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In the Name of God بسم الله

[DEBATE: Now open for comments] Succession to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

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  • Veteran Member
12 hours ago, investigating said:

By the way how did you include Noah (عليه السلام) who was prior to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be the follower of the creed of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)?

Is Alisbat a name of one of the leaders among 12? Are you serious bro? I am not used to adopt insulting approach while discussing with our fellow Shia brothers. But don’t you think you are embarrassing yourself?

These are the TRIBES after Yaqub (عليه السلام). How can you consider the TRIBES after yaqub (عليه السلام) to be on the single name of leader to prove your point of 12?

The verses of Quran mentions about our Prophet that he has been instructed to follow the religion of Ibrahim a,s with principles of prophet hood and an Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Please do not misquote the facts.

There are hadith in sunni that quotes about the count of caliphs/ ameers/ imams after the prophet is twelve. The hadith in sunni and shia also mention their  names with Imam Ali is the first and Imam Al Mahdi (عليه السلام) is last and 12th.

 The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

وَقَطَّعْنَاهُمُ اثْنَتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أَسْبَاطًا أُمَمًا ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ إِذِ اسْتَسْقَاهُ قَوْمُهُ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ ۖ فَانبَجَسَتْ مِنْهُ اثْنَتَا عَشْرَةَ عَيْنًا ۖ قَدْ عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُنَاسٍ مَّشْرَبَهُمْ ۚ وَظَلَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْغَمَامَ وَأَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَنَّ وَالسَّلْوَىٰ ۖ كُلُوا مِن طَيِّبَاتِ مَا رَزَقْنَاكُمْ ۚ وَمَا ظَلَمُونَا وَلَٰكِن كَانُوا أَنفُسَهُمْ يَظْلِمُونَ

And We divided them into twelve descendant tribes [as distinct] nations. And We inspired to Moses when his people implored him for water, "Strike with your staff the stone," and there gushed forth from it twelve springs.(7:160)

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. (5:12)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

My point is quite clearly proven in the light of above verses for Alasbat inclusion in the twelve leaders or names.

Edited by Muslim2010
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  • Veteran Member
12 hours ago, investigating said:

By the way how did you include Noah (عليه السلام) who was prior to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be the follower of the creed of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)?

I add the following verse that the religion of Nuh and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is the same.

سَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ نُوحٍ فِي الْعَالَمِينَإِنَّا كَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِي الْمُحْسِنِينَ إِنَّهُ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ثُمَّ أَغْرَقْنَا الْآخَرِينَ وَإِنَّ مِن شِيعَتِهِ لَإِبْرَاهِيمَ 

Peace and salutation to Nuh among the nations.Thus do We surely reward the doers of good.Surely he was of Our believing servants.Then We drowned the others.  And most surely Ibrahim followed his way. (37:80 - 83)

Thus confirming that there is no difference in religion and creed of Nuh (عليه السلام). and Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

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First Caliph appoints

Second caliph creates a shura

Holy  prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s leaves no successor leaving in the hand of Muslims to dispute. 

Why second Caliph didn't give the pen and paper to holy prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s? Afraid that he would write about his succession. 

And Ghadeer where lakhs of Muslim were halted in scorching heat  and holy prophet gave an entire sermon in the farewell pilgrimage just to say maula Ali (عليه السلام) is my friend 

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14 hours ago, investigating said:

This ambigous verse thatapplies all belivers in general (not specifically to Ali(as)) serves no proof against the explicit proof for Divine Stations of Nabuwwah & Risaalah as the necessary belief for criteria of salvation.

I already proved that this verse came down because of Ali (عليه السلام) and even though it says believers it means one person. When I refer to something in one of my posts, go back and actually read it.

14 hours ago, investigating said:

The Fulflillment of the Ibrahim (عليه السلام) Supplication

The answer lies in the verse of Qur'an {Surat Al-`Ankabut (29:27)} in which Allah fulfilled Ibrahim (عليه السلام) supplication:

And We ordained among his offspring prophethood and the Book (scripture) (29:27)

Allah says in another verse:

We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD AND THE SCRIPTURE. [57:26]

Hence THIS concept of LEADERSHIP is exclusively for those who were given PROPHETHOOD & BOOK among the offspring of Hazrat Ibrahim AS & so likewise this SPECIFIC concept of Prophetic Leadership was also sealed just after our beloved Prophet saww departed!

In other verses of Quran like 21:73 you see that all of those who were from the generation of Ibrahim are referred to as Imams are prophets. (SEE THE VERSES BEFORE 2:173 FOR THE MENTION OF PROPHETS AMONG PROGENY OF IBRAHIM(عليه السلام)

And We made them IMAMS, guiding (mankind) by Our Command ……. (21:73)

This leadership can also refer to people who are not prophets as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in the Quran,

"...We delegated from among them twelve leaders..."

Those 12 leaders were not Prophets. With a single verse I can refute your whole claim.

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@Muslim2010

You are just ignoring the truth as described by the verse 2:124 where Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been raised to the status of Imam of mankind and he was already a prophet (عليه السلام).. Its not my mistake.

 

All of your focus is to falsely mix the word of "Choose" and "Raise" against the Arabic word of "Ja-a'lna" which over here (2:124) is a literal connotation for "General Leadership / Inspiration" for Mankind. 

Allah divinely choosing Messengers are connoted with the word of اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ throughout the Qur'an. 

Why haven't these words used for divine station of Imamah or Imams or any other non-divine station in Qur'an? This is yet another proof against considering this station as a separate divine station in addition to Prophethood & Messengership.

Also for direct sending, raising or appointment of someone (by Allah) is termed as وبعث in Qur'an. These appointments are mostly for infallible messengers and prophets and in a couple of cases it is also used for fallible king (Talut) and fallible 12 chieftains for Israelites. Interestigly, no where in the Qur'an ALLAH has used this verse for the appointment of 12 individuals among the progeny of Propet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or for the supposed separate station of Imamah in contrast to Nabuwwah not even in a sense of general Prophetic Leadership as well.

As far as the word Ja-alna is concerned, it is also used for ALLAH making "Leaders of Kufr". Obviously, it doesn't make them divinely appointment.

So referring to your question:

Quote

Do you deny that Ibrahim, Ishaque and Yaqub  (عليه السلام) were chosen as Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

As per Qur'an only Prophets & Messengers are chosen by Allah with connotation of word "اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ". No where in Qur'an ALLAH uses these words for any station other than Prophethood & Messengership.

The point is if Messenger or Prophet is made a king, his kingship becomes divine in nature due to his Prophethood. It doesn't make the status of "Kingship" to be divine itself.

Similarly if Allah is referring to the leadership of Prophets, it doesn't make the status of "leadership" to be divine unless linked with Prophethood. Hope this helps now?

Quote

They were prophet but they were chosen as Imam by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in addition to their status of prophets like hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

Next time please don't use the word "CHOSEN (یَجۡتَبِیۡ)" against the arabic word of "Ja-alna" in Qur'an.

Why did you ignore my following point:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?
  • Why the criteria of salvation to believe in separate status of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood not mentioned in Qur'an?
Quote

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly. And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way. (17:71-72)

Irrelevant. As according to most of the Sunni & Shia Tafaaseer, Imam here refers to the Book of Deeds. Look at the bold words for the context of verse.

Quote

The tribes (Asbat) are from the twelve sons of Jacob. There were twelve leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their children known as bani Israel.

Those 12 leaders never possessed any infallible divine authority. They were indeed raised as the head of their tribes each of them being their family head but at the end ALLAH was not collectively pleased with those tribes. The Israelites were not required to believe on those cheiftains as fundamental artice of faith like that of supposed dogma of Shia Imamah.

Read the next verse:

5:13. So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allâh loves Al­Muhsinûn.

Even in Bible they have been accused of henious sins, please read the following article for reference:

https://overviewbible.com/12-tribes-israel/

The question is:

Why the minor issue of fallible authories been explicitly present in old testament (even with their names) and in Qur'an which is not even Article of Faith for Israelites in contrast to Shia dogma of Imamah? (no clue of which could be mention in Qur'an as separate station to be believed for salvation, or mention of appointment of anyone after the final Prophet(saw))?

Quote

 

his leadership can also refer to people who are not prophets as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in the Quran,

"...We delegated from among them twelve leaders..."

Those 12 leaders were not Prophets. With a single verse I can refute your whole claim.

 

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership. The concept of Prophetic & Scriptual Leadership as ordained by ALLAH among the decendants of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) (29:27) was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

 I have no issues with the continuity of Non-Divine leadership of pious as indicated in 25:74. And I have no issues considering the first 11 of 12er Shia Imams to be among them.

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

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Guest Psychological Warfare
On 9/21/2020 at 3:28 PM, Debate follower said:

AND THERE IS NONE AMONG YOU WHO HAS THE QUALITIES OF ABU BAKR. Remember that

Debate was fine. If you guys are going to start marketing your stuff, things will have to change. 

You can't prove it. nor any with a any amount of intellect will buy this. 

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

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5 hours ago, investigating said:

Allah divinely choosing Messengers are connoted with the word of اللّٰہَ یَجۡتَبِیۡ or اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ throughout the Qur'an. 

٣_٣٣    ۞ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ٱصْطَفَىٰٓ ءَادَمَ وَنُوحًۭا وَءَالَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَءَالَ عِمْرَٰنَ عَلَى ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ
003:033 Indeed,    Allah    chose    Adam    and Nuh,    and (the) family    (of) Ibrahim    and (the) family    (of) Imran    over    the worlds.

How do you consider that the prophet Muhamamd s,a,w and his Ahl albayt are not included in Ale Ibrahim a,s,?

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5 hours ago, investigating said:

AAlso for direct sending, raising or appointment of someone (by Allah) is termed as وبعث in Qur'an. These appointments are mostly for infallible messengers and prophets and in a couple of cases it is also used for fallible king (Talut) and fallible 12 chieftains for Israelites. Interestigly, no where in the Qur'an ALLAH has used this verse for the appointment of 12 individuals among the progeny of Propet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or for the supposed separate station of Imamah in contrast to Nabuwwah not even in a sense of general Prophetic Leadership as well.

How do you get that the Talut and the 12 chieftan / leaders appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were fallible leaders? Any verse of quran for confirmation?

