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In the Name of God بسم الله

Unity of acts (tawhid al-afʿal)

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Salaam Aleikum, 

From wikishia:

Twelver Shiite theologians do not see any contradiction between the attribution of human actions to themselves and to God at the same time. They maintain that human causation of acts is dependent on divine causation, and therefore human actions are attributable both to humans and to God.

Sheikh Mufid state the following:

i) that all actions are from Allah, the Sublime, or,

ii) that they proceed jointly from man and Allah, or

iii) that they are from man alone.

Now, if they were all from Allah, the Sublime, then He alone deserves to be praised for their goodness or to be blamed for their baseness, and so praise or blame for them pertain to none save Him; if they are created jointly by Allah and His servant, then the praise or the blame would pertain to them both. Since these two alternatives are absurd, it is self-evident that human actions are all from men; it rests with Him; if He pleases, He has the right to punish them for their wickedness, or if He pleases He will pardon them, for the reward of piety and forgiveness is in His hands. And there are still further traditions and reports which can be adduced in support of this.

- I believe that sheikh Mufid have very reasonable and valid point and he have quoted quranic verses that support his position very well and that people have misinterpreted these verses way off. 

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We orthodox Sunni Muslims believe Allah Azza wa Jalla is the Creator of our actions, but that we earn them. This is known as the doctrine of Kasb. So the action itself is created by Allah, but the res

Now as for our orthodox Sunni Islamic doctrine that I have described above, that Allah Most High is the Creator of our deeds, it is 100% substantiated by the Holy Quran: وَاللَّـهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَم

Salaam Aleikum,  From wikishia: Twelver Shiite theologians do not see any contradiction between the attribution of human actions to themselves and to God at the same time. They maintain that

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We orthodox Sunni Muslims believe Allah Azza wa Jalla is the Creator of our actions, but that we earn them. This is known as the doctrine of Kasb. So the action itself is created by Allah, but the responsibility of their goodness or evil is upon the human, because he or she earned the committing of that act due to the condition of the heart and soul. Another way to understand it is that the act is done by the human of their own volition and intention, but that the act has to be created by Allah and humans don't have the power to create acts independently, in fact nothing can be created independent of Allah's power and authority. This solves the dilemma of responsibility for deeds while also maintaining the Lordship and Sovereignty of Allah. Our doctrine is opposed by two groups: 1. Mujbirah and 2. Qadariyah

Mujbirah believe that humans do not commit deeds in reality, but that Allah is the true doer of all things or فاعل الحقيقي and that it only appears or seems that human is doing the act, so he is the actor metaphorically فاعل المجازي. This false doctrine absolves humans of responsibility for their deeds, and even worse, it indicates that Allah is the actual doer of evil deeds, including adultery معاذ الله

Qadariyah believe that humans are the creators of their own deeds absolutely and independent of Allah. This doctrine is false because it impugns the sovereignty of Allah, and it is an example of dualism, because it indicates that there are independent creators that are outside the Power of Allah, namely, humans.

This doctrine of the Qadariyah is inherited and held to be true by the Mu'tazilah and the Shi'ah.

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We orthodox Sunni Muslims believe Allah Azza wa Jalla is the Creator of our actions, but that we earn them. 

We come to this verse, which can only means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) actions only related to what is Goodness, so how our evil actions can be from God by saying that He created them too when the action is not well?

Everything that He created He made well [32:7],

And Allah wishes no injustice for His servants [40:31],

Quote

So the action itself is created by Allah, but the responsibility of their goodness or evil is upon the human, because he or she earned the committing of that act due to the condition of the heart and soul.

What I understand is that God created the Intelligence and it opposite the Ignorance and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave us the ability to choose between obeying or disobeying and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made for us clearly what is good and He only wish that from us and when we disobey him by our own intention and action we call it the evil action. This evil action is from us, so we call it our action. 

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19 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

We come to this verse, which can only means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) actions only related to what is Goodness, so how our evil actions can be from God by saying that He created them too when the action is not well?

Everything that He created He made well [32:7],

And Allah wishes no injustice for His servants [40:31],

What I understand is that God created the Intelligence and it opposite the Ignorance and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave us the ability to choose between obeying or disobeying and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made for us clearly what is good and He only wish that from us and when we disobey him by our own intention and action we call it the evil action. This evil action is from us, so we call it our action. 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

والصلاة والسلام على خاتم النبيين

والعاقبة للمتقين

I would like you to clarify your belief so we can reach some sort of result from this discussion. Please answer my following questions:

  1. Do you believe humans create their own actions/deeds?

  2. If the answer to first question is yes, do humans create them independently of the Will and Power of Allah?

  3. Do you believe Allah is the Creator of everything or only some things?

 

Now let me address your points:

You quoted the Ayah 32:7 which says

ٱلَّذِىٓ أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ خَلَقَهُ

Who perfected everything which He created (Sahih International translation)

Now you are using this Ayah as a proof that Allah does not create our evil actions. I would like to know how you reconcile this Ayah with the Ayah I already quoted (37:96) which says Allah creates human actions. You must reconcile this, otherwise it is an apparent contradiction in the holy Quran, and I assume you believe the holy Quran contains no contradictions.

