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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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  • Veteran Member
12 hours ago, investigating said:

By the way how did you include Noah (عليه السلام) who was prior to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be the follower of the creed of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)?

Is Alisbat a name of one of the leaders among 12? Are you serious bro? I am not used to adopt insulting approach while discussing with our fellow Shia brothers. But don’t you think you are embarrassing yourself?

These are the TRIBES after Yaqub (عليه السلام). How can you consider the TRIBES after yaqub (عليه السلام) to be on the single name of leader to prove your point of 12?

The verses of Quran mentions about our Prophet that he has been instructed to follow the religion of Ibrahim a,s with principles of prophet hood and an Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Please do not misquote the facts.

There are hadith in sunni that quotes about the count of caliphs/ ameers/ imams after the prophet is twelve. The hadith in sunni and shia also mention their  names with Imam Ali is the first and Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) is last and 12th.

 The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

وَقَطَّعْنَاهُمُ اثْنَتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أَسْبَاطًا أُمَمًا ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ إِذِ اسْتَسْقَاهُ قَوْمُهُ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ ۖ فَانبَجَسَتْ مِنْهُ اثْنَتَا عَشْرَةَ عَيْنًا ۖ قَدْ عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُنَاسٍ مَّشْرَبَهُمْ ۚ وَظَلَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْغَمَامَ وَأَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَنَّ وَالسَّلْوَىٰ ۖ كُلُوا مِن طَيِّبَاتِ مَا رَزَقْنَاكُمْ ۚ وَمَا ظَلَمُونَا وَلَٰكِن كَانُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ يَظْلِمُونَ

And We divided them into twelve descendant tribes [as distinct] nations. And We inspired to Moses when his people implored him for water, "Strike with your staff the stone," and there gushed forth from it twelve springs.(7:160)

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. (5:12)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

My point is quite clearly proven in the light of above verses for Alasbat inclusion in the twelve leaders or names.

Edited by Muslim2010
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The Hadith is long so I won't quote the whole thing, Narrated `Aisha: Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of wh

Ahsantum brother I agree with you.  For me it was good for the forum to have this alternative method of one-on-one debate. Both members were respectful and I also appreciate that the other m

Try to quote the Arabic matn of the Hadith. Anyways, I know which Hadith you are quoting, and so I shall reproduce the original Arabic: إِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ م

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  • Veteran Member
12 hours ago, investigating said:

By the way how did you include Noah (عليه السلام) who was prior to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be the follower of the creed of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)?

I add the following verse that the religion of Nuh and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is the same.

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ نُوحٍ فِي الْعَالَمِينَإِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ثُمَّ أَغْرَقْنَا الْآخَرِينَ وَإِنَّ مِن شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ 

Peace and salutation to Nuh among the nations.Thus do We surely reward the doers of good.Surely he was of Our believing servants.Then We drowned the others.  And most surely Ibrahim followed his way. (37:80 - 83)

Thus confirming that there is no difference in religion and creed of Nuh (عليه السلام). and Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

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First Caliph appoints

Second caliph creates a shura

Holy  prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s leaves no successor leaving in the hand of Muslims to dispute. 

Why second Caliph didn't give the pen and paper to holy prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s? Afraid that he would write about his succession. 

And Ghadeer where lakhs of Muslim were halted in scorching heat  and holy prophet gave an entire sermon in the farewell pilgrimage just to say maula Ali (عليه السلام) is my friend 

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  • Advanced Member
14 hours ago, investigating said:

This ambigous verse thatapplies all belivers in general (not specifically to Ali(as)) serves no proof against the explicit proof for Divine Stations of Nabuwwah & Risaalah as the necessary belief for criteria of salvation.

I already proved that this verse came down because of Ali (عليه السلام) and even though it says believers it means one person. When I refer to something in one of my posts, go back and actually read it.

14 hours ago, investigating said:

The Fulflillment of the Ibrahim (عليه السلام) Supplication

The answer lies in the verse of Qur'an {Surat Al-`Ankabut (29:27)} in which Allah fulfilled Ibrahim (عليه السلام) supplication:

And We ordained among his offspring prophethood and the Book (scripture) (29:27)

Allah says in another verse:

We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD AND THE SCRIPTURE. [57:26]

Hence THIS concept of LEADERSHIP is exclusively for those who were given PROPHETHOOD & BOOK among the offspring of Hazrat Ibrahim AS & so likewise this SPECIFIC concept of Prophetic Leadership was also sealed just after our beloved Prophet saww departed!

In other verses of Quran like 21:73 you see that all of those who were from the generation of Ibrahim are referred to as Imams are prophets. (SEE THE VERSES BEFORE 2:173 FOR THE MENTION OF PROPHETS AMONG PROGENY OF IBRAHIM(عليه السلام)

And We made them IMAMS, guiding (mankind) by Our Command ……. (21:73)

This leadership can also refer to people who are not prophets as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in the Quran,

"...We delegated from among them twelve leaders..."