You have agreed that these 12 leaders and Talut were appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). How do you then justify that why the caliphs after the prophets  were chosen by the people? 

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  • Veteran Member
5 hours ago, investigating said:

As far as the word Ja-alna is concerned, it is also used for ALLAH making "Leaders of Kufr". Obviously, it doesn't make them divinely appointment.

The prophet Ibrahim as. was made ./appointed /selected to the staus of Imam. The prophet sa.w has been instructed to his creed as prophet and Imam. Certainly they are guided imams like Yaqub and, Ishaq (عليه السلام) (21:72 , 73) and they should be followed.

The other type of imams is mentioned as imams leading to hell fire. certainly they are not to be followed and obeyed. These include Firon, Qarun an haman and their army. They were declared as leaders leading to hell fire and they were drowned in the sea, it is quite a common mindset that the guided imams should be followed and the bad type of imams leading to hell fire should not be followed. They are not guided imams.

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7 hours ago, investigating said:

Why did you ignore my following point:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?
  • Why the criteria of salvation to believe in separate status of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood not mentioned in Qur'an?

Where it is mentioned in quran that prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) prostrated infront of his son Yusuf (عليه السلام)? Were they not brothers of Yusuf a,s who prostrated infront of him (عليه السلام).?

The principle of following the guided imams made /selected /appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is well defined in the verses of Quran in the verses like 2:124, 21:72-73, 17:71-72. unless one does not deny these.

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7 hours ago, investigating said:

Those 12 leaders never possessed any infallible divine authority. They were indeed raised as the head of their tribes each of them being their family head but at the end ALLAH was not collectively pleased with those tribes.

1. Already replied in earlier post for 12 leaders and Talut made . selected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not by the people.

7 hours ago, investigating said:

Even in Bible they have been accused of henious sins, please read the following article for reference:

https://overviewbible.com/12-tribes-israel/

The question is:

Why the minor issue of fallible authories been explicitly present in old testament (even with their names) and in Qur'an which is not even Article of Faith for Israelites in contrast to Shia dogma of Imamah? (no clue of which could be mention in Qur'an as separate station to be believed for salvation, or mention of appointment of anyone after the final Prophet(saw))?

2. Are you making a dialogue with christician and presenting the text of bible? Are you serious in dialogue with the folloowers of the prophet Muhamamd saw and their Ahl alabaayt (عليه السلام)?

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8 hours ago, investigating said:

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership. The concept of Prophetic & Scriptual Leadership as ordained by ALLAH among the decendants of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) (29:27) was sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

The prophet Muhamamd saw is considered as Imam and Last of the messengers by sunnis also . He has been instructed to follow the religion of Ibrahim a,s.  My view about the issue has already been mentioned in earlier posts, link is given below:

The question asked by myself remains unanswered that where is the verse mentioning the prophet saw as Last of Imam? It is well proven that no such verse exists in quran thus it is confirmed that the prophet is not the last Imam and ether are 12 imams/ caliphs/. ameers after him, Both sunni and shia hadith provide the evidence. First of Imam is Ali a,s and 12th is Imam Mahdi as. The pricniple of appointed / selected prophets/ leaders/ caliphs/ sucessors/ imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not by the people is well defined in the verses of quran.

8 hours ago, investigating said:

 I have no issues with the continuity of Non-Divine leadership of pious as indicated in 25:74. And I have no issues considering the first 11 of 12er Shia Imams to be among them.

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

The claim about Imam by making prayer or made /selected by the people has no verse in the quran and there is no example that by making a prayer or selection of a prophet / caliph/ leader/ imam can be made by the people for guidance of the nation.

... وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَامًا ﴿٧٤﴾

Hadith provides us the evidence that Imam Ali as. is mentioned as Imam ul Muttaqeen.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067265-twelve-in-quran/?do=findComment&comment=3303854

How do you consider that these  12 leaders were fallible? Any verse from quran mentioning it?

It is mentioned in verses that these leaders were made / selected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

wasalam 

 

 

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10 hours ago, investigating said:

You misunderstood! All I claimed was the fact that "Leadership" itself can not be divine in nature unless it is a Prophetic Leadership.

Again, The Verse says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delegated the 12 leaders, you don't need Prophetic Leadership to have Divine Leadership.

10 hours ago, investigating said:

As far as those 12 leaders are concerned, they never possessed any divine infallible station. Please read my reply above.

What brought Infallibility up? We are talking about the Divine Appointment and Leadership. You want proof that Ahlulbayt are infallible? Read the Verse of Purification, if you want to Debate on who Ahlulbayt are, I will gladly do so.

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@Muslim2010: I am sorry you just seem adamant to just increase number and length of posts to the thread just by being repetitive without being comprehensible to the least.  To discover complete answer of my standpoint you may read my reply to brother @Ansur Shiat Ali.

Quote

How do you consider that the prophet Muhamamd s,a,w and his Ahl albayt are not included in Ale Ibrahim a,s,?

This doesn’t prove that they hold an additional non-existing station of Imamah greater than Prophethood when ALLAH himself testifies in Qur’an that among his (as)’s offspring we granted Prophethood & Scripture (that had been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ).

Quote

Where it is mentioned in quran that prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) prostrated infront of his son Yusuf (عليه السلام)? Were they not brothers of Yusuf a,s who prostrated infront of him (عليه السلام).?

Please read this: https://www.al-islam.org/quran-and-mourning-hussain-jafar-ali-asil/prostration

The thing is why Yaqub (عليه السلام) being an Imam didn’t get to the throne instead of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) considering Shia concept of Imamah into consideration?

 

Quote

Again, The Verse says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delegated the 12 leaders, you don't need Prophetic Leadership to have Divine Leadership.

You need to correlate the verse proving the religious title of Non-Prophetic “Imam” and not “Naqeeb (Group Head)” to make YOUR derivation of Imamah from 2:124.

You are actually mixing two things:

1. Minor divine appointment of Individuals to undertake specific tasks under the supervision of Prophets.

  • This appointment doesn’t replace the Prophethood but it is always under the supervision of Prophet to undertake specific tasks like appointing an Ameer to command an expedition in war etc.
  • This appointment never becomes part of article of faith for Religion.

2. Divine appointment of Imams replacing Prophets carrying highest level of Religious Station called “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.

To prove the latter one we need following explicit evidence from Qur’an:

  • Verses of Qur’an talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.
  • Criteria of salvation to believe in religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.
  • Announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

At least the evidence of first two points are required to prove the religious title and station of "Imam" and "Imamah" respectively in contrast to Prophethood if we take the Shia's doctrine of Imamah into the consideration.

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5 hours ago, investigating said:

This doesn’t prove that they hold an additional non-existing station of Imamah greater than Prophethood when ALLAH himself testifies in Qur’an that among his (as)’s offspring we granted Prophethood & Scripture (that had been sealed after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ).

The evidence for the third term  in the following verses in addition to the  book and wisdom to the ale Ibrahim (عليه السلام):

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَى مَا آتَاهُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَآ آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا

4:54 Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

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As per your claim:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?.

But your this claim is proven as false  in the light of the link quoted by yourself::

5 hours ago, investigating said:

As there is no hadith mentioned at the link to justify your false claim certainly i do not oblige to accept it. 

Edited by Muslim2010
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@investigating

:bismillah:

I am sure a few people have waited for this, 

I will now prove that there are 12 Imams/Caliphs.

I am sure that everyone has seen the Hadith,

Narrated Jabir ibn Samurah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs over you, and the whole community will agree on each of them. I then heard from the Prophet (ﷺ) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh.

(Albani says its Sahih except the part with "the whole community will agree on each of them)

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/38/1

Now before I move on, we all now that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) doesn't just say this out of nowhere. (Al Najm verse 3 and 4)

Now moving forward. This Hadith in Sunan Abi Dawud is in a book called Kitab al Mahdi, This indicates that the Mahdi is one of these 12 Caliphs.

Now is the Mahdi from the descendants of Fatima (عليه السلام)? Yes

Narrated Umm Salamah (عليه السلام), Ummul Mu'minin:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah. Abdullah ibn Ja'far said: I heard AbulMalih praising Ali ibn Nufayl and describing his good qualities.

(Albani says Sahih)

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/38/6

So are the fathers (Ahlulbayt) of Imam al Mahdi (atf) supposed to be followed? (By order of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his Prophet (saw))

Yes, and I am not the one who says. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), under the ORDER of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), says so.

03_66019_0000.jp2&id=waq66017&scale=4&rotate=03-LI.jpg

"...The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, 'I have left behind for you, you will not go astray if you FOLLOW them, the Book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and my Ahlulbayt...(Hadith al Ghadir)" 

(Sahih under the standards of Bukhari and Muslim)

So the 12 Caliphs start with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and end with Imam al Mahdi (عليه السلام). And we are also supposed to follow them under the DIRECT ORDER of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),

قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ

"Say, [O Muhammad], 'I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] the Mawada of the kinship.' "

Quran 42:23

What is Mawada? Mawada is to LOVE and FOLLOW. Who are the Kurba/Kinship?

Fatima (عليه السلام) and her Family. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in the Quran,

وَآتِ ذَا الْقُرْبَىٰ حَقَّهُ

"And give the kinship their right..."

Quran 17:26

What happened when this Verse was revealed?

05_171597_0000.jp2&id=FP171593&scale=4&rotate=0

2-LI1-LI

So the Kurba are Ahlulbayt. (Off topic but the 2nd hadith says the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave Fatima (عليه السلام) Fadak. It wasn't inheritance, it was Fatima's)

So the 12 Imams are Ahlulbayt and we are supposed to follow them.

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On 9/28/2020 at 11:13 PM, Muslim2010 said:

As per your claim:

  • Why being Yaqub (عليه السلام) being a Imam and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prostated to Yousuf (عليه السلام) and Yousuf (عليه السلام) didn't leave his temporal positing of Kingship for the Imam Yaqub (عليه السلام) if we consider Shia Dogma of Imamah in consideration?.

But your this claim is proven as false  in the light of the link quoted by yourself::

Quote

As there is no hadith mentioned at the link to justify your false claim certainly i do not oblige to accept it. 