 

You are also using this Ayah as a proof that anything Allah creates must necessarily be good and not evil, therefore, I ask you how do you reconcile this Ayah (32:7) with the following Ayah (113:2):

مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ

From the evil of that which He created (113:2)

 

Finally, it is inferred from your argument that you do not believe Allah is the Creator of our actions, and so you believe Allah is not the Creator of all things, but the Quran repeatedly says:

خَـٰلِقُ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ

Creator of all things

خَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ

He created all things

So before you use this Ayah (32:7) as a proof, you must reconcile it with the apparent statements of the Quran that Allah is the Creator of human deeds specifically (37:96) and that Allah is the Creator of everything.

 

Next, let us examine the Twelver Shi’ah interpretation of 32:7:

قوله { أحسن كل شيء خلقه } يدل على خلق كل شيء. فإن قلت كيف يدل قوله { أحسن كل شيء } على خلق كل شيء وقد نجد أشياء حسنة مما لم يخلقها. قيل: هذا كما قال: { خالق كل شيء } فأطلق اللفظ عاماً

(Majma al-Bayan of Shaykh Tabarsi)

Contrary to your argument, Shaykh Tabarsi is saying that this Ayah (32:7) is actually a proof that Allah is the Creator of all things, which would necessarily include human actions.

 

Now as for my answer, it is that the word ahsan in the context of this Ayah (32:7) does not mean morally or ethically good, but good and perfect in form and function, as virtually all of the exegetes have explained in their Tafasir. Therefore, it does not contravene the doctrine that Allah is the Creator of human deeds, both good and bad deeds.

 

As for the next Ayah (40:31) which you quoted, it does not relate to our discussion, because I already clarified that Allah creating our evil deeds does not necessitate injustice on His part. The doctrine of Kasb that I already explained means that Allah creates our good and bad deeds according to our intention and volition (free will). He does not compel us to do good or evil deeds, but only creates those deeds for us which we acquire and earn due to our intention and volition. So we are responsible for the good and evil of our actions. Our actions are attributed to us, but their Creator is Allah. Let me give you a parable to understand this point. If someone punches you in the face it is definitely an evil action. The sinful person who punched you did so of his own intention and free will, so he is guilty of the act and held responsible for it. But, it was Allah Who created the fist with which he punched you, it was Allah Who created the movement of the fist, it was Allah Who created the strength and power contained in that kinetic energy of moving the fist, it was Allah Who created the harm and pain that was caused by the fist. But though Allah created all those things, He is not responsible for the evil deed of that person punching you in the face, He only created the instruments through which it could be done, but the sinful person decided to use those instruments with his own intention and volition.

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On 8/12/2020 at 9:41 AM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum, 

From wikishia:

Twelver Shiite theologians do not see any contradiction between the attribution of human actions to themselves and to God at the same time. They maintain that human causation of acts is dependent on divine causation, and therefore human actions are attributable both to humans and to God.

Sheikh Mufid state the following:

i) that all actions are from Allah, the Sublime, or,

ii) that they proceed jointly from man and Allah, or

iii) that they are from man alone.

Now, if they were all from Allah, the Sublime, then He alone deserves to be praised for their goodness or to be blamed for their baseness, and so praise or blame for them pertain to none save Him; if they are created jointly by Allah and His servant, then the praise or the blame would pertain to them both. Since these two alternatives are absurd, it is self-evident that human actions are all from men; it rests with Him; if He pleases, He has the right to punish them for their wickedness, or if He pleases He will pardon them, for the reward of piety and forgiveness is in His hands. And there are still further traditions and reports which can be adduced in support of this.

- I believe that sheikh Mufid have very reasonable and valid point and he have quoted quranic verses that support his position very well and that people have misinterpreted these verses way off. 

Salam,

I made this thread which I think could be beneficial for you 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064187-saduq-vs-mufid-–-human-actions/

I disagree with shaykh al mufid’s opinion, and it seems to me like he just basically agreed with the mutazili position of tafwid.

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On 8/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, Cherub786 said:

We orthodox Sunni Muslims believe Allah Azza wa Jalla is the Creator of our actions, but that we earn them. This is known as the doctrine of Kasb. So the action itself is created by Allah, but the responsibility of their goodness or evil is upon the human, because he or she earned the committing of that act due to the condition of the heart and soul. Another way to understand it is that the act is done by the human of their own volition and intention, but that the act has to be created by Allah and humans don't have the power to create acts independently, in fact nothing can be created independent of Allah's power and authority.

I think you have misrepresent the ashari doctrine of kasb. The will (ikhtiyar/Irada) is created by God as well according to ashari doctrine. Humans literally have no genuine causal power at all. The whole act is created solely by God. It is hard to see how this view is going to reconcile moral responsibility.

See here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TTwelvers/status/1277114409253351425
 

Also read post to see why occasionalism leads to pantheism:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/01/metaphysical-middle-man.html?m=1

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt
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21 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I think you have misrepresent the ashari doctrine of kasb. The will (ikhtiyar/Irada) is created by God as well according to ashari doctrine. Humans literally have no genuine causal power at all. The whole act is created solely by God. It is hard to see how this view is going to reconcile moral responsibility.

