Why do some Muslims believe that there is no Mahdi

[Ali2196 123]

I’ve met some Muslims and even seen some online where they say there is no imam Mahdi he will never come and doesn’t exist. It’s not subject to Shia/Sunni but rather some random so called Muslims. Why would they think this?

[Mariam17 286]

I think it’s purely a matter of ignorance or Wahabi propaganda. My cousin is a Sayed and his name is Mehdi but he is Sunni, so I feel that those “Muslims” that don’t believe in the reappearance of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) are less than those who do.

[Haydar Husayn 10,214]

They think this idea of a ‘saviour’ coming at the end of times is an import from other religions.

Ibn Khaldun famously held this view, but I don’t know if he was the first. So it’s got nothing to do with Wahhabi propaganda. Wahhabis generally believe on the Mahdi since they have many authentic narrations on it.

Edited August 11 by Haydar Husayn

[Quran313 277]

Imam Sadiq:" Reappearance of Mahdi takes long in a way that some doubt his existence, some don't believe it, and only some people keep believing in him".

[Cherub786 360]

I definitely believe in the promised Mahdi, but the problem is some sects have mythologized the concept of the Mahdi to such an extent that other Muslims, who are more inclined to rationality and logic, imagine this picture of the Mahdi is all there is (they don't consider the orthodox Sunni conception of the promised Mahdi عليه السلام) therefore, they end up dismissing the concept altogether.

[Guest Pschological Warfare]

fyi

Quote

Sunni Scholars

The names of 50 distinguished Sunni scholars, who have faith in and confirmed al-Mahdi’s birth, growth, occultation and reappearance, are given below:

here

https://www.al-islam.org/essence-holy-quran-eternal-light-mirza-mahdi-pooya/chapter-5-evidence-relating-birth-12th-imam-sunni#sunni-scholars

[Ali2196 123]

4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I definitely believe in the promised Mahdi, but the problem is some sects have mythologized the concept of the Mahdi to such an extent that other Muslims, who are more inclined to rationality and logic, imagine this picture of the Mahdi is all there is (they don't consider the orthodox Sunni conception of the promised Mahdi عليه السلام) therefore, they end up dismissing the concept altogether.

As mentioned and reason for mentioning this is because It wasn’t just mentioned by Shias but I said (muslims) meaning even sunnis idk why are saying they don’t believe in his return and I’m asking why and what made them think like that. Sunnis don’t believe what you just quoted so why do some still belive he won’t come. 

[Cherub786 360]

1 minute ago, Ali2196 said:

As mentioned and reason for mentioning this is because It wasn’t just mentioned by Shias but I said (muslims) meaning even sunnis idk why are saying they don’t believe in his return and I’m asking why and what made them think like that. Sunnis don’t believe what you just quoted so why do some still belive he won’t come. 

There is no concept of "return" of the Mahdi in Sunni Islam. We do not have a concept of Ghaybah with respect to our version of the Mahdi. I suspect this concept of Ghaybah is one of the main reasons some Muslims dismiss the concept of Mahdi altogether. It is also true that some Muslims dismiss the concept of the Mahdi because they imagine it is a Shi'ite or Abbasid fabrication that entered into the corpus of Sunni Hadith literature. Ghamidi, for example, does not believe in the concept of the Mahdi.

[Ali2196 123]

2 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

There is no concept of "return" of the Mahdi in Sunni Islam. We do not have a concept of Ghaybah with respect to our version of the Mahdi. I suspect this concept of Ghaybah is one of the main reasons some Muslims dismiss the concept of Mahdi altogether. It is also true that some Muslims dismiss the concept of the Mahdi because they imagine it is a Shi'ite or Abbasid fabrication that entered into the corpus of Sunni Hadith literature. Ghamidi, for example, does not believe in the concept of the Mahdi.

