if the wife refuses to have sexual intercourse with the husband, then the husband is allowed to force himself on her (and thus, harm her) as a way to discipline her. This is the right of the husband as he provides for her. 

How would you respond?

Ew. Do I really need to give a well articulated reply to even show why this twitter thread is just wrong. Firstly the (wife beating verse) has already been discussed with it’s different meanings in another topic so this argument is refuted. It’s not as simple as the man provides financially and the woman provides intercourse for him and khalas. On paper that lowkey sounds like some depressing weird version of prostitution. Look I’m not disagreeing that those two things should not be provided but it’s not as black and white. A husband and a wife are described as being clothes for one another. You don’t just force yourself upon someone like do I even have to explain how messed up that is.

[Mariam17]

15 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

The Hadith which says the Angels curse a woman who refuses her husband

Salam. How authentic is this Hadith?

[The Green Knight]

On 8/12/2020 at 9:45 AM, starlight said:

According to fiqh, marriage contract stripped down is : man is has right to intercourse and woman has right to get maintenance from man.

Uh oh .. sounds like a .. a contract? Man pays money woman provides nearness? No, no, no. Its holy union!! Where is the holiness?

OUR PATENTS DID THIS????!!!! Nooooooooo.

[starlight]

27 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

sounds like a .. a contract

Lolz, Nikkah is a contract. 

27 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

Where is the holiness?

Holiness : p? The kindness and mercy which should form core of every islamic marriage is the sprinkling of holiness. 

[Ali_Hussain]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:57 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I used to use this argument all the time as well. Based on the secondary principle that we are not allowed to harm others, coercive sex would be considered haram.

However, the twitter thread seems to reply to this argument. There are instances where the Qur'an allows us to harm others (for example, the wife beating verse).

From my understanding of the thread, the guy seems to be arguing that coercive sex is one of those exceptions where you are allowed to harm others. I think he was arguing that if the wife refuses to have sexual intercourse with the husband, then the husband is allowed to force himself on her (and thus, harm her) as a way to discipline her. This is the right of the husband as he provides for her. 

How would you respond?

It probably depends what kind of force is used, in the context, physically overpowering her is probably acceptable, but headbutting her in the nose, then kicking her a few times in the ribs and then forcing himself on her would require him to pay blood money for the injuries that she sustained.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Ali_Hussain

[Cherub786]

2 hours ago, Mariam17 said:

Salam. How authentic is this Hadith?

It is متفق عليه in other words, as authentic as it gets

[Mariam17]

1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

It is متفق عليه in other words, as authentic as it gets

But this level is not as high as Sahih, it’s just agreed upon scholars i.e Sunni scholars. I would like to know if there is an equivalent Hadith in the Shia school of thought. I understand that both the woman and the man should act as clothes to one another and provide intimacy but this Hadith (Allah forgive me if I’m wrong) doesn’t sit well in taking all circumstances into account. i.e what if the wife is exhausted and has work the next day, is she going to be cursed all night? What if she’s sick, or someone has died that she knows of and erm because of such I don’t know isn’t in the mood. 

[Cherub786]

8 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

But this level is not as high as Sahih, it’s just agreed upon scholars i.e Sunni scholars. I would like to know if there is an equivalent Hadith in the Shia school of thought. I understand that both the woman and the man should act as clothes to one another and provide intimacy but this Hadith (Allah forgive me if I’m wrong) doesn’t sit well in taking all circumstances into account. i.e what if the wife is exhausted and has work the next day, is she going to be cursed all night? What if she’s sick, or someone has died that she knows of and erm because of such I don’t know isn’t in the mood. 

You are mistaken, Muttafaqun alaih means the Hadith is Sahih but it appears in both Bukhari and Muslim, that it what is meant by "agreed upon", so it is on a higher level than simply being Sahih.

The Hadith is a general statement, Allah knows best whether she is deserving of Angels cursing her in specific circumstances as the ones you've mentioned. But there is another Hadith which teaches that if a woman is baking bread, something that requires careful attention, and suddenly her husband calls her to have sex, she ought to drop everything and go to him. In other words, a wife should be willing to take some minor form of convenience to be with her husband. Dr. Farhat Hashmi once explained this shouldn't be considered unfair, because a husband also has to deal with a lot of hardship in that he works all day outside home just to feed and clothe his wife and children, so his wife should also be willing to endure some minor inconvenience. Nevertheless, I find nothing in the Shari'ah which gives a husband license to force himself on his wife, as some people are arguing in this thread based on their particular fiqh. It is a basic human right for anyone to say "no" to their spouse, whether that is right or wrong, it has to be respected. This is why the Hadith says the Angels curse her, it doesn't tell the husband to force his wife.

[Mariam17]

@Cherub786 Salam brother. Sahih is translated as “true” so you can’t just say that it is on the grade of Sahih (which is the highest level of authenticity) because it is give the grade Muttafaqun alaiah. It has to be given the specific Sahih grade which is above Muttafaqun. If it is true that it is “Sahih” like you state and that it’s is agreed upon by scholars then it would be given the grade Sahih Muttafaqun alaiah.

 

16 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The Hadith is a general statement, Allah knows best whether she is deserving of Angels cursing her in specific circumstances as the ones you've mentioned. But there is another Hadith which teaches that if a woman is baking bread, something that requires careful attention, and suddenly her husband calls her to have sex, she ought to drop everything and go to him. In other words, a wife should be willing to take some minor form of convenience to be with her husband. Dr. Farhat Hashmi once explained this shouldn't be considered unfair, because a husband also has to deal with a lot of hardship in that he works all day outside home just to feed and clothe his wife and children, so his wife should also be willing to endure some minor inconvenience. Nevertheless, I find nothing in the Shari'ah which gives a husband license to force himself on his wife, as some people are arguing in this thread based on their particular fiqh. It is a basic human right for anyone to say "no" to their spouse, whether that is right or wrong, it has to be respected. This is why the Hadith says the Angels curse her, it doesn't tell the husband to force his wife.

I agree with this point to an extent however a husband and wife are described as clothes for one another, i.e it works both ways.

I completely agree that a husband should not force himself on his wife without her consent just because she physically weaker. What if that was your sister?

[Cherub786]

8 minutes ago, Mariam17 said:

@Cherub786 Salam brother. Sahih is translated as “true” so you can’t just say that it is on the grade of Sahih (which is the highest level of authenticity) because it is give the grade Muttafaqun alaiah. It has to be given the specific Sahih grade which is above Muttafaqun. If it is true that it is “Sahih” like you state and that it’s is agreed upon by scholars then it would be given the grade Sahih Muttafaqun alaiah.

When we say muttafaqun alaih it is already implied that it is Sahih, so it would be redundant to say "Sahih Muttafaqun alaih".

Mutaffaqun alaih is a category of Sahih hadith which is higher in level than an ordinary Sahih Hadith.

And Mutawatir is even higher than mutaffaqun alaih. Mutawatir is the highest level of Hadith in terms of authenticity. But we don't say "Sahih Mutawatir" as that would be redundant.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Cherub786