See here:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TTwelvers/status/1277114409253351425
 

Also read post to see why occasionalism leads to pantheism:

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/01/metaphysical-middle-man.html?m=1

You're assuming I'm an Ashari which I'm not, nor am I therefore representing the Ashari doctrine. I disagree entirely with their concept of occassionalism and denial of causality. I lean closer to Hanbali theology.

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

You're assuming I'm an Ashari which I'm not, nor am I therefore representing the Ashari doctrine. I disagree entirely with their concept of occassionalism and denial of causality. I lean closer to Hanbali theology.

Oh my bad then, I thought you were Ash'ari because you mentioned "orthodox Sunni", which I generally consider to be the Asha'irah. Also, you mentioned kasb which I think was invented by the Asha'irah, not the Hanabila.

What is your view regarding causality? Is the action caused by both the creature and Allah? 

Also, are you Hanbali as in, Salafi? How do you interpret verses which mention yad, 'ayn, wajh etc.?

 

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Oh my bad then, I thought you were Ash'ari because you mentioned "orthodox Sunni", which I generally consider to be the Asha'irah. Also, you mentioned kasb which I think was invented by the Asha'irah, not the Hanabila.

What is your view regarding causality? Is the action caused by both the creature and Allah? 

Also, are you Hanbali as in, Salafi? How do you interpret verses which mention yad, 'ayn, wajh etc.?

 

I believe Allah is the creator of the action but that man is the doer فاعل of the action. So I do believe in secondary causation and in the reality of asbab, unlike the Asharis and their ridiculous occasionalism.

I'm not a Salafi, and I don't entirely agree with Hanbali theology, but I am theologically Hanbali more or less (and in law, jurisprudence I am Hanafi - generally speaking).

I believe Allah has two Hands, two Eyes, Face, and these are His Personal/Essential attributes. I also believe in Allah's attributes of action, like arriving, coming, happiness, love, fury, speaking, and so on and so forth. But of course, none of these Divine Attributes are comparable to created things.

Please check out my website to learn more about my personal theology and beliefs on a variety of subjects www.salvationfromhell.com

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2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I believe Allah is the creator of the action but that man is the doer فاعل of the action. So I do believe in secondary causation and in the reality of asbab, unlike the Asharis and their ridiculous occasionalism.

I'm not a Salafi, and I don't entirely agree with Hanbali theology, but I am theologically Hanbali more or less (and in law, jurisprudence I am Hanafi - generally speaking).

I believe Allah has two Hands, two Eyes, Face, and these are His Personal/Essential attributes. I also believe in Allah's attributes of action, like arriving, coming, happiness, love, fury, speaking, and so on and so forth. But of course, none of these Divine Attributes are comparable to created things.

Please check out my website to learn more about my personal theology and beliefs on a variety of subjects www.salvationfromhell.com

Oh ok very interesting.

For some reason the link isn't working.

I hope you don't mind if we have a discussion on your beliefs?

You say you are not Salafi, but what you say in the sentence sounds very Salafi. What aspects of Salafi aqeedah do you disagree with?

When you say Allah has two hands, eyes, and a face, do you accept this by the apparent meaning? 

Also, you say they are not comparable to created things. My question would be, do you think Allah's two hands for example, have a size? Even if this size is different/bigger than any other hand in creation, and even if we do not know the size, do you still affirm that Allah's hand has some size?

Also, with regards to the attributes of action you mentioned, do you think Allah changes? As in He goes through intrinsic change? In other words he is not speaking/loving/coming at one point, but then at some later point he starts the action?

Also, what do you say about attributes like power and knowledge? Are they identical to God? Or distinct?

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6 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Oh ok very interesting.

For some reason the link isn't working.

I hope you don't mind if we have a discussion on your beliefs?

You say you are not Salafi, but what you say in the sentence sounds very Salafi. What aspects of Salafi aqeedah do you disagree with?

When you say Allah has two hands, eyes, and a face, do you accept this by the apparent meaning? 

Also, you say they are not comparable to created things. My question would be, do you think Allah's two hands for example, have a size? Even if this size is different/bigger than any other hand in creation, and even if we do not know the size, do you still affirm that Allah's hand has some size?

Also, with regards to the attributes of action you mentioned, do you think Allah changes? As in He goes through intrinsic change? In other words he is not speaking/loving/coming at one point, but then at some later point he starts the action?

Also, what do you say about attributes like power and knowledge? Are they identical to God? Or distinct?

The link should work, just copy and paste it in your address bar. Here is another URL islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.com

1. I more or less agree with Salafi/Athari/Hanbali creed as it pertains to Allah's Attributes, but creed encompasses other matters too, so it is not necessary that I will always agree with their creed on every subject and issue. Specifically, I disagree strongly with Ibn Taymiyah's belief in tasalsul fil hawadith or an infinite regress in events. According to that doctrine, Allah's act of creating has no beginning, and so it cannot be said that there is any one thing which is the first creation in an absolute sense, nor can it be said that there was ever a time when Allah was alone by Himself. I totally disagree with this belief. I believe Allah existed and there was nothing with Him, then He decided to create the creation, which He created from nothingness, i.e., creatio ex nihilo.

2. I accept the apparent meaning, yes, but I do not explain or imagine the modality or the كيفية

3. I cannot speak of size because I fall silent where the Divinely revealed texts are silent. That is the methodology of the Hanbali/Athari creed, we cannot speculate on matters that we have no knowledge about as it pertains to Allah's Essence and Attributes.