If you read the content of the link we see the author is justifying Yaqub (عليه السلام) prostrating Yusuf (عليه السلام) based on the commentary of Qur'an by Aqa Puya Ali from the verse of Qur'an itself. (Read the notes)

On 9/28/2020 at 11:03 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The evidence for the third term  in the following verses in addition to the  book and wisdom to the ale Ibrahim (عليه السلام):

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَى مَا آتَاهُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَآ آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا

4:54 Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

How do you think Aa-taina (a'taa or inaayat in urdu) refer to divie appointment like t? Again it doesn't prove that Allah appoints 12 individuals among the progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying separate station of Imamah in addition to Prophethood (as falsely derived from 2:124).

Quote

 

I am sure a few people have waited for this, 

I will now prove that there are 12 Imams/Caliphs.

 

Brother why alamalgamting entirely different traditions based on different contexts each open to different interpretations to prove one of the most article of faith of Islam after Tauheed?

Even if you try to combine all these traditions and create a supposed correlation with them it has not been able to prove that:

1. Allah appointed 12 individuals among the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying the separate station of Imamah (which is in addition to the status of Prophethood).
2. Allah makes it a criteria of salvation for believees to believe in such station in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.

The article of faith of Islam is not established based on derivation but explicit NASS.

I would like to critically examine each tradition with you but before at least make an honest claim quoting my following points:

Quote

 

Divine appointment of Imams replacing Prophets carrying highest level of Religious Station called “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.

To prove the Imamah we need following explicit evidence from Qur’an:

  • Verses of Qur’an talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.
  • -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Criteria of salvation to believe in religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.
  • -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

 

 

At leat Admit: Qur'an alone doesn't prove all above points.

However you made add the following sentence justifying your belief in Imamah:

However even without Qur'an being explicit like it is for Prophethood, we still consider Imamah to be one of the fundamental article of faith of religion.

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8 hours ago, investigating said:

How do you think Aa-taina (a'taa or inaayat in urdu) refer to divie appointment like t? Again it doesn't prove that Allah appoints 12 individuals among the progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying separate station of Imamah in addition to Prophethood (as falsely derived from 2:124).

Shia have hadith that Book refer to Quran, Wisdom as prophet hood and Mulk azeem as Immamah of 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet Muhammad saw.

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On 9/28/2020 at 5:59 AM, investigating said:

2. Divine appointment of Imams replacing Prophets carrying highest level of Religious Station called “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.

To prove the latter one we need following explicit evidence from Qur’an:

  • Verses of Qur’an talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.
  • Criteria of salvation to believe in religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.
  • Announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

At least the evidence of first two points are required to prove the religious title and station of "Imam" and "Imamah" respectively in contrast to Prophethood if we take the Shia's doctrine of Imamah into the consideration.

1.      The following verses mention the status of Imams who were Non-prophets.

وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ

And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs. (28:5)

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ فَلَا تَكُن فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِّن لِّقَائِهِ ۖ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ هُدًى لِّبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel. And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. (32:23-24)

The above verses confirm the status of imams as leaders and they were not prophets. Thus the imams selected / made /appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is clearly validated by the quran.

Similarly the following verse mentions the 12 leaders made / selected as leaders by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and they were not prophets:

 وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا 

[5:12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains

2.  

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِم

[17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam;

وَمَن كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

And whoever is blind in this, he shall (also) be blind in the hereafter; and more erring from the way.

ِ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

[13:7]You are only a Warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

Here is the Sunni version of that hadeeth, for knowing the imam:

16922 - حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أسود بن عامر انا أبو بكر عن عاصم عن أبي صالح عن معاوية قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : من مات بغير إمام مات ميتة جاهلية

 Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))  said: “Whosoever dies without an Imam dies the death of Jahiliyyah.”

 Source: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 4, Pg 96, H 16922

  شعيب الأرنؤوط : حديث صحيح لغيره وهذا إسناد حسن

 Shoaib al-Arnaoot says: Hadith is Saheeh li ghairihi, and this chain is Hasan.

http://vb.almahdyoon.com/showthread.php?t=7371

- زمخشرى در کشاف حدیثى نقل کرده که فخر رازى و قرطبى نیز در تفسیرشان از او اقتباس کرده اند: حدیث مزبور به وضوح مقام آل محمد ص و اهمیت حب آنها را بیان مى دارد، مى گوید: رسول خدا ص فرمود:

من مات على حب آل محمد مات شهیدا.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد (ص) مغفورا له.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد مات تائبا.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد مات مؤمنا مستکمل الایمان.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد بشره ملک الموت بالجنة ثم منکر و نکیر.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد یزف الى الجنة کما تزف العروس الى بیت زوجها.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد فتح له فى قبره بابان الى الجنة.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد جعل اللَّه قبره مزار ملائکة الرحمة.

الا و من مات على حب آل محمد مات على السنة و الجماعة.

الا و من مات على بغض آل محمد جاء یوم القیامه مکتوب بین عینیه آیس من رحمة اللَّه الا و من مات على بغض آل محمد مات کافرا.

الا و من مات على بغض آل محمد لم یشم رائحة الجنة:

3.  

 حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَعَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ أَبِي صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Jihad - كتاب الجهاد

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, And whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys the Imam , obeys me, and whoever disobeys the Imam , disobeys me.”

Grade    : Sahih (Darussalam)                      

English reference              : Vol. 4, Book 24, Hadith 2859

Arabic reference               : Book 24, Hadith 2969

3.  أَخْبَرَنَا يُوسُفُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا حَجَّاجٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، أَنَّ زِيَادَ بْنَ سَعْدٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ ابْنَ شِهَابٍ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّهُ، سَمِعَ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of al-Bay'ah - كتاب البيعة

Abu Hurairah said:

"The Messenger of Allah said: 'Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys my Amir, he has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys my Amir, he has disobeyed me."'

Reference           : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4193

In-book reference            : Book 39, Hadith 45

English translation            : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4198

وَحَدَّثَنِي حَرْمَلَةُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَلَمَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah () said:

Whoso obeys me obeys God; and whose disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys my commander obeys me, and whoso disobeys my commander disobeys me.

Reference           : Sahih Muslim 1835 c

In-book reference            : Book 33, Hadith 47

English reference              : Book 20, Hadith 4519

7. حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْعَبَّاسِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ، ثنا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ الْبُرْنُسِيُّ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، ثنا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَعْلَى، ثنا بَسَّامٌ الصَّيْرَفِيُّ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو الْفُقَيْمِيِّ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ ثَعْلَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي

طَالِبٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ: «

مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ أَطَاعَكَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي، وَمَنْ عَصَاكَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي».

It is narrated by AbuZar RA that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام):

He who obeys me has obeyed God, whoever disobeys me has disobeyed God, and whoever obeys you has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys you has disobeyed me.

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الإِسْنَادِ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ.

الحاكم النيسابوري، ابو عبدالله محمد بن عبدالله (متوفاى 405 هـ)، المستدرك علي الصحيحين، ج3، ص139، ح4641، تحقيق: مصطفي عبد القادر عطا، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت الطبعة: الأولى، 1411هـ - 1990م.

8. (4556)- [3 : 118] أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو أَحْمَدَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الشَّيْبَانِيُّ مِنْ أَصْلِ كِتَابِهِ، ثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ الرَّازِيُّ بِمِصْرَ، ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ حَمَّادٍ الْحَضْرَمِيُّ، ثنا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَعْلَى، ثنا بَسَّامٌ الصَّيْرَفِيُّ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو الْفُقَيْمِيِّ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ ثَعْلَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ:

«مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ عَلِيًّا فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي، وَمَنْ عَصَى عَلِيًّا فَقَدْ عَصَانِي».

It is narrated by AbuZar RA that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Whoever obeys me has obeyed God, and whoever disobeys me has disobeyed God, and whoever obeys Ali  has obeyed me, and he who disobeys Ali has disobeyed me.”

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الإِسْنَادِ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ.

المستدرك على الصحيحين ج3، ص131، ح4617

http://harimevelayt.blogfa.com/post/259

The above hadith confirm Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Imam and Ameer and he should be obeyed after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو كُرَيْبٍ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ الطَّنَافِسِيُّ، عَنْ سِمَاكِ بْنِ حَرْبٍ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ يَكُونُ مِنْ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ بِشَيْءٍ لَمْ أَفْهَمْهُ فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي فَقَالَ قَالَ ‏"‏ كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏

Simak bin Harb narrated from Jabir bin Samurah who said " The Messenger of Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

'There will be twelve Amir after me."' He said: "Then he said something that I did not understand. So I asked the one who was next to me, who said that he(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had said: 'All of them are from Quraish."'

Grade    : Sahih (Darussalam)                      

Reference           : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2223

In-book reference            : Book 33, Hadith 66

English translation            : Vol. 4, Book 7, Hadith 2223

In the light of above hadith Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the Ameer after the prophet .(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and he should be obeyed. Similarly the hadith mentions 12 Ameers and certainly they are to be obeyed after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is confirmation of 12 Ameers / imams after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Now we look with some verses of quran:

The verses with word of Imam (s) seems attributed in number to 12 Imams in the following manner:

Sr No.

Sura No.

Verse No.

Atributed  in number to

1

2

124

Imam Ali ibne Abi Talib AS

2

9

12

Imam Hassan bin Ali AS

3

11

17

Imam Hussain bin Ali AS

4

15

79

Imam Ali bin Hussain AS

5

17

71

Imam Muhamamd  bin Ali  AS

6

21

73

Imam Jafar bin Muhamamd  AS

7

25

74

Imam Musa bin Jafar AS

8

28

5

Imam Ali bin Musa AS

9

28

41

Imam Muhamamd bin Ali AS

10

32

24

Imam Ali bin Muhamamd  AS

11

36

12

Imam Hassan bin Ali  AS

12

46

12

Imam Muhamamd bin Hassan  AS (Al Mahdi)

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......Continued.

The total count of verses where word Imam (s) has been used is exactly 12.

The verse no. is exactly equal to 12 as mentioned above for 3 surah. The names of 3 Imams are Muhammad on the name of the Prophet Muhaamd saaw.

The above analysis confirms that there are 12 Imams and the verses seem resemblance in number to each of Imam in the above mentioned manner.

 وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا 

[5:12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; (12)

Similarly for the nation of the prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ ۚ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أَحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ

(36:12) 

Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in Imam Mubeen. (12)

 

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ ۚ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا

1.    Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. (4:82)

كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَاهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَارَكٌ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوا آيَاتِهِ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

2.     [This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. (38:29)

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ نَزَّلَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ ۗ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِي الْكِتَابِ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ

3.    That is [deserved by them] because Allah has sent down the Book in truth. And indeed, those who differ over the Book are in extreme dissension.(2:176)

wasalam

 

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14 hours ago, investigating said:

Brother why alamalgamting entirely different traditions based on different contexts each open to different interpretations to prove one of the most article of faith of Islam after Tauheed?

Even if you try to combine all these traditions and create a supposed correlation with them it has not been able to prove that:

1. Allah appointed 12 individuals among the progeny of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying the separate station of Imamah (which is in addition to the status of Prophethood).
2. Allah makes it a criteria of salvation for believees to believe in such station in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.

The article of faith of Islam is not established based on derivation but explicit NASS.

lol, what response is this?

by saying this u did nothing.

now what's funny is that u need to read the whole thing again and understand that the order of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the order of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:38 PM, Abu Hadi said:

I know it 'can' mean any of those things. I am what it 'does' mean in the context we are speaking of. If you refuse to answer my question, then I will no longer post on this thread, as the debate cannot proceed while one side refuses to define terms.

Brother Abu Hadi Salaam – my apologies, due circumstances I could not respond earlier.

I am glad that you recognise that any of those things – if you want it in the context, we are speaking of, then I’ll refer you to Nahjul Balaghah Sermon 92 – Where Hz. Ali (رضي الله عنه) has used the word ‘counsellor’.
“I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief

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@Muslim2010 @All Shia brothers

What our shia brothers have failed to understand is that I am demanding the proof for the separate “Station of Imamah” in contrast to the station of Prophethood. To call it a separate divine station or making it a separate article of faith of Islam we would need the same NATURE OF PROOF as we’ve for Prophethood in Qur’an & even in Ahaadith.

The divine appointment or selection in relation Prophethood or Risaalah are denoted by terminologies like “Wab-a’s”, “Wa-jtaba”, “Arsalna” etc. which has not been found in case of the word “Imamah” in Qur’an neither even in Hadith (as quoted by our shia brothers). This implies that it has a general meaning of “Leader” or “Someone/Something to be followed” rather than being a separate divine station.

 

Quote

 

1.      The following verses mention the status of Imams who were Non-prophets.

وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ

And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs. (28:5)

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ فَلَا تَكُن فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِّن لِّقَائِهِ ۖ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ هُدًى لِّبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ

وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ

And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel. And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications. (32:23-24)

The above verses confirm the status of imams as leaders and they were not prophets. Thus the imams selected / made /appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is clearly validated by the quran.

 

Why repeating the same irrelevant verses over and over again?

Do our Shia brothers believe that the Imams in above quoted verses don’t possess a literal and general connotation of being “Leaders” but rather carrying the divine station of “Imamah” as understood by Shia for their 12 Imams?

Yes? Let’s examine it critically now:

1. The Ayahs clearly states that the Bani Israil as a whole were made “Imaams” on Earth. Thus, the entire tribe is given the position of Imaamah in this verse. Comparing it with other Quranic Ayahs about the Children of Israel, we see that it closely resembles Verses such as this one:

They said: We suffered hurt before thou camest unto us, and since thou hast come unto us. He said: It may be that your Lord is going to destroy your adversary and make you viceroys in the earth, that He may see how ye behave. (Quran 7:129)

We see that the position of vicegerency and dominion does not refer in here to a perfect infallible leadership, but rather a leadership where the people are judged for their actions; hence the statement: “that He (Allah) may see how ye behave”.

Thus, the placement of “Imaamah” in the hands of the Children of Israel in this Verse is similar to the dominion and leadership that Allah may bestow upon any people after rescuing them from their oppressors. It cannot refer to a special form of Imaamah simply because the population as a whole is granted this Imaamah, and they are responsible for the good and bad actions they commit once they are placed under this position.

However, in Shia ideology, the Imaam does not need to show anything in terms of faith, patience, or any other virtuous quality, because he is already infallible and perfected in all these aspects from the very beginning of his life.

 

Quote

 

[5:12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains

2.  

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِم

[17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam;

وَمَن كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

 

 

Already refuted and explained.

You need to correlate the verse proving the religious title of Non-Prophetic “Imam” and not “Naqeeb (Group Head)” to make YOUR supposed derivation of Imamah from 2:124.

You are actually mixing two things:

1. Minor divine appointment of Individuals to undertake specific tasks under the supervision of Prophets.

  • This appointment doesn’t replace the Prophethood but it is always under the supervision of Prophet to undertake specific tasks like appointing an Ameer to command an expedition in war etc.
  • This appointment never becomes part of article of faith for Religion.

As far 17:71 is concerned, Sunni and Shia commentaries do not agree as to whether “Imaam” refers to a human or to a book. Even if taken as a human, no mention of Infallibility is stated (evil Imaams are also included), and the correspondence is between an “Imaam” and a nation, rather than an “Imaam” and a period (as it should be in Shia belief).

Quote

 

Now we look with some verses of quran:

The verses with word of Imam (s) seems attributed in number to 12 Imams in the following manner:

 

Why are you making fun of yourself bro?

Would you please acting childish by assuming that since the word Imam or Aimmah (nothing in relation to Shia Imams) have appeared 12 times in Qur’an showing that ALLAH appointed 12 individuals among the Progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying the separate station of Imamah greater than status of Prophethood?

Is this show fundamental of article of faith of Islam is established in your Madhab?

Quote

 


 حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَعَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ أَبِي صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Jihad - كتاب الجهاد

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, And whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys the Imam , obeys me, and whoever disobeys the Imam , disobeys me.”

Grade    : Sahih (Darussalam)                      

English reference              : Vol. 4, Book 24, Hadith 2859

Arabic reference               : Book 24, Hadith 2969

3.  أَخْبَرَنَا يُوسُفُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا حَجَّاجٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، أَنَّ زِيَادَ بْنَ سَعْدٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ ابْنَ شِهَابٍ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّهُ، سَمِعَ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of al-Bay'ah - كتاب البيعة

Abu Hurairah said:

"The Messenger of Allah said: 'Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys my Amir, he has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys my Amir, he has disobeyed me."'

Reference           : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4193

In-book reference            : Book 39, Hadith 45

English translation            : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4198

وَحَدَّثَنِي حَرْمَلَةُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَلَمَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah () said:

Whoso obeys me obeys God; and whose disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys my commander obeys me, and whoso disobeys my commander disobeys me.

Reference           : Sahih Muslim 1835 c

In-book reference            : Book 33, Hadith 47

English reference              : Book 20, Hadith 4519

 

 

How does it prove that separate station of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood for us Mainstream Muslims?

We agree with obeying our temporal leaders / administrators to maintain the decorum and discipline in society! This obedience doesn’t have anything in contrast to do with direct laws imposed by Allah and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). For us the only intrinsic authorities to be obeyed and referred in matter of differences are Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (4:59)

Let’s see another Hadith which destroys Shia dogma of Imamah for Mainstream Muslims:

Hudhaifah (radhiAllaahu anhu) narrated in a long hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said, There will come Imams(leaders) who will not follow my guidance nor will they follow my Sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of humans.” He (Hudhaifah) asked, “What should I do O Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?” He replied, You should hear and obey the ruler. Even if he flogs your back and takes your wealth you should still hear and obey.”( Sahih Muslim book 20,Hadith 4554)

Quote

 

Here is the Sunni version of that hadeeth, for knowing the imam:

16922 - حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي ثنا أسود بن عامر انا أبو بكر عن عاصم عن أبي صالح عن معاوية قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : من مات بغير إمام مات ميتة جاهلية

 Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))  said: “Whosoever dies without an Imam dies the death of Jahiliyyah.”

 Source: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 4, Pg 96, H 16922

 

 

Thanks for quoting a Sunni version of Hadith. This hadith even alone if taken in isolation doesn’t prove dogma as perceived by Shia people. This doesn’t prove that there are 12 individuals to be believed and followed among the progeny of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) holding the station of Imamah (whose status is greater than Prophethood).

 

Mainstream Muslims’ Interpretation of this Hadith based on the collection of other Authentic reports talking about the same subject matter!

 

Here is couple of narrations which provide the correct understanding of the narration misinterpreted by Shias:

Prophet (peace be upon him) said – as related by `Abd Allah b. `Umar – “Whoever dies without being bound by the oath of allegiance (bay`ah), dies the death of the time of jahiliyya(pre-islamic times).” [Sahîh Muslim (1851)]

The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: ‘Whoever parts from obedience, and splits away from the Jama’ah and dies, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. Whoever rebels against my Ummah, killing good and evil people alike, and does not try to avoid killing the believers, and does not pay attention to those who are under a covenant, then he is not of me. Whoever fights for a cause that is not clear, advocating tribalism, getting angry for the sake of tribalism, and he is killed, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah. [Sunan an-Nasa’i Vol. 5, Book 37, Hadith 4119]

It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas that the messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who found in his Amir something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a hand span and then he died would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya(pre-islamic times).[Sahi Muslim Bk 20, Number 4559]

Thus in the light of these authentic reports which are related to the hadeeth in question, we found that, Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) actually meant “whoever dies without giving allegiance and removing himself from obedience to the Imam will die the death of jahiliiya”. This hadeeth is regarding allegiance(bay’ah) and obedience to the Ruler. When there is a legitimate head of state for the Muslims (Imam), then it is not permissible for a Muslim to refrain from accepting him by not giving an oath of allegiance(bay’ah) to that Head of state, this is what the hadeeth means.

 

Sunni Tradition based on Hassan Chain Proves Ahlebayt (عليه السلام) Rejects Shia Dogma of Imamah!