Bro you make me laugh I didn’t even quote something that should have been disagreed upon I think you love that button ahaha. No what I’m saying is from my personal experience as my friend & people I interact with is 80% Sunni of multiple madhabs to 20% Shias 

I have more Sunni friends than Shia. I work with more Sunni than Shia. I interact with more Sunni than Shia. Everything I say is because I’ve dealt with both Sunni and Shia and when I say some Muslims don’t believe in a Mahdi doesn’t mean because a Sunni brother thinks al Mahdi Shia no some just doesn’t belive in one. 

[Ali2196 123]

Ahahahahhaha the disagree button again 

[Cherub786 360]

5 minutes ago, Ali2196 said:

Bro you make me laugh I didn’t even quote something that should have been disagreed upon I think you love that button ahaha. No what I’m saying is from my personal experience as my friend & people I interact with is 80% Sunni of multiple madhabs to 20% Shias 

I have more Sunni friends than Shia. I work with more Sunni than Shia. I interact with more Sunni than Shia. Everything I say is because I’ve dealt with both Sunni and Shia and when I say some Muslims don’t believe in a Mahdi doesn’t mean because a Sunni brother thinks al Mahdi Shia no some just doesn’t belive in one. 

Obviously the vast majority of those Muslims who reject the Mahdi concept self-identify as Sunnis (but I would argue they are not Sunnis, because one of the articles of Sunnism is to believe in the advent of the Promised Mahdi). However, those Muslims are usually unaware of any difference between the Sunni and Shi'i versions of the Mahdi concept. Many of them may also be under the mistaken impression that Sunni Islam doesn't even have a concept of the Mahdi, so for them the only concept of the Mahdi they are familiar with is the Shi'i version, which they find to be irrational and therefore they end up disbelieving in the Mahdi concept altogether. 

Edited August 13 by Cherub786

[Ali2196 123]

15 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Obviously the vast majority of those Muslims who reject the Mahdi concept self-identify as Sunnis (but I would argue they are not Sunnis, because one of the articles of Sunnism is to believe in the advent of the Promised Mahdi). However, those Muslims are usually unaware of any difference between the Sunni and Shi'i versions of the Mahdi concept. Many of them may also be under the mistaken impression that Sunni Islam doesn't even has a concept of the Mahdi, so for them the only concept of the Mahdi they are familiar with is the Shi'i version, which they find to be irrational and therefore they end up disbelieving in the Mahdi concept altogether. 

Jazak allah for that reply lol. Yes that’s why I’m asking why do some choose not to belive because belief of imam Mahdi is part of both Sunni and Shia. Just wanted to know the reasoning of why they might not believe. That’s it I never wanted it to become a oh they arnt Sunni because they don’t belive in Mahdi but rather what do you think would have made them think that

[Sirius_Bright 4,253]

Some of them think they have not seen him, so he doesn't exist. 

Likewise, I have not seen their brain..

[Muhammed Ali 3,677]

There are some Sunnis who actually think that the idea of the Mahdi stops Muslims from overthrowing governments, because they are waiting for the Mahdi. These Sunnis tend to be some of the jihadi Wahabi types. 

[Mahdavist 2,787]

5 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Obviously the vast majority of those Muslims who reject the Mahdi concept self-identify as Sunnis (but I would argue they are not Sunnis, because one of the articles of Sunnism is to believe in the advent of the Promised Mahdi).

Is there really such a thing as 'article of Sunnism'? The Ahl us Sunnah wal Jama'ah is basically an umbrella category for tons of different groups that didn't clearly belong elsewhere. 

I think many would object to the claim that believing in the Mahdi is a fundamental of 'Sunnism'

 

[Cherub786 360]

4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Is there really such a thing as 'article of Sunnism'? The Ahl us Sunnah wal Jama'ah is basically an umbrella category for tons of different groups that didn't clearly belong elsewhere. 

I think many would object to the claim that believing in the Mahdi is a fundamental of 'Sunnism'

 

Ahlus Sunnati wal-Jama'ah is by no means an umbrella group, it is a specific group of Muslims that follow the Prophet's Sunnah, in creed and behavior, and adhere to the original Jama'ah, meaning the Sahabah رضى الله عنه.

It is true that there are many competing groups that self-identify as Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, but that does not mean it is an umbrella group, for they do not recognize each other's claims as valid.