4. I do not describe that as "change", but I do believe that Allah's attributes of activity are tied to His will, so He speaks when He wishes. I cannot speculate on whether Allah is eternally speaking or if He speaks then ceases to speak then speaks again, etc. I cannot speculate on such matters as a matter of caution.

5. The attributes of Allah like power and knowledge are Divine, but they are not identical to His Essence.

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3 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The link should work, just copy and paste it in your address bar. Here is another URL islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.com

1. I more or less agree with Salafi/Athari/Hanbali creed as it pertains to Allah's Attributes, but creed encompasses other matters too, so it is not necessary that I will always agree with their creed on every subject and issue. Specifically, I disagree strongly with Ibn Taymiyah's belief in tasalsul fil hawadith or an infinite regress in events. According to that doctrine, Allah's act of creating has no beginning, and so it cannot be said that there is any one thing which is the first creation in an absolute sense, nor can it be said that there was ever a time when Allah was alone by Himself. I totally disagree with this belief. I believe Allah existed and there was nothing with Him, then He decided to create the creation, which He created from nothingness, i.e., creatio ex nihilo.

2. I accept the apparent meaning, yes, but I do not explain or imagine the modality or the كيفية

3. I cannot speak of size because I fall silent where the Divinely revealed texts are silent. That is the methodology of the Hanbali/Athari creed, we cannot speculate on matters that we have no knowledge about as it pertains to Allah's Essence and Attributes.

4. I do not describe that as "change", but I do believe that Allah's attributes of activity are tied to His will, so He speaks when He wishes. I cannot speculate on whether Allah is eternally speaking or if He speaks then ceases to speak then speaks again, etc. I cannot speculate on such matters as a matter of caution.

5. The attributes of Allah like power and knowledge are Divine, but they are not identical to His Essence.

That link doesn't work either. It says "islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.com didn’t send any data."

You do not explain the modality, but do you think there is one? Yes, while the revealed texts do not use the term size, this is the apparent/literal implication of the text. For example, do you believe Allah's hand is bigger than our hand, or smaller than our hand? The apparent meaning of the text implies that His hand is bigger than ours. But, this would then mean Allah's hand has a size. Even if we do not know "how much" bigger Allah's hand is, it will still have a measurement.

When Allah descends on Thursday night for example, does Allah go from not descending before the night, and then he starts to descend when night time happens? This would be an example of change. 

Ok, so you believe attributes like power and knowledge are distinct. Are they necessary or contingent?  

 

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

That link doesn't work either. It says "islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.com didn’t send any data."

You do not explain the modality, but do you think there is one? Yes, while the revealed texts do not use the term size, this is the apparent/literal implication of the text. For example, do you believe Allah's hand is bigger than our hand, or smaller than our hand? The apparent meaning of the text implies that His hand is bigger than ours. But, this would then mean Allah's hand has a size. Even if we do not know "how much" bigger Allah's hand is, it will still have a measurement.

When Allah descends on Thursday night for example, does Allah go from not descending before the night, and then he starts to descend when night time happens? This would be an example of change. 

Ok, so you believe attributes like power and knowledge are distinct. Are they necessary or contingent?  

 

Okay, perhaps it is an issue with your browser or server, perhaps someone else can check to see if my links to my blog are working.

1. Yes there is a modality.

2. It is not necessary that there is an implication of size. We simply do not know nor can we speculate. Yes we can say that Allah's Hands are larger than our hands without meaning that in terms of size. After all, Allah Himself is Large and Larger الكبير اكبر. So we can use the terms large and larger, but not necessary referring to size. That is because large and larger are not always used to describe size, they can also be used to describe rank, etc. Also, it is not necessary that something which is larger in terms of size have a measurement, for example, infinity cannot be measured, so infinitely larger in size cannot be measured either. At any rate, we simply fall silent where the Text is not explicit, therefore we do not speak in terms of size whatsoever.

3. We cannot speculate on how Allah descends. We just believe He does, and the modality is known to Him not us.

4. What do you mean by necessary and contingent in this context?

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On 8/12/2020 at 5:51 AM, Cherub786 said:

وَاللَّـهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ

Allah created you and that which you do (your deeds)

(Surah 37:96)

And Allah Created you, and what are you doing?

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14 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Okay, perhaps it is an issue with your browser or server, perhaps someone else can check to see if my links to my blog are working.

1. Yes there is a modality.

2. It is not necessary that there is an implication of size. We simply do not know nor can we speculate. Yes we can say that Allah's Hands are larger than our hands without meaning that in terms of size. After all, Allah Himself is Large and Larger الكبير اكبر. So we can use the terms large and larger, but not necessary referring to size. That is because large and larger are not always used to describe size, they can also be used to describe rank, etc. Also, it is not necessary that something which is larger in terms of size have a measurement, for example, infinity cannot be measured, so infinitely larger in size cannot be measured either. At any rate, we simply fall silent where the Text is not explicit, therefore we do not speak in terms of size whatsoever.