في (الطبقات الكبرى) لابن سعد: حدثنا محمد بن عاصم حدثنا شبابة بن سوار عن الفضيل بن مرزوق قال: سألت عمر بن علي وحسين بن علي عمي جعفر قلت: هل فيكم أهل البيت إنسان مفترضة طاعته تعرفون له ذلك ومن لم يعرف له ذلك فمات مات ميتة جاهلية؟ فقالا: لا والله ما هذا فينا. من قال هذا فينا فهو كذاب. قال فقلت لعمر بن علي: رحمك الله، إن هذه منزلة تزعمون أنها كانت لعلي إن النبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم) أوصى إليه. ثم كانت للحسن إن عليا أوصى إليه. ثم كانت للحسين إن الحسن أوصى إليه. ثم كانت لعلي بن الحسين إن الحسين أوصى إليه، ثم كانت لمحمد بن علي إن عليا أوصى إليه. فقال: والله لمات أبي فما أوصى بحرفين. قاتلهم الله! والله إن هؤلاء إلا متأكلون بنا، هذا خنيس الخرؤ ما خنيس الخرؤ؟ قال قلت: المعلى بن خنيس، قال: نعم المعلى بن خنيس، والله لفكرت على فراشي طويلا أتعجب من قوم لبس الله عقولهم حين أضلهم المعلى بن خنيس. (الطّبقات الكبرى)

 

(ibn Sa’ad) said in “al-Tabaqat al-Kubra″: Muhammad ibn ‘Asim from Shubabah bin Siwar from al-Fudayl ibn Marzuq; he said: I asked ‘Umar bin ‘Ali and Husayn bin ‘Ali the Uncles of Ja’far; I said, “Is there among you, Ahl al-Bayt, a person whose obedience (ie obedience to him) is obligatory and that whoever doesn’t recognize him dies the death of Jahiliyya(pre-Islamic times)?” Both of them said: “No, by Allah! This is not from us! Whoever says that about us is a liar.” I said to ‘Umar bin ‘Ali: “May Allah have Mercy on you. [It is said] that you claim that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) appointed Ali as his successor, and then Ali appointed al-Hasan to be his successor, then al-Hasan appointed al-Husayn to be his successor, then al-Husyan appointed Ali bin al-Husyan as his successor then Ali appointed Muhammad bin Ali as his successor.“ So he said, “By Allah, my father died without uttering two letters with regards to succession. May Allah destroy them! By Allah, surely these people are nothing but a burden on us. This is (from) Khunays al-Kharu’?, was it Khunays al-Kharu’?” I said, “He is al-Mu’alla ibn Khunays.” He said, “Yes, al-Mu’alla bin Khunays, by Allah, I thought long in my bed wondering about people whom God had given knowledge as they were being lead astray by this al-Mu’alla bin Khunays. [(Tabaqat al-Kubra ibn Saad vol 7, page 318-319, #1812 ; Shaykh abi Nasr Muhammad bin Abdullah al-Imam in his Book, Tu’oun Rafidhah al-Yaman, page 17 said ” sanad Hasan”(chain is good).]

In his “Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

كتب إلي عبد المنعم بن يحيى الزهري، وطائفة قالوا: أنبأنا داود بن أحمد، أنبأنا محمد بن عمر القاضي، أنبأنا عبد الصمد بن علي، أنبأنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني، حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن إسماعيل الادمي، حدثنا محمد بن الحسين الحنيني، حدثنا مخلد بن أبي قريش الطحان، حدثنا عبد الجبار بن العباس الهمداني، أن جعفر بن محمد أتاهم وهم يريدون أن يرتحلوا من المدينة، فقال: ” إنكم إن شاء الله من صالحي أهل مصركم، فأبلغوهم عني: من زعم أني إمام معصوم مفترض الطاعة، فأنا منه برئ، ومن زعم أني أبرأ من أبي بكر وعمر، فأنا منه برئ “.

From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt)  So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.” [Siyar al-A’alaam al-Nubala, vol 6, page 259] ; [Tu’oun Rafidhah al-Yaman, page 19:Isnad Hasan].

 

 

The hidden Imam of Shias doesn’t fit in the criteria of Imam mentioned in Shia Hadeeth.

 قلت: لم أسمع اباك يذكر هذا، يعني إماما حيا، فقال: ” قد والله قال ذلك رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، قال: وقال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): من مات وليس له امام يسمع له ويطيع، مات ميتة جاهلية ».

( بحارالانوار ج23 ص92 و الاختصاص شیخ مفید صص 268-269 و

Abi al-Hassan (عليه السلام) said: One who dies without a living and known Imam, dies the death of ignorance. The narrator said: I never heard this from your father, I mean the living Imam? He replied: By Allah the Messenger of Allah said this, and said: One who dies without an Imam, who can be heard and obeyed, dies the death of ignorance.
– Mufid in al-ekhtisas p268-289
– Bihar al-Anwar v23 p92.

Comment: Can the hidden Imam of Shias be heard and obeyed? Surely not!  

ال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية»
(بحارالانوار مجلسی ج23 ص 93 _ بیروت و مفید در الاختصاص ص269 _ بیروت)
Abu Abdilllah (عليه السلام) said: One who dies without the
living and Zahir (visible . i.e which can be seen) Imam, dies the death of ignorance.
– al-Mufid in Al-ekhtisas p269 Beirut
– Bihar al-Anwar v23 p93 Beirut.

«عن أبي الجارود قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام يقول: من مات وليس عليه إمام حي ظاهر مات ميتة جاهلية، قال: قلت: إمام حي جعلت فداك ؟ قال: إمام حي، إمام حي»
(بحارالانوار ج23 ص93 و مفید در الاختصاص ص269 و مستدرک وسائل و..)
Abu Abdillah (عليه السلام) said: One who dies without having a
living and Zahir (visible, i.e which can be seen) Imam dies the death of ignorance. The narrator asked: May I be sacrificed for you, the living Imam? He replied: the living Imam, the living Imam.
– al-Mufid in al-ekhtisas p269

– Bihar al-Anwar v23 p93
– Mustadrak Wasail

Comment: Is the hidden Imam of Shias, visible(Zahir)? Not at all!

From these Shia ahadeeth we came to know that, the Imam is the one who can be Heard, who is visible(Zahir), and who is living. But unfortunately the current hidden Imam of Shias, can neither be heard nor seen, and there is no factual proof which proves that he is living due to which we cannot know him. Thus the non-existing twelfth Imam of Shias in no way considered as the Imam without whom one would die death of jahiliyyah.

 

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْعَبَّاسِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ، ثنا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ الْبُرْنُسِيُّ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، ثنا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَعْلَى، ثنا بَسَّامٌ الصَّيْرَفِيُّ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو الْفُقَيْمِيِّ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ ثَعْلَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي

طَالِبٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ: «

مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ أَطَاعَكَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي، وَمَنْ عَصَاكَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي».

It is narrated by AbuZar RA that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام):

He who obeys me has obeyed God, whoever disobeys me has disobeyed God, and whoever obeys you has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys you has disobeyed me.

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الإِسْنَادِ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ.

الحاكم النيسابوري، ابو عبدالله محمد بن عبدالله (متوفاى 405 هـ)، المستدرك علي الصحيحين، ج3، ص139، ح4641، تحقيق: مصطفي عبد القادر عطا، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت الطبعة: الأولى، 1411هـ - 1990م.

8. (4556)- [3 : 118] أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو أَحْمَدَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الشَّيْبَانِيُّ مِنْ أَصْلِ كِتَابِهِ، ثنا عَلِيُّ بْنُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ الرَّازِيُّ بِمِصْرَ، ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ حَمَّادٍ الْحَضْرَمِيُّ، ثنا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَعْلَى، ثنا بَسَّامٌ الصَّيْرَفِيُّ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو الْفُقَيْمِيِّ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ ثَعْلَبَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ:

«مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ، وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ عَلِيًّا فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي، وَمَنْ عَصَى عَلِيًّا فَقَدْ عَصَانِي».

It is narrated by AbuZar RA that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Whoever obeys me has obeyed God, and whoever disobeys me has disobeyed God, and whoever obeys Ali  has obeyed me, and he who disobeys Ali has disobeyed me.”

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الإِسْنَادِ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ.

المستدرك على الصحيحين ج3، ص131، ح4617

http://harimevelayt.blogfa.com/post/259

The above hadith confirm Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Imam and Ameer and he should be obeyed after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

.I have no objection in following the Matn of Hadith however it is deemed unauthentic by Albani 

ولكن الالباني استدرك الحاكم وبين انه ضعيف

 

However, Al-Albani corrected Al-Hakim and stated that it is a "Da'if"[1] Hadith.

قال الالباني - سلسلة الاحاديث الضعيفة (10 - 517):

4892 - (من أطاعني فقد أطاع الله. ومن عصاني فقد عصى الله. ومن أطاع علياً فقد أطاعني. ومن عصى علياً فقد عصاني) .

 

In his "Silsilatul Ahadith Ad-Da'ifah" (10/517), Al-Albani included:

4862 – (Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and Whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Also, whoever obeys Ali, obeys me and whoever disobeys Ali, disobeys me).

ضعيف - أخرجه الحاكم (3/ 121) ، وابن عساكر (12/ 139/ 1) من طرق عن يحيى بن يعلى: حدثنا بسام الصيرفي عن الحسن بن عمرو الفقيمي عن معاوية بن معاوية بن ثعلبة عن أبي ذر مرفوعاً.

 

Is graded as da'if –Al-Hakim (3/121) and ibn Asakir (1/139/12) related it as reported through series of narration; Yahia bin Ali narrated that, Bassam As-Sairafi narrated that Al-Hassan bin Amr Al-Faqimi narrated that, Mu'aweyah bin Mu'aweyah bin Tha'labah narrated that Abi Dhar narrated (that hadith) as Marfu'[2].

وقال الحاكم: "صحيح الإسناد"! ووافقه الذهبي!

Al-Hakim graded its series of narration as "Sahih"! And Adh-Dhahbi concurred with him!

قلت: أنى له الصحة؛ ويحيى بن يعلى - وهو الأسلمي - ضعيف؟! كما جزم به الذهبي في حديث آخر تقدم برقم (892) ، وهو شيعي متفق على تضعيفه كما بينته ثمة. وسائر الرواة ثقات؛ غير معاوية بن ثعلبة؛ لا تعرف عدالته، كما تأتي الإشارة إلى ذلك في الحديث الذي بعده ... الخ

I say: How come?! While Yahia bin Ya'la – Al-Aslami – is Da'if[3] as Ad-Dhahabi previously confirmed in Hadith No. (892)?! He is a [Edited Out]e unanimously deemed a "Da'if" narrator, as I have set forth. From another hand, the rest of the narrators are reliable except Mu'aweyah bin Tha'labah whose virtuousness is unknown as highlighted in the following Hadith ......etc.