Those 12 leaders were not Prophets. With a single verse I can refute your whole claim.

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@Muslim2010

You are just ignoring the truth as described by the verse 2:124 where Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been raised to the status of Imam of mankind and he was already a prophet (عليه السلام).. Its not my mistake.

 

All of your focus is to falsely mix the word of "Choose" and "Raise" against the Arabic word of "Ja-a'lna" which over here (2:124) is a literal connotation for "General Leadership / Inspiration" for Mankind. 

Allah divinely choosing Messengers are connoted with the word of اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ throughout the Qur'an. 

Why haven't these words used for divine station of Imamah or Imams or any other non-divine station in Qur'an? This is yet another proof against considering this station as a separate divine station in addition to Prophethood & Messengership.

Also for direct sending, raising or appointment of someone (by Allah) is termed as وبعث in Qur'an. These appointments are mostly for infallible messengers and prophets and in a couple of cases it is also used for fallible king (Talut) and fallible 12 chieftains for Israelites. Interestigly, no where in the Qur'an ALLAH has used this verse for the appointment of 12 individuals among the progeny of Propet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or for the supposed separate station of Imamah in contrast to Nabuwwah not even in a sense of general Prophetic Leadership as well.

As far as the word Ja-alna is concerned, it is also used for ALLAH making "Leaders of Kufr". Obviously, it doesn't make them divinely appointment.

So referring to your question:

Quote

Do you deny that Ibrahim, Ishaque and Yaqub  (عليه السلام) were chosen as Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

As per Qur'an only Prophets & Messengers are chosen by Allah with connotation of word "اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ". No where in Qur'an ALLAH uses these words for any station other than Prophethood & Messengership.

The point is if Messenger or Prophet is made a king, his kingship becomes divine in nature due to his Prophethood. It doesn't make the status of "Kingship" to be divine itself.

Similarly if Allah is referring to the leadership of Prophets, it doesn't make the status of "leadership" to be divine unless linked with Prophethood. Hope this helps now?

Quote

They were prophet but they were chosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in addition to their status of prophets like hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

Next time please don't use the word "CHOSEN (یَجۡتَبِیۡ)" against the arabic word of "Ja-alna" in Qur'an.

Why did you ignore my following point:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?
  • Why the criteria of salvation to believe in separate status of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood not mentioned in Qur'an?
Quote

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly. And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way. (17:71-72)

Irrelevant. As according to most of the Sunni & Shia Tafaaseer, Imam here refers to the Book of Deeds. Look at the bold words for the context of verse.

Quote

The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

Those 12 leaders never possessed any infallible divine authority. They were indeed raised as the head of their tribes each of them being their family head but at the end ALLAH was not collectively pleased with those tribes. The Israelites were not required to believe on those cheiftains as fundamental artice of faith like that of supposed dogma of Shia Imamah.

Read the next verse:

5:13. So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allâh loves Al­Muhsinûn.

Even in Bible they have been accused of henious sins, please read the following article for reference:

https://overviewbible.com/12-tribes-israel/

The question is:

Why the minor issue of fallible authories been explicitly present in old testament (even with their names) and in Qur'an which is not even Article of Faith for Israelites in contrast to Shia dogma of Imamah? (no clue of which could be mention in Qur'an as separate station to be believed for salvation, or mention of appointment of anyone after the final Prophet(saw))?

Quote

 

his leadership can also refer to people who are not prophets as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in the Quran,

"...We delegated from among them twelve leaders..."

Those 12 leaders were not Prophets. With a single verse I can refute your whole claim.

 

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership. The concept of Prophetic & Scriptual Leadership as ordained by ALLAH among the decendants of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) (29:27) was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

 I have no issues with the continuity of Non-Divine leadership of pious as indicated in 25:74. And I have no issues considering the first 11 of 12er Shia Imams to be among them.

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

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Guest Psychological Warfare
On 9/21/2020 at 3:28 PM, Debate follower said:

AND THERE IS NONE AMONG YOU WHO HAS THE QUALITIES OF ABU BAKR. Remember that

Debate was fine. If you guys are going to start marketing your stuff, things will have to change. 

You can't prove it. nor any with a any amount of intellect will buy this. 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

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5 hours ago, investigating said:

Allah divinely choosing Messengers are connoted with the word of اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ throughout the Qur'an. 

٣_٣٣    ۞ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ٱصْطَفَىٰٓ ءَادَمَ وَنُوحًۭا وَءَالَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَءَالَ عِمْرَٰنَ عَلَى ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ
003:033 Indeed,    Allah    chose    Adam    and Nuh,    and (the) family    (of) Ibrahim    and (the) family    (of) Imran    over    the worlds.

How do you consider that the prophet Muhamamd s,a,w and his Ahl albayt are not included in Ale Ibrahim a,s,?