3. We cannot speculate on how Allah descends. We just believe He does, and the modality is known to Him not us.

4. What do you mean by necessary and contingent in this context?

I agree, Allah can be large in the sense of rank. But, I do think that if you were to accept the apparent meaning of the text, then the necessary implication is that Allah has a size and it is larger than ours. Let me make my question more explicit. Do you think Allah's hand is larger than ours in terms of size, or is Allah's hand smaller than our hand in terms of size?

I do not think you would want to say God is infinitely large in size. If that were the case, then his hand would be in every space. So if you say Allah has a size, Allah's size would have a measurement that is not infinite.

I was not asking how Allah descends. You agree Allah descends on Thursday right? Does he start descending on Thursday night or Thursday morning?

By necessary I mean uncaused, and by contingent I mean caused. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Is this an alternative translation of the Ayah or are you actually asking me what I'm doing right now?

Yes, Allah has created you and what you're doing. Worshiping that which you yourself have made/carved. 

قَالَ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مَا تَنْحِتُونَ

I am challenging your translation straightforwardly. 

The verse 95 says Do you worship what YOU carve? The very next verse questioning them again while it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has created you, and what you are doing?

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5 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

I agree, Allah can be large in the sense of rank. But, I do think that if you were to accept the apparent meaning of the text, then the necessary implication is that Allah has a size and it is larger than ours. Let me make my question more explicit. Do you think Allah's hand is larger than ours in terms of size, or is Allah's hand smaller than our hand in terms of size?

I do not think you would want to say God is infinitely large in size. If that were the case, then his hand would be in every space. So if you say Allah has a size, Allah's size would have a measurement that is not infinite.

I was not asking how Allah descends. You agree Allah descends on Thursday right? Does he start descending on Thursday night or Thursday morning?

By necessary I mean uncaused, and by contingent I mean caused. 

Again, I do not agree that size is a necessary implication of the apparent meaning of the Text. Allah's Hand is larger than our hand, full stop. I do not speak in terms of size because that is speculation.

I am not actually saying Allah is infinitely larger in size. As I already clarified, I cannot speak of size with respect to Allah and His Attributes whatsoever. I merely pointed out that infinite size cannot be measured, that doesn't mean I am ascribing size to Allah. I neither ascribe size to Allah nor do I negate it. I simply cannot speculate therefore remain silent on the matter.

Yes I believe Allah descends every night, but again, I cannot say that at other times whether He is descending or not. That is again speculation and at the risk of repeating myself, I am not authorized to speculate on theology of the Divine Essence and Attributes.

With regard to Allah's Attributes like Power and Knowledge, they are eternal and not originated, is that what you are asking?

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9 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Finally, it is inferred from your argument that you do not believe Allah is the Creator of our actions, and so you believe Allah is not the Creator of all things, but the Quran repeatedly says:

خَـٰلِقُ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ

Creator of all things

خَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ

He created all things

So before you use this Ayah (32:7) as a proof, you must reconcile it with the apparent statements of the Quran that Allah is the Creator of human deeds specifically (37:96) and that Allah is the Creator of everything.

Please mind elaborating why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said: 

 إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا

As per your ideology He has created man either a shakir or a kafir. So Abu Laheb has refused because God has created him as kafir and merely the act of rejecting the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was performed by him. 

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1 minute ago, Logic1234 said:

Please mind elaborating why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said: 

 إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا

As per your ideology He has created man either a shakir or a kafir. So Abu Laheb has refused because God has created him as kafir and merely the act of rejecting the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was performed by him. 

There's no need to elaborate you've already stated my position: Allah created Abu Lahab, and Abu Lahab did the act of rejecting Islam.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Again, I do not agree that size is a necessary implication of the apparent meaning of the Text. Allah's Hand is larger than our hand, full stop. I do not speak in terms of size because that is speculation.

I am not actually saying Allah is infinitely larger in size. As I already clarified, I cannot speak of size with respect to Allah and His Attributes whatsoever. I merely pointed out that infinite size cannot be measured, that doesn't mean I am ascribing size to Allah. I neither ascribe size to Allah nor do I negate it. I simply cannot speculate therefore remain silent on the matter.

Yes I believe Allah descends every night, but again, I cannot say that at other times whether He is descending or not. That is again speculation and at the risk of repeating myself, I am not authorized to speculate on theology of the Divine Essence and Attributes.

With regard to Allah's Attributes like Power and Knowledge, they are eternal and not originated, is that what you are asking?

Do you believe Allah will grab the earth with His hand? How is this possible if Allah's hand is not bigger than ours in terms of size.

There are two options- either Allah's hand is bigger than ours in terms of size, or it is smaller. Do you think there is a third option? If so, what is that option?

Ok, let me use another example besides descending. You believe Allah becomes pleased right? Do you believe we cause Allah to become pleased? As in if I do a righteous action, Allah becomes pleased at the action? Before I did the action, Allah cannot be pleased of that action. Once I do the action, then Allah becomes pleased of that action. Another example- Do you believe Allah laughs? Again, do we cause Allah to laugh? That would mean, before I do an action that makes Allah laughs, Allah does not laugh. Only once I do the action, Allah will laugh. All of this is change. Do you believe Allah will grab the earth on the day of judgement? If so, clearly Allah is not doing that now (it is not the day of judgement). So, Allah will start doing the action when the day of judgement occurs, which again is Allah changing. 