 

[1]da'if hadith is a hadith which does not fulfil the conditions of the sahih or hassan hadith upon specific rulings.

[2]Technically marfu' refers to a hadith attributed to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) and a companion narrates it.

[3] A Da'if narrator is one who is deficient in terms of his virtuousness and reliability in narration.

 

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو كُرَيْبٍ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ الطَّنَافِسِيُّ، عَنْ سِمَاكِ بْنِ حَرْبٍ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ يَكُونُ مِنْ بَعْدِي اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ بِشَيْءٍ لَمْ أَفْهَمْهُ فَسَأَلْتُ الَّذِي يَلِينِي فَقَالَ قَالَ ‏"‏ كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ ‏.‏

Simak bin Harb narrated from Jabir bin Samurah who said " The Messenger of Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

'There will be twelve Amir after me."' He said: "Then he said something that I did not understand. So I asked the one who was next to me, who said that he(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had said: 'All of them are from Quraish."'

Grade    : Sahih (Darussalam)                      

Reference           : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2223

In-book reference            : Book 33, Hadith 66

English translation            : Vol. 4, Book 7, Hadith 2223

Again the vague Hadith doesn't prove:

1. Allah appointed them using words like "Wab-as", "Ijtiba", "Arsalna".

2. They are specifically from the progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

3. All of them are temporal rulers and only two of the first Shia Imams got the chance to temporally rule the people.

4. It has nothing to do with the goodness or badness of the leaders but the glory of the spread of Islam in their reign.

How can you make us believe on the fundamental article of Faith that is too vague to even fit your supposed Imams in it?

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On 10/1/2020 at 5:53 AM, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

lol, what response is this?

by saying this u did nothing.

now what's funny is that u need to read the whole thing again and understand that the order of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the order of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

1. Where in your reply Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ordered us to believe and follow 12 individuals in his progeny holding the station of Imamah as hold by Shias?

2. On what basis you assume that the 12th Ameer mentioned in the Hadith is Imam Mahdi? On what basis you correlated both Hadiths?

3. How adhering to Ahlebayt in Thaqlain proves Imamah as a separate station to Prophethood for 12 individuals among the progeny of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

b79rLKy.png

 

Can't you see "Salmah bin Kahl" to be extremely weak to consider this tradition to prove your dogma?

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1 hour ago, investigating said:

1. Where in your reply Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ordered us to believe and follow 12 individuals in his progeny holding the station of Imamah as hold by Shias?

2. On what basis you assume that the 12th Ameer mentioned in the Hadith is Imam Mahdi? On what basis you correlated both Hadiths?

3. How adhering to Ahlebayt in Thaqlain proves Imamah as a separate station to Prophethood for 12 individuals among the progeny of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

b79rLKy.png

 

Can't you see "Salmah bin Kahl" to be extremely weak to consider this tradition to prove your dogma?

That is hujjah upon you and not on us. I care about what Al Hakim al Nasaburi said.

2 hours ago, investigating said:

1. Where in your reply Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ordered us to believe and follow 12 individuals in his progeny holding the station of Imamah as hold by Shias?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said so in the Verse of Mawada, The Kurba, are his Holy family. Again, Mawada is to love and follow.

2 hours ago, investigating said:

2. On what basis you assume that the 12th Ameer mentioned in the Hadith is Imam Mahdi? On what basis you correlated both Hadiths?

The Hadith is put in a book called "Kitab al-MAHDI". Come on dude, read what I wrote, you wouldn't have to ask these questions. 

2 hours ago, investigating said:

3. How adhering to Ahlebayt in Thaqlain proves Imamah as a separate station to Prophethood for 12 individuals among the progeny of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Because we haven't seen it ever except from Prophets who also got their Imamah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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2 hours ago, investigating said:

We agree with obeying our temporal leaders / administrators to maintain the decorum and discipline in society! This obedience doesn’t have anything in contrast to do with direct laws imposed by Allah and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). For us the only intrinsic authorities to be obeyed and referred in matter of differences are Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (4:59)

 

Very Interesting. Care to elaborate further:

1. why obedience to Rasool is unconditional and obedience to Ulil Amri is conditional

2. who're these Ulil Amri, meant by Allah and His Rasool?

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10 hours ago, investigating said:

Comment: Is the hidden Imam of Shias, visible(Zahir)? Not at all!

From these Shia ahadeeth we came to know that, the Imam is the one who can be Heard, who is visible(Zahir), and who is living. But unfortunately the current hidden Imam of Shias, can neither be heard nor seen, and there is no factual proof which proves that he is living due to which we cannot know him. Thus the non-existing twelfth Imam of Shias in no way considered as the Imam without whom one would die death of jahiliyyah.

Salam it's a totally wrong conclusion because living Imam doesn't mean he must be heard or seen by others even at era of 11 Imams before Imam Mahdi (aj) majority of Shias didn't have direct access to them that they were following them even without seeing them or hearing their voice during whole of lifetime that only way for following Imams was hearing news through trustworthy representatives of Imams (Wakils) That  most of times Wakils were just in contact by letters that was sending to them through underground Wikalah network because Imams were under arrest or heavy supervision of tyrant rulers in order cut all ties between Imams & their followers .

Also by your logic that you deny existence of 12th Imam because you can't see him or hear his voice is same as logic of Atheists & disbelievers that they say because we don't see or hear voice of God then God doesn't exists but you as a muslim believe to Allah although you can't see him or hear his voice & you follow prophet Muhammad (pbu) although you can't see him or hear his voice but presence of them proved to you also as a sunni at least you follow one of four Imams of 4 sunni major sects although you didn't see them  or hear their  voice  that same as you the presence of Allah & prophet Muhammad (pbu) & all 12 infallible (Masum) Imams is proven through many ways .

that prophet Muhammad (pbu) said one day among his companions said I wish I could see my brothers then Sahabas said aren't we your brothers in faith that prophet replied no you are my companions but my brothers are the people that they will believe to me in end time through blackness on whiteness without seeing or hearing me  (ie  beliving to his prophethoo & Islam through written text) which existance of Imam Mahdi (aj) in end time  is proven to both sunnis & Shias through written books & texts .

in another tradition from Prophet Muhammad  (pbu) 

Quote

O Ali, the strangest (most important) people of all those whose faith is superior and whose certainty is more complete are those who will come at the end of time, while they have neither seen the Prophet nor the Hujjah and the Imam, at the same time they believe to darkness  In white (that is, the  books that is in their hands).

بحارالانوار، ج 77، ص 56

Bihar al anwar , v 77 , p 56

https://rasekhoon.net/hadith/show/1323190/فضیلت-ایمان-در-آخرالزمان

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, investigating said:

What our shia brothers have failed to understand is that I am demanding the proof for the separate “Station of Imamah” in contrast to the station of Prophethood. To call it a separate divine station or making it a separate article of faith of Islam we would need the same NATURE OF PROOF as we’ve for Prophethood in Qur’an & even in Ahaadith.

The divine appointment or selection in relation Prophethood or Risaalah are denoted by terminologies like “Wab-a’s”, “Wa-jtaba”, “Arsalna” etc. which has not been found in case of the word “Imamah” in Qur’an neither even in Hadith (as quoted by our shia brothers). This implies that it has a general meaning of “Leader” or “Someone/Something to be followed” rather than being a separate divine station.

Verses mention Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making imams not the people. This is how its known that Imam for people is choosen and made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Just like in case of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), he was granted with both Prophet hood and Imamah. You say, it implies general leadership. Who are you? I say it doesn't. You are nothing bro. So backup explanation of verses with hadiths.

12 hours ago, investigating said:

How does it prove that separate station of Imamah in contrast to Prophethood for us Mainstream Muslims?

Because the hadith mentions un conditional obedience to the leader and obeying him is obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which is mentioned in the same way for Messenger. So it is impossible for some random person other than the one who is divinely appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to be misdaq of this hadith.

12 hours ago, investigating said:

We agree with obeying our temporal leaders / administrators to maintain the decorum and discipline in society! This obedience doesn’t have anything in contrast to do with direct laws imposed by Allah and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). For us the only intrinsic authorities to be obeyed and referred in matter of differences are Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (4:59)

As usual. Again 4:59.

First of All, Ahlebait (عليه السلام) used to recite this verse as:

علي بن إبراهيم عن أبيه عن ابن أبي عمير عن عمر بن أذينة عن بريد بن معاوية، قال: تلا أبو جعفر عليه السلام: أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الأمر منكم فإن خفتم تنازعا في الأمر فردوه إلى الله وإلى الرسول وإلى أولي الأمر منكم،

So you can't use this verse to prove anything against us.

Secondly lets get to the verse in Book of Allah:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

The verse very clearly makes ataat of Ulil-Amr obligatory on the people just like upon them is ataat of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and this ataat is un-conditional. There is no room for dis-agreement.

And in the next part of Ayah, where did Allah gave you permission to disagree with ulil-Amr? Allah has already imposed un-conditional obedience of Ulil-Amr upon people. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has told you to refer to Allah and Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in case of dis-agreement right? So why not refer to them to know about the meaning of this verse?

if you refer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), he already imposed un-conditional obedience of Ulil-Amr upon you in Quran 4:59.
if you refer to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he said:


 حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَعَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ أَبِي صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Jihad - كتاب الجهاد

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, And whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys the Imam , obeys me, and whoever disobeys the Imam , disobeys me.”

Grade    : Sahih (Darussalam)                      

English reference              : Vol. 4, Book 24, Hadith 2859

Arabic reference               : Book 24, Hadith 2969

3.  أَخْبَرَنَا يُوسُفُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا حَجَّاجٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، أَنَّ زِيَادَ بْنَ سَعْدٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ ابْنَ شِهَابٍ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّهُ، سَمِعَ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of al-Bay'ah - كتاب البيعة

Abu Hurairah said:

"The Messenger of Allah said: 'Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys my Amir, he has obeyed me, and whoever disobeys my Amir, he has disobeyed me."'