On the other hand, the Shi'ah are an umbrella group because it contains many dozens of sects which are each legitimately described as Shi'i, the main ones that survive till this day being the Ithna Asharis, Isma'ilis, Zaydis and Alawis.

There have been books and books written on the creed of Sunnism which list its articles of faith systematically. Even more critically, the Sunni books of Hadith have chapter headings affirming the future appearance of the Mahdi, which makes it a fundamental of our sect (though not a fundamental article of Islam itself).

Therefore, any individual Muslim who denies the reality of the Mahdi is expelled from the circle of Sunnism as far as I'm concerned.

Edited August 13 by Cherub786

[Mahdavist 2,787]

8 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

There have been books and books written on the creed of Sunnism which list its articles of faith systematically.

Correct but they aren't necessarily consistent with one another.

You mention that believing in the mahdi is fundamental, others will say it isn't (for example)

Anyhow, this isn't the topic but I think it's misrepresentative to make this statement on behalf of the entire ahl us sunnah knowing how diverse it is

[Cherub786 360]

25 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Correct but they aren't necessarily consistent with one another.

You mention that believing in the mahdi is fundamental, others will say it isn't (for example)

Anyhow, this isn't the topic but I think it's misrepresentative to make this statement on behalf of the entire ahl us sunnah knowing how diverse it is

Do you at least agree that the belief in the second coming of the Messiah is one of the articles of Sunnism? It is mentioned in every one of our major manuals of creed, like Tahawi, Barbahari, Fiqh al-Akbar, and of course Sihhah as-Sitta.

Do you agree that many if not most of those Muslims who reject the Mahdi concept likewise reject the second coming of the Messiah?

In fact, unlike Shi'ism, the belief in the second coming of the Messiah is more important and more fundamental to Sunnism than the belief in the appearance of the Mahdi.

It's hard to see why someone will object to the Sunni concept of the Mahdi but believe in the second coming of Messiah. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, those individuals who reject the Mahdi concept, because they likely also reject the second coming of the Messiah, cannot be Sunnis, as the latter (Messiah) is an undisputed article of Sunnism, while the former (Mahdi) is an established belief in Sunnism though, admittedly, not at the same level.

[Mahdavist 2,787]

@Cherub786 brother I agree that it's in your books and that many of you believe in it. I am just pointing out that there are also those who don't. 

As you have seen in your debate thread, one could also say there are many narrations about imamah/wilayah of the ahlulbayt. However you have chosen to interpret in a certain way and would therefore object if I said it was a part of Sunni beliefs. 

[AmirioTheMuzzy 1,132]

On 8/13/2020 at 3:16 AM, Cherub786 said:

which they find to be irrational and therefore they end up disbelieving in the Mahdi concept altogether

You keep repeating this, but you understand that this isn't a real argument. They don't know about everything that built up to the Occultation of the 12th Imam, so they don't believe in it and think it's crazy. 

On 8/12/2020 at 9:58 PM, Cherub786 said:

who are more inclined to rationality and logic, imagine this picture of the Mahdi is all there is (they don't consider the orthodox Sunni conception of the promised Mahdi عليه السلام) therefore, they end up dismissing the concept altogether.

You keep conflating rationality and logic with naturalistic observation. Anyways, the Sunni conception is completely ridiculous. The Mahdi is not some regular guy down the street who doesn't know he's the Mahdi yet. 

[Cherub786 360]

53 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

You keep repeating this, but you understand that this isn't a real argument. They don't know about everything that built up to the Occultation of the 12th Imam, so they don't believe in it and think it's crazy. 

The point is they conceive of the Shi'ah Mahdi concept as irrational (rightly or wrongly is another discussion) and so reject it.

As for the occultation, if you study the issue from an unbiased, historical perspective, you come to some unavoidable conclusions that Twelver Shi'ah would find both offensive and a huge question mark on their faith (maybe I will discuss that some other time, it will require walking on egg shells to say the least since this is a Shi'ah forum).