No, I am not asking if they are eternal. I am asking if they are caused or uncaused. Something can be eternal, but still be caused to exist. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt
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5 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Do you believe Allah will grab the earth with His hand? How is this possible if Allah's hand is not bigger than ours in terms of size.

There are two options- either Allah's hand is bigger than ours in terms of size, or it is smaller. Do you think there is a third option? If so, what is that option?

Ok, let me use another example besides descending. You believe Allah becomes pleased right? Do you believe we cause Allah to become pleased? As in if I do a righteous action, Allah becomes pleased at the action? Before I did the action, Allah cannot be pleased of that action. Once I do the action, then Allah becomes pleased of that action. Another example- Do you believe Allah laughs? Again, do we cause Allah to laugh? That would mean, before I do an action that makes Allah laughs, Allah does not laugh. Only once I do the action, Allah will laugh. All of this is change. Do you believe Allah will grab the earth on the day of judgement? If so, clearly Allah is not doing that now (it is not the day of judgement). So, Allah will start doing the action when the day of judgement occurs, which again is Allah changing. 

No, I am not asking if they are eternal. I am asking if they are caused or uncaused. Something can be eternal, but still be caused to exist. 

Yes I believe Allah shall grab the Earth and roll up the Heavens with His Right Hand. But please pay attention: I do not know how nor can I speculate on the modality, therefore, your next question is moot and not applicable.

Yes there is a third option, but before I mention it, let me turn the tables. You believe in Allah, therefore, is He bigger than us in size or smaller? Is there a third option?

As for me, before I explain my third option, I will wait for you to explain yours, perhaps they will match.

Now what you describe as change, if that is change, then so be it. We do not use the term change because it is speculation. We restrict ourselves to terms that appear in the Divinely revealed and inspired Texts. But yes, you are right to point out that certain acts which Allah does are done at a specific time. But that does not necessitate change within the actual Essence of Allah.

So let me make this important disclaimer. We are speaking of theology of the Divine Essence and Attributes. In my madhhab, it is futile to attempt to delve deeply into the matter with such questions because at the end of the day they are beyond our comprehension. I notice in your pattern of questioning you are working under the Aristotelian model of metaphysics (which by the way is outdated), and trying to apply an old Greek philosophical model of logic to such an incomprehensible and beyond matter as Allah's Essence and Attributes.

As for your last question, now I understand what you mean, and so I say that Allah's Attributes like Power, Knowledge, Life are His necessary Attributes and not contingent, i.e., they are caused to exist by virtue of the existence of Allah's Essence.

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On 8/13/2020 at 4:34 AM, Cherub786 said:

Yes I believe Allah shall grab the Earth and roll up the Heavens with His Right Hand. But please pay attention: I do not know how nor can I speculate on the modality, therefore, your next question is moot and not applicable.

Yes there is a third option, but before I mention it, let me turn the tables. You believe in Allah, therefore, is He bigger than us in size or smaller? Is there a third option?

As for me, before I explain my third option, I will wait for you to explain yours, perhaps they will match.

Now what you describe as change, if that is change, then so be it. We do not use the term change because it is speculation. We restrict ourselves to terms that appear in the Divinely revealed and inspired Texts. But yes, you are right to point out that certain acts which Allah does are done at a specific time. But that does not necessitate change within the actual Essence of Allah.

So let me make this important disclaimer. We are speaking of theology of the Divine Essence and Attributes. In my madhhab, it is futile to attempt to delve deeply into the matter with such questions because at the end of the day they are beyond our comprehension. I notice in your pattern of questioning you are working under the Aristotelian model of metaphysics (which by the way is outdated), and trying to apply an old Greek philosophical model of logic to such an incomprehensible and beyond matter as Allah's Essence and Attributes.

As for your last question, now I understand what you mean, and so I say that Allah's Attributes like Power, Knowledge, Life are His necessary Attributes and not contingent, i.e., they are caused to exist by virtue of the existence of Allah's Essence.

Ok so you do not know if Allah's hand is bigger than mine in terms of size. That seems very strange if you want to accept the apparent meaning of the Qur'an.

I believe Allah is immaterial, and so I do not accept the apparent meaning of the verses which mention Allah's yad. Because Allah is immaterial, Allah does not have a size. 

If you agree with this, then I don't see how you can accept the apparent meaning of scripture. You won't find evidence which says Allah is immaterial in the Qu'ran or your hadith corpus, so I don't see how you can agree with this position.

Ok so we cause Allah to change according to your creed (even if you do not verbally admit this, I gave examples of where you essentially accept this). But Allah cannot change, since He is purely actual. 

I agree Allah is incomprehensible in a certain sense. But, some things we can comprehend about Allah. For example, we know Allah is not a man. We know Allah is not a stone or tree. We know Allah is not finite or limited. We know Allah does not change, He does not have parts, and He is not in a direction. We negate such limitations that are found in creation from Allah.

You contradict yourself in your last sentence. You say they are necessary, but then say that they are caused to exist. I literally just defined something being necessary as being uncaused. If you say they are caused to exist, then they must be contingent. 

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On 8/13/2020 at 4:49 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Ok so you do not know if Allah's hand is bigger than mine in terms of size. That seems very strange if you want to accept the apparent meaning of the Qur'an.