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5 hours ago, investigating said:

AAlso for direct sending, raising or appointment of someone (by Allah) is termed as وبعث in Qur'an. These appointments are mostly for infallible messengers and prophets and in a couple of cases it is also used for fallible king (Talut) and fallible 12 chieftains for Israelites. Interestigly, no where in the Qur'an ALLAH has used this verse for the appointment of 12 individuals among the progeny of Propet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or for the supposed separate station of Imamah in contrast to Nabuwwah not even in a sense of general Prophetic Leadership as well.

How do you get that the Talut and the 12 chieftan / leaders appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were fallible leaders? Any verse of quran for confirmation?

You have agreed that these 12 leaders and Talut were appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). How do you then justify that why the caliphs after the prophets  were chosen by the people? 

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  • Veteran Member
5 hours ago, investigating said:

As far as the word Ja-alna is concerned, it is also used for ALLAH making "Leaders of Kufr". Obviously, it doesn't make them divinely appointment.

The prophet Ibrahim as. was made ./appointed /selected to the staus of Imam. The prophet sa.w has been instructed to his creed as prophet and Imam. Certainly they are guided imams like Yaqub and, Ishaq (عليه السلام) (21:72 , 73) and they should be followed.

The other type of imams is mentioned as imams leading to hell fire. certainly they are not to be followed and obeyed. These include Firon, Qarun an haman and their army. They were declared as leaders leading to hell fire and they were drowned in the sea, it is quite a common mindset that the guided imams should be followed and the bad type of imams leading to hell fire should not be followed. They are not guided imams.

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7 hours ago, investigating said:

Why did you ignore my following point:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?
  • Why the criteria of salvation to believe in separate status of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood not mentioned in Qur'an?

Where it is mentioned in quran that prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) prostrated infront of his son Yusuf (عليه السلام)? Were they not brothers of Yusuf a,s who prostrated infront of him (عليه السلام).?

The principle of following the guided imams made /selected /appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is well defined in the verses of Quran in the verses like 2:124, 21:72-73, 17:71-72. unless one does not deny these.

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7 hours ago, investigating said:

Those 12 leaders never possessed any infallible divine authority. They were indeed raised as the head of their tribes each of them being their family head but at the end ALLAH was not collectively pleased with those tribes.

1. Already replied in earlier post for 12 leaders and Talut made . selected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not by the people.

7 hours ago, investigating said:

Even in Bible they have been accused of henious sins, please read the following article for reference:

https://overviewbible.com/12-tribes-israel/

The question is:

Why the minor issue of fallible authories been explicitly present in old testament (even with their names) and in Qur'an which is not even Article of Faith for Israelites in contrast to Shia dogma of Imamah? (no clue of which could be mention in Qur'an as separate station to be believed for salvation, or mention of appointment of anyone after the final Prophet(saw))?

2. Are you making a dialogue with christician and presenting the text of bible? Are you serious in dialogue with the folloowers of the prophet Muhamamd saw and their Ahl alabaayt (عليه السلام)?

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8 hours ago, investigating said:

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership. The concept of Prophetic & Scriptual Leadership as ordained by ALLAH among the decendants of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) (29:27) was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

The prophet Muhamamd saw is considered as Imam and Last of the messengers by sunnis also . He has been instructed to follow the religion of Ibrahim a,s.  My view about the issue has already been mentioned in earlier posts, link is given below:

The question asked by myself remains unanswered that where is the verse mentioning the prophet saw as Last of Imam? It is well proven that no such verse exists in quran thus it is confirmed that the prophet is not the last Imam and ether are 12 imams/ caliphs/. ameers after him, Both sunni and shia hadith provide the evidence. First of Imam is Ali a,s and 12th is Imam Mahdi as. The pricniple of appointed / selected prophets/ leaders/ caliphs/ sucessors/ imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not by the people is well defined in the verses of quran.

8 hours ago, investigating said:

 I have no issues with the continuity of Non-Divine leadership of pious as indicated in 25:74. And I have no issues considering the first 11 of 12er Shia Imams to be among them.

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

The claim about Imam by making prayer or made /selected by the people has no verse in the quran and there is no example that by making a prayer or selection of a prophet / caliph/ leader/ imam can be made by the people for guidance of the nation.

... وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا ﴿٧٤﴾

Hadith provides us the evidence that Imam Ali as. is mentioned as Imam ul Muttaqeen.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067265-twelve-in-quran/?do=findComment&comment=3303854

How do you consider that these  12 leaders were fallible? Any verse from quran mentioning it?

It is mentioned in verses that these leaders were made / selected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

wasalam 

 

 

Edited by Muslim2010
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10 hours ago, investigating said:

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership.

Again, The Verse says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delegated the 12 leaders, you don't need Prophetic Leadership to have Divine Leadership.

10 hours ago, investigating said:

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

What brought Infallibility up? We are talking about the Divine Appointment and Leadership. You want proof that Ahlulbayt are infallible? Read the Verse of Purification, if you want to Debate on who Ahlulbayt are, I will gladly do so.

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