Quote

You keep conflating rationality and logic with naturalistic observation. Anyways, the Sunni conception is completely ridiculous. The Mahdi is not some regular guy down the street who doesn't know he's the Mahdi yet. 

I'm not conflating, I'm merely explaining why most people reject the concept of the Mahdi (rightly or wrongly is another discussion). Nevertheless, I do believe that the Shi'ah concept of the Mahdi is irrational and illogical, but like I said, I won't discuss that now. For now, I will merely draw your attention to a few facts: 1. it is disputed whether the Eleventh Imam had a son as he was never married 2. the name of his alleged concubine and mother of the Mahdi is disputed and contradictory (Nargis, Sawsan, Maryam, Malika bint Yuwsha, Saqil, etc.), 3. according to Twelver sources there was no sign of pregnancy on her, which casts more suspicion, 4. the age of the Mahdi is disputed at the time of the Eleventh Imam's death, 5. during the Ghaybat al-Sughra he was represented by deputies or the Nawwab who had personal access to him but collected money in his name. The Ghaybat al-Sughra was not supernatural but basically can be understood as someone who is hiding from public view through natural means. The Mahdi communicated with Tawqi'at to his Shi'ah community through these deputies, but suspiciously, these Tawqi'at deal pretty much only with financial matters of collecting the Khums and declaring rival deputy claimants to be false - so most objective historians basically say that these various Nawwab deputies basically invented the story of the Eleventh Imam having a son so as to collect money for themselves in his name, 6. The Nawwab taught that the Mahdi would soon reappear when circumstances were right and seize power from the Abbasids, but after so many decades went by where by now the Mahdi would have aged considerably to an old man and the Shi'ah community began having doubts, they declared the Ghaybat al-Kubra, a supernatural occultation which has been going on for over a thousand years now

All of this, if you examine it dispassionately and academically, leads to only one conclusion. I'll let you make that conclusion yourself.

However, the Sunni concept of the Mahdi is definitely not ridiculous. You object to the fact that in our concept, the Mahdi is not initially aware of his position. By characterizing that as ridiculous, you have inadvertently ridiculed the Prophets too, since they too were unaware initially that they were Prophets until Allah revealed Himself to them and informed them that they were to be His Prophets and Apostles.

[AmirioTheMuzzy 1,132]

1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

By characterizing that as ridiculous, you have inadvertently ridiculed the Prophets too, since they too were unaware initially that they were Prophets until Allah revealed Himself to them and informed them that they were to be His Prophets and Apostles.

Shias don't believe this either. The Prophets knew they were Prophets since birth, before they began to 'Proselytize' (is that the right word?) I.e. They knew they were Prophets before Allah told them to start revealing His message.

[Cherub786 360]

1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Shias don't believe this either. The Prophets knew they were Prophets since birth, before they began to 'Proselytize' (is that the right word?) I.e. They knew they were Prophets before Allah told them to start revealing His message.

Evidence?

[Cherub786 360]

4 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Shias don't believe this either. The Prophets knew they were Prophets since birth, before they began to 'Proselytize' (is that the right word?) I.e. They knew they were Prophets before Allah told them to start revealing His message.

Prove to me that the Prophets Moses and Aaron عليهما السلام knew they were Prophets before Allah revealed to them.

How does a person know they are a Prophet before they receive Revelation? A Prophet by definition is someone who receives Revelation. So before God reveals to someone they are a Prophet they already know they are a Prophet? Totally illogical and absurd.

Also, explain why Prophet Aaron became a Prophet after his brother Moses prayed to Allah to make him a Prophet, and then Allah answered his prayer and made him a Prophet (Surah 20:29-36)

[Shahrukh K 294]

Why do some Muslims believe that there is no Mahdi

Because he is not mentioned in Quran.

[Ali2196 123]

9 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Why do some Muslims believe that there is no Mahdi

Because he is not mentioned in Quran.

So mostly only Quranists will say he doesn’t exsist?

[Shahrukh K 294]

11 hours ago, Ali2196 said:

So mostly only Quranists will say he doesn’t exsist?

I am a muslim.