I believe Allah is immaterial, and so I do not accept the apparent meaning of the verses which mention Allah's yad. Because Allah is immaterial, Allah does not have a size. 

If you agree with this, then I don't see how you can accept the apparent meaning of scripture. You won't find evidence which says Allah is immaterial in the Qu'ran or your hadith corpus, so I don't see how you can agree with this position.

Ok so we cause Allah to change according to your creed (even if you do not verbally admit this, I gave examples of where you essentially accept this). But Allah cannot change, since He is purely actual. 

I agree Allah is incomprehensible in a certain sense. But, some things we can comprehend about Allah. For example, we know Allah is not a man. We know Allah is not a stone or tree. We know Allah is not finite or limited. We know Allah does not change, He does not have parts, and He is not in a direction. We negate such limitations that are found in creation from Allah.

You contradict yourself in your last sentence. You say they are necessary, but then say that they are caused to exist. I literally just defined something being necessary as being uncaused. If you say they are caused to exist, then they must be contingent. 

You believe Allah is immaterial. I do not say Allah is either material or immaterial (because I refuse to speculate). Now your original question is a third option for Allah's Hand being either larger or smaller in size. The third option has been presented by yourself, i.e., that Allah's Hand is immaterial, and therefore size does not apply to it. Note, I am not saying Allah or His Hands are immaterial, but I am not saying they are material either. According to your own logic, therefore, there are at least three options therefore it is not necessary that Allah's Hand is either larger in size or smaller compared to the human hand. You said "You won't find evidence which says Allah is immaterial in the Qu'ran or your hadith corpus, so I don't see how you can agree with this position." But you forgot to mention that the Quran and our Hadith corpus likewise does not have any statement that Allah is material.

I notice that all the examples of the things we can comprehend about Allah that you gave were negations and there wasn't any affirmation. Do you subscribe to apophatic theology?

Pardon me for the confusion on the last point. What I mean to say is that Allah's Attributes are eternal and necessary, meaning they are uncaused.

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9 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Ok so you do not know if Allah's hand is bigger than mine in terms of size. That seems very strange if you want to accept the apparent meaning of the Qur'an.

I believe Allah is immaterial, and so I do not accept the apparent meaning of the verses which mention Allah's yad. Because Allah is immaterial, Allah does not have a size. 

If you agree with this, then I don't see how you can accept the apparent meaning of scripture. You won't find evidence which says Allah is immaterial in the Qu'ran or your hadith corpus, so I don't see how you can agree with this position.

Ok so we cause Allah to change according to your creed (even if you do not verbally admit this, I gave examples of where you essentially accept this). But Allah cannot change, since He is purely actual. 

I agree Allah is incomprehensible in a certain sense. But, some things we can comprehend about Allah. For example, we know Allah is not a man. We know Allah is not a stone or tree. We know Allah is not finite or limited. We know Allah does not change, He does not have parts, and He is not in a direction. We negate such limitations that are found in creation from Allah.

You contradict yourself in your last sentence. You say they are necessary, but then say that they are caused to exist. I literally just defined something being necessary as being uncaused. If you say they are caused to exist, then they must be contingent. 

BTW, you seem knowledgeable in your madhhab. I hope you will engage me in a stimulating discussion on another subject, the issue of succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. I came to this forum to discuss that issue specifically and started my first thread on it in the Sunni-Shi'i Dialogue section.

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Posted (edited)
Quote
  1. Do you believe humans create their own actions/deeds?

  2. If the answer to first question is yes, do humans create them independently of the Will and Power of Allah?

  3. Do you believe Allah is the Creator of everything or only some things?

I believe that God originated and created everything because nothing the creation can bring to existence independently. Yes among is the attributes of Obedience and Disobdience that God define to us and the laws what is halal and haram. As for Human Actions, they are not independently from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), In the only sense that it is not God who choose such a actions for us but they choosed to themselves by the free will and potentials He created. If one shoots with the gun the innocent person, the intention of the shooter and his action is his own and are evil and all the rest that manifest depends on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). It is possible that God save the innocent man, so the action of Goodness will be Gods and the evil will be the man action.

What I agree with sheik Mufid is that The bad actions can only come from us. Because I don't believe that Everything what Happens is only God Actions and we are just witnessing God actions such that he chooses them for us. What is the point with punishment if we did not choose to act sinfully?

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 8/11/2020 at 7:41 PM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum, 

From wikishia:

Twelver Shiite theologians do not see any contradiction between the attribution of human actions to themselves and to God at the same time. They maintain that human causation of acts is dependent on divine causation, and therefore human actions are attributable both to humans and to God.

Sheikh Mufid state the following:

i) that all actions are from Allah, the Sublime, or,

ii) that they proceed jointly from man and Allah, or

iii) that they are from man alone.

Now, if they were all from Allah, the Sublime, then He alone deserves to be praised for their goodness or to be blamed for their baseness, and so praise or blame for them pertain to none save Him; if they are created jointly by Allah and His servant, then the praise or the blame would pertain to them both. Since these two alternatives are absurd, it is self-evident that human actions are all from men; it rests with Him; if He pleases, He has the right to punish them for their wickedness, or if He pleases He will pardon them, for the reward of piety and forgiveness is in His hands. And there are still further traditions and reports which can be adduced in support of this.