Reference           : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4193

In-book reference            : Book 39, Hadith 45

English translation            : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4198

وَحَدَّثَنِي حَرْمَلَةُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَلَمَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى أَمِيرِي فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

Whoso obeys me obeys God; and whose disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys my commander obeys me, and whoso disobeys my commander disobeys me.

Reference           : Sahih Muslim 1835 c

In-book reference            : Book 33, Hadith 47

English reference              : Book 20, Hadith 4519

So again, you are bound to obey Ulil-Amr just like you Obey Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), And this is what is important, because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) told to refer to him and Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in case of dispute, so this is what we shias do. All of these verse and hadiths prove the ismah of the leader who would be after Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). thus sufficient enough to prove the leader needs to be divinely appointed.

Now refer to Hadith of Two weighty things in Mustadrak where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: Quran and Ahlebait will never seperate from each other. This hadith also testifies to our interpretation of this verse. Becuase how can someone, who never seperates from Quran err or not be a masoom? .We are the only ones who referred to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in case of dispute. 

And other versions of two weighty things where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: If you hold fast to Quran and Ahlebait you will never go astray. 

This implies un conditional obedience to imams after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) because they have been ,mentioned along with Quran as a source of guidance for Muslims (including ashaab). The above hadith i mentioned testifies to authenticity of this hadith as well. And if you follow them you'll never go astray is only valid if its used for Masoom. and don't tell me i need to prove masoom can only be divinely appointed.

In Sahih Bukhari 7198 Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: Allah never sent a prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or gave caliphate to caliph but they had two groups. [i'll summarize: A good group of advisors and A Bad group of advisors]. But Masoom is the one protected by Allah. فَالْمَعْصُومُ مَنْ عَصَمَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَ

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned words Masoom for both Caliph and Prophet.

If he was referring to Prophetic caliphate, then my dear, there was no point in mentioning them seperately.

12 hours ago, investigating said:

Let’s see another Hadith which destroys Shia dogma of Imamah for Mainstream Muslims:

Hudhaifah (radhiAllaahu anhu) narrated in a long hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said, There will come Imams(leaders) who will not follow my guidance nor will they follow my Sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of humans.” He (Hudhaifah) asked, “What should I do O Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?” He replied, You should hear and obey the ruler. Even if he flogs your back and takes your wealth you should still hear and obey.”( Sahih Muslim book 20,Hadith 4554)

This hadith, is clearly against Quran. Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) first declared some leaders coming after him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as misguided and oppsers of Sunnah, with hearts of devils, and told them to obey in them?

It contradicts اهدِنَا الصِّراطَ المُستَقيمَ 

It contradicts  Amr Bil Ma‘Ruf Wa Nahi ‘Anil Munkar

It contradicts O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; (Quran 24:21)

Such a hadith is nothing but a fabrication that contradicts Quran.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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Challenge to all those claiming hidden Imam can't be obeyed.

How do you obey Allah?

How do you obey Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) today?

If they aren't zahir, then it means verse: Ati ullah wa ati ur Rasool is mansukh?

:hahaha:

 

You may say we obey them through Quran and Sunnah,

Then our Imam. (عليه السلام) said for newly occuring events, refer to narrators of our hadith. For they are hujjah upon you from me just like i am hujjah upon you from Allah. (Kamal ud deen)

This is how he is guiding us.

Else prove Allah or Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are zahir.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, investigating said:

Would you please acting childish by assuming that since the word Imam or Aimmah (nothing in relation to Shia Imams) have appeared 12 times in Qur’an showing that ALLAH appointed 12 individuals among the Progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying the separate station of Imamah greater than status of Prophethood?

Is this show fundamental of article of faith of Islam is established in your Madhab?

The simple question arises why the prophet has mentioned in hadith of 12 Caliphs / Ameers ? Why they are 12?

i find the symetry in the hadith mentioining the count of imams (in sunni ans shia )  after the prophet  as 12 in many hadith just equuivalent to the count of 12 leaders of bani israel ? Why this?

Why does the same symetry quran provides in the verses by mentioning the word imam by 12 times? Why this symetry? Does the quran not ask to ponder over its verses?

Has the principle of guided leaders / imams/ prophets / caliphs selected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not defined in the quran?

Where is the verse of Quran that people can select / appoint a prophet or caliph or imam  after the prophet by themselves for their guidance?

As far as basic principle of faith is concerned the principle of representatives including prophets,  caliphs, imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does exist in verses  of quran and hadith  provide the names of but some one is  keeping  the eyes closed with blind heart to accept this truth.

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, investigating said:

.I have no objection in following the Matn of Hadith however it is deemed unauthentic by Albani 

ولكن الالباني استدرك الحاكم وبين انه ضعيف

 

However, Al-Albani corrected Al-Hakim and stated that it is a "Da'if"[1] Hadith.

قال الالباني - سلسلة الاحاديث الضعيفة (10 - 517):

4892 - (من أطاعني فقد أطاع الله. ومن عصاني فقد عصى الله. ومن أطاع علياً فقد أطاعني. ومن عصى علياً فقد عصاني) .

 

In his "Silsilatul Ahadith Ad-Da'ifah" (10/517), Al-Albani included:

4862 – (Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and Whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Also, whoever obeys Ali, obeys me and whoever disobeys Ali, disobeys me).

ضعيف - أخرجه الحاكم (3/ 121) ، وابن عساكر (12/ 139/ 1) من طرق عن يحيى بن يعلى: حدثنا بسام الصيرفي عن الحسن بن عمرو الفقيمي عن معاوية بن معاوية بن ثعلبة عن أبي ذر مرفوعاً.

 

Is graded as da'if –Al-Hakim (3/121) and ibn Asakir (1/139/12) related it as reported through series of narration; Yahia bin Ali narrated that, Bassam As-Sairafi narrated that Al-Hassan bin Amr Al-Faqimi narrated that, Mu'aweyah bin Mu'aweyah bin Tha'labah narrated that Abi Dhar narrated (that hadith) as Marfu'[2].

وقال الحاكم: "صحيح الإسناد"! ووافقه الذهبي!

Al-Hakim graded its series of narration as "Sahih"! And Adh-Dhahbi concurred with him!

قلت: أنى له الصحة؛ ويحيى بن يعلى - وهو الأسلمي - ضعيف؟! كما جزم به الذهبي في حديث آخر تقدم برقم (892) ، وهو شيعي متفق على تضعيفه كما بينته ثمة. وسائر الرواة ثقات؛ غير معاوية بن ثعلبة؛ لا تعرف عدالته، كما تأتي الإشارة إلى ذلك في الحديث الذي بعده ... الخ

I say: How come?! While Yahia bin Ya'la – Al-Aslami – is Da'if[3] as Ad-Dhahabi previously confirmed in Hadith No. (892)?! He is a [Edited Out]e unanimously deemed a "Da'if" narrator, as I have set forth. From another hand, the rest of the narrators are reliable except Mu'aweyah bin Tha'labah whose virtuousness is unknown as highlighted in the following Hadith ......etc.

 

4892 - (من أطاعني فقد أطاع الله. ومن عصاني فقد عصى الله. ومن أطاع علياً فقد أطاعني. ومن عصى علياً فقد عصاني) .

Al Hakem says hadith is Saheeh.

Al Zahbi says hadith is Saheeh.

and you have also admitted that

"I have no objection in following the Matn of Hadith"

Al Bani says it is Daef.

This is all above the weakness in sunni Rijal system and it is their dilema and thus i am not convinced by the hadith as unauthentic.

This also proves Imam Ali as selected Ameer by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam after him for obeying ( like the 12 ameers / caliphs or imams).. 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, investigating said:

How can you make us believe on the fundamental article of Faith

You believe it or not this is not my concern as i am responsible of my deeds alone but we follow the truth as depicted in the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet saw instead of keeping eyes and heart closed. 

I have presented  all the necessary evidences from the verses of quran and sunni hadith to complete  my part as asked in your last post as given below.

(To prove the latter one we need following explicit evidence from Qur’an:

  • Verses of Qur’an talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.
  • Criteria of salvation to believe in religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.
  • Announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

At least the evidence of first two points are required to prove the religious title and station of "Imam" and "Imamah" respectively in contrast to Prophethood if we take the Shia's doctrine of Imamah into the consideration)

wasalam

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Posted (edited)

 

The Proofs I demanded Has Not Been Supplied Yet!

1. Proof talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.

2. Criteria of salvation to believe in the religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah like below:

Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous." 2:177

Where are the Imams?

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

Where are the Imams?

"O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray."(4:136)

Where are the Imams?

3. Clear announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

At least the evidence of first two points are required to prove the religious title and station of "Imam" and "Imamah" respectively in contrast to Prophethood if we take the Shia's doctrine of Imamah into the consideration)

 

Quote

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said so in the Verse of Mawada, The Kurba, are his Holy family. Again, Mawada is to love and follow.

Your proof doesn’t fulfill the criteria of any of the points mentioned above.

Even though the verse has three different interpretations. Even if it means love for the family of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we make it an obligation to have that in our heart! It is all possible without believing in the divine station of Imamah.

 

Quote
Quote

 

  22 hours ago, investigating said:

2. On what basis you assume that the 12th Ameer mentioned in the Hadith is Imam Mahdi? On what basis you correlated both Hadiths?

 

The Hadith is put in a book called "Kitab al-MAHDI". Come on dude, read what I wrote, you wouldn't have to ask these questions

 

Where does that Hadith say that Mahdi will be the 12th Caliph? I could not find that.

Quote

Salam it's a totally wrong conclusion because living Imam doesn't mean he must be heard or seen by others even at era of 11 Imams before Imam Mahdi (aj) majority of Shias didn't have direct access to them that they were following them even without seeing them or hearing their voice during whole of lifetime that only way for following Imams was hearing news through trustworthy representatives of Imams (Wakils) That  most of times Wakils were just in contact by letters that was sending to them through underground Wikalah network because Imams were under arrest or heavy supervision of tyrant rulers in order cut all ties between Imams & their followers .

  1. Who is the Wakeel today who claims to be in correspondence with your present Imam to lead Muslims?
  2. How on earth can you believe the traditions attributed to your previous Imams through fallible chain are trustworthy without approval of such traditions by your current Infallible Imam?
  3. Why your Fallible Scholars didn’t contact the Wakeel of your present Imam to compile their Hadith Books instead of relying on fallible chain connecting to your 4th of 5th Imam mostly?