[hasanhh 9,441]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:16 AM, Cherub786 said:

is to believe

The better wording is 'be confident.'

l have heard Sunnis reject the idea of a mahdi because either it's a Shi'a thing or they are under the impression that he is a nabi(which is not Quranically possible).

[Ibn Al-Shahid 1,912]

On 8/13/2020 at 12:04 PM, Cherub786 said:

There is no concept of "return" of the Mahdi in Sunni Islam. We do not have a concept of Ghaybah with respect to our version of the Mahdi. I suspect this concept of Ghaybah is one of the main reasons some Muslims dismiss the concept of Mahdi altogether. It is also true that some Muslims dismiss the concept of the Mahdi because they imagine it is a Shi'ite or Abbasid fabrication that entered into the corpus of Sunni Hadith literature. Ghamidi, for example, does not believe in the concept of the Mahdi.

Then you shouldn't believe in Khidr عليه السلام being a couple of thousands years of age and being concealed by Allah while not being a prophet or a messenger. 

[Cherub786 360]

42 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Then you shouldn't believe in Khidr عليه السلام being a couple of thousands years of age and being concealed by Allah while not being a prophet or a messenger. 

I don't. Sayyidina Khidr عليه السلام is deceased

[HusseinAbbas 229]

7 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

I don't. Sayyidina Khidr عليه السلام is deceased

Do you beleive in the return of Isa(عليه السلام) yes or no?

 

Because pretty much sure most sunnis beleive in his return and that he is alive and in ghaiba.

 

Also that is not what he said about Khidir(عليه السلام), he said that he was alive and concealed for thousand years, which means it is the same thing as immam Mahdi(aswj) but in the past, yes he is dead but the same thing happened so using your logic muslims should also reject Khidr(عليه السلام)

Edited August 17 by HusseinAbbas

[Ibn Al-Shahid 1,912]

Furthermore, if you only believe in the "Rational and logical" you shouldn't believe in Israa and Mi'raj. 

Miracles are neither rational or logical. They defy both. This is why they are miracles. Living for thousands of years and being concealed is a miracle. If you don't believe in miracles as well, well then, Maryam wasn't a virgin, Jesus didn't talk at birth, the child didn't testify for Yusuf, Musa's stick didn't turn into a snake and Israa and Miraj didn't happen to Muhammad.

استغفر الله والعياذ بالله

Edited August 17 by Ibn Al-Shahid

[Cherub786 360]

2 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Do you beleive in the return of Isa(عليه السلام) yes or no?

 

Because pretty much sure most sunnis beleive in his return and that he is alive and in ghaiba.

 

Also that is not what he said about Khidir(عليه السلام), he said that he was alive and concealed for thousand years, which means it is the same thing as immam Mahdi(aswj) but in the past, yes he is dead but the same thing happened so using your logic muslims should also reject Khidr(عليه السلام)

I believe in the Nuzul of sayyidina Masih عليه السلام but I am not certain about its modality. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that the prophecy of his second coming refers to the appearance of someone from this Ummah who resembles him and will emerge from the east of Damascus.

I completely reject any concept of a supernatural Ghaybah for any human mortal. I don't believe sayyidina Masih عليه السلام was raised to Heaven physically in his earthly body. I believe he was raised spiritually, and that in all likelihood he is deceased. Therefore, it is most probable that the prophecy of his second coming is not literal, but refers to the appearance of someone from this Ummah that has been given his name figuratively. This concept, incidentally, also reconciles the Nuzul of a Prophet with the cessation of Prophesy (33:40).

[Ashvazdanghe 7,905]

On 8/15/2020 at 1:53 AM, Cherub786 said:

Evidence?

Salam prophet Isa (عليه السلام) himself mentioned that he is prophet when he was a new born baby.

Quote

 

 (28) So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?" (29) [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. (30)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/19:30

[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." (110) 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:110

 

 

[Cherub786 360]

3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam prophet Isa (عليه السلام) himself mentioned that he is prophet when he was a new born baby.

You keep confusing an exceptional example as evidence of a general principle. You need to go back to Logic 101 class