- I believe that sheikh Mufid have very reasonable and valid point and he have quoted quranic verses that support his position very well and that people have misinterpreted these verses way off. 

This is very Mutazili.

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On 8/13/2020 at 4:58 AM, Cherub786 said:

You believe Allah is immaterial. I do not say Allah is either material or immaterial (because I refuse to speculate). Now your original question is a third option for Allah's Hand being either larger or smaller in size. The third option has been presented by yourself, i.e., that Allah's Hand is immaterial, and therefore size does not apply to it. Note, I am not saying Allah or His Hands are immaterial, but I am not saying they are material either. According to your own logic, therefore, there are at least three options therefore it is not necessary that Allah's Hand is either larger in size or smaller compared to the human hand. You said "You won't find evidence which says Allah is immaterial in the Qu'ran or your hadith corpus, so I don't see how you can agree with this position." But you forgot to mention that the Quran and our Hadith corpus likewise does not have any statement that Allah is material.

I notice that all the examples of the things we can comprehend about Allah that you gave were negations and there wasn't any affirmation. Do you subscribe to apophatic theology?

Pardon me for the confusion on the last point. What I mean to say is that Allah's Attributes are eternal and necessary, meaning they are uncaused.

The fact Allah is immaterial is not speculation. It is a necessary implication of valid arguments that prove His existence.

My point was if you accept the Qur'an by the apparent meaning, there are two options. But if you don't accept the Qur'an by the apparent meaning, then you are allowed to have another option which is that Allah is immaterial. But, you accept the Quran by the apparent meaning, so from my understanding you have two options. And you agreed that you don't say Allah is immaterial. So tell me, what is your third option? Allah's hand is bigger than our hand in terms of size, or smaller or ....?

Even if you still want to insist that you don't believe Allah has a size and Allah is not material (or you don't know), you have already admitted that Allah's hand is changeable. This is problematic, as it introduces potency in God. But God is purely actual.

Depends on what you mean by apophatic theology. Yes, I do believe that a lot of God's attributes are negations. But, I believe that we still can make positive (albeit, imperfect) descriptions of God.

Ok so you essentially believe in multiple necessary/uncaused beings. You believe in multiple uncreated things. This is polytheism. But polytheism is false and there cannot be more than one necessary being. 

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Posted (edited)

You guys should listen to Cherub.  All of what he is saying about human action is affirmed in Higher learning within Shia circles.  Because it is the truth!   Like I said before, Shia theology is also mixed with non-Imami Mutazili ways of thinking.  

Edited by eThErEaL
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Just now, eThErEaL said:

You guys should listen to Cherub.  All of what he is saying is affirmed in Higher learning within Shia circles.  Because it is the truth!  

He believes Allah is mutable and is composed of parts. 

This is not affirmed (or at least, should not be affirmed) by any Shia in any circles. The Imams of Ahl al-Bayt condemned such beliefs. 

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33 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

BTW, you seem knowledgeable in your madhhab. I hope you will engage me in a stimulating discussion on another subject, the issue of succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. I came to this forum to discuss that issue specifically and started my first thread on it in the Sunni-Shi'i Dialogue section.

 

What do you mean by formal debate?

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3 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

He believes Allah is mutable and is composed of parts. 

This is not affirmed (or at least, should not be affirmed) by any Shia in any circles. The Imams of Ahl al-Bayt condemned such beliefs. 

Really? If so then all of you are wrong. Lol

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On 8/13/2020 at 5:28 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

The fact Allah is immaterial is not speculation. It is a necessary implication of valid arguments that prove His existence.

My point was if you accept the Qur'an by the apparent meaning, there are two options. But if you don't accept the Qur'an by the apparent meaning, then you are allowed to have another option which is that Allah is immaterial. But, you accept the Quran by the apparent meaning, so from my understanding you have two options. And you agreed that you don't say Allah is immaterial. So tell me, what is your third option? Allah's hand is bigger than our hand in terms of size, or smaller or ....?

Even if you still want to insist that you don't believe Allah has a size and Allah is not material (or you don't know), you have already admitted that Allah's hand is changeable. This is problematic, as it introduces potency in God. But God is purely actual.

Depends on what you mean by apophatic theology. Yes, I do believe that a lot of God's attributes are negations. But, I believe that we still can make positive (albeit, imperfect) descriptions of God.

Ok so you essentially believe in multiple necessary/uncaused beings. You believe in multiple uncreated things. This is polytheism. But polytheism is false and there cannot be more than one necessary being. 

Your first point is a logical fallacy, it is a circular argument. I hope you can see that.

I don't agree with your assertion that the apparent meaning of the Quran necessitates Allah is a material being. You must prove your assertion.

Apophatic theology says you cannot make any positive statement about God whatsoever, only negations. My issue is when you say we can make positive descriptions of God but that they are imperfect. How is it imperfect to say God is alive or God is powerful?

Attributes are not "beings". Belief in multiple uncreated "things" is not polytheism either. That is Mu'tazili logic that the multiplicity of Divine attributes equals polytheism. Polytheism is defined as the multiplicity of deities or divine beings, not the multiplicity of Divine Attributes of a single Deity.

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