 

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Verses mention Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making imams not the people. This is how its known that Imam for people is choosen and made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Just like in case of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), he was granted with both Prophet hood and Imamah. You say, it implies general leadership. Who are you? I say it doesn't. You are nothing bro. So backup explanation of verses with hadiths.

Leadership of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was Prophetic Leadership. The acceptance of Ibrahim (as)'s supplication is the proof of my claim:

And We ordained among his offspring prophethood and the Book (scripture) (29:27)

Allah says in another verse:

We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants PROPHETHOOD AND THE SCRIPTURE. [57:26]

Hence THIS concept of LEADERSHIP is exclusively for those who were given PROPHETHOOD & BOOK among the offspring of Hazrat Ibrahim AS & so likewise this SPECIFIC concept of Prophetic Leadership was also sealed just after our beloved Prophet (saww) departed!

In other verses of Quran like 21:73 you see that those who were from the generation of Ibrahim are referred to as Imams are prophets. (SEE THE VERSES BEFORE 2:173 FOR THE MENTION OF PROPHETS AMONG PROGENY OF IBRAHIM(عليه السلام)

Also Allah making (Ja-alna) someone Imam doesn’t make this status “Divine” like Prophethood. As this term is also used for Allah make Imams of Kufr in Qur’an. We need verses of Qur’an to present Imamah in following way:

  • Proof talking about Allah appointing (wab-a’s) or choosing (wa-j-taba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals carrying religious title of “Imams”.
  • Criteria of salvation to believe in the religious station of “Imamah” in addition to Prophethood & Risaalah.
  • Announcement of the appointment for the exact number of individuals carrying the religious station or title of Imamah among the progeny of the Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (With or WITHOUT their names).

At least the evidence of first two points are required to prove the religious title and station of "Imam" and "Imamah" respectively in contrast to Prophethood if we take the Shia's doctrine of Imamah into the consideration)

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This is fabrication on part of AhlelBayt to believe they had to add “Ulil-Amri-Minkum” at the end of the verse just to prove that the obedience is unconditional.

We find in reliable Shia report that, Imam adds some extra words to the current Quranic verse, as He considers the current verse(4:59) to be incomplete, and then He points that the current verse allows believers to differ with Ulil Amr due to absence of the words which He had to add. So apparently the current verse of Quran(4:59) is so clear and explicit that it destroys the Pillar of Religion of Shia belief from its roots, because as per the current verse of Quran(4:59) we can dispute with Ulil Amr, this is how the Imam understood it the same way. Thus the current verse of Quran(4:59) explicitly destroys Pillar of Religion of Shia belief and proves that Ulil Amr are neither divinely appointed nor infallible.

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And in the next part of Ayah, where did Allah gave you permission to disagree with ulil-Amr? Allah has already imposed un-conditional obedience of Ulil-Amr upon people. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has told you to refer to Allah and Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in case of dis-agreement right? So why not refer to them to know about the meaning of this verse?

If ALLAH didn’t point out the possibility of disagreement while following Ulil-Amr, why did your Imam (Hadith Fabricator) feel a need to add extra words to the verse of Qur’an at the end?

Suppose there are is a classroom in which there are three entities:

1.   Principal / Head Mistress of the Institution

2.   Class Teacher

3.   Prefects among students standing near their seats.

Principal makes an announcement:

O Students! Obey me as your Headmistress; obey your class teacher and PREFECTS among YOU. If you differ in anything, you should refer to me and your class teacher, as this is the best for final determination.

How this announcement makes you feel that prefects are also intrinsic authorities like Principal and teacher?

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Because the hadith mentions un conditional obedience to the leader and obeying him is obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which is mentioned in the same way for Messenger. So it is impossible for some random person other than the one who is divinely appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وتَعَالَى) to be misdaq of this hadith.

To prove a fundamental article of faith, mere deduction of your QIYAS based on a single Hadith is not enough. We need clear evidence proving the station of Imamah as clear as the proof lies for the station of Prophethood in both Qur’an and Hadith.

We don’t deduce DEFINITE RULING based on the apparent verbosity of a single Hadith. We analyze all authentic Hadith of the same nature and deduce the collective ruling while also making sure that it doesn’t contradict with Qur’an. Qur’an as a whole doesn’t allow unconditional obedience to anyone except Allah and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as proven above in our interpretation for 4:59. Hence all Hadith apparently talking about “Obedience” to non-Prophetic Ruler is in a sense of not being rebellious to them to protect the harmony and decorum of the Muslim jamaah. There is no obedience to anyone in terms of direct laws imposed by Allah and his Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (It is well established in other Hadiths and Qur’an as well).

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Such a hadith is nothing but a fabrication that contradicts Quran.

Obedience is only in the matters of administrative affairs and in a sense of not being REBELLIOUS to them in matters that doesn’t affect Shariyah. We’ve ample Hadiths to prove this claim as well. Hence this ruling doesn't contradict Qur'an for us.

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And other versions of two weighty things where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: If you hold fast to Quran and Ahlebait you will never go astray. 

Holding onto Ahl Al-Bayt

The concept of holding onto Ahl Al-Bayt may seem synonymous with Shiasm, yet, the claim sometimes seems like nothing more than a marketing gimmick to reel Sunnis in. According to the Shia understanding of the narration, one is supposed to hold onto the Twelve Imams from Ahl Al-Bayt. However, there is nothing in the narration that limits it to those Twelve. If that was the intended purpose of the Prophet – peace be upon him – , he would have said, “Hold onto the Imams from Ahl Al-Albayt,” or perhaps, “hold onto the twelve from my Ahl Al-Bayt,” instead. Besides, it is not possible for one to follow the Twelve Imams due to their countless contradictions due to taqiyyah.

It should be known that Ahl Al-Sunnah do not believe that notable scholars like Al-Baqir and Al-Sadiq ever practiced taqiyyah, and that they were god-fearing men that would rather die before teaching their followers false rulings.

Keep in mind that we are led to believe that the proper understanding of the narration is to hold onto Ahl Al-Bayt as a whole, instead of limiting Ahl Al-Bayt to a small group.

It should come as no surprise that the Sunnis abide by this teaching.

Not only do Sunnis take knowledge from Ali bin Abi Talib, Al-Hassan, Al-Hussain, Zain Al-Abideen, Al-Baqir, Al-Sadiq, Al-Kathim, etc, but they took knowledge from all the scholars of Ahl Al-Bayt.

Al-Hakim Al-Nisapuri (Ma’rifat Uloom Al-Hadith p. 221) said, “There are authentic narrations from the children of the Prophet – peace be upon him – , from Fatima, Al-Hassan, Al-Husain, Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan bin Ali, Abdullah, Hassan, Ali, and Zayd bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Husain bin Ali, Amr bin Al-Hassan bin Ali, Muhammad bin Amr bin Hassan bin Ali, Al-Hassan bin Zayd bin Hassan bin Ali, Musa bin Abdullah bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan, Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan bin Ali, Ali bin al Husain bin Ali, Fatima bint Al-Husain bin Ali, Muhammad, Abdullah, Zayd, Omar, and Al-Husain bin Ali bin Al-Husain, Jafar bin Muhammad bin Ali, and Al-Hussein bin Zayd bin Ali are those that have authentic narrations, and we have over two hundred narrators from Ahl Al-Bayt both men and women.”

 

Sunnis were also known to have taken knowledge from the scholars of Ahl Al-Bayt that happened to be scholars from the Hanafi  (108 scholars), Maliki (168 scholars), Shafi’ee (200 scholars), and Hanbali (143 scholars) schools of fiqh.

Note: The full list and biographies of these scholars can be obtained in the following works: A’alam Al-Hanafiyyah min Ahl Al-Bayt by Wa’el bin Mohammad Al-Hanbali, A’alam Al-Malikiyya min Ahl Al-Bayt by Rizq Mohammad Abdul-Haleem, A’alam Al-Shafi’eeya min Ahl Al-Bayt by Bassam Abdul-Kareem Al-Hamzawi, and A’alam Al-Hanabila min Ahl Al-Bayt by Mohammad Yusuf Al-Muzaini.

In total, Ahl Al-Sunnah took knowledge from over eight-hundred­ members of Ahl Al-Bayt

Source: https://www.*************/2017/04/29/who-holds-onto-thaqalayn/

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Then our Imam. (عليه السلام) said for newly occuring events, refer to narrators of our hadith. For they are hujjah upon you from me just like i am hujjah upon you from Allah. (Kamal ud deen)

This is how he is guiding us.

 

1. Which narrators of the Hadith your Imam is referring to as being the Hujjah upon Shias? Who narrated this statement from your Imam? 

2. If those fallible narrators can be the Hujjah for you just like your infallible Imam, what’s the use of doctrine of Imamah then? Fallible being Hujjah? 

3. Why disagreeing with Sunnis for considering Muhaajireen o Ansaar who are also praised in Qur’an 9:100 along with their followers to be Hujjah as narrators of Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

 

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I have presented  all the necessary evidences from the verses of quran and sunni hadith to complete  my part as asked in your last post as given below.

  • You haven’t been able to point a single verse or Hadith which implies ALLAH appointing (Wab-as) or choosing (ijtiba) “Non-Prophetic” individuals holding separate station of Imamah (as hold by Shias).
  • Allah or his Rasool command believers to believe in such station like they have commanded numerous time to believe in Nabuwaah, Malaikah, Akhirah etc.
  • Announcement of appointment of 12 individuals with terminology “Wabas” or “Ijtiba” among the progeny of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carrying the religious tile of Imamah.

Here is the snapshot of the proofs you provided:

  • Your proof of 12 Ameer doesn't fullfill not even one of the points I asked as for a proof mentioned above.
  • Hadith of obedience of Imams or Ameer also doesn't fulfiil any of my demand mentioned above. For us it is always conditional based on 4:59 and ample of other proofs of Hadith in relation.
  • Imams of Bani Israel as a whole as you mentioned in your proof doesn't full criteria of Shia Station of Imamah as being conditionally tied to their patience.
  • 5:12 talks about the minor appointment of individuals which normally occurs under the Prophet's supervision. Hence their position as a group head doesn't equate station of Imamah which replaces the position of Prophethood in his absence.

 

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